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Theme Changer

 Topic: As-Salaam Alaikum

 (Read 6805 times)
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  • As-Salaam Alaikum
     OP - December 20, 2008, 06:00 AM

    As-Salaam Alaikum

    I?m one of the surprising number of people who converted to Islam because as a teenager in the late 1980s I was enamoured with Public Enemy. PE always had ?In the Name of Allah? in the liner notes of their LPs. Of course they were referring to Master Fard Muhammad but who cares? They referenced Malcolm X in the liner notes and that set me reading his Autobiography. Haley?s an excellent writer ? I mean c?mon ?Roots is brilliant too ? and I was hooked.

    During the PE period I associated Islam with a sort of uncompromising militancy. However this was in the days when such militancy was ?cool?. Islam had a kind of radical chic and in fact as a teen I sent a threatening letter to Kelloggs over a racist Coco Pops ad they were showing at the time. The ad got pulled and I was convinced that it was my letter which I had signed something ridiculous like Aziz Abdul al-Muntaqim or some such. I can?t remember. I must have been 13 at the most.

    Anyway, while I was attracted to the radical chic of X and PE, the Qur?an was an entirely different matter. Oh did I mention my ethnicity? I am a South Indian who was raised in Australia. That?s important because I was called ?nigger?, ?boong? and ?coon? a lot in school and that?s what got me listening to PE and wanting to be part of an anti-racist transnational ummah in the first place.

    So I started reading the al-Quran but didn?t get far. It was the NJ Dawood version and he makes the Qur?an more violent and nasty than anyone else ? even more so than Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali and Muhammad Muhsin Khan which really is an accomplishment. I actually got through part of it ? excusing the hideous bits - but by the time I got to verse 4:34 I ripped it in two and threw it in the bin. ?Islam? I reasoned ?is a disease not a religion?. It was the same thinking I had about Xtianity ? the religion into which I was born and had turfed for atheism at the age of 15.

    Anyway I happened upon a better version of the Qur?an ? one by Ahmed Ali and it didn?t say you could beat women. Unfortunately it also over-rationalised everything so Solomon didn?t speak to ants but an ant tribe. While this might make sense to a rational atheist I had taken a large amount of LSD in my youth and found the concept of speaking to ants not only plausible but quite nice really.

    It all went on until the media started highlighting every evil deed perpetrated by Muslims. Actually the terrorism is not what irks me: it is the misogyny and patriarchy; the smug arrogance in believing that one is superior to everyone else on the basis of a belief which one cannot control, and the overreaction to every tiny slight to the deen ? intended or unintended.

    I finally converted in 1998 but only jettisoned the whole thing this year ? a few months ago in fact. I still think of myself as a Muslim and would happily admit this to anyone who asks me my religion. I think there are great interpretations of Islam and it is entirely possible to have a ?new Islam? as the Honorable Elijah Muhammad called his rather audacious variant.

    Fuck anyone who thinks otherwise both Muslim and non-Muslim. If I want to believe Allah is a duck sitting in an extraterrestrial goat?s testicle and call that belief Islam and myself a Muslim then fuck you if you think I?m anything less than a bona fide Muslim.

    As it happens, I don?t believe in the premise I just posted. I?m looking to non-dualism ? that?s why I posted Fakhruddin. I like him, and I like his name.

    Love,

    Abdalwali

    PS. I like Native Deen.

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #1 - December 20, 2008, 06:18 AM

    Wa alaykum salaam. Very interesting story, similar to my own in fact. I will write more later (I'm supposed to be working right now Cheesy).

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #2 - December 20, 2008, 07:09 AM

    Quote
    I?m one of the surprising number of people who converted to Islam because as a teenager in the late 1980s I was enamoured with Public Enemy. PE always had ?In the Name of Allah? in the liner notes of their LPs. Of course they were referring to Master Fard Muhammad but who cares? They referenced Malcolm X in the liner notes and that set me reading his Autobiography.


    Public Enemy converted a "surprising number of people"?  I doubt that somehow.

    As for Malcolm X, yes his influence certainly did lead to a lot of people becoming "F****** I*****"

    Quote
    I mean c?mon ?Roots is brilliant too ? and I was hooked.



    Yeah, Roots is brilliant, and yes I was hooked.  Doesn't mean I would  ever see Roots as a reason to convert to Islam, or Christianity, or any other ideology which is so clearly man made.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #3 - December 20, 2008, 07:35 AM

    Quote
    Public Enemy converted a "surprising number of people"?  I doubt that somehow.


    Well it wasn't that I heard Welcome To The Terrordome and immediately raced down to the local masjid to proclaim shahada. However I believe that they were a catalyst. I personally know two other converts who were big PE fans in the late 80s/early 90s and I have also heard of a native American Wahhabi da'i who mentioned that he was a fan back in the day. Of course other factors may have been at work. I have no evidence of a direct correlation between PE-philia and conversion to Islam.

    Quote
    Yeah, Roots is brilliant, and yes I was hooked.  Doesn't mean I would  ever see Roots as a reason to convert to Islam, or Christianity, or any other ideology which is so clearly man made.


    It may be a facile reason to convert but you have not had my life experience. We're all different  grin12

    Love you,

    Abdalwali

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #4 - December 20, 2008, 07:56 AM

    Quote
    Fuck anyone who thinks otherwise both Muslim and non-Muslim. If I want to believe Allah is a duck sitting in an extraterrestrial goat?s testicle and call that belief Islam and myself a Muslim then fuck you if you think I?m anything less than a bona fide Muslim.


    Well you're NOT, so there aloofandbored0

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #5 - December 20, 2008, 08:17 AM

    Quote
    Fuck anyone who thinks otherwise both Muslim and non-Muslim. If I want to believe Allah is a duck sitting in an extraterrestrial goat?s testicle and call that belief Islam and myself a Muslim then fuck you if you think I?m anything less than a bona fide Muslim.


    This quote reminds me of Mike Muhammad Knight, heard of him? He was also inspired by Public Enemy, and Malcolm X. I was partly inspired by Malcolm X, but PE was before my time.

    Quote from: Michael Muhammad Knight
    BAYT UL-WAFFLE

    islam
    goes in and out of me
    like an arrow
    through its game.
    i know this.
    i won't lie about it.
    i'm only comfortable
    going in masjids
    where i don't know anyone.
    i make it
    to two or three jumaas
    a year.

    right now,
    here in the bayt ul-waffle
    staring down
    three long strips
    of bacon,
    i make du'a.


    i love allah,
    and Muhammad
    is dried shit [or in another version: 'a dead bird']
    but i mean that
    in a beautiful way,
    in the tawhid way.
    so knowing that,
    i love muhammad too.

    sallallaho alayhe wa salaam.

    to avoid
    greasing up
    my pen,
    i eat
    with the left.


    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #6 - December 20, 2008, 09:09 AM

    Hi Abdalwali and welcome.

    I also was a Public Enemy fan and I've still got a lot of their records at home in boxes. I however was also into the less hardcore rap.

    And yes I don't doubt many people would have converted to Islam with that combination of rap and Malcolm X during the 80s. You'll still see Malcolm X's image on a lot of Muslim YouTube sites.

    Looking forward to reading some of your posts as I'm sure they will be extremely relevant to a great number of people of our age group.

     Smiley
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #7 - December 20, 2008, 09:43 AM

    Hi Abdalwali and welcome.

    I also was a Public Enemy fan and I've still got a lot of their records at home in boxes. I however was also into the less hardcore rap.

    And yes I don't doubt many people would have converted to Islam with that combination of rap and Malcolm X during the 80s. You'll still see Malcolm X's image on a lot of Muslim YouTube sites.

    Looking forward to reading some of your posts as I'm sure they will be extremely relevant to a great number of people of our age group.

     Smiley


    Hi Speaklow,

    Yes - perhaps it wasn't just Public Enemy alone but the period in hip hop. There was a lot of "Afrocentrism" (?sp) at the time and many of these artists identified with Islam as an ancestral religion and as an antithesis to white supremacist Christianity.

    Perhaps PE only articulated ideas that were dormant within me. Perhaps it was my fitra they were articulating.

    Quote
    30:30 So set thy face for religion, being upright, the nature made by Allah in which He has created men humans. There is no altering Allah?s creation. That is the right religion -- but most people know not --

     (from the Maulana Muhammad Ali version).


    Quote
    This quote reminds me of Mike Muhammad Knight, heard of him? He was also inspired by Public Enemy, and Malcolm X. I was partly inspired by Malcolm X, but PE was before my time


    Yes Awais, I have heard of Mr. Knight. I remember when I was a hardcore Sunni I ordered the Taqwacores book from Alternative Tentacles. It was probably 10 years ago now but I didn't read it - probably because what little of it I read was too heretical/blasphemous for me. I detested Knight for many years and the MWU group he was associated with for a time but after I decided I would junk mainstream religion I ordered a copy of Blue Eyed Devil and I really appreciated it.

    I dug it because I realised that a large part of why I had converted was thanks to American popular culture. Yes - the popular culture of the Great Satan is responsible. Even the fact that Alternative Tentacles was selling the book before it was picked up by Autonomedia; before PE I was a huge fan of Dead Kennedys. "Stars and Stripes of Corruption" from the Frankenchrist LP propelled me towards the Soviet Union and they're hollow slogan "Druzhby Narodov" usually translated as "friendship of nations".

    Quote
    i love allah,
    and Muhammad
    is dried shit [or in another version: 'a dead bird']
    but i mean that
    in a beautiful way,
    in the tawhid way.
    so knowing that,
    i love muhammad too.


    Love this part. It's pervesely non-dualist. Another part that made me crack up in Blue Eyed Devil was when he had a wank in the masjid and then made two raka'ahs.  Smiley

    Quote
    Fuck anyone who thinks otherwise both Muslim and non-Muslim. If I want to believe Allah is a duck sitting in an extraterrestrial goat?s testicle and call that belief Islam and myself a Muslim then fuck you if you think I?m anything less than a bona fide Muslim.


    Well you're NOT, so there aloofandbored0


    Ma'am, I'm Muslim to the heart and pulse. I'm as Muslim as the sun, moon and stars and as Muslim as you Smiley

    Love you!  grin12

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #8 - December 20, 2008, 10:12 AM

    This looks like fun. dance

    So hang on a tick, if this is the case:

    Quote
    If I want to believe Allah is a duck sitting in an extraterrestrial goat's testicle and call that belief Islam and myself a Muslim then fuck you if you think I?m anything less than a bona fide Muslim.


    then I can believe that deities don't exist and religious texts are all dreamt up by men and call myself a bona fide Muslim and you'll back me on this?

    Umm, at what point does the identification as "Muslim" become so tenuous as to be meaningless?

    Anyway welcome to the forum. parrot

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #9 - December 20, 2008, 10:24 AM

    Quote
    then I can believe that deities don't exist and religious texts are all dreamt up by men and call myself a bona fide Muslim and you'll back me on this?

    Umm, at what point does the identification as "Muslim" become so tenuous as to be meaningless?


    Why does it have to have meaning? You could be right and if you want to call yourself a Muslim I'll back you up 100% my beloved brother/sister Smiley

    Love you  grin12


    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #10 - December 20, 2008, 10:30 AM

    Well the funny thing is that humans tend to expect words to have meanings. Sort of enables communication and all that. I mean if I say "my pet hamster is small and furry" and you interpret this as "my pet dinosaur is fifty feet tall and has nasty big teeth" then we are going to have problems communicating effectively.

    Similarly, before calling oneself Muslim it might be expected that one would have some connection with Islam as it is traditionally understood. I understand the point you are trying to make about different interpretations of Islam and I fully agree with it. I just think that you are being a little overenthusiastic in the way you phrase your position.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #11 - December 20, 2008, 10:46 AM

    I like your Islam, you can stay akhy. Smiley

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #12 - December 25, 2008, 06:18 PM

     ' anti-racist transnational ummah ' ?
    Weren't a lot of nineties rappers involved in the ' ten percenter ' brand of islam ? The same ones that claimed white people were  'devils ' , originally invented in a laboratory by a mad scientist ...
      Public Enemy were  also vocal critics of mixed marriages and big fans of anti-semitic conspiracy theories . They did make some great records though , I'll grant you that .
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #13 - December 25, 2008, 08:07 PM

    Welcome. My issue with Elijah is that, he turned a lot of blacks to adopt the doctrine, of their worst of the worst slavers. The ones who did the capturing, the culling, the selling as well as documented mass 'eunuching', a big part of why Turkey does not have a slave 'black problem'.

    I am not saying Elijah should have adopted brazilian doctrines as brazil had a very high ratio of death among their own slave populations, and they had a lot and for a very long time. But still, associating islam with emancipation? Why? How come? In which Century?

    I am hoping you might have a better perspective on that issue as my knowledge is lacking. I am also murky on the conditions malcolm left the group. IF you can enlighten me or recommend some books that would be great.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #14 - December 26, 2008, 07:14 AM

    Welcome. My issue with Elijah is that, he turned a lot of blacks to adopt the doctrine, of their worst of the worst slavers. The ones who did the capturing, the culling, the selling as well as documented mass 'eunuching', a big part of why Turkey does not have a slave 'black problem'.

    I am not saying Elijah should have adopted brazilian doctrines as brazil had a very high ratio of death among their own slave populations, and they had a lot and for a very long time. But still, associating islam with emancipation? Why? How come? In which Century?

    I am hoping you might have a better perspective on that issue as my knowledge is lacking. I am also murky on the conditions malcolm left the group. IF you can enlighten me or recommend some books that would be great.



    I am well aware of the racism and slavery in Muslim history (and in the present). I mixed with Muslims for a long time - met racist and anti-racist Muslims. I've read the ghastly information presented in Race & Slavery in the Middle East by Bernard Lewis. I should also add that I am not an expert on, nor have I ever subscribed to the teaching of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad so i am not the person to answer your questions.

    I respect him only for his audacity and bravery. If you're looking for my opinion I think that his teachings were designed to change mindsets from one of one "love thy enemy" and "turn the right cheek" to 'do for self and kind'. The word 'devil' robs the white man of his humanity in the same way that 'nigger' robs the black man of his. The Nation of Islam was in a sense the antithesis of the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan except they didn't organise lynch mobs to kill white people. I am aware that they are not entirely free from violence either, and I don't believe in 'do for self and kind' - unless 'kind' means 'humankind'.

    So my conjecture is that the teachings of [the second] Muhammad were to break the hold of Christianity on the hearts and minds of African Americans and thereby reclaim some dignity. Mr. Muhammad also taught that there was no heaven or hell except on earth so suffering for some promised redemption was also out of the question. He built up an extensive business enterprise which provided immediate income and a disciplined programme for people who had just left jail for example. The way the Muslims dressed was in suit and bow tie: once again, a dignified way to dress. Yes, he got rich through this and lived in a nice mansion. I would suggest reading Message to the Black Man in America. I read it years ago but I haven't studied the book so little of it is available in my memory for immediate recall.

    I think the first Muhammad (ibn Abdullah) was also a well-intentioned man and tried to help improve the lives of people in his day and age. While I am aware of racist hadiths, for example in Ahmad ibn Hanbal and elsewhere, I think you can also find examples of anti-racism - most famously in the Last Sermon and his appointment of Bilal ibn Rabbah as muezzin and treasurer of the early Muslim community.

    Some things in Islam which can be considered to be anti-racist:

    49:13 O mankind! We created you from a single pair of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes that you might get to know one another. Surely the noblest of you in the sight of Allah is he who is the most righteous. Allah is All-Knowledgeable, All-Aware.

    2:138 (We take) Allah's colour, and who is better than Allah at colouring, and we are His worshippers.

    35:27 Seest thou not that Allah sends down water from the clouds, then We bring forth therewith fruits of various hues? And in the mountains are streaks, white and red, of various hues and (others) intensely black.
    35:28 And of men and beasts and cattle there are various colours likewise. Those of his servants only who are possessed of knowledge fear Allah. Surely Allah is Mighty, Forgiving.

    30:22 And yet others of His signs are the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colors; surely there are signs in this for the knowledgeable.

    32:7 [Allah] made beautiful everything that He created, and He began the creation of man from dust.

    Sayyid Qutb writes that "in Egypt, the principal jurist consulted in the days of Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz was Yazid ibn Abi Habib who was a black client from Dongola" [Islam and Social Justice 2000, p.190].

    'Once the Messenger of Allah while entering a mosque saw a man surrounded by the people. The Prophet enquired about the man. He was informed that the man was an 'Allamah. The Prophet enquired, "What is an 'Allamah?" The people told the Prophet, "'Allamah is a person who of all the people knows most about Arab lineage, Arab battles, the days of ignorance, and all about the Arab verses and Arab literature." Hearing this the Prophet remarked, "This is precisely the knowledge, the acquisition of which is neither of any profit nor is the non-acquisition of it of any loss."' [Kitab Al-Kafi, The Book of Excellence of Knowledge, 46-1]

    Al-Bukhari reported that Abu Dharr and Bilal, the Abyssinian, both of whom were among the earliest Muslims, once quarreled and insulted each other. Carried away by his anger, Abu Dharr said to Bilal, "You son of a black woman!" Bilal complained about this to the Prophet (peace be on him), who turned to Abu Dharr, saying, "Are you taunting him about his mother? There is still some influence of jahiliyyah in you!'' (Reported by al-Bukhari.)

    Of course the cynic in me suspects Muhammad wanted to get rid of any ideas (eg. Arab nationalism) in competition with his (the Muslim nation). But even if this was the case, he's still anti-racist. "The best lineage is good character" is a saying often ascribed to Muhammad in Ghazali's Ihya Ulum id-Din (see for example 22.1 in TJ Winter's translation). Even if Muhammad wanted to build a new, intolerant in-group who hated all others, that group was still one comprised of many different races, cultures and languages.

    Racism however is only one form of despisal of others. A religious nation can lead to other forms of asabiyyah and Muslims seem to prefer to help their own 'kind' and have brotherhood only to their own. So fuck 'em.

    As for the reasons Malcolm X left - they are indeed murky. The Nation of Islam maintains that Malcolm went on hajj in 1958 and he never mentioned anything about eating with white people with the bluest of eyes then. It was only after his second hajj that he had this epiphany. I don't say anything against Mr. Shabazz either as I admire him greatly. Nor can I help you regarding the real reasons he left the Nation of Islam. If I remember from his Autobiography (another book I haven't read for about 14 years) the 'official' reason from his side is that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad was having sex with some of his secretaries.

    Love,

    Abdalwali


    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #15 - December 26, 2008, 07:17 AM

    ' anti-racist transnational ummah ' ?
    Weren't a lot of nineties rappers involved in the ' ten percenter ' brand of islam ? The same ones that claimed white people were  'devils ' , originally invented in a laboratory by a mad scientist ...
      Public Enemy were  also vocal critics of mixed marriages and big fans of anti-semitic conspiracy theories . They did make some great records though , I'll grant you that .


    They're called 5%ers and white people were genetically engineered on the island of Patmos (also known as Phelan).

    I didn't know about these things until later. The rappers I listened to didn't speak at length about Islam, they only mentioned the words 'Islam', 'Muslim', 'Allah' (often in reference to themselves), 'As-salaam alaikum' and so on. It just meant that I became more open to 'Islam' that's all. Also i think you should read Blue Eyed Devil by Michael Muhammad Knight as it will explain to you a bit more about what 5%ers believe. There's actually a lot of depth to it - far more than there is in the Sunni Islam to which I was exposed.

    And Rakim Allah - come on'. There's a man worthy of that moniker Smiley

    Love,

    Abdalwali

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #16 - December 26, 2008, 07:23 AM

    Michael Muhammad Knight also wrote a whole book on the 5%ers, called, "The Five Percenters" Smiley.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #17 - December 26, 2008, 10:08 AM

    Michael Muhammad Knight also wrote a whole book on the 5%ers, called, "The Five Percenters" Smiley.


    Yes I have heard of it. I read the liner notes to Lord Jamar's 5%er Album which were written by Knight. I liked Blue Eyed Devil despite its ups and downs. I like that the book has an Islamic concept behind it - he's a 'wayfarer' (ibn as-sabil) travelling by Greyhound in pursuit of Islam in America. But not the tired, boring, dogmatic, intolerant, disingenuous, arrogant, misogynist, violent Islam that we see on the media and those of us who have been Muslims for any length of time can unfortunately bear witness to. I read it at just the right time - just after The God Delusion  grin12

    My wife committed apostasy with me and now my daughter doesn't have to grow up with some insane turd-features forcing her to go to Muslim youth groups and telling her that hijab is good. Allah (SWT) has blessed her Smiley

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #18 - December 26, 2008, 10:56 AM


    My wife committed apostasy with me and now my daughter doesn't have to grow up with some insane turd-features forcing her to go to Muslim youth groups and telling her that hijab is good. Allah (SWT) has blessed her Smiley

    masha Allah, you've been blessed. Smiley

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #19 - December 26, 2008, 09:12 PM

    Thanx for the nice reply abdalwali, before I reply to you, I want to comment on the koran verses you put forward. Being an Egyptian, I have a big issue with the translations I keep running into. So I always prefer to clear such translations before proceeding.


    Verse 49:13: "..Surely the noblest of you in the sight of Allah is he who is the most righteous."

    The word righteous is a weasel word. The word used in the verse is 'atkakom' which means the 'most pious'. This is not a verse that negates racism and objectifying of humans. Quite the opposite. This verse goes along a series of verses that separate (objectifies) good muslims, from muslims then non-muslims.

    Particularly disturbing is verse 49:14, which along separate True Arabs from Aarabs, the city dwellers from the desert dwellers. This serie of Aarab verses state that Aarabs will never be true believers and should never be trusted.

    There is another Three verses that mentions the Ajams, the unintelligible mules. Those who do not speak arabic well. Those Two sets of verses, are the basis (proof) of racism in the koran. There is no other verses in the koran that can counter the racist bits.

    We unfortunately can not just wish that the writers of the koran agreed with our 21st century views just so that we can feel better about it.


    Verse 2:138: "Allah's dye, and who is better then Allah at dyeing.."
    As per Tabari ~900AC, the dye in question is the dye of islam. In reference to the Christian baptism.
    That lines came as the koran was addressing the people of the book as to the difference between the religions.

    This is a novel use of the verse I never seen before. It is an absolutely false interpretation, as the meaning of the verse becomes much clearer when put in context of the rest of the paragraph. However, if this verse can be translated in a way that would convince some non-arab (ajam) reading muslim that he should not be a racist, well then, great.

    Verse 35:27 "Seest thou not that Allah sends down water from the clouds, then We bring forth therewith fruits of various hues? And in the mountains are streaks, white and red, of various hues and (others) intensely black."
    I took that verse and the one after it to be another One of those boring: Look at me, look at me, look at me, look at the Sun and the Moon, look at the Rains and Mountains type verses, believe in me or else.

    As if no other god ever laid claim to creating a sun and a moon and an earth and fruits. However it is nice to see someone using the verse to support non-racism. Of course, you will have to notice that at no place does the verse ask you to actually be 'nice' to those people of different colors. In fact the bits about: 'be nice to non-muslims' and to 'ajams' and to 'non-muslims' and to 'Aarabs', are seriously lacking in the koran.

    Personally I can not accept an 'honorable mention' of colored people in a book of 6200 verses, to also imply that we have to be nice to them.

    Verse 32:7 - Another one from the serie of "Look at me" verses.


    Quote
    'Once the Messenger of Allah while entering a mosque saw a man surrounded by the people. The Prophet enquired about the man. He was informed that the man was an 'Allamah. The Prophet enquired, "What is an 'Allamah?" The people told the Prophet, "'Allamah is a person who of all the people knows most about Arab lineage, Arab battles, the days of ignorance, and all about the Arab verses and Arab literature." Hearing this the Prophet remarked, "This is precisely the knowledge, the acquisition of which is neither of any profit nor is the non-acquisition of it of any loss."' [Kitab Al-Kafi, The Book of Excellence of Knowledge, 46-1]

    Allamah is rooted in Elm, which means knowledge & Science. Allamah is a person who posses some knowledge and science.

    This is exactly how Muhammad thought and acted and how his Companions and Kaliph acted for centuries after Muhammad's death, burning books and libraries by the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of manuscripts. Thank you by the way for showing me this hadith, I will store it in my library.

    Umar on the library of Alexandria: Any book against the koran, burn it, and any book in favor of the koran, we do not need it as we have the koran, burn it as well (700,000 manuscripts). Then he said something similar about the libraries of Persia before ordering the Persian manuscripts drowned.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #20 - December 26, 2008, 09:25 PM

    Quote
    I think you can also find examples of anti-racism - most famously in the Last Sermon and his appointment of Bilal ibn Rabbah as muezzin and treasurer of the early Muslim community.

    Which of the Two last sermons? The One recorded 1 century after Muhammad died or the One that showed up 1000+ years after muhammad died Smiley

    As for Bilal, Bilal was Black, he was an emancipated slace, and he was emancipated at a time when muhammad was weak and needed the support. Quite unfortunate that Muhammad stopped emancipating after he became powerful and quite the opposite went into the business of enslaving, offering a way out only through submission to his religion.

    However I do agree muhammad was not a racist by skin color, as the races of his slaves covered the entire rainbow so to speak. His doctrine definitely does appeal to people stung by color based racism. People who mostly did not see yet past the veneer of religious-based objectification of humans.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #21 - December 26, 2008, 09:31 PM

    As for the reasons Malcolm X left - they are indeed murky. The Nation of Islam maintains that Malcolm went on hajj in 1958 and he never mentioned anything about eating with white people with the bluest of eyes then. It was only after his second hajj that he had this epiphany. I don't say anything against Mr. Shabazz either as I admire him greatly. Nor can I help you regarding the real reasons he left the Nation of Islam. If I remember from his Autobiography (another book I haven't read for about 14 years) the 'official' reason from his side is that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad was having sex with some of his secretaries.

    Love,

    Abdalwali


    Having sex with his secretaries is perfectly halal if he followed the correct rules of nikah. The only issue I have with him having sex with his secretaries is if he covered up the rules he was playing with. That would be hypocritical. To show his umma one illusionary form of islam, yet practicing a more correct form of islam that he surely knew. That aspect of his relation with his umma is missing from my knowledge.



    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #22 - December 26, 2008, 11:58 PM

    Quote
    Umar on the library of Alexandria: Any book against the koran, burn it, and any book in favor of the koran, we do not need it as we have the koran, burn it as well (700,000 manuscripts).


    LOL. It's a pity that his idiotic ideas actually tranlsated into deeds.

    Also Elijah Muhammad taught monogamy.

    And thanks for your reply Baal. It's very interesting to read an Arabic perspective.


    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #23 - December 27, 2008, 01:08 AM

    Quote
    Umar on the library of Alexandria: Any book against the koran, burn it, and any book in favor of the koran, we do not need it as we have the koran, burn it as well (700,000 manuscripts).


    LOL. It's a pity that his idiotic ideas actually tranlsated into deeds.

    Also Elijah Muhammad taught monogamy.

    And thanks for your reply Baal. It's very interesting to read an Arabic perspective.


    Smiley

    I seriously doubt Muhammad actually wanted to see those books burned. He spent his life absorbing other books and cultures and he was a very well traveled man. At worst, he would have wanted to acquire them in his own library, no?

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #24 - December 27, 2008, 01:08 AM

    Also Elijah Muhammad taught monogamy.

    Bastard Smiley

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #25 - December 27, 2008, 10:24 AM

    I seriously doubt Muhammad actually wanted to see those books burned. He spent his life absorbing other books and cultures and he was a very well traveled man. At worst, he would have wanted to acquire them in his own library, no?


    Th prophet travelled and sought knowledge from far and wide. But once he formulated his ideology and became powerful I'm sure he would not have wanted any conflicting ones to challenge his.

    He did not have a physical Qur'an book while he was alive. Once he became powerful he destoyed all the idols and places of worship of the pagans of Arabia. With their idols their doctrines if written would also have been destroyed.

    Who knows what Muhammad's stance would have been had he been alive when the Arab armies went out on their conquests outside Arabia with a formalised Qur'an.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #26 - January 04, 2009, 12:24 PM

    I had taken a large amount of LSD in my youth and found the concept of speaking to ants not only plausible but quite nice really.


    I can relate to that  Cheesy

    <Bows theatrically> "A Thousand Salams Ya Maulana!" - A fascinating story - thanks  Afro

    Oh... and welcome Smiley
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #27 - May 12, 2010, 09:42 AM

    hey abdalwali, great story

    what are your thoughts now? On Islam, on God, on religion.

    Please share Smiley
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #28 - May 12, 2010, 10:36 AM

    Christ. Well, I don't know.

    About Islam I'm just as confused as I was back then. I've learned a fuck load from this board and continue to do so even if I don't like the meaner elements. I'm still interested in Islam, even if I can't believe, so I still read about Islam and Muslim things. I'm still agnostic. I don't think about God much. Perhaps I haven't understood what "God" is. Or perhaps there isn't one although I lean towards the former. In my job I come across people in the worst condition, like a woman who was gang raped by her partner and his mates. Where was God for her?

    I invested a lot in Islam and it did help me at a crucial stage so I feel it's not my place to be antagonistic or intolerant of it, even if it would consider me a munafiq, a zindiq or a murtad. 'Allahu Akbar' is the Muslim cry, but for me, Islam is much greater than Allah and Muhammad. Whether it's the Black Muslim cosmopolitanism of El Rukn or the Bektashi appropriation of the Sari Saltik myth in the Balkans, I love reading about Islam and Muslims.

    Having said that, Orthodox religion to me is junk whether Shia or Sunni. It's transparent misogyny is its most unforgiveable characteristic and also it's exclusivity. I'm a universalist. I have no choice in that as I have no land I can call my own, being in a state of cultural dislocation.

    About Islam's future I'm optimistic. I understand those who were brought up in the religion and oppressed and then found out that religion was an absurd lie. I understand that they hope Islam will fade to oblivion but when I read Amina Wadud or Scott Kugle, or indeed the Tailor, I am imbued with hope and that hope is for a new Islam.

    I believe in the values of the modern West but the West is hypocritical. In Australia they banned "Join The Caravan" but not "The Turner Diaries" and still claim there's freedom of speech. In France they talk about Liberty, Fraternity and Equality but they don't see the Algerians as their brothers. I find that sad because I'd rather live in the West than anywhere else. Perhaps that's what Islam means to me now. An alternative means to define myself within a culture which is still pluralist. One that enables me to sidestep painful questions about belonging and rejection. For Muslim citizenship one need only say a sentence to join and to be a Muslim in the West, for now, one can be what the fuck one wants to be.

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: As-Salaam Alaikum
     Reply #29 - May 12, 2010, 11:33 AM

    Christ. Well, I don't know.

    About Islam I'm just as confused as I was back then. I've learned a fuck load from this board and continue to do so even if I don't like the meaner elements. I'm still interested in Islam, even if I can't believe, so I still read about Islam and Muslim things. I'm still agnostic. I don't think about God much. Perhaps I haven't understood what "God" is. Or perhaps there isn't one although I lean towards the former. In my job I come across people in the worst condition, like a woman who was gang raped by her partner and his mates. Where was God for her?

    I invested a lot in Islam and it did help me at a crucial stage so I feel it's not my place to be antagonistic or intolerant of it, even if it would consider me a munafiq, a zindiq or a murtad. 'Allahu Akbar' is the Muslim cry, but for me, Islam is much greater than Allah and Muhammad. Whether it's the Black Muslim cosmopolitanism of El Rukn or the Bektashi appropriation of the Sari Saltik myth in the Balkans, I love reading about Islam and Muslims.

    Having said that, Orthodox religion to me is junk whether Shia or Sunni. It's transparent misogyny is its most unforgiveable characteristic and also it's exclusivity. I'm a universalist. I have no choice in that as I have no land I can call my own, being in a state of cultural dislocation.

    About Islam's future I'm optimistic. I understand those who were brought up in the religion and oppressed and then found out that religion was an absurd lie. I understand that they hope Islam will fade to oblivion but when I read Amina Wadud or Scott Kugle, or indeed the Tailor, I am imbued with hope and that hope is for a new Islam.

    I believe in the values of the modern West but the West is hypocritical. In Australia they banned "Join The Caravan" but not "The Turner Diaries" and still claim there's freedom of speech. In France they talk about Liberty, Fraternity and Equality but they don't see the Algerians as their brothers. I find that sad because I'd rather live in the West than anywhere else. Perhaps that's what Islam means to me now. An alternative means to define myself within a culture which is still pluralist. One that enables me to sidestep painful questions about belonging and rejection. For Muslim citizenship one need only say a sentence to join and to be a Muslim in the West, for now, one can be what the fuck one wants to be.


    Very interesting thoughts - thanks for sharing  Afro
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