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 Topic: Betrayal of Muslim reformers

 (Read 7472 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     OP - November 23, 2008, 11:19 AM

    Some Sunday morning reading which should really be Monday morning reading.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5213325.ece
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #1 - November 23, 2008, 11:26 AM
    That article should be on the front page, but I bet it was hidden somewhere in the middle of the paper.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #2 - November 23, 2008, 02:35 PM
    I used to think of the Dutch as the cutting edge of steadfast, liberal, human rights thinking. Lately they've excelled at being a bunch of cringing surrender monkeys.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #3 - November 23, 2008, 02:53 PM
    The rest of Europe doesn't seem any better according to that article.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #4 - November 23, 2008, 03:12 PM
    Quote from: speaklow on November 23, 2008, 11:19 AM

    Some Sunday morning reading which should really be Monday morning reading.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5213325.ece


    Excellent article!
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #5 - November 23, 2008, 06:45 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on November 23, 2008, 02:53 PM
    The rest of Europe doesn't seem any better according to that article.

    That's why this forum is so important.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #6 - November 23, 2008, 07:15 PM
    Quote from: sojournerlumus on November 23, 2008, 06:45 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on November 23, 2008, 02:53 PM
    The rest of Europe doesn't seem any better according to that article.

    That's why this forum is so important.


    Too true.
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #7 - November 23, 2008, 07:25 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 23, 2008, 03:12 PM
    Quote from: speaklow on November 23, 2008, 11:19 AM

    Some Sunday morning reading which should really be Monday morning reading.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5213325.ece


    Excellent article!


    I agree Hass, great article but how does everybody feel about Douglas Murray?

    I always think he speaks a lot of sense but he refers to himself as a neocon and cites Muslim demographics as a problem.

    I'm not sure how I feel about that, he always sounds very reasonable and I give him credit for identifying as a neocon in Britain with this political climate, that takes big balls! but isn't the demographics argument supposed to be the hall mark of the bigot.

    I think arguing about the dangers of demographics is potentially dangerous and feeds the racist bigots but I get the feeling he is not a racist bigot himself. He is just extremely worried that in the future a large Muslim minority will have enough political clout to impose Muslim taboos on wider society and reign in our hard won rights.

    What do you think?
     parrot
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #8 - November 23, 2008, 07:36 PM
    Quote from: brucepig on November 23, 2008, 07:25 PM
    I think arguing about the dangers of demographics is potentially dangerous and feeds the racist bigots but I get the feeling he is not a racist bigot himself. He is just extremely worried that in the future a large Muslim minority will have enough political clout to impose Muslim taboos on wider society and reign in our hard won rights.

    What do you think?
     parrot

    I think it's a valid concern to a point, in that any group that has enough clout can cause problems, but from what I understand the demographics actually aren't as bad as some people try to make out. In any case it's not a concern specifically about Muslims per se but about restrictions on basic human rights like freedom of speech and freedom to choose your religious beliefs (or lack of them). That is always a worry in any society. You know the old saying: the price of liberty is eternal vigilance. If you want cliche overload I could also add the other one about "those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it".

    If Muslims really were staging a demographic takeover of western democracies (which is doubtful) and if the majority of Muslims were hardline Salafis (which they aint) then it'd be much more worrying. That said, I can see why he would feel very uneasy because let's face it, the "moderates" are usually too damned moderate to speak up.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #9 - November 23, 2008, 07:43 PM
    Good article.  Thanks for sharing it with us.

    I agree, our governments need to stand up to this intimidation by the radicals elements.  I fear most for the poor Muslimahs who still suffer at their hands because Western governments have so far failed to help them by playing the pc game.
    .....Sigh.....  wacko
    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #10 - November 23, 2008, 07:44 PM
    Quote
    I'm not sure how I feel about that, he always sounds very reasonable and I give him credit for identifying as a neocon in Britain with this political climate, that takes big balls! but isn't the demographics argument supposed to be the hall mark of the bigot.


    I don't know about a bigot, but it is the hallmark of someone who has swallowed a whopper of a lie based on dodgy maths.  The birth rate of immigrant groups in Britain, including immigrants who are muslim, converges with the general birth rate within  two or three generations.  For those who think the scaremongering based on projections from current figures holds some truth, I would remind you that if the same methodology had been applied to Canadian immigration and birth rates around the turn of the 20th century, it would have predicted that Canada would now be majority Chinese.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #11 - November 23, 2008, 07:46 PM
    Quote from: brucepig on November 23, 2008, 07:25 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 23, 2008, 03:12 PM
    Quote from: speaklow on November 23, 2008, 11:19 AM

    Some Sunday morning reading which should really be Monday morning reading.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5213325.ece


    Excellent article!


    I agree Hass, great article but how does everybody feel about Douglas Murray?

    I always think he speaks a lot of sense but he refers to himself as a neocon and cites Muslim demographics as a problem.

    I'm not sure how I feel about that, he always sounds very reasonable and I give him credit for identifying as a neocon in Britain with this political climate, that takes big balls! but isn't the demographics argument supposed to be the hall mark of the bigot.

    I think arguing about the dangers of demographics is potentially dangerous and feeds the racist bigots but I get the feeling he is not a racist bigot himself. He is just extremely worried that in the future a large Muslim minority will have enough political clout to impose Muslim taboos on wider society and reign in our hard won rights.

    What do you think?
     parrot


    I didn't know that Bruce and that is very worrying.

    Anyone who thinks "Muslim demographics is a problem" is only one step away from the most ignorant racist who does not differentiate between ordinary Muslims and extremists and wants all Muslims deported "Back to their country".

    I certainly do not want to be associated with such a person in any way.
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #12 - November 23, 2008, 07:50 PM
    I think it is a little more complex than that in some cases, Hass. What some people are concerned about is not Muslim demographics for the sake of Muslim demographics but what the political power of a group can achieve. Given the current situation in which it seems that the fundy wankers have the biggest voices in Islam and the "silent majority" seem to go along with it all whatever their private thoughts on the matter then anyone who has a poor grasp of population trends is going to worry even if they are not a racist as such.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #13 - November 23, 2008, 08:10 PM
    I think he understands that not all Muslims are hardline Salafis.

    He runs 'The Centre For Social Cohesion' which promotes secular and moderate Muslim voices. He hosted the debate between Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Ed Hussain.

    I think he realises just how marginalised the secular and moderate voices are and fears if a Muslim voting block is large enough the Muslim Brotherhood, Jaamat, Hizb will eclipse the moderate voices and impose their view as the only Islamic view forcing people to choose secular policies or Islamic ones.

    Them or us, Muslim or apostate. Part of the Ummah or traitor to your people and your god etc

    Even though the majority of Muslims are moderate it seems to me that when the blowhards apply enough pressure by saying that it's un Islamic to oppose them the fear of being ostracised, attacked or declared apostate is enough to make the moderates shut up and tow the line.

    It's a catch22.

    I have read the Koran and I think the Wahabis and hardline Shias have a very plausible interpretation of the Koran. It's left to the moderates to square the circle.

    I think the reason why moderates are not speaking up is not because they quietly support the jihadis but because to challenge the nutters is to openly challenge a literalistic reading of the Koran.

    In other words they will ultimately be challenging the Koran itself and not only does this shake their own faith it can lead to the ultimate of penalties of being branded an apostate.

    Best to keep your head down cool2
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #14 - November 23, 2008, 08:12 PM
    ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ What he said. All of it. Afro
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #15 - November 23, 2008, 08:16 PM
    Quote
    Anyone who thinks "Muslim demographics is a problem" is only one step away from the most ignorant racist who does not differentiate between ordinary Muslims and extremists and wants all Muslims deported "Back to their country".


    I have to confess, Hassan, that I believed the demographic argument for an embarrassingly long time.  And yet, I was never, ever one step away from  thinking that any muslims at all should be deported.  The suggestion has always made me angry, even before I realised that demographics weren't a problem.

    Some surprisingly sensible people fall for that demographic thing because its so easy to overlook that very important,  but seemingly insignificant little phrase - "if current trends continue".  They never do continue, of course,  but most people don't notice that until they look at the same methodology applied to a situation where its already been demonstrated to be untrue.

    The demographic argument is like a clever conjuring trick.  Like most clever tricks it can bamboozle many otherwise sensible people, I wouldn't write somebody off as a bigot for being tricked.  I wouldn't excuse anybody's bigotry on the grounds that they were tricked by it, either.

    After all, I was fooled into believing it, I still never became a racist, nor failed to differentiate between ordinary muslims and extremists, nor failed to be disgusted by calls for mass deportations.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #16 - November 23, 2008, 08:21 PM
    Quote from: brucepig on November 23, 2008, 08:10 PM

    I think the reason why moderates are not speaking up is not because they quietly support the jihadis but because to challenge the nutters is to openly challenge a literalistic reading of the Koran.

    In other words they will ultimately be challenging the Koran itself and not only does this shake their own faith it can lead to the ultimate of penalties of being branded an apostate.

    Best to keep your head down cool2


    That is spot on.

    But more and more moderates are speaking up these days. There were none in the 80s when I first started looking for Sheikhs and Imams to support a more liberal approach.

    Maybe the growing tide of criticism of Islam is provoking the silent majority into not being so silent.
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #17 - November 23, 2008, 08:23 PM
    And that is what leads some people who don't know any better to view Muslims as is they were the Borg. They appear  monolithic to anyone outside the Muslim community.

    ETA: Hey, you snuck some extra stuff in. Grin  I was replying to your "spot on" comment.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #18 - November 23, 2008, 08:25 PM
    Comments by Oz and in particular Cheetah are well taken - thanks.
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #19 - November 23, 2008, 08:26 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 23, 2008, 08:23 PM
    ETA: Hey, you snuck some extra stuff in. Grin  I was replying to your "spot on" comment.


    lol sorry - I do that a lot - I think of something else I want to add only AFTER I hit the "Post" button  grin12
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #20 - November 23, 2008, 08:33 PM
    Don't we all?  Cheesy  I often think of things halfway though a sentence (which is why I keep adding things in brackets).  Wink
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #21 - November 23, 2008, 08:39 PM
    Hass am I right in saying that the way that the Muslim community values honour is the reason why it seems that the Muslim community is monolithic. What I mean is there must be major doctrinal disputes going on privately within the Muslim community but they don't openly debate reform because that would show disunity, like doing your dirty washing in public, basically dishonoring Islam.

    So it goes on in private but outwardly there is a show of unity. Am I right about that?

    If so it reminds me of my new home. In Asia they have the concept of 'face'. I spose it is the same as honour. They avoid disputes at all costs because it is a loss of face if you get angry and losing face is the ultimate shame. So they brush stuff under the carpet and smile a lot.  dance

     parrot
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #22 - November 23, 2008, 08:41 PM
    I just ramble on and on then I know I've said everything I wanted to say  dance
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #23 - November 23, 2008, 08:48 PM
    Quote from: brucepig on November 23, 2008, 08:39 PM
    Hass am I right in saying that the way that the Muslim community values honour is the reason why it seems that the Muslim community is monolithic. What I mean is there must be major doctrinal disputes going on privately within the Muslim community but they don't openly debate reform because that would show disunity, like doing your dirty washing in public, basically dishonoring Islam.

    So it goes on in private but outwardly there is a show of unity. Am I right about that?

    If so it reminds me of my new home. In Asia they have the concept of 'face'. I spose it is the same as honour. They avoid disputes at all costs because it is a loss of face if you get angry and losing face is the ultimate shame. So they brush stuff under the carpet and smile a lot.  dance

     parrot


    That's true, Bruce  (though it is changing more these days) it was something I personally came across a great deal when I did start speaking out - and I was told in exactly those words ("No need to air our dirty laundry in public - this is something to be discussed amongst Muslims, not with non-Musliums" etc..).

    I remember listening to the Khutbas of Sheikh Faisal in Willesden Library Centre and I was so angry I wanted to report what he was saying to the authorities (Police or at least Brent Council). But the sense that I would be a traitor of somesort stopped me.

    (In fact I did eventually report him to both the Police and local council and both did NOTHING - he was eventually arrested a year later only after a search of a terrorist suspect found Sheikh Faisals tapes on him - Faisal was imprisoned - but is out now preaching as before - but abroad now.)
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #24 - November 23, 2008, 09:08 PM
    Quick request to Hassan and Os.

    As this is the first forum I've ever posted on I'm still unfamiliar with some of the acronyms that posters use, eg ETA etc.

    Request for the IT wizard Os. - Could you put some sort of drop down menu populated with acronyms and their meanings.

    Request for Hassan. - If it's not too much trouble would you mind putting an English translation in brackets of some of the Arabic/Islamic words you use or create a page similar to the acronym request I made. For example you just used the word Khubtka which I'm guessing is some sort of speech/presentation/seminar.

    PS As I mentioned above this is the first forum I've posted on so I didn't realise that forum etiquette meant introducing yourself and creating a bio.

    Apologies.
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #25 - November 23, 2008, 09:14 PM
    Quote from: speaklow on November 23, 2008, 09:08 PM
    Quick request to Hassan and Os.

    As this is the first forum I've ever posted on I'm still unfamiliar with some of the acronyms that posters use, eg ETA etc.

    Request for the IT wizard Os. - Could you put some sort of drop down menu populated with acronyms and their meanings.

    Request for Hassan. - If it's not too much trouble would you mind putting an English translation in brackets of some of the Arabic/Islamic words you use or create a page similar to the acronym request I made. For example you just used the word Khubtka which I'm guessing is some sort of speech/presentation/seminar.

    PS As I mentioned above this is the first forum I've posted on so I didn't realise that forum etiquette meant introducing yourself and creating a bio.

    Apologies.


    Sorry - many words like this have become so much a part of regular British Muslim-speak I forget some do not understand them.

    Khutba means the sermon given in a mosque.
  • Re: Betrayal of Muslim reformers
     Reply #26 - November 23, 2008, 09:23 PM
    Quote from: speaklow on November 23, 2008, 09:08 PM
    Quick request to Hassan and Os.

    As this is the first forum I've ever posted on I'm still unfamiliar with some of the acronyms that posters use, eg ETA etc.

    Request for the IT wizard Os. - Could you put some sort of drop down menu populated with acronyms and their meanings.

    Request for Hassan. - If it's not too much trouble would you mind putting an English translation in brackets of some of the Arabic/Islamic words you use or create a page similar to the acronym request I made. For example you just used the word Khubtka which I'm guessing is some sort of speech/presentation/seminar.

    PS As I mentioned above this is the first forum I've posted on so I didn't realise that forum etiquette meant introducing yourself and creating a bio.

    Apologies.


    You don't have to do a full bio or anything but a short Intro is fairly normal. Not obligatory though.

    If you want a list of common acronyms just Google for it. I'm not coding in a whole new drop menu for them but I'll put up a link in the FAQ at some point. We can do an article that sorts out most of them. Ditto for some common Arabic terms. Wink
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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