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Theme Changer

 Topic: Reforming Islam?

 (Read 7681 times)
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  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #30 - December 07, 2008, 03:54 AM

    For example, the verse 34 of Nisa allows a man to hit his wife. Now we have God's unchanging word interpreted as "Leave them alone!" instead of "Hit them!" Most Muslims would rather swallow that than leave Islam.

    ============

    Hassan, since you brought up this verse and the new interpretation of some Muslims of the word: "Edreboohun" (in Engl: hit them);

    I'm sure you know that:

    - The verb "Daraba", in the very formal Arabic, could mean many things other than "hitting;" it could mean the verb:

    "to go, or to travel.." these reformers use this last meaning and stick it to the verse above, I can simply say this is absurd because structurally the phrase is flawed, it's not easy to explain in Engl. for non-Arabic speakers, but it's like saying in Engl:

    "Go them, or travel them.." something that can't be followed by an object;


    let alone the Hadiths about hitting, as well as the tafsirs that never mentioned any meaning other than hitting.


    Thx  Afro

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #31 - December 07, 2008, 08:32 AM

    For example, the verse 34 of Nisa allows a man to hit his wife. Now we have God's unchanging word interpreted as "Leave them alone!" instead of "Hit them!" Most Muslims would rather swallow that than leave Islam.

    ============

    Hassan, since you brought up this verse and the new interpretation of some Muslims of the word: "Edreboohun" (in Engl: hit them);

    I'm sure you know that:

    - The verb "Daraba", in the very formal Arabic, could mean many things other than "hitting;" it could mean the verb:

    "to go, or to travel.." these reformers use this last meaning and stick it to the verse above, I can simply say this is absurd because structurally the phrase is flawed, it's not easy to explain in Engl. for non-Arabic speakers, but it's like saying in Engl:

    "Go them, or travel them.." something that can't be followed by an object;


    let alone the Hadiths about hitting, as well as the tafsirs that never mentioned any meaning other than hitting.


    Thx  Afro


    You're absolutely correct Emerald  - it is utterly absurd for them to claim it means "Leave them alone" and no-one who really understands Arabic would ever say that.
    One would have to have a preposition like "'an" so it would be "Wadriboo 'anhum" But that would just make a nonsense of the verse as a whole.

  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #32 - December 07, 2008, 09:03 PM

    I have a theory that a great many Muslims are closet Atheists or Agnostics, but are too lazy to challenge their comfort zone.

     Not just laziness...pride, fear, 'loyalty to the tribe' etc. may also play a role. I can also imagine that some Muslims simply cannot fathom the notion of being an 'atheist' or 'leaving Islam'.

    (same arguments may apply to other religions as well btw)

    Everytime "science" (which is falsely called so), "discovers" something new, evolutionists have to go back and change some parts of one of their theories. Amazingly enough, no scientific discovery has ever caused Biblical creationists to have to change their stand.
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #33 - December 08, 2008, 04:40 AM

    I just came across this article written by a another lesbian muslim  this one a British 'revert' .

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/04/gayrights-islam

    Quote
    I became a member of Imaan 18 months ago, when I stumbled upon their online forum almost randomly. I remember the moment so clearly, I kept pressing the back button on my browser, retracing the small steps from Google, thinking how come it took me so long, why didn't I find this before? I'd spent a lot of time in Muslim countries before that day, but had never before heard sexuality being discussed so honestly by Muslims.

    The possibility that Islam could have a space for me as a queer woman had seemed almost impossible to consider until that point. I had taken my shahada (testimony of faith) soon after reading the Qur'an for the first time, and never since doubted my belief in the truth of its message. Yet the actual reality of living as a Muslim was much harder as a gay woman, especially as the emphasis on heterosexual marriage is so pervasive in Muslim literature and consciousness.

    As a convert I wasn't surrounded by family pressurising me to get married ? as so many born Muslims are ? but almost every Muslim I met told me I needed to get married (and asap!) in order to learn about Islam. This made it hard to connect with my faith community, as I actually felt quite comfortable in my man-less life. I spent a many hours on the Imaan forum when I first joined, because although people do talk about sexuality and Islam, there's a lot of just hanging out; I guess, exploring alternative ways of being. At one point I decided I would never go to an Imaan event, simply because I didn't want to spoil the space that I'd found.

    I changed my mind during Ramadan 2007. I had spent the first part of the month in the Middle East, and coming back to London, breaking fast alone while listening to khutbah on the internet just didn't feel right. I hadn't been able to access the Imaan forum while away (many Muslim majority countries block such sites) and when I heard that Imaan was hosting regular iftars (breaking of fast), I finally thought, if not now, when?

    Attending that first social event was so frightening. To actually enter a room full of queer Muslims was such a bizarre thought, but actually it was just a room full of people breaking their fasts with dates and talking about their days. Still, I stayed nervous and must have only spoken a few words in that whole evening. Afterwards the sisters went for cake, and I was able to connect with them more easily. I don't know what I was expecting, but the fact that there were existent, full-of-faith women practising Islam, and also queer, was the most inspiring thing. I started attending Imaan social and religious events as often as I could after that, ranging from an Eid party to film shows, dinners, interfaith events ... and Gay Pride.

    I've been blessed, through Imaan, to have met ? and married ? my partner, to have found some astounding friends and, inshallah, to have also grown in my Islamic faith. Simultaneously, I've heard people talk of such horrific experiences that I've realised the discussions that need to happen within the Muslim community have barely begun. For the overwhelming majority of born Muslims, the possibility of finding peace between their sexual orientation and their religious identity looks like a mirage on a distant landscape. This is a human rights issue. This is also an issue that could, and should, be solved by looking at our Islam. Some of the most fundamental tenets of Islam are compassion for others, human dignity, respect for life in all its forms and charity. The fact that so many brothers and sisters are turning ? and being turned ? away from their faith communities, their mosques, their families and even from their trust in Allah, testifies that somehow this compassionate side to our religion is not being lived fully.

    The Holy Qur'an insists that there are multiple ways of understanding its message, and that overall, every believer is responsible for her own self, for her own choices, and for her own spirituality. When I read the Qur'an, the compassionate and merciful nature of our creator is the loudest message that I hear. In my understanding, the intricacies of human sexuality are not clearly spelt out within the Qur'an's pages. Neither am I convinced that the infamous Lut narrative is a straightforward condemnation of consenting same-sex unions, although I respect that many Muslims read it as such. There has always been sexual diversity in Muslim history. It has received dramatically different "Islamic" responses, ranging from complete condemnation to widespread tolerance, to institutionalisation within specific Sufi contexts. It is important to recognise that there is no one right answer to questions of sexual ethics, and to keep returning, as the Qur'an tells us, back to Allah.

    I think it is important to keep "subversive optimism" (as one gay Muslim website describes it) towards the future, without being naive about the pain involved for so many Muslims across the world. Just this year I know of two different lesbians who have entered into heterosexual marriages for the sake of their families, (and don't forget, for every woman in a non-consenting marriage, there is also a man and often children as well). However, I also know two others who have had inspirationally religious civil partnerships, and heard of a queer Imam (in America) blessing a same-sex nikah. While critics will continue to be dismissive of such unions, numerous queer Muslims are, quite simply, getting on with their lives and growing closer to Allah as they do so.

    It is not necessary to ask for absolute acceptance from our faith community; difference does not have to be threatening. The Qur'an tells us, as relevant as ever, that Allah:

        ... created you all from a single man and a single woman, and made you into races and tribes so that you should know each other.

    Yet is it too idealistic to ask for tolerance from our brothers and sisters in Islam? I guess on that question the only answer is "Allahu a'lam" (God knows better).

    Note: This is a personal view by the author and does not necessarily reflect the views of Imaan.


    Imaan is a social support group for lesbian gay, bisexual and transgender muslims.

    [url]http://www.imaan.org.uk[url]

    I've never understood how people can claim that homosexuality is acceptable in Islam. And though its nice that the author has found peace and happiness in her own life, I still think that she is fooling herself.



    I honestly hope this woman is not being serious about this article. If she is being serious, she needs to get a reality check. Islam never has, and still does not show tolerance towards homosexuals.

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #34 - December 08, 2008, 11:54 AM

    That women seems to be able to compartmentalize her thoughts quite well. It is something that every moderate believer needs to do.

    I'm really not sure what to think about trying to reform Islam. At first glance this seems a reasonable approach to deal with some of the worst aspects of the religion. But there's a few problems with this approach as well.

    First Islam has shown a remarkable resilience to progress and reform. Instead of leaving Islam and weakening it, these reformers chose to stay in the fold and strengthening Islam - at least numerically. We should ask ourselves: would really want a 'moderate' version of Nazism? Why would this be different with Islam? Why keep this zombie alive?

    Second, these moderates provide cover for the radicals. Peecee propagandists routinely use the few and far between true modern thinkers in Islam to 'prove' that there's nothing inherently wrong with the religion and that the 'few' extremists in Islam have really hijacked the religion.

    Thirdly. Though morally - as confused as they may seem - these moderates and reformers hold the high ground theologically and logically they do not. It's the fundamentalists who at least respect their own scripture enough as not to mangle it.

    Everytime "science" (which is falsely called so), "discovers" something new, evolutionists have to go back and change some parts of one of their theories. Amazingly enough, no scientific discovery has ever caused Biblical creationists to have to change their stand.
  • Re: Reforming Islam?
     Reply #35 - December 08, 2008, 12:03 PM

    Well let's face it: if you're going to have any sort of Islam around a moderate one is the preferable option. So, unless you can think up some way of making Islam vanish in a short period of time, which frankly I don't think is likely to happen, then the moderates are your best hope.

    Yes, moderates do provide cover for radicals. One of the problems with the Muslim world is the idea of solidarity. Many Muslims will not speak up against radicals even if they don't fully agree with them. Of course this leads to your third point, in that the radicals do have the texts behind them and this is one reason they are somewhat immune to criticism from other Muslims.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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