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 Topic: Are you happier after leaving Islam?

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  • Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     OP - January 05, 2009, 10:10 PM
    Quote from: pakman on January 05, 2009, 04:55 PM
    I still haven't tried pork nor do I intend too.

    Does leaving Islam make you happier or sadder?


    Thats a really good question! I still havent figured out the answer.
    Ultimately, does it matter? to quote george bernard shaw:
    Quote
    The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.


    Pakman if its okay I'm going to split this off and start a new thread because I'm really interested in what the rest of you think.
    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #1 - January 05, 2009, 10:17 PM
    Yes and no.

    Yes as don't worry  about ludicrous rituals and what "allah" will think.

    No because I'm still otherwise have not "come out" to my family. Most worried about my religious wife and her family.
    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #2 - January 05, 2009, 10:21 PM
    Islam never gave me the comfort and reassurance that it does other people so, in that sense I don't have the "emptiness" that some other apostates talk about.
    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #3 - January 05, 2009, 10:29 PM
    Yes and No also.

    I am far happier making up my own mind about things rather than having to square everything with Qur'an and Sunna.

    I have lost my comfort pillow.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #4 - January 05, 2009, 10:49 PM
    I would say I'm much happier as I don't have to worry about all the rituals etc...

    Like Humanoid I never 'got into' Islam and so never had a comfort factor - I found it extremely restrictive and with too many fairy tales that just did not match th ereality I saw around me...  with all that removed I'm more content with my lot.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #5 - January 05, 2009, 10:57 PM
    YES.

    Initially, I felt betrayed, angry and stressed but I got over that pretty quickly. I've been more relaxed and confident because I'm not going to be burnt by Allah. And then there's the parent issue, which hasn't contributed to my happiness one bit... 

    I never found Islam to be comfortable, quite the contrary but if you mean the family part, then yeah, I'll miss that.
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #6 - January 05, 2009, 11:18 PM
    I'm far more self confident now than when I was a Muslim. Leaving Islam has forced me to rely on my OWN capabilities to figure out life. So in that regard, I'm very happy.

    However, I do miss Eid.
    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #7 - January 06, 2009, 01:07 AM
    I'm not an ex Muslim so I can't say for sure but I think the community aspect, camaraderie, and feeling that there might be paradise after death because your in the special club could be quite a security blanket to lose. 

    Superficially I think for my peers who have either converted or just gone deeply into Islam it is the whole warrior jihad thing.

    They are not jihadis but they respect the idea of the warrior ethic who fights for justice and does not fear death, They like feeling like they are a part of this. Pious and wise warriors. Islam has given some of my more ragga friends a sense of meaning and sacredness to their life but they still get to hold on to the "Don't fuck with me or my crew" attitude.

    This is very appealing to many young men who feel insignificant and disenfranchised by society but respect violence, Islam supplies them with significance and sanctifies the tough guy shit.

    Also I think all the grand sounding Arabic sayings, the special greetings that other people don't understand and distinguishing clothes the constant reference to other Muslims as my brother or sister adds a sense of security and sets Muslims apart. Also I think the brother and sister thing gives a sense of the togetherness through victimisation that black Americans had.

    For someone who is insecure in their identity these must be terrible things to lose because they must prop up the ego in so many ways.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #8 - January 06, 2009, 09:42 AM
    Quote from: Iris
    Ultimately, does it matter? to quote george bernard shaw:
    Quote
    The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.



    Which sounds like the advice of a grumpy old man who doesn't want anyone else to have any fun.

    Why should rationality matter more than happiness?
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #9 - January 06, 2009, 09:48 AM
    Why not?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #10 - January 06, 2009, 10:20 AM
    Quote
    The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.


    Love that quote!  Sometimes the insight of our ancestors, in much less accepting times, really does surprise me.

    Its true, its an interesting yet irrelevent question because it is impossible to make yourself believe in something that you don't, just because it makes you happier. 

    I would love to believe that next year I will win the lottery, and so I never have to work again and so jack it all in.  Believing in this unlikely scenario will certainly make me happier, but have immediate and long term consequences.

    In response to the original question, the emptiness & finality of death still upsets me a great deal, but I enjoy life made by my own rules, and without the guilt of not having prayed, read the quran, been to the mosque, or being bored with yet another religious sermon. Overall I think I am happier.
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #11 - January 06, 2009, 11:19 AM
    Quote from: sparky on January 06, 2009, 09:42 AM
    Quote from: Iris
    Ultimately, does it matter? to quote george bernard shaw:
    Quote
    The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.



    Which sounds like the advice of a grumpy old man who doesn't want anyone else to have any fun.

    Why should rationality matter more than happiness?


    I do certainly recognize the happiness, comfort and solace that religion can offer - the sense of community and belonging.

    But one can't choose/pretend to believe simply to get those things.

    Whether rationality matters more than happiness or not, is actually irrelevant.

  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #12 - January 06, 2009, 11:37 AM
    Quote

    For someone who is insecure in their identity these must be terrible things to lose because they must prop up the ego in so many ways.



    I agree.

    It must be like crashing back down to earth for a lot of the youth you've outlined when they leave Islam.

    But I'm sure they'll get over and pick themselves up like we all have to at some points in our lives.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #13 - January 06, 2009, 11:56 AM
    Life will always have its ups and downs. Sometimes happy sometimes sad.

    With religion I found I had a comfort blanket with others there to help. In good times I thanked Allah for the benedictions. In bad times I saw it as a test of faith and Allah wanting to make me stronger. I the bad turned out favourable I saw its as Allah's blessings. If not I saw it as Allah saying I'm not yet ready for whatever but better things are planned for the future if I keep up the faith.

    Now, rightly or wrongly I've concluded that such beliefs are just a charade. And I'm prepared to tackle life and its obstacles head on rationally and with the support of friends.

    Now not relying on a supernatural being and getting things resolved is much more satisfying. I also know I'm not doing good just to please god, just to get to paradise.

    Its more than being happy, its feeling liberated.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #14 - January 06, 2009, 12:10 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 06, 2009, 11:19 AM
    Quote from: sparky on January 06, 2009, 09:42 AM
    Quote from: Iris
    Ultimately, does it matter? to quote george bernard shaw:
    Quote
    The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.



    Which sounds like the advice of a grumpy old man who doesn't want anyone else to have any fun.

    Why should rationality matter more than happiness?


    I do certainly recognize the happiness, comfort and solace that religion can offer - the sense of community and belonging.

    But one can't choose/pretend to believe simply to get those things.

    Whether rationality matters more than happiness or not, is actually irrelevant.

    Which would make the quote irrelevant rather than true.

    It's a contradiction to say that you can believe in things that you don't believe in.  I don't think that is what Bernard Shaw is getting at.  He is talking about believing in things that you can't necessarily prove but you don't know to be false.  To me this is what 'credulity' is.  He is contrasting this with the position of the skeptic who only believes things that can be 'proved' or have sufficient evidence.  By saying that it is better to take a skeptical position rather than a 'credulous' one - even though it makes you happy - he is placing the value of rationality above the value of happiness.  But this assertion itself needs to be subjected to the question of evidence.  If it can't be shown that there is evidence to say that rationality is of more value than happiness then the advice becomes useless.  The position of a person who happily believes that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden is no 'worse' than the person who grumpily doesn't believe in them.

    To make it a bit more relevant.

    Suppose you are a muslim and are happy with the comfort, purpose, morality etc, that such a set of beliefs give.  Someone shows you evidence that a contradiction exists in what you believe such that it appears that Islam is not true.  Given that all of us have incomplete understanding and imperfect knowledge, a person might well choose to remain a muslim in the hope that at some time some new knowledge will appear that will reconcile the contradiction rather than face the unhappiness that would result from apostacy.

    I.e. they choose credulity over skepticism and I don't see how a skeptic can blame them for doing so.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #15 - January 06, 2009, 12:15 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on January 06, 2009, 09:48 AM
    Why not?

    I didn't say one way or the other.  Until demonstrated otherwise, I don't see why either should matter.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #16 - January 06, 2009, 01:01 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 06, 2009, 12:10 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 06, 2009, 11:19 AM
    Quote from: sparky on January 06, 2009, 09:42 AM
    Quote from: Iris
    Ultimately, does it matter? to quote george bernard shaw:
    Quote
    The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.



    Which sounds like the advice of a grumpy old man who doesn't want anyone else to have any fun.

    Why should rationality matter more than happiness?


    I do certainly recognize the happiness, comfort and solace that religion can offer - the sense of community and belonging.

    But one can't choose/pretend to believe simply to get those things.

    Whether rationality matters more than happiness or not, is actually irrelevant.

    Which would make the quote irrelevant rather than true.



    I think George B Shaw is saying a similar thing as I just said. That whether religion makes one happy or not is irrelevant (he said; no more to the point).

    Perhaps I could put this to you Sparky. Do you think it is enough for someone's beliefs to make them happy even though those beliefs are false? Is happiness our goal over and above truth?
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #17 - January 06, 2009, 01:14 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 06, 2009, 01:01 PM
    Perhaps I could put this to you Sparky. Do you think it is enough for someone's beliefs to make them happy even though those beliefs are false? Is happiness our goal over and above truth?



    Children are happy with Santa Claus. But does that mean they should never grow up and learn the truth just so that they can remain happy?

    We must acknowledge the fallacy of religion, the history of what motivated those men who concocted them and the division which they breed and grow up and accept the truth.

    Kids may at first be disappointed when they learn the truth about santa but they get over it. Getting over religion and knowing you are not following a lie will eventually lead to greater happiness.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #18 - January 06, 2009, 01:21 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on January 06, 2009, 01:14 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 06, 2009, 01:01 PM
    Perhaps I could put this to you Sparky. Do you think it is enough for someone's beliefs to make them happy even though those beliefs are false? Is happiness our goal over and above truth?



    Children are happy with Santa Claus. But does that mean they should never grow up and learn the truth just so that they can remain happy?

    We must acknowledge the fallacy of religion, the history of what motivated those men who concocted them and the division which they breed and grow up and accept the truth.

    Kids may at first be disappointed when they learn the truth about santa but they get over it. Getting over religion and knowing you are not following a lie will eventually lead to greater happiness.



    I don't think the answer is that simple.

    I have been told by some Muslims: "What right do I have to take others happiness and comfort away from them?"

    Since most believers of whatever religion are perfectly peaceful and good people why should I upset that and possibly make them miserable.

    To be honest leaving Islam is no bed of roses.

    why should I go on a mission to make them miserable.

    For those who are happy without the security blanket religion provides - that's fine. But there are many character types who need such a comfort/security in their lives.

    It does indeed make them happier.

    I don't know.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #19 - January 06, 2009, 01:35 PM
    No I'm not happy because I'm living a double life. I have to act up to my parent's expectations and need for me to be a Muslim girl, because I'm too much of a coward, yet, to admit my apostacy.

    My other life, however, the non-believer one, is a very happy life.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #20 - January 06, 2009, 01:52 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 06, 2009, 01:21 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on January 06, 2009, 01:14 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 06, 2009, 01:01 PM
    Perhaps I could put this to you Sparky. Do you think it is enough for someone's beliefs to make them happy even though those beliefs are false? Is happiness our goal over and above truth?



    Children are happy with Santa Claus. But does that mean they should never grow up and learn the truth just so that they can remain happy?

    We must acknowledge the fallacy of religion, the history of what motivated those men who concocted them and the division which they breed and grow up and accept the truth.

    Kids may at first be disappointed when they learn the truth about santa but they get over it. Getting over religion and knowing you are not following a lie will eventually lead to greater happiness.



    I don't think the answer is that simple.

    I have been told by some Muslims: "What right do I have to take others happiness and comfort away from them?"

    Since most believers of whatever religion are perfectly peaceful and good people why should I upset that and possibly make them miserable.

    To be honest leaving Islam is no bed of roses.

    why should I go on a mission to make them miserable.

    For those who are happy without the security blanket religion provides - that's fine. But there are many character types who need such a comfort/security in their lives.

    It does indeed make them happier.

    I don't know.

    Hi Hassan,
    I do think its that simple.  There will be a lot of disappointment to begin with but this will subside. 
    I believe the reason you 'need' the comfort and security blanket is because you were indoctrinated with this view from a young age.  As I have mentioned before - you are going through symptoms which I believe are similar to withdrawn symptoms - its just a matter of time.
    What needs to happen is that young children should not be indoctrinated.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #21 - January 06, 2009, 01:56 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 06, 2009, 01:01 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 06, 2009, 12:10 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 06, 2009, 11:19 AM
    Quote from: sparky on January 06, 2009, 09:42 AM
    Quote from: Iris
    Ultimately, does it matter? to quote george bernard shaw:
    Quote
    The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.



    Which sounds like the advice of a grumpy old man who doesn't want anyone else to have any fun.

    Why should rationality matter more than happiness?


    I do certainly recognize the happiness, comfort and solace that religion can offer - the sense of community and belonging.

    But one can't choose/pretend to believe simply to get those things.

    Whether rationality matters more than happiness or not, is actually irrelevant.

    Which would make the quote irrelevant rather than true.



    I think George B Shaw is saying a similar thing as I just said. That whether religion makes one happy or not is irrelevant (he said; no more to the point).


    In which he is assuming that 'the point' (purpose/goal) is what is true (from a skeptic's perspective).  He then elevates his own goal by diminishing the other (cheap, dangerous, drunken).  But his own goal is purely a matter of preference (as are all values to an atheist) and therefore there is nothing 'true' about his statement at all.
    Quote from: Hassan
    Perhaps I could put this to you Sparky. Do you think it is enough for someone's beliefs to make them happy even though those beliefs are false? Is happiness our goal over and above truth?


    If atheism is true, it would indeed be 'enough' for someone's beliefs to make them happy even though they are false.  Because there is no 'goal' in absolute terms to talk about and a ranking of goals is just down to whatever you prefer.

    As a Christian, though, I have found that what is true also makes me incredible happy!  grin12
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #22 - January 06, 2009, 02:00 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on January 06, 2009, 01:14 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 06, 2009, 01:01 PM
    Perhaps I could put this to you Sparky. Do you think it is enough for someone's beliefs to make them happy even though those beliefs are false? Is happiness our goal over and above truth?



    Children are happy with Santa Claus. But does that mean they should never grow up and learn the truth just so that they can remain happy?

    We must acknowledge the fallacy of religion, the history of what motivated those men who concocted them and the division which they breed and grow up and accept the truth.

    Kids may at first be disappointed when they learn the truth about santa but they get over it. Getting over religion and knowing you are not following a lie will eventually lead to greater happiness.

    Frankly, I don't believe you.  That is not my experience of atheists at all.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #23 - January 06, 2009, 02:05 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 06, 2009, 02:00 PM
    Frankly, I don't believe you.  That is not my experience of atheists at all.


    What don't you believe, that a person can be happier after leaving religion?
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #24 - January 06, 2009, 02:09 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 06, 2009, 02:00 PM
    Frankly, I don't believe you.  That is not my experience of atheists at all.

    And why do you not believe him?  And is your experience of atheist of any relevance to anything at all? bunny
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #25 - January 06, 2009, 02:10 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on January 06, 2009, 02:05 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 06, 2009, 02:00 PM
    Frankly, I don't believe you.  That is not my experience of atheists at all.


    What don't you believe, that a person can be happier after leaving religion?

    You said 'will'.  I don't see that it is inevitable at all.

    Note that I am not talking about a muslim who has already found problems with Islamic beliefs and is questioning whether to leave or not, but to a person who is blissfully ignorant of problems with Islam and comparing them to the average atheist.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #26 - January 06, 2009, 02:20 PM
    Faith is not a matter of choice - and neither is lack of faith.
    We don?t consciously chose any "blanket of security" (nice, non-condescending thought there...) and for many people of faith, that "blanket of security" is the least important aspect of their faith. Atheists can not prove their worldview, just as "faithheads" cannot prove theirs. Faith or lack of faith as such don?t show someone to be stupid or intelligent - was the devout Christian Isaac Newton a dumbo? Is Sundried Atheist a nobel candidate?  Roll Eyes (quite apart the fact, that intelligence has many aspects - maths and science and the cognitive abilities required by them are only one facet... just like reality cannot convincingly be reduced to them, either).

    Oh, and btw - "non-faith" can be just as much a "comfort blanket" as faith can be quite an uncomfortable cover...(apparently, Mother Theresa suffered spiritually over her doubts and "darkness of the soul" for many years...) -  It?s all a matter of how you turn things around in your mind.
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #27 - January 06, 2009, 02:32 PM
    Quote from: diotima on January 06, 2009, 02:20 PM
    Faith is not a matter of choice - and neither is lack of faith.
    We don?t consciously chose any "blanket of security" (nice, non-condescending thought there...) and for many people of faith, that "blanket of security" is the least important aspect of their faith. Atheists can not prove their worldview, just as "faithheads" cannot prove theirs. Faith or lack of faith as such don?t show someone to be stupid or intelligent - was the devout Christian Isaac Newton a dumbo? Is Sundried Atheist a nobel candidate?  Roll Eyes (quite apart the fact, that intelligence has many aspects - maths and science and the cognitive abilities required by them are only one facet... just like reality cannot convincingly be reduced to them, either).

    Oh, and btw - "non-faith" can be just as much a "comfort blanket" as faith can be quite an uncomfortable cover...(apparently, Mother Theresa suffered spiritually over her doubts and "darkness of the soul" for many years...) -  It?s all a matter of how you turn things around in your mind.

    Of course it is a choice!
    It may be a hard choice for those people who have been indoctrinated in that way of thinking from a very early age, but its still a choice!
    Isaac Newton was a Christian because he was indoctrinated and because you christian at the time made sure any atheist were hanged or burnt!
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #28 - January 06, 2009, 02:32 PM
    Quote from: sparky on January 06, 2009, 02:00 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on January 06, 2009, 01:14 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 06, 2009, 01:01 PM
    Perhaps I could put this to you Sparky. Do you think it is enough for someone's beliefs to make them happy even though those beliefs are false? Is happiness our goal over and above truth?



    Children are happy with Santa Claus. But does that mean they should never grow up and learn the truth just so that they can remain happy?

    We must acknowledge the fallacy of religion, the history of what motivated those men who concocted them and the division which they breed and grow up and accept the truth.

    Kids may at first be disappointed when they learn the truth about santa but they get over it. Getting over religion and knowing you are not following a lie will eventually lead to greater happiness.

    Frankly, I don't believe you.  That is not my experience of atheists at all.


    I know quite a few miserable Christians too.

    I don't think I made my previous question clear enough Sparky, let me put it differently.

    If someone's beliefs makes them happy - should we try to convince them their beliefs are false if we believe they are?
  • Re: Are you happier after leaving Islam?
     Reply #29 - January 06, 2009, 02:34 PM
     Roll Eyes - well, if it?s a choice... could you CHOSE to believe, when you didn?t? I don?t mean pretend belief to avoid dire consequences, but actually believe? Then Allah would be right to send you to hell for apostasy.  Roll Eyes (something that was btw absolutely NOT considered alright in christianity for many, many years - but that?s a different debate). The church, btw, only considers unbelief a sin IF it is "willfull"... extremely rare, I should say.
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