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 Poll

  • Question: Is this a hateful site like FFI and jihadchat?
  • Yes - 2 (5.3%)
  • No - 36 (94.7%)
  • Total Voters: 38

 Topic: Is this place too hateful?

 (Read 10778 times)
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #30 - December 11, 2008, 08:59 AM


    But come to think of it, he did say some nasty things.

    NVM


    Nasty things? MN was a fucking PYSCHO!!!

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #31 - December 11, 2008, 11:06 AM

    Do you basically believe that I am setting the tone for a hateful site here?

    Not at all. I'm only new here but the reason I've stayed on this forum is because unlike FFI this forum has real discussions of Islam. I've learnt quite a lot since I've been here too and received some great advice too. This is the type of forum I was searching for and I'm glad I found it.

    'Hateful tone' is a meaningless phrase however. I'm sure many muslims who are clouded of their judgement of Islam will see this site as inciting hatred. It's all down to opinions. I'm not sure what Hassan was expecting on a site like this anyway, it's a forum for ex-muslims, one should pretty much expect many here to hate Islam to some degree as they have been betrayed and misled.
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #32 - December 11, 2008, 11:38 AM

    Please vote in the poll after reading this post: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=3898.msg100204#msg100204

    Do you basically believe that I am setting the tone for a hateful site here?



    Hi Berbs,

    Your poll options don't quite reflect what Hassan had said.  He said:

    Quote from: Hassan
    Faithfreedom and jihadchat hate Islam.

    They exist to destroy Islam, to fight Islam and eradicate it. They see Islam as Fascism that needs to be stamped out.


    and

    Quote from: Hassan
    Your own hatred of Islam means you will inevitably be inclined towards their view. As you say about faith freedom that it is OK but just got a bit crazy. You have no fundamental ideological difference with faithfreedom.


    In as far as 'hating Islam' goes, it would be hard to disagree with Hassan.  I'm also not sure what else you would expect from a forum that is for the support of ex-muslims.  These are the very people who have left Islam.  Even if only mild, isn't the act of leaving Islam an expression of 'hating' it?

    I also struggle to see the consistency of Hassan's argument here.  He has posted several videos that question, and even ridicule, core tennets of Islam and will be deeply uncomfortable for muslims to see.  How is that also not an expression of 'hating' Islam?

    For me, that doesn't mean that this site is as 'hateful' or as tolerant of hateful comments as FFI or Jihadchat.  As others have said, I think there has been hatred expressed towards muslims by both Ali Sina and the moderators of Jihadchat that I have not seen here.  And for me that is the key difference.  Calling muslims 'not human' absolutely sets the tone for all kinds of horrific hatred against muslims in a way that completely different here.  I don't think it is possible to claim that you 'love muslims' and yet use language like that.

    So my message to Hassan would be:

    If you want to have a site to support ex-muslims, you are going to have to allow discussion of Islam and it won't be surprising if those ex-muslims have bad things to say about their experience of Islam.  That doesn't mean that you need to allow expressions of hatred against muslims and I don't think that is allowed here.  Whenever people get together, you're going to get hate - that's just who we are.  Showing people their hate by loving them back is the best way to encourage people to change.  And no-one, even the most hardened terrorist, is beyong the hope of change.  But you can't do that unless you are there - taking the punches and giving back love...

    By all means, take a break - we all need one from time to time - but then come back - you are needed here, far more than I am.

    All the best,
    sparky
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #33 - December 11, 2008, 12:05 PM

    I think you've summed it up well sparky.  Afro

    I know I'm not needed here so much so I may just lurk for a while.

    Lurking now in progress....

  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #34 - December 11, 2008, 12:59 PM

    Good post Sparky. Afro

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #35 - December 11, 2008, 01:10 PM

    In as far as 'hating Islam' goes, it would be hard to disagree with Hassan.  I'm also not sure what else you would expect from ..

    Hi Sparky, good to see you again.

    The term hateful is reserved for hating people. The term is not used to comply with the definition of individual forummers of what we are allowed and not allowed to hate. So your entire post is correct but only if you were to view the world using hassan's mood. But since this is a vote, everyone is supposed to voice their 'own' view of the world. Not someone else's.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #36 - December 11, 2008, 02:05 PM

    Well said, sparky.    yes

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #37 - December 11, 2008, 02:09 PM

    I've been away for a few days, what the hell is going on??  Huh? I have a lot of catching up to do...
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #38 - December 11, 2008, 02:10 PM

    In as far as 'hating Islam' goes, it would be hard to disagree with Hassan.  I'm also not sure what else you would expect from ..

    Hi Sparky, good to see you again.

    The term hateful is reserved for hating people. The term is not used to comply with the definition of individual forummers of what we are allowed and not allowed to hate. So your entire post is correct but only if you were to view the world using hassan's mood. But since this is a vote, everyone is supposed to voice their 'own' view of the world. Not someone else's.

    Hi Baal,
    I'm not really sure I understand your post.  Surely it's important to know what we are voting on....

    The term 'hateful' was used by Berbs, not Hassan, and Hassan's post that she referenced for this poll talked about 'hating Islam' not about 'hating people'.  I don't think the term 'hateful' is necessary reserved for either people or things.  However, I do think these are different things and I don't think a hate for Islam necessarily means that a person will hate muslims.

    Hence my post above.  This was very much from my own 'view of the world' although I would definitely think it was worth investing in understanding Hassan's view of the world as well.  (or yours, or Berb's, or Cheetah's, or......)
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #39 - December 11, 2008, 02:17 PM


    Hi Baal,
    I'm not really sure I understand your post.  Surely it's important to know what we are voting on....

    The term 'hateful' was used by Berbs, not Hassan, and Hassan's post that she referenced for this poll talked about 'hating Islam' not about 'hating people'.  I don't think the term 'hateful' is necessary reserved for either people or things.  However, I do think these are different things and I don't think a hate for Islam necessarily means that a person will hate muslims.

    Hence my post above.  This was very much from my own 'view of the world' although I would definitely think it was worth investing in understanding Hassan's view of the world as well.  (or yours, or Berb's, or Cheetah's, or......)


    Sparky = inability to read between the lines.

    I agreed with most of your post, except where you psychoanalysed what Hass meant, and what I took it as.

    FFI/Jihadchat = hate sites = you agree with their aim = you are hateful.

    Regardless of how you saw it, or how he meant it, that is how I see it.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #40 - December 11, 2008, 02:21 PM

    I really doubt Hassan meant it that way.  He can speak for himself, but I truly doubt that he would ever have meant to call you hateful   parrot

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #41 - December 11, 2008, 02:25 PM

    Okay, pretty much done reading...

    This place is not hateful. Berbs, your views do not come across as hateful in any way. If anything, this place taught me to be a bit more open-minded and I appreciate the atmosphere on CEMB.

    I couldn't care less what the result of this poll is, just concerned about the outcome.

    I have not been here long enough to make a judgement, but from the time I've been here, I've pretty much only read logical and balanced debates (with some exceptions of course)...but I can't say that I've seen the moderators post anything that seems hateful or intolerant.

    I have equal respect for both Berbs and Hassan, there is nothing either of you have said that may have hateful undertones.
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #42 - December 11, 2008, 05:18 PM


    Hi Baal,
    I'm not really sure I understand your post.  Surely it's important to know what we are voting on....

    The term 'hateful' was used by Berbs, not Hassan, and Hassan's post that she referenced for this poll talked about 'hating Islam' not about 'hating people'.  I don't think the term 'hateful' is necessary reserved for either people or things.  However, I do think these are different things and I don't think a hate for Islam necessarily means that a person will hate muslims.

    Hence my post above.  This was very much from my own 'view of the world' although I would definitely think it was worth investing in understanding Hassan's view of the world as well.  (or yours, or Berb's, or Cheetah's, or......)


    Sparky = inability to read between the lines.

    I agreed with most of your post, except where you psychoanalysed what Hass meant, and what I took it as.

    FFI/Jihadchat = hate sites = you agree with their aim = you are hateful.

    Regardless of how you saw it, or how he meant it, that is how I see it.

    Do you not think that how he meant it is rather important when you are trying to decide whether to be offended or not?

    If 'reading between the lines' has led you to fall out with a friend unnecessarily, I'd rather not have that ability...
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #43 - December 11, 2008, 07:44 PM

    "Is this a hateful site like FFI and jihadchat?"

    Voted: No

    Haven't looked at jihadchat, but compared to FFI, I'd say no, from what I've read so far.

    Haven't peeked in here or FFI for a long while, but recently looked into both sites to see if there was anything interesting.

    And yes, I did find something interesting.

    Namely:

    A person who posted here regularily, who seemed to come across as sensible and articulate and commanded some degree of respect, ... now seems to post a lot at FFI, and his manner has completely changed.

    This sensible and articulate person, now is very abusive to muslims.
    This MAD DOG should be immediately hospitalised. (psycho bunny).
    (Aparently, rejoices when muslim children are murdered).
    PSYCHO is correct.

    I now wonder how many more such rabid dogs who hate all muslims are hiding in this forum?

  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #44 - December 11, 2008, 08:00 PM

    "Is this a hateful site like FFI and jihadchat?"

    Voted: No

    Haven't looked at jihadchat, but compared to FFI, I'd say no, from what I've read so far.

    Haven't peeked in here or FFI for a long while, but recently looked into both sites to see if there was anything interesting.

    And yes, I did find something interesting.

    Namely:

    A person who posted here regularily, who seemed to come across as sensible and articulate and commanded some degree of respect, ... now seems to post a lot at FFI, and his manner has completely changed.

    This sensible and articulate person, now is very abusive to muslims.
    This MAD DOG should be immediately hospitalised. (psycho bunny).
    (Aparently, rejoices when muslim children are murdered).
    PSYCHO is correct.

    I now wonder how many more such rabid dogs who hate all muslims are hiding in this forum?




    Psycho Bunny was banned from here, he is just a seething bag of hate, and for awhile I was fooled into believing he was a decent person, but I and many others know better now.  wacko

    Of course rabid nut cases could be hiding here, but a psycho killer could be hiding next door to you too, without proof nothing can be done.

     


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #45 - December 11, 2008, 08:29 PM

    Psycho Bunny was banned from here, he is just a seething bag of hate, and for awhile I was fooled into believing he was a decent person, but I and many others know better now.  wacko

    Of course rabid nut cases could be hiding here, but a psycho killer could be hiding next door to you too, without proof nothing can be done.


    Which means that when a person browses any site, to not take everything they read as gospel.
    Don't let anyone upset or offend you. (I know it can be hard. It is for me).

    Correction: Since all religions are lies ... please take everything as gospel. Cheesy

    BTW, Hi berberella and everyone.
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #46 - December 11, 2008, 08:35 PM

    BTW, Hi berberella and everyone.

    Hi. *waves*

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #47 - December 11, 2008, 09:56 PM


    I'm so new here I don't really feel qualified to weigh in too much.  And I've never been to those other sites.

    I would say that there are definitely some strongly negative sentiments expressed here against Islam, but that's to be expected.  I can't recall any generalizing statements against Muslims right off.

    Although to echo a point another member said earlier - there seems to be a lot of non-Muslims frequenting the site... (me included, I know)  I know my own reasons for coming here*, but I'm always skeptical of other non-Muslims who hang around these kinds of places...   wondering who's the vulture type who's just here to satisfy their own bashing needs.  I actually try and limit my posts on here, because it's feeling a little heavy on the non-Muslim side of things.

    There are a lot of very moderate yet vocal posters on here that keep it balanced... and hopefully that trend will increase as the forum finds a broader base.


    * I came here initially to ask a few questions.  And find I come back occasionally because it offers some balance to my other web addiction - Islamica.  And also for Hassan's blog updates.
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #48 - December 12, 2008, 07:05 AM



    And yes you are right, my experience with muslims has been so similar to what FFI sometimes says about muslims, I find it more difficult to accept the "happy life" version of it, but I DO accept that that was MY experience.

    I have stayed with this forum since we started it up because I believed a place like this, less hateful, for ex muslims was needed, why would I do that if I was going to then go and set the tone to recreate FFI?




    There's the rub. You have had so much trauma you  find it difficult to understand how many other people can be muslim and yet be perfectly content and not  hateful or malicious.

    This eventually affects the way you read posts here. Comments by other members that I feel have a sly undercurrent of bigotism and prejudice, you may not notice or you may even agree with.

    Here is my problem: You represent , to many Islam-haters, the ideal face of what Islam is "really about" . People will read your bio and think - "see these muslims are cruel, violent and misogynistic people, look what they did to her".

    You become the poster girl for them- an example of why muslims are horrible and dangerous people. The textbook stereotype of a "victim" of Islam.

    However , of the ex-muslims I know , there are hardly any who have gone through anything close to what you have.

    Why do most apostates leave Islam? Because we realise it's superstitious bollocks. End of story. But when I speak to "never muslims" they are often disappointed that my life doesn't have tales of being beaten up by my dad , groped by an imam or slapping my wife around because my dinner was cold.

    On the flipside to this Berbs, many Muslims find it easy to dismiss your story because they believe there are only 2 reasons why someone leaves Islam

    1)  Because they just want to go out and do all the things that are forbidden in Islam ie party , drink alcohol , eat haraam foods and have illicit sex.

    2) Or they have had a terrible experience with dosmestic violence etc and blame that on Islam not on the perpetrator.

    ie you confirm there expectation that no "rational" person would leave islam.

    So for both Islam haters and for strict muslims too , you are a stereotypical example that confirms their prejudices.


    ( i know I've gone i a bit off topic here , sorry).
     


    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #49 - December 12, 2008, 08:12 AM



    So for both Islam haters and for strict muslims too , you are a stereotypical example that confirms their prejudices.


    ( i know I've gone i a bit off topic here , sorry).
     




    Well that's a shame, because I can't change who I am or what I went through.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #50 - December 12, 2008, 08:14 AM



    And yes you are right, my experience with muslims has been so similar to what FFI sometimes says about muslims, I find it more difficult to accept the "happy life" version of it, but I DO accept that that was MY experience.

    I have stayed with this forum since we started it up because I believed a place like this, less hateful, for ex muslims was needed, why would I do that if I was going to then go and set the tone to recreate FFI?




    There's the rub. You have had so much trauma you  find it difficult to understand how many other people can be muslim and yet be perfectly content and not  hateful or malicious.

    This eventually affects the way you read posts here. Comments by other members that I feel have a sly undercurrent of bigotism and prejudice, you may not notice or you may even agree with.

    Here is my problem: You represent , to many Islam-haters, the ideal face of what Islam is "really about" . People will read your bio and think - "see these muslims are cruel, violent and misogynistic people, look what they did to her".

    You become the poster girl for them- an example of why muslims are horrible and dangerous people. The textbook stereotype of a "victim" of Islam.

    However , of the ex-muslims I know , there are hardly any who have gone through anything close to what you have.

    Why do most apostates leave Islam? Because we realise it's superstitious bollocks. End of story. But when I speak to "never muslims" they are often disappointed that my life doesn't have tales of being beaten up by my dad , groped by an imam or slapping my wife around because my dinner was cold.

    On the flipside to this Berbs, many Muslims find it easy to dismiss your story because they believe there are only 2 reasons why someone leaves Islam

    1)  Because they just want to go out and do all the things that are forbidden in Islam ie party , drink alcohol , eat haraam foods and have illicit sex.

    2) Or they have had a terrible experience with dosmestic violence etc and blame that on Islam not on the perpetrator.

    ie you confirm there expectation that no "rational" person would leave islam.

    So for both Islam haters and for strict muslims too , you are a stereotypical example that confirms their prejudices.


    ( i know I've gone i a bit off topic here , sorry).
     




    I'm afraid I have to disagree with the majority of what you said.

    I personally find Berberella balanced and above all honest. Although some of her comments against Islam may be harsh everything she says is based on fact or true in some way.

    I'll agree with you on one thing, I'm not a Muslim and never have been, but I too expect Muslims to leave because of the superstitious bollocks it is and because on balance as an ideological/cultural form it contains more negatives than positives.

    As you are an ex-Muslim reading your post I can only pick up a bit of residual stereotyping of Berberlla on your own part.

    Staying on this point for a moment, from an outsider's point of view, I can still sense from practically every ex-Muslim on this site some residual connection to the faith and culture.

    Ex-Christians or agnostics tend not to have this clingyness. Perhaps Hassan was right and it is very difficult to get it out of your system. If that is the case, then a message to Hassan,

    'Please cut us a bit of slack. Those of us on this site that you may perceive as haters or bigots are honestly trying hard to understand the difficulty you have had with working through this. The act of leaving your religion is not so difficult as it is in Islam. We realise that but will need more time to take the point on board.'

    The fact that it is so hard is an indication all the same IMO that Islam is perhaps nastier than you would care to admit even though you have left.


  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #51 - December 27, 2008, 08:26 AM

    I didn't read this thread but I read Hassan's comments in the other thread. Damn - there's a lot I didn't know about this forum and the posters here. And I respect you BerberElla for greeting my first post with a warning, especially after reading the link to FFI from the Call To Prayer thread.

    Astaghfirullah - if you'll pardon the phrase - I think I was a bit of a hater as well. Yet hatred of Muslims makes me sick to my stomach like hatred of Jews. I'm almost numb to the incessant trolling that plagues so many internet sites with rehashes of Qur'anic verses taken out of context, wicked hadiths etc.

    I am sorry and i think it's a good idea to be more civil in all walks of life - have some good adab insha Allah - and no, I'm not being facetious. This is a nice site, there are nice folk here, and I will try to be one of the nice folk too Smiley

    Good thread.

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #52 - December 27, 2008, 09:21 AM

    I didn't read this thread but I read Hassan's comments in the other thread. Damn - there's a lot I didn't know about this forum and the posters here. And I respect you BerberElla for greeting my first post with a warning, especially after reading the link to FFI from the Call To Prayer thread.

    Astaghfirullah - if you'll pardon the phrase - I think I was a bit of a hater as well. Yet hatred of Muslims makes me sick to my stomach like hatred of Jews. I'm almost numb to the incessant trolling that plagues so many internet sites with rehashes of Qur'anic verses taken out of context, wicked hadiths etc.

    I am sorry and i think it's a good idea to be more civil in all walks of life - have some good adab insha Allah - and no, I'm not being facetious. This is a nice site, there are nice folk here, and I will try to be one of the nice folk too Smiley

    Good thread.


    Y HALLO THAR. Well if it isn't Islam's George Carlin.

    You're just made of love and pettles! <3

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #53 - December 27, 2008, 09:31 AM

    Quote
    Y HALLO THAR. Well if it isn't Islam's George Carlin.

    You're just made of love and pettles! <3


    LOL. Thanks for the compliment.

    I wish!  grin12

    But I do love you Panopticon. At least you believe in a utopian ideal, a world where workers rule and not bosses, a world without rich and poor, where men and women are equal, where there is no distinction between city and country. I respect that. Allah (SWT) has blessed you with a good soul Smiley

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #54 - December 27, 2008, 09:44 AM

    But I thought Islam-o-nihilists respect nothing? Like you're just way too hardcore for that.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #55 - December 27, 2008, 10:14 AM

    Quote
    But I thought Islam-o-nihilists respect nothing? Like you're just way too hardcore for that.


    On the contrary - I respect everything. Or at least I'm trying. And who said I'm hardcore?

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #56 - December 27, 2008, 10:18 AM

    'Islam-o-nihilism' is so po-mo n gangaster, or something  cool2 Everything is nothing Shocked

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #57 - December 27, 2008, 10:21 AM

    Well...it was you who used that term.

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #58 - December 27, 2008, 10:27 AM

    You mean you're not a 'muslim nihilist', after all?  Huh?

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Is this place too hateful?
     Reply #59 - December 27, 2008, 10:34 AM

    BTW I edited my post in the other thread (getting my civil fo' shizzle on). Sorry.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
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