Islam Australia

1« Previous thread | Next thread »
- spiral dive
- Poor Lil Lelliphant.
- Ex-Muslim
- bouncy bouncy bouncy
- offline
Islam Australia
OP - November 29, 2008, 11:06 PM

So I got a pamphlet through my letter box about why Islam is the true religion of god and it was from Islam Australia.

I decided to go on their website and read their 'manifesto' so to speak. There were a lot of articles, particularly on the oppression of women. Me being me, I had to quote the article and analyse it with my viewpoints backed up with Hadith and Surahs from the Quran.

This was my email:

Quote
To whom it may concern,

I have analysed and responded to the articles on your website regarding women.

Quote
WHAT IS THE ROLE OF MUSLIM WOMEN?

Presented at the 17th Annual Conference of the Federation of Australian Muslim Students and Youth (FAMSY) on Sunday 12 July 1998 at the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology.

I would like to start with a comparison between Islam and ancient civilisation.

Why compare Islam to ancient civilisation? We should be comparing it to current modern day civilisation where it is evident that Islam and feminism, or female equality cannot go hand in hand. Perhaps once a upon a time in the ancient world, Islam was the protector of women, but a lot has changed in the last couple of centuries.

Quote
Whenever the position of woman throughout history is mentioned, Islam emerges as a unique exception. The religion of Islam gave women an honorable status and established their dignified equality with men.
Is that why a woman?s status is half of that of a man? Is that why if a woman gets raped, she has to present four male witnesses to prove that it was rape and not her infidelity, or else suffer prosecution in an Islamic country?

Before the advent of Islam, women had no rights of any kind, or an independent identity in any form. In previous religions and systems, they were treated as mere chattels in the house, subject to be bought, sold or discarded at discretion. Some examples are:

Chinese Civilisation:

I quote from the book of Chinese civilisation, which reflects "The Chinese wisdom presumed that ?Women were created and placed the most inferior point of the human race, and should be given the meanest work?."

Greek civilisation:

From the book, The History of the World, I quote "In ancient Greece, the concept of woman was the view that her name, same as her body, should be concealed behind the doors of her home"

Hinduism:

In India, the ordinance of Manu implies several clauses handling the status of woman. Among them are the following:

Article No 148 reflects that "In childhood, a female must be subject to her father and later to her husband. When her Lord dies, she will be subject to her sons or his next of kin. For a woman must never be independent.
So what defines an independent Muslim woman? One who submits to her husband?

Until late in the 18th century, the rites of Sati were practiced, in which a Hindu widow should burn herself on the pyre of her deceased husband.

This happened in the 18th century, women still get abused by their husbands in a Muslim marriage. They are subjected to being one of four wives. They are made to marry someone they do not love. They are not allowed to have emotions. They are reproductive vessels used to give birth to male heirs who can carry on the so called true religion of Islam.

The Qur?an clearly states in Surah 4:34:
Men are guardians over women because Allah has made some of them excel others, and because men spend on them of their wealth. So virtuous women are obedient, and guard the secrets of their husbands with Allah's protection. And as for those on whose part you fear disobedience, admonish them and keep away from them in their beds and chastise them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Surely, Allah is High and Great.

This gives implications of abuse, either physical or emotional where a woman is admonished for being disobedient, much like a child. Because of course, women are children through the eyes of Islam, they have to have male guardians. This does not indicate that Muslim women are more independent than 18th century Hinduism, or ancient Chinese civilisations. It indicates that they have a raw deal, even in Islam.

Quote
Judeo Christian:

In the Judeo Christian belief, women are regarded as the source of evil. Why? Because of her alleged Biblical role as the temptress who seduced Adam into disobedience to his Lord. By tempting her husband to eat the forbidden fruit, she not only defied Allah, but also caused humankind?s expulsion from paradise, thus instigating all temporal human suffering.

Islam also teaches the story of Adam and Eve. Women are seen as beautiful temptresses who, if not covered by the veil or accompanied by a male, will seduce other men and lose their virginity. Women don?t need protection, they have been given a mind of their own to make their own decisions. They don?t need to be put on a leash by patriarchal Islam.

Quote
Jahiliya (Era of Ignorance):

In Jahiliya, before Islam, the infant girl was buried alive. If a woman?s husband died, his son would own her and he might marry her or lock her in the house until she died. Women had no right to own or to inherit. Allah says in the Quran, "When the female infant is buried alive, is questioned for what crime she was killed."

And what happened when one of the non-believers was told his wife had given birth to a baby girl? "When news is brought to one of them, of the birth of a female (child), his face darkened and he is filled with inward grief! With shame does he hide himself from his people because of the bad news he has had! Shall he return her on (sufferance) and contempt, or bury her in the dust? What an evil choice they decided on!"

On the other hand, Islam is an egalitarian (equal) creed, which explicitly rejects such oppression. Men are not superior to women in Islam and women are not superior to men in Islam. Allah says in the Quran, "The best of you in the sight of Allah is the best in conduct and Allah consciousness" S49-13.

The death of female infants may not be practiced (much) in modern day Islam, but resentment from a husband towards his wife for giving birth to a female is practiced. Many divorces are carried out, or even just polygamy with hope that the next wife will give birth to a male heir.

Quote
The Prophet said, "All people are equal like the teeth of a comb. There is no merit of an Arab over a non-Arab or a white over a black person or of a male over a female. Only Allah-conscious people merit a preference with Allah". Another teaching is, "Women are the twin halves of men." It is therefore difficult to imagine twin halves who do not have equal rights.

If Muslims and non-Muslims are a product of Allah, why do Muslims go around despising all the non-Muslim ?infidels?. They should surely be more tolerant and accept that Allah will help those ?infidels? to find their way. Of course, Muslims would not believe this as they are indoctrinated to be intolerant.
Quote
In Islam equality in spiritual and moral duties produces equality in spiritual and moral rights. The Quran reflects: "For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast and deny themselves, for men and women who guard their chastity and for men and women who engage much in Allah?s praises. For them Allah has prepared forgiveness and great reward"

It is very clear in the Quran that Adam and Eve were both responsible for the first sin, both asked Allah for forgiveness and both were forgiven. The common belief in other Scriptures that Eve was the devil?s advocate is therefore a belief that is completely alien to Islam and Islamic teaching.

Is it true that a Muslim woman has the right to speak and share her opinion?

Like men, Muslim women are entitled to freedom of expression.

If a woman was entitled to free speech, then the Prophet would not have said:
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 67:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)."

If a woman is silent, that does not indicate her consent. It indicates that she fears. She fears the consequences of speaking up. Hence she has not got freedom of speech or expression.

Quote
It is reported throughout history that women not only expressed their opinions freely, but they also participated in serious discussion with the Prophet himself and other leaders of the Islamic State. Women were accustomed to question the Prophet while men were present. They were not embarrassed to have their voices heard, nor did the Prophet prevent their inquiries. One of these cases was the case of Khowlah Bint Thaalaba. She came to the Prophet (s) and complained about her husband and Allah revealed verses of the Quran while she was sitting and He resolved her problem. And the case of Omar (ra) when he was challenged, during his sermon, by a woman regarding the dowry is an example of women voicing their opinions and correcting a male. Omar admitted that the woman was right and he was wrong. Omar said, "Everybody is more knowledgeable than Omar." Furthermore, the Quran reflects the conversation between Sulaiman and Balqees. All of these examples support the fatwa that women are allowed to voice their opinions publicly for whatever has been prescribed for us. Allah tells us in the Quran that our speech must be just. The restriction is how we speak and that it should be a just speech.

Just and unjust speech, in Islam, is subjective. Everybody has their own interpretations, and that is why it is difficult to identify Islam as the true religion. The true religion would not have divides, the perfect book (supposedly the Quran) would not have flaws or contradictions, or literary errors. It would not be unclear, if it were the perfect book there could not be different interpretations of it.

Quote

The Role of Muslim Women

The status of Muslim women as defined in Islam. The woman is a mother. Paradise lies under the feet of the mother. As an authentic hadith teaches us: A man approached the Prophet and asked, "Who is the most worthy of my care?" The Prophet replied "Your mother", three times and then your father. A Muslim woman is also a daughter and a sister. Allah tells us that "He bestows female offspring upon whom He wills and bestows male offspring upon whom He wills".

Paradise lies at the mother?s feet? That is why when a mother forces a female child to go through female circumcisions (Female Genital Mutiliation), the child should agree to ensure her spot in paradise? That is why if a mother beats her child as I have witnessed, she should suppress her tears and take the beating as she is obeying her mother therefore granting herself a spot in heaven? Putting paradise at ANYONE?S feet leads to oppression, as you have to look up to that particular human being, and human beings are liable to flaws.

Quote
A Muslim woman is also a wife who is a source of comfort for her husband as he is to her. "And among His signs is this, that He created wives from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your hearts."

Women make up half of society and they are responsible for nurturing, guidance and reformation of the subsequent generations of men and women. It is the female who imbues principles and faith into the souls of the nation. A woman?s responsibility in faith is exactly the same as that of a man. Women are to pray, fast, give charity, perform the pilgrimage and perform other forms of ibadah. A woman is rewarded for this just like a man. A woman must believe in the Oneness of Allah, the Books of Allah, the Angels of Allah, the Prophets of Allah, the Day of resurrection, the Day of Judgment and heaven and hell, and predestination.

A woman also has to cover herself up from head to toe. A woman has to obey her husband, if he does not wish for her to leave her room, she has to obey. If a woman disobeys she has to be beaten to a pulp or left alone for the husband to go onto his next victim, his next wife. A woman has to ensure she does not go horse riding with the fear that her hymen could break and that would mean she is no longer a virgin. A woman cannot live her life like a man, she has to be there to serve a man?s needs and desires, in Islam. A woman cannot enjoy her own life, the life that Allah supposedly gave to her.

Quote

Does Islam Permit Women to Seek an Education?

Islam has made it a duty on every Muslim male and female to gain knowledge, which is considered to be a superior act of worship in Islam. Preventing a Muslim woman from gaining an education is therefore an un-Islamic act.

Allah asks in the Quran, "Are those who know equal to those who know not?"

Allah also tells us that He will raise those who believe among you and those who have knowledge to high ranks. A famous hadith teaches us to "Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave". In Islam, therefore both men and women are credited with the capacity for learning, understanding and teaching. One of the famous women in the history of Islam is the Prophet?s wife, Aisha. The quality for which she is remembered primarily is that of her intelligence and outstanding memory. She is considered as one of the most reliable sources of hadith by virtue of these qualities. She has reported more than 200 hadith and is regarded as one of the teachers of the hadith. Aisha used to teach men and women at the Prophet?s masjid.

Generally speaking, in the Muslim olden world, there was no bar or prohibition on women pursuing studies. On the contrary, Islam encouraged it. As a result of this, many Muslim women became teachers, such as Nafisa, a descendant of Ali, who was such a great authority on hadith that Imam Ashafii sat in her circle when he was at the height of his fame and Shaikha Shahda who lectured publicly in one of the principal mosques of Baghdad to large audiences on literature and poetry and was one of the foremost scholars in Islam. There are numerous other incidents of educated Muslim women.

I would like to mention something very important. That is, knowledge is not only limited to the religious knowledge but includes all forms of knowledge. Acquiring knowledge enables Muslims to get a better perception and understanding of the world around us and make us more conscious of Allah. Brothers and Sisters: the Prophet, peace be upon him, had put so much effort into reviving the ummah during that time. He began the process by tackling individuals, then the family and finally society. This is the point where the Muslim women play the role as the backbone and vital elements in the establishment of the society. "The believers men and women are protectors one of another, they enjoin what is just and forbid what is evil" IX-71.

A Muslim woman as in this verse has to participate in Islamic dawah. Evidences from the Seerah of the Prophet proved that the Sahabiat (Muslim women at the prophet?s time) were not ignored in the Islamic movement. Asma, to quote one of the many examples, was one of the first few who knew of the Prophet?s plan to leave for Madinah during Hijrah. On the night of their departure, Asma was the one who prepared a bag of food and a water container for the Prophet (s) and Abu Bakr for their journey. Soon after the immigration of the Prophet, she left Mecca, during her pregnancy, traveling a long journey.

Sisters must be given the opportunity to work for Islam. I would like to quote a statement of Yusuf Al-Qaradawy: "One of the important social sectors which much be reached by the Islamic awakening is the sector of women. Islam is not a man?s religion but it is a religion for all men and women. In terms of number, women constitute more than half of the society. Hence, the voice of Islamic dawah must reach Muslim women. Women must be involved in Islamic work, even at leadership levels". Sisters can play a vital role in the Islamic organisation and Islamic society.

This is a common societal problem in Muslim families. Perhaps Muslims should unite against this issue as so many girls are pulled out of school to get married, and they are encouraged to learn how to cook more than they are encouraged to become more learned of the world. Knowledge is power as Orwell said, and some Muslim families do not wish for their female daughters, wives or sisters to have that power.
- spiral dive
- Poor Lil Lelliphant.
- Ex-Muslim
- bouncy bouncy bouncy
- offline
Re: Islam Australia
Reply #1 - November 29, 2008, 11:06 PM

Quote
What are the roles of men and women within a Muslim family?

In the Islamic family, the role of men and women is complementary rather than competitive. The Quran makes it clear that "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women because Allah has given one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means" IV-34.

If women are weaker than men physically, then why did Hazrat Khadija fight? She should have sat at home and served the Prophet.

Quote
The Quran makes it clear that the husband has full responsibility for the maintenance of the family. The wife on the other hand is responsible for the welfare of the family. Their duties are described as equal in importance but not identical in substance. The qawama is merely a matter of leadership and directing in exchange for duties that should be performed. For it is the husband who pays the dowry and he is the one who provides the house.

Dowry is illegal in most (civilised) countries. Hence Islam is outdated. If dowry is still accepted in Muslim societies, again it shows that women are just objects that are sold to men.

Quote
Sisters, I would like to convey an important message to you. If you dearly love Allah, you will accept everything He says and orders us to do. Allah is the All Knowing of His creation and knows what is best for them. I accept what Allah orders me to do because I am positive that Allah is wise and knows what is best for me. The Prophet taught us that if a woman dies and her husband is pleased with her, she will enter Paradise.

Of course, if a husband is displeased with his wife, her ticket to paradise is put in the shredder and torn to bits. If this isn?t evidence that Islam is a religion for men, then I don?t know what is. Actually, scrap that, I do know what else proves that it is the religion for man, read my other points.

Quote
Is there a gap between Islamic principles and the practice of Muslims?

Unfortunately, many Muslims are unaware or ignorant about true Islamic teachings, due to a lack of education. Such Muslims practice a distorted Islam, which has been contaminated by their cultural traditions, which have no Islamic basis.

I have read the Islamic bases and the ?true? Islam you mention seems much worse than the ?distorted? Islam that people supposedly practice. If it were the true religion, it could not possibly be distorted. The Quran would not be so unclear and every Muslim sect would live in harmony. The reason for this divide is Islam itself.
Quote
This impure Islam is not based on any authentic Islamic sources, the Quran or the recorded teachings and practices of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.
This is the typical argument whenever one argues with Muslims of various different sects. ?My version is better than their version? (which, also refers to other religions ? it?s just like a silly argument between children that ?my imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend?)

One should therefore judge a religion by its teachings and not by people who claim to be its followers. The issue of feminism in Islam is meaningless. The coming of Islam has brightened the life and future of women, in which Islam has lifted up their level to the same level as men. Islam upholds women to the highest and most respected position. Islam has also protected women from being mere objects to satisfy the desires of men. The Quran describes women as a symbol of beauty, justice and love. Muslim women have also been acknowledged for their important role in the establishment of the Islamic community.

Of course the issue of feminism in Islam is meaningless, because feminism and Islam cannot go together! Women who fight for independence, who fight for their rights over their own bodies don?t exactly have it easy in Islam. Islam does not uphold women to the highest and most respected position, they are forced to cover up as their beauty will make men lose control, and we can?t have that now can we? Because men are not responsible for self control, women are responsible. If men and women were equal in Islam, women would not be subjected to forced marriages, and other horrible experiences. Islam has objectified women more, by making them reproductive vessels, they ARE there just to satisfy men. That satisfaction could be in the form of a good, obedient wife who gives in to sexual intercourse whenever the husband wishes to do so, give birth to Muslim kids, cook a nice meal and not have her own opinion about her body. The Quran describes women as the symbol of beauty, but also states that the beauty should be hidden away. It also states that the beauty should listen to her husband or fear admonishing or beatings on a more extreme level.

I expect you to respond with many excuses for religion. The case of religion, including Islam proves that the role of women has not changed since the beginning of time and that women are here for a particular purpose which does not include their own free will to enjoy their life. Women are subjected to honour killings, domestic violence, rape, and emotional abuse throughout their lives in the Islamic world. They are interrogated in Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia to ensure that they have a male relative chaperoning them when they are going out. All that is missing is the leash.

You may make excuses and say that rape, domestic violence and other social ills occur in the Western world, but my response is, they do not follow religion. If a world with and without religion has the same consequences, there is no purpose of religion. Morality evidently has not been enforced by religion, only hatred, fear and oppression.

I have also analysed some of Aminah Mah?s article on the oppression of Muslim women.

Quote
Oppression of Muslim women

There is some truth in what these women had seen. Muslim girls, in countries such as France, Singapore and even Turkey, not allowed to go to school with their head coverings suffer oppression. Girls deprived of their rights to education, to speak their minds, girls forced into arranged marriages, women suffering domestic violence, honour killings, so on and so forth, are oppressed.

One could perhaps give non-Muslims the excuse for oppressing Muslim women due to their lack of understanding, their fear of the unknown, and even blame the sources of their information. Yet when Muslims oppress Muslim women, one must make a distinction between what constitute cultural practices and what is in the religion.

Actually it quite clearly states in the Quran in Surah 4:34 that a woman must be obedient to her husband or suffer the consequences. This is a classic example of oppression. It?s not cultural, it comes from the Quran.

Quote
The Islamic teachings are not always practised by Muslims. Many cultural practices, even beliefs, are sexist. Throughout history, up till now, millions of women still suffer oppression. Muslim men who ill-treat their womenfolk lack understanding in the essence of Islamic teachings. They often quote verses out of context and use them to oppress women.

I have read the Quran, and there is only one context to take it in, it is not exactly a literary piece of art work. It cannot be as that would mean that only those who are skilled in literature, be it Arabic, English, Dutch, etc, would be able to take the correct context of it. This is not the case as many uneducated Muslims are able to read the Quran, but analysing a piece of text like that means it will be taken in different ways. Which brings me to the point that it is not in fact the perfect book, as the perfect book cannot be taken out of context.
Christians can argue that people who read the Christian bible are taking it out of context. Who?s to say that the Bible is actually the true word of god? Or the Torah, the Sanskrit, etc?
Quote
These men are experts in claiming their rights, but are rather ignorant in fulfilling their rights towards their wives and daughters. As long as one continues to remain in a state of ignorance, the problem will persist. These people will never be able to do justice to a religion that came to liberate the weaker members of the society, namely, the women, the poor and the downtrodden from tyranny and injustice.

Women have a purpose according to Islam, so they are not being downtrodden through Islamic eyes. They are fulfilling their purpose.
Quote
The status of women in Islam

What does Islam say about women?

Let me take you back to more than 14 and half centuries ago. Women in the pre-Islamic Arabia were among the most despised, ill-treated and oppressed of all. Families would dig a hole in the ground at the time a woman was giving birth, and as soon as the baby was born and had its gender identified, one of two decisions would be made. If the baby was a girl, she would be buried there and then; if it was a boy, the family would rejoice and celebrate!

Why is it that whenever there is a discussion about Islam and women, the comparison is made between Islam and the treatment of women before Islam? How about modern day? Women outside of Islam have it a lot easier and live a better lifestyle than Muslim women. They are able to be moral without Islam. If you need the fear of a god, or a hell to be a good person, you are not really a good person, you are doing it for selfish purposes.

Quote
Regarding this evil practice, Allah gave severe warnings to those who took part in this monstrous crime in a number of places in the Qur?an, that they will, on the day of Judgment, be questioned as to why the baby girls were murdered in this manner? Those people will surely have to suffer the consequences of their evil doings. (At-Takwir 81:8, 9, 14).

In reality, more and more women are attracted to Islam, partly due to the status Islam gives to women. Ibrahim Hooper, national communications director for the Council on American-Islamic Relations commented that the majority of converts are from the African American community and women of European heritage. (O?Crowley, 1999) (http://www.nj.com/features/ledger/bo695c.html)

In Australia, it was believed that 4 out 5 converts are women. (Buckley, Salam 1995)

I have also known of many women as well as men who have converted to Islam. I have also known of women as well as men who have renounced Islam after their conversion as they realise what Islam actually is. Like I have mentioned before, Muslim baby girls may not be murdered nowadays, but Muslim fathers still prefer a male heir. This is not a cultural viewpoint; it is because women are such a hassle in Islam as they have to preserve their dignity. Muslim men have it much easier than Muslim women.
Quote
Allow me to share some evidences from the authentic sources of Islamic teachings, namely the Qur?an, the words of God, and hadith, which are narrations from the teachings, sayings and actions of the Prophet (pbuh).

In a hadith, narrated by Al-Mughira: The Prophet (pbuh) said: Allah (swt) has forbidden for you

1. to be undutiful to your mother

2. to bury your daughters alive

3. not to pay the rights of the others (charity etc.)

4. to beg of men (when it can be avoided).

(Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 3, Hadith no. 591)

The rights of wives are not mentioned here. That?s convenient.
Quote
Right to choose marriage partner and the right to fair treatment:

?O ye who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, ?live with them on a footing of kindness and equity if ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.? (4:19)

The Prophet (pbuh) in his attempt to abolish the unfair treatment of girls among the Arabs, left a number of narrations that ?daughters were to be cherished, educated and supported until they reached the age of maturity: the reward for doing this was to be no less than Paradise.? (Al-Khattab, 1997, p.34).

There are so many contradictions in the Quran and it is funny that Muslims who argue that Islam is peaceful and does not oppress women always pick and choose the Surah?s from the Quran that mention some act of kindness, completely ignoring a few verses later where women are subjected to neglect or admonishment. ?It?s okay that you have 3 other wives honey, as long as you treat me with kindness and equity, I don?t mind you sleeping with 3 other women?

Quote
Conclusion

Mankind will continue to commit injustice, again and again, out of greed, out of hunger for power, out of selfish desires to conquer, to possess, if we forget that there is always the Supreme power over us. No matter how powerful we think we are, no one can escape death. Let us not forget, that one day, real Justice will be brought to our reality. Ignorance caused Aminah Assilmi to suffer oppression, ignorance caused Muslim women to suffer oppression, and women around the world will continue to suffer oppression if we neglect our duty to find out what equity and equality really mean. No one knows it better than the Creator Himself. For He is the Sole Designer of the universe, the Creator of man and woman, Who alone has the definite knowledge about how human should best treat each other, Who knows the very purpose of our existence. All we need to do, is to submit. The many questions people have about life have been answered to readers? full satisfaction in the Qur?an, leaving many awestruck, at the precision, the authoritative and majestic tone, and the many facts revealed so long ago but have only been proven in recent years. The miracle of the Qur?an will continue to convince those who look for answers about life, with a truly open mind. Would you care to read it before it is too late?

If Islam was the true religion, it would not allow for the oppression of women in the way that it has taken its toll. It would be able to fight that oppression, but the truth is that it is ignored over and over again. Fighting the ?infidels? is a bigger priority than granting Muslim women rights. A woman is designed to submit, to her husband and to Allah, despite her treatment. The Quran is not a miracle; it is full of flaws, contradictions and errors. It has no scientific reasoning. I have read it with an open mind and realised that it really is not the religion for me, nor is any religion. I am kind and giving, I am a moral person, but have no faith in a ?supreme entity?. If Allah is merciful, he will put me in the supposed paradise as I am a good person.

From an ex-Muslim Atheist and her partner.[/quote]

The response I got was naturally of evasion:

Quote
Hi,

I haven't read your email and am not interested in doing so because it is easy for people to send any rubbish they like via emails. However, if you live in Australia, may be we can arrange a meeting to sit and discuss face to face inshallah?

To which I replied:

Quote
As an ex muslim, I do not feel safe meeting anybody from online.

Why give out an email if you will not reply? Also, you say people can send any rubbish via email so you are not interested, yet you impose your views through people's letter boxes, like the green booklet you recently posted around. A little hypocritical for you to refuse to read text when that is your deliverance method for your message.

Of course, it is a little unfair for you to brand my email rubbish when you haven't even read it yet. But that is okay, I expected such a response. A little disappointed that I didn't get a more detailed response to it as I spent my time reading through your articles.

Shame really.

If you aren't going to read or reply to emails it's probably not a wise decision to print your email address on your publication and put a webform on your website.

Take it easy mate.

I know my analysing the article wasn't exactly thorough, but I was short on time. I do want to go through it again and add and remove stuff, any suggestions welcome I believe people on CEMB are much more well read than I am with regards to Islam (not just regarding the oppression of women but other issues in Islam too).
- Iggy
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Islam Australia
Reply #2 - November 30, 2008, 03:31 AM

Well done.

"Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
- Emma Goldman
- Baal
- Arab Slave Overlord
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Islam Australia
Reply #3 - December 01, 2008, 12:16 AM

Good Job, Good Practice,

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
- Nour
- Ex-Muslim
- Misanthropic ex-'revert'
- offline
Re: Islam Australia
Reply #4 - December 01, 2008, 12:27 PM

Fantastic! I don't think I could have the courage to rebut these people's arguements the way you did. But then again, I live in the UK where I'm more likely to receive death threats for speaking out in such a manner (and I already have on IOL and received a threat to have my throat slashed!).

Another point to add to your arguement would be regarding the comparison of women in Islam to women in ancient societies; no one refers to the ancient Greek, Chinese or Roman texts when it comes to modern jurisprudence and as far as the Manusmritis of India, most modern Indians ignore them anyway (I have this on authority from Indian acquaintences).

And why is it that most societies which are seen today as 'backward' are 'Islamic' societies?

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

The sleeper has awakened - Dune

Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
- spiral dive
- Poor Lil Lelliphant.
- Ex-Muslim
- bouncy bouncy bouncy
- offline
Re: Islam Australia
Reply #5 - December 01, 2008, 01:40 PM

What's funny is, I haven't received a response
- Calm
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Islam Australia
Reply #6 - December 01, 2008, 01:41 PM

You pwned them
- spiral dive
- Poor Lil Lelliphant.
- Ex-Muslim
- bouncy bouncy bouncy
- offline
Re: Islam Australia
Reply #7 - December 01, 2008, 01:57 PM

I'm going to make a pamphlet like the one they put in my letter box and will post it around. The title will be "Islam: through the eyes of an ex-Muslim"
- Calm
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Islam Australia
Reply #8 - December 01, 2008, 01:58 PM

do u have ur blog?
- spiral dive
- Poor Lil Lelliphant.
- Ex-Muslim
- bouncy bouncy bouncy
- offline
Re: Islam Australia
Reply #9 - December 01, 2008, 02:37 PM

I have a blog but it's not related to Islam.

The only reason I want to print a pamphlet is because that was their method. Have you ever seen Saffron vs. God, where Saffron does what the Mormons do and goes around knocking on people's doors to promote Atheism?

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=JOZQsuLDqBk
- Calm
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Islam Australia
Reply #10 - December 01, 2008, 02:42 PM

Good 1
- sojournerlumus
- Pub Regular
- Belief beggars reason.
- offline
Re: Islam Australia
Reply #11 - December 01, 2008, 07:00 PM

Well done Heartbomb. You've certainly got some patience and some stamina Stuff it to 'em.
Liked the vid. It's given me ideas.

Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
1« Previous thread | Next thread »