Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher

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- Iggy
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #30 - January 05, 2009, 07:41 AM

Quote from: Baal on January 05, 2009, 03:00 AM
But I do not know if a guardian has to approve the marriage of a girl.

A male guardian/father/brother/uncle etc. Marriage is not considered Islamically legitimate without this consent.

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- BerberElla
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #31 - January 05, 2009, 07:52 AM

Quote from: Iggy on January 05, 2009, 07:41 AM
Quote from: Baal on January 05, 2009, 03:00 AM
But I do not know if a guardian has to approve the marriage of a girl.

A male guardian/father/brother/uncle etc. Marriage is not considered Islamically legitimate without this consent.

Which Baal knows but is choosing to play ignorance in order to try to maintain that Islam was the main thing to blame in this story.

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #32 - January 05, 2009, 07:56 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on January 05, 2009, 07:26 AM
Quote from: Baal on January 05, 2009, 03:00 AM
Quote from: BerberElla on January 03, 2009, 08:30 AM
Which you already know IS required, so why the twisty windy long road of cloudy insinuating words? you already know that based on that, it ceases to be the prophets tradtion.

Sorry. I do not know if the approval of a guardian is required or not.

The one reality that I picked from learning the koran, is to always question the koran to check if it complies with norms. So many common sense thing I used to think the writer of the koran shared with me, only to find later that the writer of the koran was from a much different century then me.

I have strong reasons to believe that the approval of a guardian is not required.

I know that a guardian can give away a girl without her approval according to hadith and a twisted interpretation of the koran. (If a girl is kept outside the room where the marriage occur).

But I do not know if a guardian has to approve the marriage of a girl.

Btw, This man did not commit intercourse with the girls, he was not accused of that. As far as I am concerned it was all thighing and feeting.

Present your strong reasoning then.

My strong reasoning so far is that I can not find yet the part where a guardian of a muslim girl has to be present in giving consent. Keep asking me to prove a negative some more.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #33 - January 05, 2009, 07:57 AM

Quote from: Iggy on January 05, 2009, 07:41 AM
Quote from: Baal on January 05, 2009, 03:00 AM
But I do not know if a guardian has to approve the marriage of a girl.

A male guardian/father/brother/uncle etc. Marriage is not considered Islamically legitimate without this consent.

I want the islamic justification Iggy. I am still looking for it.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #34 - January 05, 2009, 08:03 AM

Quote from: Baal on January 05, 2009, 07:56 AM

My strong reasoning so far is that I can not find yet the part where a guardian of a muslim girl has to be present in giving consent. Keep asking me to prove a negative some more.

You mean like this:

Quote
Book 11, Number 2080:

Narrated AbuMusa:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no marriage without the permission of a guardian.

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #35 - January 05, 2009, 08:06 AM

Ah so basically what you are implying is that he gave permission without being there? no really surprised that you are trying to find an even more twisted interpretation of what happened, a way to tie it in neatly with Islam and not just the sick mind of one guy.

When the story of the 9yr old girl in afghan was married off, or the 8yr old girl in saudi trying to get divorced, ISLAM is to blame, but this time, I can not for the life of me see how you can try to blame islam, unless you are completely irrational to the facts.

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #36 - January 05, 2009, 08:51 AM

Thanx for the hadith, I am tracking it down.

Quote from: BerberElla on January 05, 2009, 08:06 AM
Ah so basically what you are implying is that he gave permission without being there?

No I am not. I only meant a guardian can give consent if the girl is not there. Which does not apply to our bearded mosque bunny.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #37 - January 05, 2009, 09:38 AM

Right, so why the hell did you claim that "mosque bunny" had married the girls in question?
You made that claim and then refused to back it up when called on it. Right here:

Quote from: Baal on January 03, 2009, 03:30 AM
Just playing the devil's advocate. Is what the imam did really against islam:

The imam claims he married them, so how did that work:

* He got them to say yes? Easy, or used their silence as a sign of acceptance.
* He paid a dowry? Sure he paid a dowry.
* Did he get permission from the parents? He surely did not.

The question is, did the perv need the acceptance of the parents?

Also you did not mean that the guardian can give consent if the girl is not there. Your own words, which thanks to our post locking policy cannot be edited by you, prove you are bullshitting. You were trying to make out that maybe an Islamic marriage could be made without the consent of a guardian. Right here:

Quote from: Baal on January 05, 2009, 03:00 AM
I have strong reasons to believe that the approval of a guardian is not required.

Now you have completely changed your tune. Too bad it's all on record. Nice try.

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #38 - January 05, 2009, 11:11 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on January 05, 2009, 09:38 AM
Right, so why the hell did you claim that "mosque bunny" had married the girls in question?
You made that claim and then refused to back it up when called on it. Right here:

Quote from: Baal on January 03, 2009, 03:30 AM
Just playing the devil's advocate. Is what the imam did really against islam:

The imam claims he married them, so how did that work:

* He got them to say yes? Easy, or used their silence as a sign of acceptance.
* He paid a dowry? Sure he paid a dowry.
* Did he get permission from the parents? He surely did not.

The question is, did the perv need the acceptance of the parents?

Also you did not mean that the guardian can give consent if the girl is not there. Your own words, which thanks to our post locking policy cannot be edited by you, prove you are bullshitting. You were trying to make out that maybe an Islamic marriage could be made without the consent of a guardian. Right here:

What are you on Os? You are stating Two different points. I am going to clarify each point and ask you to apologize for the strong language (locking, bullshitting, etc.) you used once you come to understand what you just said.

Yes, I claimed that a Guardian can give consent if the girl is not present. I also followed stating that this is *not* the case for our mosque bunny.

And yes I made it extremely clear that my entire accusation, is hinging on whether the imam can marry the girl without a guardian present.

Here again using different language:

Point One: Girl present. Guardian not present. Which is the case in the mosque. I made it extremely clear that I am still looking for an answer.

Point Two: Girl not present. Guardian present. Which I claimed is possible in islam but I also stated is *not* the case in the mosque.

Again, confirm with Berbs because I think you skipped some of the posts, and frankly I do not know if you are posting as a normal poster or as a mod. So take it up with her and I expect a mod apology. So if you do not mind, I am going to shine my ass before I goto sleep

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #39 - January 05, 2009, 11:21 AM

No chance of an apology, sunshine. I quoted you and I've been reading the posts. You were trying to claim that a girl could be married off in a proper Islamic marriage without the approval of her guardian.

Now you are trying to claim that "approval"and "presence" are the same thing when they obviously are not.

ETA: Oh and by the way, "locking" is not strong language.

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #40 - January 05, 2009, 03:30 PM

Insinuating that locking somehow protected the integrity of this thread from me is a very strong language.

Here is the posts I made:

In Reply #26:
1st line: i state I have strong reasons to believe a guardian is not required.
2nd line: i state a parallel condition that clearly does not apply to the mosque event.
3rd line: I *confirm* that 'I do not know if a guardian has to approve'.
Quote
I have strong reasons to believe that the approval of a guardian is not required.

I know that a guardian can give away a girl without her approval according to hadith and a twisted interpretation of the koran. (If a girl is kept outside the room where the marriage occur).

But I do not know if a guardian has to approve the marriage of a girl.

I am still looking for a guardian's approval: reply 32
Quote
My strong reasoning so far is that I can not find yet the part where a guardian of a muslim girl has to be present in giving consent. Keep asking me to prove a negative some more.

I am still looking for the approval of the guardian: reply 33
Quote
I want the islamic justification Iggy. I am still looking for it.

In reply 34, Berberella finds the islamic justification and gives me a hadith. Thank you Berbs.

In reply 35: Berberella makes an assumption/question that I might be implying that a guardian gave permission without being there. I do not know from which reply she formulated that assumption from. Myself, I was very surprised when I read it.
Quote
surprised that you are trying to find an even more twisted interpretation

In reply 36: I clarify my position to Berbs, I am still curious to see which reply did I change my position in.
Quote
No I am not. I only meant a guardian can give consent if the girl is not there. Which does not apply to our bearded mosque bunny.

So far, you can see that in ALL my posts I maintain that I do not know if a guardian permission is required. And that I am looking for an answer.

I am consistent. I did not change my story. Somehow Berbs made an accusation but you can see that her accusation might have come from misreading my reply 26. I replied to her accusation. And before she confirms or check my answer. You decided that somehow it is okay to come in and make a splash about it.

In reply #37 you went at it Os. I can only assume that you picked on Reply #35 from Berberella and on the incorrect assumption made in that reply. This is why I asked you to go ask her. Otherwise, I need you to tell me in which post did I 'change my story'.

My status had been from the start that: I need to find if a guardian's permission is needed. In fact that is still my position as I did not get a chance to research the hadith that Berbs gave me yet. But I need to resolve this miscommunication First.

Now be quick. The Sun is shining here in lovely Toronto which is lucky since we had some bad storms and record breaking bad weather for the past 10 days in lovely Toronto.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #41 - January 05, 2009, 03:40 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on January 05, 2009, 11:21 AM
No chance of an apology, sunshine. I quoted you and I've been reading the posts. You were trying to claim that a girl could be married off in a proper Islamic marriage without the approval of her guardian.

Now you are trying to claim that "approval"and "presence" are the same thing when they obviously are not.

ETA: Oh and by the way, "locking" is not strong language.

To make it simpler, in which reply, did I jump from the First bold, to the Second Bold?

When did I make this jump, when even until now, I still maintain the First bold pending further research into it. You reply #37 does not indicate any change of opinions.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #42 - January 05, 2009, 07:52 PM

Quote from: Baal on January 05, 2009, 03:30 PM

In reply 35: Berberella makes an assumption/question that I might be implying that a guardian gave permission without being there. I do not know from which reply she formulated that assumption from. Myself, I was very surprised when I read it.

Could it be this:

Quote
My strong reasoning so far is that I can not find yet the part where a guardian of a muslim girl has to be present in giving consent. Keep asking me to prove a negative some more.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #43 - January 06, 2009, 04:02 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on January 05, 2009, 07:52 PM
Quote from: Baal on January 05, 2009, 03:30 PM

In reply 35: Berberella makes an assumption/question that I might be implying that a guardian gave permission without being there. I do not know from which reply she formulated that assumption from. Myself, I was very surprised when I read it.

Could it be this:

Quote
My strong reasoning so far is that I can not find yet the part where a guardian of a muslim girl has to be present in giving consent. Keep asking me to prove a negative some more.

Ah I can see where you might have reached your conclusion. However I absolutely had no intention in confounding the Two. In fact the idea of confounding those Two was so far off my mind that it did not even register as I was formulating the sentence. Also for me to have meant what you think I did, I believe we would have to change the grammar of the sentence unless you can tell me word for word how you interpreted the sentence.

Here I will rewrite the sentence with parentheses to explain what I had in mind:

I can not find yet the part where a guardian of a muslim girl has to be present in (the event of) giving consent.

I will have to also put forward that, I always maintained that "I did not know if the consent of a guardian is needed". What purpose would it serve me to imply forward that: "The consent of a guardian can be obtained without the guardian being present" That is just too crazy on my part and is an assumption I could never dwell or waste time in.

The purpose of my exercise in this thread was to answer a specific question to myself. Whether the imam could have pulled away his act using islamic laws. My purpose was not to just paint him and run. And to achieve my purpose I attempted to engage you and engage the forum to assist me with a very specific point I found myself deficient in.

Now If I wanted to just prove if a guardian could give consent while being absent as well, wow, this is really really big. I would not have done this on the sly. I would have probably opened a thread just for this question and asked on this forum as well as on muslim forums.

As for Os, you still jumped off the handle on this one, the Two quotes you made were not even relevant in this issue. You just picked on a queue that: "Berbs must have caught something" and you came splashing in. Don't make me wax too.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #44 - January 06, 2009, 09:50 AM

Go ahead and wax.

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