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 Topic: Marriage to Aisha

 (Read 4384 times)
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  • Marriage to Aisha
     OP - December 23, 2008, 12:17 AM

    Maybe this has been hashed out many times before, (probably has) but I was curious for some input.  If it's anything like where I come from, it's a perennial mega-topic that frequently rears its head.

    Do you find the Prophet's marriage to Aisha to be morally reprehensible? 

    Arguments against it being so:

    -It was common practice at the time.
    -Aisha never had anything but kind words for him.
    -No enemy of the Prophet ever used this point against him
    -everyone, even here in the West, practiced this until surprisingly recent times

    So if one finds it morally 'wrong'... how do they justify their own stance as more 'right' and not simply ethnocentric?  At what age should a girl be considered 'ready' for a sexual relationship?


    -these questions were put to me recently, and things got... well, messy.  But before I weigh in, I'd like to hear what some others have to say. 
  • Re: Marriage to Aisha
     Reply #1 - December 23, 2008, 01:44 AM

    Maybe this has been hashed out many times before, (probably has) but I was curious for some input.  If it's anything like where I come from, it's a perennial mega-topic that frequently rears its head.

    Do you find the Prophet's marriage to Aisha to be morally reprehensible? 

    Arguments against it being so:

    -It was common practice at the time.
    -Aisha never had anything but kind words for him.
    -No enemy of the Prophet ever used this point against him
    -everyone, even here in the West, practiced this until surprisingly recent times

    So if one finds it morally 'wrong'... how do they justify their own stance as more 'right' and not simply ethnocentric?  At what age should a girl be considered 'ready' for a sexual relationship?


    -these questions were put to me recently, and things got... well, messy.  But before I weigh in, I'd like to hear what some others have to say. 


    Rationally it was not "morally reprehensible", it was just very wrong, in this context he was a man of his time.  I obviously find it disgusting and I am glad that modern knowledge has led us to a better understanding of the female physiology and exactly why it is wrong.

    On the other hand it blows apart Islam as far as I am concerned.  If Islam was from a god, a god who supposedly created us, then Mohammed would NEVER have married and consumated a marriage with a 9 year old girl, because any god that created us would have known this and his/her religion would have reflected this knowledge.

    If a prophet from a religion can do, to what us is a morally reprehensible act, then he is not for all times and neither is his religion.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Marriage to Aisha
     Reply #2 - December 23, 2008, 02:22 AM

    I agree with what Berbs said.

    To add I'd just like to say that when debating with muslims about islam I hardly ever bring this up.

    Why ? Because most muslims immediately get defensive and think you are out to "insult" the prophet or their religion.

    So instantly their shutters go up and their minds close to any logical thinking.

    Those who are "sincere" in their deen usually are able to rationalise it with the arguments you've stated and others that include things like "girls matured to womanhood at a younger age then" and so on.

    This stuff is usually better at convincing non-muslims that islam is a reprehensible religion than it is with practising muslims.

    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: Marriage to Aisha
     Reply #3 - December 23, 2008, 09:40 AM

    It's in morally condemnable because Mohammed has made it an acceptable act by adding religion to the mix, as Islam is the word of God a muslim has no basis to outlaw anything Islam made acceptable. Therefore muslims can continue abusing little girls if they want with the permission of God, Mohammed has made paedophilia acceptable. There really isn't much else he could have made so morally repulsive as this act.
  • Re: Marriage to Aisha
     Reply #4 - December 23, 2008, 07:16 PM

    Do you find the Prophet's marriage to Aisha to be morally reprehensible? 

    Yes because he set himself as the "best example" for Muslims to follow. This is not to say that marrying children is obligatory, but if you have the money and the inclination, then you have religious precedent to do so.

    Arguments against it being so:

    -It was common practice at the time.

    There is no evidence that this was a common practice BEFORE Muhammad institutionalised it in Islamic rite. What I mean is that it was not socially acceptable (isolated cases do not count).

    -Aisha never had anything but kind words for him.

    So? She was raised her whole life being told that Muhammad was a prophet. Why would she say anything bad about him? If she had known any different before being brought into Islam we might say she suffered from Stockholm's syndrome or something; but since she was always a Muslim then we call it childhood indoctrination.

    -No enemy of the Prophet ever used this point against him

    Can you please point me to the library where all the non-Muslim contemporaneous writings are kept? The fact is, the only remaining sources we have about the formation of Islam and Muhammad's life are Muslim writings.

    -everyone, even here in the West, practiced this until surprisingly recent times

    How does this make it right? Secondly, Muhammad declared himself a prophet of God and told Muslims to follow *his* example. He has raised himself and his conduct ABOVE all the other 'mere mortals'. He should not be following the status quo.
  • Re: Marriage to Aisha
     Reply #5 - December 23, 2008, 10:25 PM

    The fact that everyone else did it at the time makes it something we can ground in a 7th century context. Which, of course, means that Muhammad is NOT an example to follow for all time.

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Marriage to Aisha
     Reply #6 - December 23, 2008, 10:28 PM

    -It was common practice at the time.


    Just because pedophilia was the norm in Arab society back then (whether this is true or not, I don't know, just going with the argument), that doesn't make it right, it means they were ignorant to that which was wrong.  By using moral relativists arguments, no one can critisise anything, the child sacrifices commited by the Incans cannot be critisised and has to be understood under its historical and cultural context.  So should we defend what the Incans did just because it was considered acceptable to them?. 

    -Aisha never had anything but kind words for him.


    Hitler's followers never had anything bad to say about him.  Aisha, like most Muslims, was indoctrinated into Islam since birth.  Muslims don't have anything bad to say about Muhammad, and don't see anything wrong with a 50+ year old man having sex with a 9 year old, massacring an entire tribe and enslaving woman and children into slavery.

    -No enemy of the Prophet ever used this point against him


    That's probably because they were marrying and having sex with little kids themselves, considering it was a "common practice".

    -everyone, even here in the West, practiced this until surprisingly recent times


    What evidence do you have?, even if we assume that this was indeed the case, it still doesn't make it right. 

    You cannot judge an act/practice to be moral simply on the basis on the number of people committing it, it's a bit like me saying that it's ok for me to go and steal because it's so common.

    So if one finds it morally 'wrong'... how do they justify their own stance as more 'right' and not simply ethnocentric?  At what age should a girl be considered 'ready' for a sexual relationship?


    -these questions were put to me recently, and things got... well, messy.  But before I weigh in, I'd like to hear what some others have to say. 


    What I find a bit puzzling, is that when Muslims are confronted with this particular episode in Muhammad's life, they quickly resort to moral relativists arguments such as understanding the marriage within the historical context.  However, when it comes to issues like homosexuality, then Muslims are not so flexible in their opinions, they are absolutely against it, and that homosexuals must be punished.

    So moral relativism for Muhammad having sex with a 9 year old, but moral absolutism for everything else, why such hipocracy?.

    And did Muhammad come to reform society or become a victim to the backwardness of the society in which he lived in?.
  • Re: Marriage to Aisha
     Reply #7 - December 24, 2008, 02:03 AM

    Yeh, pretty much the same things I said. 

    Before I simply said "if that makes me ethnocentric, then so be it"... but this time I wanted to actually articulate why I felt there was still something unsettling even given the fact that I can usually suspend my ethnocentrism a fair bit (i hope so anyway).

    So basically I said the same stuff - that I feel like to commit someone to a life-long sexual relationship without their consent, is to strip away a part of their dignity.  This was the phrase that caused the uproar. 

    I also mentioned African slavery in the US, and the fact that we can realize that it was normal for them in their world, but that still didn't make it 'okay'.

    Actually DM1, I just realized your last point today while I was dozing off mid-afternoon... the point on moral relatavism and moral absolutism.  It's pretty contradictory. 


    In any case, I essentially was asked nicely to not say that stuff from the admin (I'm actually the only non-muslim moderator on the site).  But it left me feeling deeply unsettled, essentially the fact that certain topics were off-limits, even if not brought up as an attack or anything of the sort. (although, in this case, 'attack' seemed to be anything critical of the Prophet, even if it was based on his actions)

    And I think this honestly is one of the reasons that mistrust and sketchiness characterizes the interaction between Muslims and non-muslims.  The fact that something seen as worthy of criticism by one side is met by such anger from the other.  I think this is getting to the crux of some important point.



    Anyway, I was curious for the perspective of some current Muslims, or ex-Muslims (or undecided Muslims haha) about their feeling on this when they themselves may have felt defensive about this point.  Maybe you could shine some light on this for me.
  • Re: Marriage to Aisha
     Reply #8 - December 24, 2008, 02:06 PM


    What I find a bit puzzling, is that when Muslims are confronted with this particular episode in Muhammad's life, they quickly resort to moral relativists arguments such as understanding the marriage within the historical context.  However, when it comes to issues like homosexuality, then Muslims are not so flexible in their opinions, they are absolutely against it, and that homosexuals must be punished.




    Some muslims resort to the moral relativity answer, some resort to aggression, some happily accept it, some reject the hadiths that suggest she was 9 and say she was 17, some muslims reject all hadiths.

    To say just "muslims do this, and muslims do that" is wrong since some muslims don't accept it at all.

    I was pretty shocked to come across some muslims who accept homosexuality, saying that Lot's people were only punished for taking it too far, to the point of men rejecting women completely in favour of men.  (of course I know this is hogwash but it shows that you can't broad brush the enitre muslim ummah the way your post did)

    Sure, the majority do seem to veer towards the harsher judgemental type, and are happy to carry on marrying young girls since the prophet did it, but not all.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Marriage to Aisha
     Reply #9 - December 24, 2008, 05:56 PM



    Some muslims resort to the moral relativity answer, some resort to aggression, some happily accept it, some reject the hadiths that suggest she was 9 and say she was 17, some muslims reject all hadiths.

    To say just "muslims do this, and muslims do that" is wrong since some muslims don't accept it at all.

    I was pretty shocked to come across some muslims who accept homosexuality, saying that Lot's people were only punished for taking it too far, to the point of men rejecting women completely in favour of men.  (of course I know this is hogwash but it shows that you can't broad brush the enitre muslim ummah the way your post did)

    Sure, the majority do seem to veer towards the harsher judgemental type, and are happy to carry on marrying young girls since the prophet did it, but not all.



    It's interesting, there were two guys arguing with me - one was saying that I was calling the Prophet a pedophile because I was saying he had sex with a child (He said that her age was only based on hearsay - and never responded when I pointed out it was from several strong ahadeeth) - while another guy was adamant that she was nine, and that we shouldn't apply 'Western' moral standards to the situation. 

    Normally, the second dude would've been freaking out on the first dude for calling a sahih hadith 'hearsay'.  But in this case they had a common enemy to take on, and patted each other on the back. 


    It was actually a big issue - that people were saying I was insinuating that the Prophet was a pedophile, without actually calling him one.  The fact of the matter is, I don't believe he was one.   I've heard different definitions for 'pedophile' and the one I work with is 'an abnormal sexual propensity towards children'.  Given norms at the time, and his wife 'pattern'... I can't say that he fits that definition.  But that doesn't change the fact that I still think it's wrong and gross.... labels aside, i have an issue with a 53 yearold dude having sex with a 9 yearold. 
  • Re: Marriage to Aisha
     Reply #10 - December 24, 2008, 05:58 PM

    i have an issue with a 53 yearold dude having sex with a 9 yearold. 



    I think anyone in this day and age who doesn't have an issue with it is sick.  yes

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Marriage to Aisha
     Reply #11 - December 24, 2008, 07:58 PM

    Maybe this has been hashed out many times before, (probably has) but I was curious for some input.  If it's anything like where I come from, it's a perennial mega-topic that frequently rears its head.

    Do you find the Prophet's marriage to Aisha to be morally reprehensible? 

    Arguments against it being so:

    -It was common practice at the time.
    -Aisha never had anything but kind words for him.
    -No enemy of the Prophet ever used this point against him
    -everyone, even here in the West, practiced this until surprisingly recent times

    So if one finds it morally 'wrong'... how do they justify their own stance as more 'right' and not simply ethnocentric?  At what age should a girl be considered 'ready' for a sexual relationship?


    -these questions were put to me recently, and things got... well, messy.  But before I weigh in, I'd like to hear what some others have to say. 

    I will add a common argument in Arabic circles that he had to marry a lot of women to strengthen the relation among the tribe to ease up on their unification.

    * But Aisha was his niece from Abu Bark his own blood-brother.
    * He held of position of a parent over her.
    * It is acceptable to judge muhammad by what he did not do: He married a 9yr old, but he never instructed us when not to marry kids. He never gave his followers an alternative to his action.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Marriage to Aisha
     Reply #12 - December 24, 2008, 09:25 PM

    Some muslims resort to the moral relativity answer, some resort to aggression, some happily accept it, some reject the hadiths that suggest she was 9 and say she was 17, some muslims reject all hadiths.

    To say just "muslims do this, and muslims do that" is wrong since some muslims don't accept it at all.


    I was speaking from my own experience with discussing with Muslims, that is the most common argument I've heard.

    I was pretty shocked to come across some muslims who accept homosexuality, saying that Lot's people were only punished for taking it too far, to the point of men rejecting women completely in favour of men.  (of course I know this is hogwash but it shows that you can't broad brush the enitre muslim ummah the way your post did)


    Well then those Muslims are clearly going against Islam, Islam is very clear on homosexuals.
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