Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher

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Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
OP - January 02, 2009, 11:03 PM

...."A mosque teacher who subjected two young girls to an ordeal of sex abuse at Koran lessons in Edinburgh has been jailed for seven years."...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7791604.stm

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #1 - January 02, 2009, 11:07 PM

May he get what's coming to him.

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #2 - January 02, 2009, 11:09 PM

....."The victims, now 19, told his trial that he abused them in a bedroom at the mosque during Koran lessons. "....

When did Mosques start having bedrooms?

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #3 - January 02, 2009, 11:16 PM

Quote from: animation_guy on January 02, 2009, 11:03 PM
...."A mosque teacher who subjected two young girls to an ordeal of sex abuse at Koran lessons in Edinburgh has been jailed for seven years."...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7791604.stm

Would you say that the abuse would not have happened if the parents had given the girls education on unapropriate behaviour?
Do muslim parents give such advice? At what age?

I can't recall that they do.
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #4 - January 02, 2009, 11:20 PM

Quote from: kamran on January 02, 2009, 11:16 PM
Would you say that the abuse would not have happened if the parents had given the girls education on unapropriate behaviour?
Do muslim parents give such advice? At what age?

I can't recall that they do.

Quote
He began molesting the first child in January 1995 and the abuse continued until September 1998 during which time he kissed and carried out sex acts on the girl.

The second girl was molested by Qadri at the mosque from January 1997 until September the following year.

The victims, now 19,

19 in 2008, which means the first girl was 6 when he started and went until she was 9, the other girl was 8.

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #5 - January 02, 2009, 11:22 PM

Sex education doesn?t exist in Asian families. I was on the BBC asian network awhile ago talking about this issue and I was surprised at how many British Asians didn?t want their children taking part in sex education classes in school.

And leaving them with religious people does help. What is it with religion and child abuse?

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #6 - January 02, 2009, 11:22 PM

Quote from: animation_guy on January 02, 2009, 11:09 PM
....."The victims, now 19, told his trial that he abused them in a bedroom at the mosque during Koran lessons. "....

When did Mosques start having bedrooms?

Some of the mosques have a bedroom to accomodate a live-in teacher/guardian.
They also have sleeping places for visiting people (jamaat).
During Ramadan, I have heard of groups staying there for the full 30 days.
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #7 - January 02, 2009, 11:24 PM

Quote from: kamran on January 02, 2009, 11:22 PM
Quote from: animation_guy on January 02, 2009, 11:09 PM
....."The victims, now 19, told his trial that he abused them in a bedroom at the mosque during Koran lessons. "....

When did Mosques start having bedrooms?

Some of the mosques have a bedroom to accomodate a live-in teacher/guardian.
They also have sleeping places for visiting people (jamaat).
During Ramadan, I have heard of groups staying there for the full 30 days.

Thanks for the Info. It's been a very long time since I've stepped foot into such a place.

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #8 - January 02, 2009, 11:34 PM

Quote from: animation_guy on January 02, 2009, 11:22 PM
Sex education doesn?t exist in Asian families. I was on the BBC asian network awhile ago talking about this issue and I was surprised at how many British Asians didn?t want their children taking part in sex education classes in school.

And leaving them with religious people does help. What is it with religion and child abuse?

The muslims don't need to allow their children full sex education. But I would have thought simple things like:
"You don't let anyone touch you there"
"You don't have to keep secrets"
"You should not be alone with a teacher, etc, etc"
"You don't accept presents, sweets from ..... "

Things like that. ?
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #9 - January 03, 2009, 12:19 AM

I doubt having a sex education would have changed a thing. It's the humiliation that keeps people from confessing, and at times it is guilt or self-blame.

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #10 - January 03, 2009, 12:24 AM

Kids was 8-9, that is younger then when most get their sex ed.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #11 - January 03, 2009, 12:39 AM

Quote from: Baal on January 03, 2009, 12:24 AM
Kids was 8-9, that is younger then when most get their sex ed.

That depends on what country you are in. In holland it starts at 5 years old.

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #12 - January 03, 2009, 12:51 AM

Quote from: Baal on January 03, 2009, 12:24 AM
Kids was 8-9, that is younger then when most get their sex ed.

Which means that mosque teacher probably thought he was doing nothing wrong.

He was just following his prophet's example.
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #13 - January 03, 2009, 12:59 AM

Quote from: gallego on January 03, 2009, 12:51 AM
Quote from: Baal on January 03, 2009, 12:24 AM
Kids was 8-9, that is younger then when most get their sex ed.

Which means that mosque teacher probably thought he was doing nothing wrong.

He was just following his prophet's example.

Sorry sherlock, but you are wrong. He knew he was doing something wrong.

I find what mohammed did disgusting and I condemn it, but at least (and I do mean like atom size least) he married the girl. Doesn't fucking make it better by a long shot, but he was doing it out in the open, acceptable in Islam.

This mosque teacher was molesting these little girls OUTSIDE the confines of Islamic law. They were young muslim girls, so you can't say "yeah but like a right hand possession etc etc", meaning as muslims girls he knew he was violating them, he knew he was raping them, he knew he didn't have any physical rights to them whatsoever.

If he had been following the prophets tradition, he would have sought marriage out, and if he couldn't have her legally here, he would have gone to a country where he could have.

This man was a peadophile, who didn't follow the prophets tradition, just a sick bastard, not even a proper muslim.

Use you brain, just a little, it doesn't hurt you know.

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7yrs is pathetic, as if these girls were over it in 7yrs.

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #14 - January 03, 2009, 01:15 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on January 03, 2009, 12:59 AM
7yrs is pathetic, as if these girls were over it in 7yrs.

That really surprised me, that's such a tiny sentence! These girls were subjected to years of abuse!!

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #15 - January 03, 2009, 03:30 AM

Just playing the devil's advocate. Is what the imam did really against islam:

The imam claims he married them, so how did that work:

* He got them to say yes? Easy, or used their silence as a sign of acceptance.
* He paid a dowry? Sure he paid a dowry.
* Did he get permission from the parents? He surely did not.

The question is, did the perv need the acceptance of the parents?

In the case of following the example of Muhammad, muhammad asked Abu Bakr first, but that was because muhammad needed the physical access to his niece, and he could not secure a physical access without asking Abu Bakr. The question is where does it say that a man needs the permission of the parents as well?

Perhaps we can use the verse that alludes that there exists a certain age for nikah (legal intercourse)?

Perhaps we can use Muhammad's example that the age is set to 9?

So as long as the imam did not perform an intercourse in the mosque, then the imam was within the boundaries of his law? As long as he kept it just at feeting and thighing?

What if there is a Second imam in the mosque and he also decides to marry the little girl? Who will be committing adultery here? The Second imam? He will claim ignorance. The little girl? I am afraid so.

Now of course a pervert is a pervert is a pervert, he will use whatever tools available to him to satisfy his perversion. The question is, does islamic jurisprudence, offer to him the tools? or does he have to circumvent islam in order to satisfy his perversion?

If islam does not stop him, And it seems that islam does not stop him, then what use is islam? what does islam regulate? Aren't muslims then, just living in a world where they have to count on people around them, being decent with or without a religion.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #16 - January 03, 2009, 04:38 AM

Baal, Your attempts to make a smart arsed remarks on the subject sickens me.

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #17 - January 03, 2009, 05:35 AM

Quote from: animation_guy on January 03, 2009, 04:38 AM
Baal, Your attempts to make a smart arsed remarks on the subject sickens me.

Wtf. Are you smoking something this evening AG. Whatever it is you are smoking please keep it to yourself as everything i posted was dead fvcking serious.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #18 - January 03, 2009, 05:45 AM

Quote from: animation_guy on January 03, 2009, 12:39 AM
Quote from: Baal on January 03, 2009, 12:24 AM
Kids was 8-9, that is younger then when most get their sex ed.

That depends on what country you are in. In holland it starts at 5 years old.

Good to know this information though, but that is quite rare even in the West. I also believe it is particularly rare in England and specially in an Asian family. The kids were vulnerable.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #19 - January 03, 2009, 06:59 AM

Quote from: Baal on January 03, 2009, 03:30 AM
Just playing the devil's advocate. Is what the imam did really against islam:

The imam claims he married them, so how did that work:

* He got them to say yes? Easy, or used their silence as a sign of acceptance.
* He paid a dowry? Sure he paid a dowry.
* Did he get permission from the parents? He surely did not.

The question is, did the perv need the acceptance of the parents?

In the case of following the example of Muhammad, muhammad asked Abu Bakr first, but that was because muhammad needed the physical access to his niece, and he could not secure a physical access without asking Abu Bakr. The question is where does it say that a man needs the permission of the parents as well?

Perhaps we can use the verse that alludes that there exists a certain age for nikah (legal intercourse)?

Perhaps we can use Muhammad's example that the age is set to 9?

So as long as the imam did not perform an intercourse in the mosque, then the imam was within the boundaries of his law? As long as he kept it just at feeting and thighing?

What if there is a Second imam in the mosque and he also decides to marry the little girl? Who will be committing adultery here? The Second imam? He will claim ignorance. The little girl? I am afraid so.

Now of course a pervert is a pervert is a pervert, he will use whatever tools available to him to satisfy his perversion. The question is, does islamic jurisprudence, offer to him the tools? or does he have to circumvent islam in order to satisfy his perversion?

If islam does not stop him, And it seems that islam does not stop him, then what use is islam? what does islam regulate? Aren't muslims then, just living in a world where they have to count on people around them, being decent with or without a religion.

It was almost guaranteed that you would find a way to insinuate this was all down to Islam, this is inspite of the facts.

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #20 - January 03, 2009, 08:08 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on January 03, 2009, 06:59 AM
Quote from: Baal on January 03, 2009, 03:30 AM
Just playing the devil's advocate. Is what the imam did really against islam:

The imam claims he married them, so how did that work:

* He got them to say yes? Easy, or used their silence as a sign of acceptance.
* He paid a dowry? Sure he paid a dowry.
* Did he get permission from the parents? He surely did not.

The question is, did the perv need the acceptance of the parents?

In the case of following the example of Muhammad, muhammad asked Abu Bakr first, but that was because muhammad needed the physical access to his niece, and he could not secure a physical access without asking Abu Bakr. The question is where does it say that a man needs the permission of the parents as well?

Perhaps we can use the verse that alludes that there exists a certain age for nikah (legal intercourse)?

Perhaps we can use Muhammad's example that the age is set to 9?

So as long as the imam did not perform an intercourse in the mosque, then the imam was within the boundaries of his law? As long as he kept it just at feeting and thighing?

What if there is a Second imam in the mosque and he also decides to marry the little girl? Who will be committing adultery here? The Second imam? He will claim ignorance. The little girl? I am afraid so.

Now of course a pervert is a pervert is a pervert, he will use whatever tools available to him to satisfy his perversion. The question is, does islamic jurisprudence, offer to him the tools? or does he have to circumvent islam in order to satisfy his perversion?

If islam does not stop him, And it seems that islam does not stop him, then what use is islam? what does islam regulate? Aren't muslims then, just living in a world where they have to count on people around them, being decent with or without a religion.

It was almost guaranteed that you would find a way to insinuate this was all down to Islam, this is inspite of the facts.

facts. what facts. The only thing I saw was someone making a post that what this imam did is not islamic. Am I supposed to accept this statement in good faith as being a fact?

Currently the only fact hinging on this being islamic or not, is whether the father (guardian) has to give his permission or not. If the permission of the Father is not required, then what the imam did is not against islam.

PS: I understand that Gallego is taking it to his own extreme, but that does not mean I have to accept a statement like: "This is not islamic" without questioning such a statement
.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #21 - January 03, 2009, 08:30 AM

Quote from: Baal on January 03, 2009, 08:08 AM

facts. what facts. The only thing I saw was someone making a post that what this imam did is not islamic. Am I supposed to accept this statement in good faith as being a fact?

Fact no1 - guy not married to them....end of fucking facts.

Quote

Currently the only fact hinging on this being islamic or not, is whether the father (guardian) has to give his permission or not. If the permission of the Father is not required, then what the imam did is not against islam.

Which you already know IS required, so why the twisty windy long road of cloudy insinuating words? you already know that based on that, it ceases to be the prophets tradtion.

Quote

PS: I understand that Gallego is taking it to his own extreme, but that does not mean I have to accept a statement like: "This is not islamic" without questioning such a statement
.

Wow, all the reas of studying Islam and you still need to question this simple thing? I ccredited you with far more knowledge than you are pretending to have now.

I can understand gallego, he displays his parrot FFI nonsense with no understanding time and time again, but you, you know better.

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #22 - January 03, 2009, 09:15 AM

Baal, there is absolutely zero mention of marriage in the linked article.

The defendant did not claim he had married the girls. He claimed he did not commit the offenses.

Even if he had claimed to have married the girls he would have needed their guardian's permission as BerberElla pointed out and as you should know by now, considering you supposedly have been studying Islam for years.

I second BerberElla's call of bullshit.

The article in question is this one:

Quote from: BBC News
Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher

A mosque teacher who subjected two young girls to an ordeal of sex abuse at Koran lessons in Edinburgh has been jailed for seven years.

Mahmood Qadri, 60, began preying on the children during the 1990s while helping the pupils learn the book of Islam.

A judge at the High Court in Edinburgh was told Qadri maintained he was wrongly convicted of the charges.

Qadri had denied two charges of lewd and libidinous behaviour at Polwarth Mosque but was earlier convicted.

But temporary judge John Morris QC told him: "Because of the gravity of the crimes of which you were convicted a custodial sentence is the only appropriate disposal in your case."

He said: "Because you have been convicted of sexual offences I am concerned that the public, and in particular young children, are adequately protected from serious harm from you when you are eventually released."

The judge ordered that Qadri should be kept under supervision for a further two years and warned if he breached it he could be brought back to court.

He also ruled that first offender Qadri should be placed on the sex offenders register for life.

He began molesting the first child in January 1995 and the abuse continued until September 1998 during which time he kissed and carried out sex acts on the girl.

The second girl was molested by Qadri at the mosque from January 1997 until September the following year.

The victims, now 19, told his trial that he abused them in a bedroom at the mosque during Koran lessons.

One told the court that the abuse occurred every day she attended at the mosque.

She said it was only later that she first revealed what had occurred as she had previously been scared and thought "people would laugh" at her.

Qadri, from Manchester, had originally been due to appear in court in 2005 but had gone to Pakistan to carry out "relief work" following an earthquake.

He was detained in May this year when authorities held him in Germany.

Defence counsel Sarah Livingstone said there had clearly been "a breach of trust".

She said Qadri accepted the decision of the court but added: "It is his position he had been wrongly convicted.

"He said he has no intention of ever teaching children again. That is not something that is going to happen because of the sex offenders' register and because of the organisation of the mosque."

Baal, since you are the one making the claims I expect you to post two things:

1/ Proof that the defendant in this case actually claimed to have been married to the girls.

2/ Proof that their guardian's consent is not required for marriage under Islamic law.

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #23 - January 03, 2009, 12:27 PM

Sorry Baal but you're tits-up on this one.
The report demonstrates that the man is a common or garden pervert of the kind you find in all walks of life. doesn't matter if they are abusing their trust as 'in loco parentis' religious guardians or whether they're athletics or swimming or tennis coaches or school teachers; you get them all.
He got what he deserved because of his personal defects, not because of what he was representing at the time, even if he was taking advantage of his position of trust as an islamic teacher. The only fault with the organisation he was representing seems to be that he had not been vetted by the UK police and had no 'disclosure' that would have licenced him to work, solo, with kids. I hope that they and other mosques will learn from this. That's why we have police disclosure procedures: to find out who is fit to associate with children and vulnerable adults on a professional or a voluntary basis.

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #24 - January 04, 2009, 07:05 PM

Are 'child beatings' in Mosques really that widespread?
Friday 12th December 2008

According to a new report compiled by Irfan Chishti, Muslim children are being beaten and abused regularly by teachers at some madrassas. Students have been slapped, punched and had their ears twisted, according to the unpublished report by the Rochdale imam based on interviews with victims in the north of England.

The Times newspaper, painted a bleak picture of Muslims in Rochdale and their institutions.

http://www.asianimage.co.uk/columnists/3972331.Are__child_beatings__in_Mosques_really_that_widespread_/

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #25 - January 04, 2009, 07:49 PM

Abuse like this used to be the norm in many C of E schools in N England, including my own, when I was a kid over 50 years ago. It was also reportedly common in the Catholic institutions and schools of Ireland until quite recently.
It was allowed to flourish because of the religiously inspired coercion and fear induced by those organisations who preferred to 'deal with it themselves' rather than submit to the rule of law. They thought they were above the law.
Well, they sure got found out, as we all know, on every continent on Earth and are paying heavily for such dereliction of humanity.
The Mosques mentioned in your link similarly need to be brought up to speed with obeying the law and using the law to ensure the safety and well being of their children. But Majed Iqbal's tone in Asian Image seems to be one of annoyance about poor image rather than one of relief that such abuse has been reported. He is not supportive of the report's author even though he seems to accept that abuse has occured.
His view is that evidence of any criticism of the Muslim organisations mentioned in Chishti's report, however justified, should have been swept under the carpet. With attitudes like this, claiming to be 'the voice of the Asian community', it looks as though they are going to have to learn the same painful lessons inflicted on the world catholic authorities just recently.

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #26 - January 05, 2009, 03:00 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on January 03, 2009, 08:30 AM
Which you already know IS required, so why the twisty windy long road of cloudy insinuating words? you already know that based on that, it ceases to be the prophets tradtion.

Sorry. I do not know if the approval of a guardian is required or not.

The one reality that I picked from learning the koran, is to always question the koran to check if it complies with norms. So many common sense thing I used to think the writer of the koran shared with me, only to find later that the writer of the koran was from a much different century then me.

I have strong reasons to believe that the approval of a guardian is not required.

I know that a guardian can give away a girl without her approval according to hadith and a twisted interpretation of the koran. (If a girl is kept outside the room where the marriage occur).

But I do not know if a guardian has to approve the marriage of a girl.

Btw, This man did not commit intercourse with the girls, he was not accused of that. As far as I am concerned it was all thighing and feeting.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #27 - January 05, 2009, 06:49 AM

So what about your claim that the defendant said he had married the girls? Where did you get that from? Do you have anything to back it up?

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #28 - January 05, 2009, 07:03 AM

Quote from: Baal on January 03, 2009, 05:45 AM
Quote from: animation_guy on January 03, 2009, 12:39 AM
Quote from: Baal on January 03, 2009, 12:24 AM
Kids was 8-9, that is younger then when most get their sex ed.

That depends on what country you are in. In holland it starts at 5 years old.

Good to know this information though, but that is quite rare even in the West. I also believe it is particularly rare in England and specially in an Asian family. The kids were vulnerable.

Even if the kids did get sexual education, it probably wouldn't change very much. Imagine the fear he instilled in them. Besides they were children, which makes them that much more afraid. Fear is arguably the best means of control.

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Re: Jail for sex abuse mosque teacher
Reply #29 - January 05, 2009, 07:26 AM

Quote from: Baal on January 05, 2009, 03:00 AM
Quote from: BerberElla on January 03, 2009, 08:30 AM
Which you already know IS required, so why the twisty windy long road of cloudy insinuating words? you already know that based on that, it ceases to be the prophets tradtion.

Sorry. I do not know if the approval of a guardian is required or not.

The one reality that I picked from learning the koran, is to always question the koran to check if it complies with norms. So many common sense thing I used to think the writer of the koran shared with me, only to find later that the writer of the koran was from a much different century then me.

I have strong reasons to believe that the approval of a guardian is not required.

I know that a guardian can give away a girl without her approval according to hadith and a twisted interpretation of the koran. (If a girl is kept outside the room where the marriage occur).

But I do not know if a guardian has to approve the marriage of a girl.

Btw, This man did not commit intercourse with the girls, he was not accused of that. As far as I am concerned it was all thighing and feeting.

Present your strong reasoning then.

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