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 Topic: Are you happier after leaving Islam?

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  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #30 - January 06, 2009, 03:08 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 06, 2009, 02:32 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 06, 2009, 02:00 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on January 06, 2009, 01:14 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 06, 2009, 01:01 PM
    Perhaps I could put this to you Sparky. Do you think it is enough for someone's beliefs to make them happy even though those beliefs are false? Is happiness our goal over and above truth?



    Children are happy with Santa Claus. But does that mean they should never grow up and learn the truth just so that they can remain happy?

    We must acknowledge the fallacy of religion, the history of what motivated those men who concocted them and the division which they breed and grow up and accept the truth.

    Kids may at first be disappointed when they learn the truth about santa but they get over it. Getting over religion and knowing you are not following a lie will eventually lead to greater happiness.

    Frankly, I don't believe you.  That is not my experience of atheists at all.


    I know quite a few miserable Christians too.

    I don't think I made my previous question clear enough Sparky, let me put it differently.

    If someone's beliefs makes them happy - should we try to convince them their beliefs are false if we believe they are?

    I didn't make grand claims about Christianity like AG did about rejecting religion.

    The problem is that you say 'we' and you and I don't come from the same perspective.  In fact, I'm not really sure what perspective you come from at all.

    If I was an atheist (or agnostic), I'd have to say 'no'.  I can't see any reason to convince someone who is happy in their beliefs that their beliefs are false.

    As a Christian, I believe that believing in what is true actually does make you happier because the truth is 'good news'.  Christianity also gives one a fairly long-term view of happiness.  So I would be happy to try to convince someone that their beliefs are false as a step towards helping them to believe in what is true.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #31 - January 06, 2009, 03:10 PM
    Quote from: diotima on January 06, 2009, 02:34 PM
    Roll Eyes - well, if it?s a choice... could you CHOSE to believe, when you didn?t? I don?t mean pretend belief to avoid dire consequences, but actually believe? Then Allah would be right to send you to hell for apostasy.  Roll Eyes (something that was btw absolutely NOT considered alright in christianity for many, many years - but that?s a different debate). The church, btw, only considers unbelief a sin IF it is "willfull"... extremely rare, I should say.



    Yeah, well that's because the church is nice and reasonable as compared to 'the mosque' - I think that's your point really, isn't it Cheesy
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #32 - January 06, 2009, 03:18 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 06, 2009, 03:08 PM

    As a Christian, I believe that believing in what is true actually does make you happier because the truth is 'good news'.


    Only a fool believes their truth to be the only truth. That's the bad news, Samson.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #33 - January 06, 2009, 04:32 PM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on January 06, 2009, 03:18 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 06, 2009, 03:08 PM

    As a Christian, I believe that believing in what is true actually does make you happier because the truth is 'good news'.


    Only a fool believes their truth to be the only truth. That's the bad news, Samson.


    Really?  So would you say that your statement is the only truth on that subject?  Or just 'your' truth?
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #34 - January 06, 2009, 09:38 PM
    i cant classify myself as a real ex-muslim because i still have some part in me that feels like being muslim.

    however, several years ago, I was suffering so much pain because I felt guilty for what I was and for my sins. however, now, I am very confident for the way that I live and feel, i.e. I am happier now  Afro
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #35 - January 06, 2009, 10:26 PM
    I'm definately happier on the intellectual level, but more miserable on the social level.
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
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    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #36 - January 07, 2009, 12:07 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 06, 2009, 10:20 AM
    Quote
    The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.


    Love that quote!  Sometimes the insight of our ancestors, in much less accepting times, really does surprise me.


    I take that back!  I just remembered he also said Islam was the best religion, with the worst followers.

    He may be right on the 2nd part (although I think it may be a chicken or the egg scenario), but the best religion? 

    I thought he was socialist / atheist,  do any bright sparks know the context in which he said it?
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  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #37 - January 07, 2009, 12:47 AM
    Yes, I am infinately happier now that I am no longer a muslim.  I mean of course I feel sadness over the loss of certain things, but I am more free than I have ever been in my mind.

    I get to wade through every moral dilema on my own reasoning, and it can gel with me because it's from me.  Unlike when I was a muslim, and certain moral dilemas already had answers that didn't sit well with me but I was meant to accept if I wanted to go to heaven.  I was so afraid of going to hell sometimes, so afraid of the punishments because like most muslims I sometimes slipped on the rules, did something I shouldn't, thought something I shouldn't, questioned Allah and his wisdom, it was all fear and more fear.

    It took me a long while to get to this place, the amount of things I have had tyo re-evaluate in my mind, the emotional turmoil and guilt, it made me so low for such a long time.  But I can honestly say that of late, especially with the year I have spent here, I feel much much happier and settled about where I am at in life now.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #38 - January 07, 2009, 12:13 PM
    I have never been happier. Gone are the days when my morality constantly conflicted with Islam, when I had to come up with so many excuses to solve these problems but internally they never sat well. I no longer have the fear of hell at the back of my head, no longer have to excuse the PoE, no more excuses for God's actions. I'm finally at rest with the world and fully understand it now. I finally feel peaceful Smiley

    Of course there are the problems with certain family members accepting it but it will happen in time hopefully. If they do not accept it then it is their problem.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #39 - January 07, 2009, 01:44 PM
    That is exactly where I would like to be.  Can you tell me how you have managed to reconcile only being limited to a finite existance (i.e. leading to death ultimately), with yourself?
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  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #40 - January 07, 2009, 01:57 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 07, 2009, 01:44 PM
    That is exactly where I would like to be.  Can you tell me how you have managed to reconcile only being limited to a finite existance (i.e. leading to death ultimately), with yourself?


    Well for myself it's just a case of "tough luck, that's life, so enjoy it whilst you can".  Of course I wish it wasn't the end, maybe it isn't, maybe there is some great journey still to come, but I'm not going to stress myself out about it whilst I am alive, if it is there when I die then bonus  dance .  If not then it really won't matter.

    It isn't easy, it's been 3yrs since I left Islam, but you start getting there eventually.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #41 - January 07, 2009, 02:07 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 07, 2009, 01:44 PM
    That is exactly where I would like to be.  Can you tell me how you have managed to reconcile only being limited to a finite existance (i.e. leading to death ultimately), with yourself?

    I've learnt to accept it. Personally the idea of the Islamic heaven does not intrigue me (the fact that we cease to be human and turn into mindless robots does not put me at peace at all, neither does spending eternity sucking up to God). When we die we die, and we wont care as we are dead so there is really no need to worry. It's the ultimate peace.

    "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."
    - Mark Twain
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #42 - January 07, 2009, 02:14 PM
    Berbs - Did not really want to go into this depressing topic but it is relevent to the question. 

    Your philosophy is a nice one to stand by whilst we are young.  But what happens as we get older, as we are approaching the end of our personal life journey?  When even a zimmer frame cannot help us to walk, or we are sadly struck with a terminal illness.  What are we to think then? 
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  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #43 - January 07, 2009, 02:19 PM
    I agree Persuvian, I like that quote and is similar to something else I have heard before "Dont worry about death, it just like it was before you were born". 

    However, unlike you, I still find am unable to truly accept it. 

    Damn, I really wish there really was a heaven!
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  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #44 - January 07, 2009, 02:19 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 07, 2009, 02:14 PM
    Berbs - Did not really want to go into this depressing topic but it is relevent to the question. 

    Your philosophy is a nice one to stand by whilst we are young.  But what happens as we get older, as we are approaching the end of our personal life journey?  When even a zimmer frame cannot help us to walk, or we are sadly struck with a terminal illness.  What are we to think then? 


    "I'm glad I lived such a full life"? Just be thankful for the time you had.

    What else are you supposed to think?

    According to the hadiths mohammed was terrified when he was dying, he kept pleading for allahs forgiveness and a place in heaven, doesn't seem like his religion gave him much peace at the end does it?

    Sometimes there are things that just are, and we must learn to accept them instead of creating fairy tales to console us.  Smiley
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #45 - January 07, 2009, 02:32 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 07, 2009, 02:19 PM
    I agree Persuvian, I like that quote and is similar to something else I have heard before "Dont worry about death, it just like it was before you were born". 

    However, unlike you, I still find am unable to truly accept it. 

    Damn, I really wish there really was a heaven!

    It is not easy but death is an inevitable consequence of life. It's a fact that we need to learn to live with.

    In all fairness the in the Islamic version of heaven you are dead anyway. Your nature changes and God controls what you can and cannot feel. This is not you. You have lost your freewill, the very thing that makes you human. In essence you are dead. All that remains is a mindless robot replica with your memories living out a robotic life shagging some robot whores for eternity. Does this sound like bliss to anyone?

    I'm not sure how many people have thought about heaven properly. Even the general concept of it is absurd. You live for eternity in bliss but surely this will get boring very fast? On earth we all complain about the PoE but it keeps life interesting. People crave conflict. In heaven you have none of this. Only people who are ALWAYS happy and talking about of how fluffy the clouds are. That would drive me mad...

    At least in death you will have eternal peace that no one can affect or destroy.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #46 - January 07, 2009, 02:35 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on January 07, 2009, 02:32 PM

    I'm not sure how many people have thought about heaven properly. Even the general concept of it is absurd. You live for eternity in bliss but surely this will get boring very fast? On earth we all complain about the PoE but it keeps life interesting. People crave conflict. In heaven you have none of this. Only people who are ALWAYS happy and talking about of how fluffy the clouds are. That would drive me mad...


    Oh snap, I used to agonise over this all the time as a muslim, people would say "You drink from rivers of wine and honey, you fancy an apple and it appears, you are in bliss etc etc yada yada" and I would always without fail say "AND THEN WHAT" lol because eventually it sounds like it could get boring.  This would be yet another moment for me to be remined that when I get to heaven those things won;t matter to me anymore because I will be changed, and just a robot.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #47 - January 07, 2009, 02:46 PM
    i thought, "maybe we will just be happy and satisfied? like a state of nirvana or something. this language of food and sex describes what we can't comprehend." but then i went back to the orthodox idea, then i dropped it. *shrug*
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #48 - January 07, 2009, 02:53 PM
    Quote from: awais on January 07, 2009, 02:46 PM
    i thought, "maybe we will just be happy and satisfied? like a state of nirvana or something. this language of food and sex describes what we can't comprehend." but then i went back to the orthodox idea, then i dropped it. *shrug*

    It sounds like a state of nirvana that is programmed into you, that's the problem.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #49 - January 07, 2009, 03:11 PM
    Funny I was just thinking the same thing, how ever more bizarre the notion of heaven seems. 

    Isn't happiness relative anyway?

    If everyone had everything they wanted, (although this is not possible, as some things are mutually exclusive) then how could they remain happy thereafter. Wouldn't they just get bored there?  An essential part of fulfilment and happiness, is the strive towards it and the sense of achievment you feel if you get there.  Reminds me of some rich kids born into millions, finding all sort of innovative ways to reduce their boredom and depression.

    Where is heaven supposed to be anyway?  According to Islam, is it supposed to be a physical or a transcendental state?
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  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #50 - January 07, 2009, 03:29 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 07, 2009, 03:11 PM
    Funny I was just thinking the same thing, how ever more bizarre the notion of heaven seems. 

    Isn't happiness relative anyway?

    If everyone had everything they wanted, (although this is not possible, as some things are mutually exclusive) then how could they remain happy thereafter. Wouldn't they just get bored there?  An essential part of fulfilment and happiness, is the strive towards it and the sense of achievment you feel if you get there.  Reminds me of some rich kids born into millions, finding all sort of innovative ways to reduce their boredom and depression.

    Where is heaven supposed to be anyway?  According to Islam, is it supposed to be a physical or a transcendental state?

    True, but I don't see the point of Allah creating us and then changing our nature just so we can feel happy. Is our current nature unable to feel happy? Is God too lazy to make our current selves happy so instead he went for the easy option?

    One of the answers to the PoE is that you cannot appreciate the good without the bad but this seems to contradict heaven :S

    I don't know what heaven is supposed to be or what the point of it even is. It sounds like God just wanted to watch a massive orgy...

    But seriously, what is the point of any of this? God makes life feel so much more worthless.

    Sorry, this probably isn't helping with your problems with death Tongue
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #51 - January 07, 2009, 04:51 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 07, 2009, 01:44 PM
    That is exactly where I would like to be.  Can you tell me how you have managed to reconcile only being limited to a finite existance (i.e. leading to death ultimately), with yourself?


    I am not certain there is nothing after death.

    It is true that I find the thought that there is nothing after death and that our life here has no higher meaning apart from the meaning we humans give it, somewhat disappointing and unsatisfying. So obviously the thought that there is something after death is comforting.

    But I don't think that alone compels me to believe there is something. I just cannot look at the world and not be filled with a feeling that there is something more.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #52 - January 07, 2009, 04:58 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 07, 2009, 04:51 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 07, 2009, 01:44 PM


    But I don't think that alone compels me to believe there is something. I just cannot look at the world and not be filled with a feeling that there is something more.

    Can you give a few examples, in your understanding, of the type of thing this could be?
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  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #53 - January 07, 2009, 05:18 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 07, 2009, 04:58 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 07, 2009, 04:51 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 07, 2009, 01:44 PM


    But I don't think that alone compels me to believe there is something. I just cannot look at the world and not be filled with a feeling that there is something more.

    Can you give a few examples, in your understanding, of the type of thing this could be?


    I know Dawkins will say it is the "God of gaps" (btw I loved his book), but the existence of the physical world - and our own existence - poses a huge question that cannot be answered.

    Perhaps Dawkins is right, and that just because we don't know an answer, we shouldn't jump to a supernatural answer - and science may indeed one day explain it all - but until it does it bothers me.

    Again I know that when people say that something must have started/created the whole evolutionary process - the question is; What started/created the creator?

    Indeed - another question I can't answer - but that still leaves me with the feeling that there is an answer that is so unimaginably beyond our understanding and so far outside our knowledge it is futile trying to articulate it. Which is why I reject all religions, but cannot reject that there is 'something' that I can't explain.

    Did all that make sense? lol
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #54 - January 07, 2009, 05:21 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 07, 2009, 05:18 PM


    I know Dawkins will say it is the "God of gaps" (btw I loved his book), but the existence of the physical world - and our own existence - poses a huge question that cannot be answered.

    Perhaps Dawkins is right, and that just because we don't know an answer, we shouldn't jump to a supernatural answer - and science may indeed one day explain it all - but until it does it bothers me.

    Again I know that when people say that something must have started/created the whole evolutionary process - the question is; What started/created the creator?

    Indeed - another question I can't answer - but that still leaves me with the feeling that there is an answer that is so unimaginably beyond our understanding and so far outside our knowledge it is futile trying to articulate it. Which is why I reject all religions, but cannot reject that there is 'something' that I can't explain.

    Did all that make sense? lol



    But why must we have an answer?  why must there be a reason?  couldn't it be just as fine to know we are here for no reason, we are just here?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #55 - January 07, 2009, 05:25 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on January 07, 2009, 05:21 PM
    But why must we have an answer?  why must there be a reason?  couldn't it be just as fine to know we are here for no reason, we are just here?


    You're right, Berbs - we don't have to know the answer.

    But it niggles me lol
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #56 - January 07, 2009, 11:06 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 07, 2009, 05:25 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on January 07, 2009, 05:21 PM
    But why must we have an answer?  why must there be a reason?  couldn't it be just as fine to know we are here for no reason, we are just here?


    But it niggles me lol


    hehehe. I like your word.  piggy
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #57 - January 08, 2009, 12:38 AM
    It makes total sense to me, that's why I believe in agnosticism, over & above atheism.  Until science comes up with something, we can only realistically remain in limbo on all such questions.   

    So how does it follow that you get the feeling there must be something hereafter?
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  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #58 - January 08, 2009, 01:39 AM
    I've always wondered about stuff like this, even when I used to follow Islam. Why would living forever be any more rewarding than living a specific number of years on earth? Simply because you're in heaven? It still doesn't inherently provide any MEANING to life - you just end up deferring seeking the meaning and blindly believe that it will all somehow be made clear in the afterlife. Ridiculous.
    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #59 - January 17, 2009, 11:31 AM
    yes,yes,yes,.
    and iam happy and everything is halaal for me.
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