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 Topic: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?

 (Read 13162 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     OP - November 27, 2008, 02:30 PM
    Why is it that it happens? I thought God would protect the young and defenseless?! I am saddened by all the hurt and pain which is suffered by many and yet we find out too late and nothing can be done to protect them.

    Does the actions and consequences of the horrific cases like that of Baby P have higher and divine purpose? Will the death of the little boy serve a purpose in years to come? It has us talking about it and maybe more attention is being paid to other abuse cases all over the World and other children might have been saved because of his death?
    The last stand of frej
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #1 - November 27, 2008, 02:37 PM
    That's why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation. (as per my signature)

    People spend so much time wondering why god allows this, if we stopped thinking of why god allows it and start thinking of why people do it, then maybe we can make more progress changing it.

     Smiley
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #2 - November 27, 2008, 02:45 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on November 27, 2008, 02:37 PM
    That's why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation. (as per my signature)

    People spend so much time wondering why god allows this, if we stopped thinking of why god allows it and start thinking of why people do it, then maybe we can make more progress changing it.

     Smiley



    I remember what you said a while ago Berbs, that not anyone should be allowed to have children. If they can't look after them then they should be sterilised. It's too easy for mental cases like that of the Mother and her BF to start "families" while still having problems of their own. It is also easier to take God out of the equation but then what do we do in the meantime? All I know is that this baby shouldn't have died a lonely and painful death and more could have been done to help him. "In God we trust" is a notion that makes less sense now than ever before. Cry
    The last stand of frej
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #3 - November 27, 2008, 02:52 PM
    I still agree, not everyone should be allowed to have children.  I know crack heads who give birth and have the babies removed time and time again from them, yet breed again and again, no human rights activist will sway me on why they should be sterilised, or at least have a coil implanted whether they want it or not.



    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #4 - November 27, 2008, 02:53 PM
    Well, we can just do our part in the mean time. Baby P case was so very sad.

    Islam has tought this dunya is temporary and here after is important. Hinduism teaches that this world is an illusion. All the religions share a join responsibility of ignoring the very real issues in the society and hopin to some imaginary afterlife.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #5 - November 27, 2008, 03:25 PM
    Perhaps abused children are the reincarnated souls of past evildoers such as Jeffrey Dahmer and the Yorkshire Ripper come back as babies in abusive homes in order to play out their karmic debt to the world.
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #6 - November 27, 2008, 03:28 PM
    Are you serious or being sarcastic?
    That is why I tend not to believe in Karma. Because, people go for easy explaination such that 'May be he/she deserved it forgetting the responsibilities '
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #7 - November 27, 2008, 03:46 PM
    I realise your comment was tongue in cheek, Nour, but I do agree with Learn2bCalm that the very idea of karma is a cop-out and not a little sick. You can't help wondering where the karma nuts believe the baby Jeffrey Dahmer and the baby Peter Sutcliffe came from in the first place and why, can you. Nonsense. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #8 - November 27, 2008, 03:58 PM
    Well, to you your belief, and to me, mine.

    So be it.
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #9 - November 27, 2008, 04:06 PM
    No, I did not want to say ur belief is invalid or something. I was just having doubts.
    This is what my grandma (a staunch believer in Karma but a truly good human) says:

    When bad things happen to her, she tells God is giving her opportunity to get rid of some unwholesome karma. If bad things shappen to others she tries to help them as much as possible and tells 'whatever is their karma, it is between them and God, for me God is giving me chance to serve him, as everyone is his manifestation' Well, it works for her, I doubt her. 
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #10 - November 27, 2008, 04:52 PM
    Quote from: Rubina on November 27, 2008, 02:30 PM
    Why is it that it happens? I thought God would protect the young and defenseless?! I am saddened by all the hurt and pain which is suffered by many and yet we find out too late and nothing can be done to protect them.

    Does the actions and consequences of the horrific cases like that of Baby P have higher and divine purpose? Will the death of the little boy serve a purpose in years to come? It has us talking about it and maybe more attention is being paid to other abuse cases all over the World and other children might have been saved because of his death?


    Good question, Ruby.

    When I heard about tragic cases or abuse, murder and unbelievable suffering, I used to say it must serve some higher purpose and that God will recompense them in the next life.

    But it still troubles me. It just seems so cruel to let babies and children die and let parents suffer agonizing pain. Or people who endure dibilatating diseases or handicaps - or the parents who must care for them all their lives, or the millions of people living in abject poverty or are homeless, jobless, penniless through no fault of their own etc etc...

    Why would God do that? And is it enough to then say when they get to heaven 'It's OK it was for a higher purpose, but now I will let you have a wonderful time' WTF??? Do you realise how many years I suffered and despaired God?

    As for those who feel so hopeless and desperate they commit suicide - Oh no... not allowed to do that...

    If there is a God - he's got a hell of a lot of explaining to do.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #11 - November 27, 2008, 06:31 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on November 27, 2008, 02:37 PM
    That's why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation. (as per my signature)

    People spend so much time wondering why god allows this, if we stopped thinking of why god allows it and start thinking of why people do it, then maybe we can make more progress changing it.

     Smiley

    And of course there's the additional point that as long as people believe god allows it for a higher purpose they have no reason to want to change things. The whole idea is pernicious.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #12 - November 27, 2008, 06:34 PM
    Quote from: Nour on November 27, 2008, 03:25 PM
    Perhaps abused children are the reincarnated souls of past evildoers such as Jeffrey Dahmer and the Yorkshire Ripper come back as babies in abusive homes in order to play out their karmic debt to the world.

    Since it appears that you were not joking I have to say that it sounds somewhat vindictive and thoroughly distasteful. What you are effectively saying is that everyone who gets abused deserves it. If that is the case why bother having a criminal justice system?

    Seriously, have you thought this through at all? Am I to take it that if you get mugged and raped or murdered you would be fine with it because on some level you must have deserved it?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #13 - November 27, 2008, 06:46 PM
    Quote from: Nour on November 27, 2008, 03:25 PM
    Perhaps abused children are the reincarnated souls of past evildoers such as Jeffrey Dahmer and the Yorkshire Ripper come back as babies in abusive homes in order to play out their karmic debt to the world.


    I am a Tottenham Hotspur fan and Glen Hoddle - former player & manager - was someone I respected, until...

    Until he said that disabled people were that way because they were bad in a former life.

    He lost my respect.



  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #14 - November 27, 2008, 06:48 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on November 27, 2008, 02:37 PM
    People spend so much time wondering why god allows this, if we stopped thinking of why god allows it and start thinking of why people do it, then maybe we can make more progress changing it.


    I have to agree with you, Berbs.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #15 - November 27, 2008, 06:52 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on November 27, 2008, 02:37 PM
    That's why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation. (as per my signature)

    People spend so much time wondering why god allows this, if we stopped thinking of why god allows it and start thinking of why people do it, then maybe we can make more progress changing it.

     Smiley


    brutally , realistically and brilliantly to the point Berbs.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #16 - November 27, 2008, 06:55 PM
    Rip it for your sig. grin12
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #17 - November 27, 2008, 06:59 PM
    Quote from: Nour on November 27, 2008, 03:58 PM
    Well, to you your belief, and to me, mine.

    So be it.

    But why would you prefer to believe anything so sick in the first place , Nour?
    We don't need an excuse for anyone's existence. They are what they are with no reference in the khamic sense.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #18 - November 27, 2008, 07:10 PM
    While the brutal deaths of little babies and children is horrible and hard to comprehend, I think God has to stand trial for greater cruelties on this planet. Like child prostitution, for example. Can somebody who sincerely believes in a merciful God, who intelligently designed us, explain why this evil exists? God in his infinite wisdom and compassion was NOT able to design a human's brain in a way that it would be impossible for a person to feel attracted to little children, let alone force them into prostitution?!? Don't think about it too much, you might loose your precious faith.

    As far as I am concerned, there is NO fucking God, not a merciful, not a compassionate, not a benevolent, not a symphatetic, not a loving God, and certainly not a God who "is so awesom, I want to submit my whole fucking, worthless live to Him in worship."

    Maybe you think "Every time a child is abused, God cries." I think every time a child is abused, God rotates in his grave, though he never existed in the first place anyway.
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
    Wikis: en – de – fr – ar – tr
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    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #19 - November 27, 2008, 07:52 PM
    Looking at the various religious explanations for such cases really makes you realise that the world is better explained without a god.

    If a god does exist and he is supposed to be loving, kind and omnipotent then there's no reason for such suffering unless he's wicked, or don't care.

    The other concept, karma, is interesting but as stated can make people ambivalent to others' suffering.

    This is the major reason I concluded there could not be a god.

    If there was a god though, I'd rather think karma is a better explanation. What goes around comes around. As you sow so shall you reap. You pay in direct proportion to the suffering you created, rather than eternal damnation for a single transgression.

    It may sound cold, but from discussions with those in the know, belief does not mean you ignore the plight of others as their suffering being their just dues, but by assisting and showing concern relieving their bad karma will gain you good karma.

    Of course there's claims of people remembering past lives or having hypnotic regressions to past lives but how scientific they are, I do not know.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #20 - November 27, 2008, 08:16 PM
    What do you mean by 'those in the know'?
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #21 - November 27, 2008, 08:22 PM
    Quote from: sojournerlumus on November 27, 2008, 08:16 PM
    What do you mean by 'those in the know'?


    On another discussion board a couple years ago I had some some debates with a Hindu guy. So I got some insights about reincarnation
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #22 - November 27, 2008, 08:34 PM
    And why would you want to believe in something like Karma and reincarnation?
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #23 - November 27, 2008, 09:06 PM
    Quote from: sojournerlumus on November 27, 2008, 08:34 PM
    And why would you want to believe in something like Karma and reincarnation?


    No, I didn't say I believed in it. I said these ideologies are what drove to to not beleiving in god.

    However thinking about the options, if there was a god and I had the option of either going to hell for all eternity being barbecued for not kissing up to his behind or coming back and trying again paying for the bad things i did bofore, I know which I'd choose, the latter.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #24 - November 27, 2008, 10:58 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus
    Since it appears that you were not joking I have to say that it sounds somewhat vindictive and thoroughly distasteful. What you are effectively saying is that everyone who gets abused deserves it. If that is the case why bother having a criminal justice system?


    No, I did not mean to imply that anyone who is abused deserves it.  I believe that spiritually, we must face situations of hardship and trauma in order for our souls to grow and evolve.  This doesn't mean that we should not feel sympathy for victims such as Baby P but then again, perhaps death was a mercy for him because had he survived he would probably only have faced a life of more neglect and abuse.

    Quote
    Seriously, have you thought this through at all? Am I to take it that if you get mugged and raped or murdered you would be fine with it because on some level you must have deserved it?

    Definitely not!  I think as people we must experience the whole range of situations and emotions imaginable in order to progress, it may take several lifetimes perhaps. 

    Anyway, I'm really tired and need to go to bed.  I'll explain more tomorrow.
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #25 - November 28, 2008, 09:35 AM
    I think Nour is not saying that:
    - Ppl should not have compassion for those who are suffering.
    - Ppl should not do any thing to prevent / improve the situation.
    - Ppl should think abused ppl deserved it.
    - Ppl should make abused guilty that abused person was a bad one.

    She thinks each and every one of us has some Karma and we all will go through certain traumas and shock in order to grow and evolve. Some will have more obvious and some will have traumas not so obvious. That does not make us better than baby P or a disabled person.  If we were better or more evloved, we would not have born. And after going through various hardships in various phases one day everyone will reach some final destination.

    Not that, I believe in that. Just that I kind of understand her.
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #26 - November 28, 2008, 09:49 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on November 27, 2008, 02:37 PM
    That's why the world makes more sense if you take god out of the equation. (as per my signature)

    People spend so much time wondering why god allows this, if we stopped thinking of why god allows it and start thinking of why people do it, then maybe we can make more progress changing it.

     Smiley


    It really doesn't.  If there is no God, there is nothing to change and no direction to change it in.  No God implies apathy and hopelessness.  Fortunately, many atheists are too irrational to actually live that way...
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #27 - November 28, 2008, 10:46 AM
    Quote from: learn2bcalm on November 28, 2008, 09:35 AM
    I think Nour is not saying that:
    - Ppl should not have compassion for those who are suffering.
    - Ppl should not do any thing to prevent / improve the situation.
    - Ppl should think abused ppl deserved it.
    - Ppl should make abused guilty that abused person was a bad one.

    She thinks each and every one of us has some Karma and we all will go through certain traumas and shock in order to grow and evolve. Some will have more obvious and some will have traumas not so obvious. That does not make us better than baby P or a disabled person.  If we were better or more evloved, we would not have born. And after going through various hardships in various phases one day everyone will reach some final destination.

    Not that, I believe in that. Just that I kind of understand her.


    Wow!  You hit the nail on the head there learn2bcalm.  That was exactly what I was trying to say yesterday, just that my brain was addled with work (and other substances) and I was too tired to organise my thoughts very well.  That was what I was trying to get across to you all in my OP.
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #28 - November 28, 2008, 11:22 AM
    Quote from: sparky on November 28, 2008, 09:49 AM
    If there is no God, there is nothing to change and no direction to change it in. 


    On the contrary. The laws of nature allow for change from the big bang to where we are today. From primitive man, archaic laws to scientific discoveries we live in a world of continual change.

    With god you are indoctrinated to believe in answers that you are not allowed to question. You are blinded by God's divine plan which he has concocted since time immemorial which if he has already planned, you have no control over. So in that since with God there is no change. Life is in god's hands not ours.

    Quote
    No God implies apathy and hopelessness.  Fortunately, many atheists are too irrational to actually live that way...


    No god implies man goes out and find the answers to the universe. Question our existence and develop laws for the good of humanity.

    God implies stagnation in 1st or 6th century desert doctrines that are not allowed to change because god says so. Ideologies that are tribal centric and barbaric.

    Advancements both humane and technological over the past 300 years has mainly come about because of man's freedom from the shackles of religion. Religions that subdued the spirit of human knowledge and growth with the use of killings and torture.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Why babies are abused and killed and God doesn't intervene?
     Reply #29 - November 28, 2008, 11:44 AM
    Very well put a.ghazali!

    Sparky,
    How on earth can you come up with statements like "if there is no god, there is nothing to change and no direction to change it in"?  What possible evidence do you have to substantiate such a comment?

    From what I can see of all the religions they are positively against change.
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