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 Topic: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern World

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  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern World
     OP - December 02, 2008, 03:55 PM
    Here's an interesting debate posted on another forum I visit about a discussion concerning 'Religious Belief in the Modern World', I thought I would share it here in case anyone is interested -
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6851159367044940771

    I'm only half way through but so far it has been a very interesting debate, Hitchens has raised some very excellent points against theism though he has a few holes in his argument, McGrath isn't doing too bad either but Hitchens arguments are far strong I think.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern Worl
     Reply #1 - December 03, 2008, 10:21 PM
    Great video. Christopher Hitchens is a really smart guy, I seen a lot of his debates, but I haven't seen him debate an imam before. I own one of his books, its a must read!!
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern World
     Reply #2 - December 03, 2008, 10:33 PM
    Which one? God is not Great?
    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern World
     Reply #3 - December 03, 2008, 10:33 PM
    I don't like Christopher Hitchens, his an asshole, he used to be pro-humanistic now he is more in line with Zionism. At one time he used to be pro-palastine and opposed Zionism and he is in full support of it.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern Worl
     Reply #4 - December 03, 2008, 10:42 PM
    Quote from: Pazuzu on December 03, 2008, 10:33 PM
    Which one? God is not Great?


    Yup, that one. Its a good book, you should read it. Smiley
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern Worl
     Reply #5 - December 03, 2008, 10:43 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on December 03, 2008, 10:33 PM
    I don't like Christopher Hitchens, his an asshole, he used to be pro-humanistic now he is more in line with Zionism. At one time he used to be pro-palastine and opposed Zionism and he is in full support of it.


    I disagree with Hitchens political views (Iraq War) But his views on religion are spot on.
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern World
     Reply #6 - December 03, 2008, 11:21 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on December 03, 2008, 10:33 PM
    I don't like Christopher Hitchens, his an asshole, he used to be pro-humanistic now he is more in line with Zionism. At one time he used to be pro-palastine and opposed Zionism and he is in full support of it.

    Me too, I was against both palestinians and israelis now i am on israelis side. And now I know a lot more facts about the region then back then, as I am sure is the same with Hitches. Go figure.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern Worl
     Reply #7 - December 03, 2008, 11:23 PM
    Quote from: Cool Canadian on December 03, 2008, 10:43 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on December 03, 2008, 10:33 PM
    I don't like Christopher Hitchens, his an asshole, he used to be pro-humanistic now he is more in line with Zionism. At one time he used to be pro-palastine and opposed Zionism and he is in full support of it.


    I disagree with Hitchens political views (Iraq War) But his views on religion are spot on.

    Many of those guys, Hitchens, Ralph Peters, etc.  are still quite disillusioned with iraq. Their ideas will come out a lot smoother if they let it go and admit to it as a mistake committed out of ignorance and/or greed.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern World
     Reply #8 - December 03, 2008, 11:30 PM
    I can take a stab at C.H's challenge:

    If a god said, (hypothetically speaking) he would send everyone to heave if the atheist believed in him?

    If the athiests accepts yes, then he would no longer be and atheist and would only be doing it as a believer, if he did not, then its only something (which is good) can be done by a believer.   

    Where's my check Mr Hitchens?
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern World
     Reply #9 - December 03, 2008, 11:55 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on December 03, 2008, 11:30 PM
    I can take a stab at C.H's challenge:

    If a god said, (hypothetically speaking) he would send everyone to heave if the atheist believed in him?

    If the athiests accepts yes, then he would no longer be and atheist and would only be doing it as a believer, if he did not, then its only something (which is good) can be done by a believer.   

    Where's my check Mr Hitchens?

    Can you define the challenge?
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern World
     Reply #10 - December 04, 2008, 12:01 AM
    Quote from: Baal on December 03, 2008, 11:55 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on December 03, 2008, 11:30 PM
    I can take a stab at C.H's challenge:

    If a god said, (hypothetically speaking) he would send everyone to heave if the atheist believed in him?

    If the athiests accepts yes, then he would no longer be and atheist and would only be doing it as a believer, if he did not, then its only something (which is good) can be done by a believer.   

    Where's my check Mr Hitchens?

    Can you define the challenge?


    Just watch the video he mentions it. I think he mentions it at the end too, first question at the end of the first question at the end. He also mentions its somewhere in the mid-section.

    Its something along the lines of, is there even one thing which would be considered ethical or moral only a theist could do, and an infidel could not do, he said name even one universally accepted morally good thing, only a theist could do, which would be defined by his deity.

    Best to watch the video though.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern Worl
     Reply #11 - December 04, 2008, 01:05 AM
    Quote from: King Tut on December 03, 2008, 11:30 PM
    I can take a stab at C.H's challenge:

    If a god said, (hypothetically speaking) he would send everyone to heave if the atheist believed in him?

    If the athiests accepts yes, then he would no longer be and atheist and would only be doing it as a believer, if he did not, then its only something (which is good) can be done by a believer.   

    Where's my check Mr Hitchens?


    And that's a fail.  Leaving aside that if God communicated such an offer to an atheist it would be irrefutable proof of God's existence, thus making atheism obsolete, an acceptance of that offer would not be a "good" deed anyway.    Murderers, rapists, child molesters, tyrants, war criminals and estate agents do not deserve to get to Heaven.  It would not be a good deed to send them there without even a need for their repentance or reform just on the basis of what someone else says they believe.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern World
     Reply #12 - December 04, 2008, 02:03 AM
    Why hypothetically speaking? Allah *is* saying he will send us to heaven and that he can forgive anything except disbelief.

    Most other gods are pretty much saying the same thing. What is new about this new hypothetical god of yours. Is it that your hypothetical god is hypothetically real? What difference does it make if a real god orders you to believe in it?

    And as Cheetah stated, why would it be good to go into the heaven/house/asylum of a being that will reward you based on how much you believe in it?

    Your test fails tut, because any being that asks you to 'believe' in it and promises to reward your belief, is *not* a good creature. And accepting its offer is not a good thing. We might do it because it is all powerful and will destroy us if we do not. But our belief in it should only be a ruse to buy ourselves enough time to learn how to neutralize such a tyrant.



    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern World
     Reply #13 - December 04, 2008, 07:15 PM
    Quote from: Cool Canadian on December 03, 2008, 10:42 PM
    Quote from: Pazuzu on December 03, 2008, 10:33 PM
    Which one? God is not Great?


    Yup, that one. Its a good book, you should read it. Smiley

    Aolready have, m,ate! I love it!
    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern World
     Reply #14 - December 04, 2008, 07:18 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on December 04, 2008, 01:05 AM
    Murderers, rapists, child molesters, tyrants, war criminals and estate agents do not deserve to get to Heaven.  It would not be a good deed to send them there without even a need for their repentance or reform just on the basis of what someone else says they believe.

    And hereine ;;oe lies the problem! A lot of Islamic hell covers disbelief in allah and muhammad . disgagreeing with muslims and their way of life earns you a strecht in hell! So it's a totalitarian political prison, with aonly a tiny minoryt of it consistging of going to hell for heinous crimes like murder, etc.
    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern Worl
     Reply #15 - December 04, 2008, 11:18 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on December 04, 2008, 01:05 AM
    Quote from: King Tut on December 03, 2008, 11:30 PM
    I can take a stab at C.H's challenge:

    If a god said, (hypothetically speaking) he would send everyone to heave if the atheist believed in him?

    If the athiests accepts yes, then he would no longer be and atheist and would only be doing it as a believer, if he did not, then its only something (which is good) can be done by a believer.   

    Where's my check Mr Hitchens?


    And that's a fail.  Leaving aside that if God communicated such an offer to an atheist it would be irrefutable proof of God's existence, thus making atheism obsolete, an acceptance of that offer would not be a "good" deed anyway.    Murderers, rapists, child molesters, tyrants, war criminals and estate agents do not deserve to get to Heaven.  It would not be a good deed to send them there without even a need for their repentance or reform just on the basis of what someone else says they believe.


    Still it would be universally accepted morally ethical for all humans to go to heaven. I don't see how you can reason a pedophile should go to hell, seems a little extreme to me.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern Worl
     Reply #16 - December 05, 2008, 12:10 AM
    Quote
    Still it would be universally accepted morally ethical for all humans to go to heaven. I don't see how you can reason a pedophile should go to hell, seems a little extreme to me.


    I didn't reason that a paedophile should go to hell - I never even mentioned hell.  I just reasoned that he didn't deserve to get to heaven, at least not without repentance.  So no, it is not moral at all for an atheist to make some private deal with God which would allow unrepentant paedophiles into heaven.  You failed Hitchens' challenge, try again.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern Worl
     Reply #17 - December 05, 2008, 12:22 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on December 05, 2008, 12:10 AM
    Quote
    Still it would be universally accepted morally ethical for all humans to go to heaven. I don't see how you can reason a pedophile should go to hell, seems a little extreme to me.


    I didn't reason that a paedophile should go to hell - I never even mentioned hell.  I just reasoned that he didn't deserve to get to heaven, at least not without repentance.  So no, it is not moral at all for an atheist to make some private deal with God which would allow unrepentant paedophiles into heaven.  You failed Hitchens' challenge, try again.


    It would not be an atheist making the deal, thats precisely my point only a theist could make such a deal! atheist is someone who denies or does not believe in the existence of god(s) so only a theist would be able to make such a morally ethical choice which an atheist could not possibly make. Thus, my response stands.   
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern Worl
     Reply #18 - December 05, 2008, 12:23 AM
    Quote
    It would not be an atheist making the deal, thats precisely my point only a theist could make such a deal!


    And an utterly irrelevant point it is too.  In order to meet Hitchens' challenge the deed has to be morally good.  The deed you suggested would be morally repugnant, and therefore you failed.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern Worl
     Reply #19 - December 05, 2008, 12:29 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on December 05, 2008, 12:23 AM
    Quote
    It would not be an atheist making the deal, thats precisely my point only a theist could make such a deal!


    And an utterly irrelevant point it is too.  In order to meet Hitchens' challenge the deed has to be morally good.  The deed you suggested would be morally repugnant, and therefore you failed.


    And sending everyone to heaven is not morally good how? I don't see how you could reason eternal peace and love is not universally morally ethical concept?
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern Worl
     Reply #20 - December 05, 2008, 12:40 AM
    Quote
    And sending everyone to heaven is not morally good how?


    I've already pointed this out twice - it is not morally good to send an unrepentant paedophile to an eternal reward because he hasn't earned it.  It is even more morally repugnant to send him to that reward on the basis of someone else's deal with God instead of judging him on his own actions.

    Quote
    I don't see how you could reason eternal peace and love is not universally morally ethical concept?


    That's not what I reasoned.  My reasoning is that your answer to Hitchens' challenge would deny justice to the victims of evil deeds, and unfairly reward the doers of those deeds.  It is therefore an immoral act, and you failed. 
     
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern World
     Reply #21 - December 05, 2008, 12:49 AM
    OK what if god said he would send the bad pepole to purgatory and all the good pepole to heaven same concept as before, slightly adapted. He never counted on an atheist winning the challenge I bet. I think he would be more then happy to be handing his check to an atheist though.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern World
     Reply #22 - December 05, 2008, 12:53 AM
    Lets get something right here, i agree with almost everything he said about religion, his logic was spot on, I have some contentions with this guy, I don't think he has any ethics though, his a clear cut supporter of Zionism, how does a man go from pro-Palestinian supporter to Zionism supporter?  Like Galloway said his a "slug and a slug always leave slime behind him" in my eyes he need to rejoin humanity as his a smart person. 
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern Worl
     Reply #23 - December 05, 2008, 12:59 AM
    Quote from: King Tut on December 05, 2008, 12:49 AM
    OK what if god said he would send the bad pepole to purgatory and all the good pepole to heaven same concept as before, slightly adapted. He never counted on an atheist winning the challenge I bet. I think he would be more then happy to be handing his check to an atheist though.


    That's what God is going to do anyway, so the act is still not a good deed.  Its no longer a bad deed, exactly - just an irrelevant and morally neutral deed.  You still fail.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern World
     Reply #24 - December 05, 2008, 01:06 AM
    no, god would only do it, if an atheist believed in him!
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern Worl
     Reply #25 - December 05, 2008, 01:07 AM
    Quote from: King Tut on December 05, 2008, 01:06 AM
    no, god would only do it, if an atheist believed in him!


    Then what would God do if the atheist said no?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern World
     Reply #26 - December 05, 2008, 12:16 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on December 05, 2008, 01:06 AM
    no, god would only do it, if an atheist believed in him!

    If God appeared before the atheist then I'm sure the atheist could no longer doubt him...
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Christopher Hitchens vs Alister McGrath: Religious Belief in the Modern World
     Reply #27 - December 05, 2008, 04:18 PM
    Quote from: King Tut on December 05, 2008, 12:53 AM
    I don't think he has any ethics though, his a clear cut supporter of Zionism, how does a man go from pro-Palestinian supporter to Zionism supporter? 

    As people get older, they acquire more information, as you acquire more information, you get to more accurate conclusions.

    Quote from: King Tut on December 05, 2008, 12:53 AM
    Like Galloway said his a "slug and a slug always leave slime behind him" in my eyes he need to rejoin humanity as his a smart person. 

    Who is the slug?
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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