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Theme Changer

 Topic: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!

 (Read 10830 times)
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  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #30 - November 24, 2008, 10:57 AM

    One old classical claim to prove that is:

    "development of the embryo;"

    so they claim that Quran perfectly demonstrates that and this never contradicts what science shows and proves..! and thus Quran has to be from God ...etc.


    Anyone with the required background to debunk or prove that?? (with sources)

    I don't know if this has been mentioned already but as far as I'm aware this was already known by the Greeks who discovered it centuries before so it's not really a miracle that it is in the Quran considering the Arabs had a lot of influence for the Greeks.
  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #31 - November 24, 2008, 11:44 AM

    I don't know if this has been mentioned already but as far as I'm aware this was already known by the Greeks who discovered it centuries before so it's not really a miracle that it is in the Quran considering the Arabs had a lot of influence for the Greeks.


    Just joined though I've been browsing the site for a few weeks now.

    I have written a book (yet to be published) unveiling the Qur'an and othe Islamic scriptures and have dealt in some detail with the embryo and egg shaped earth subjects.

    So to clarify on some of the points made on the forum, here is excerpts based on my research:

    Embryology:

    Quote
    Starting with an analysis of Muhammad's account of embryology, we can easily determine its scientific inaccuracy in addition to its obvious plagiarisation from earlier works by Greek philosophers and scientists such as Galen, Hippocrates and Aristotle or Indian theses on the subject by Charaka and Susruta.

    To start with 'nutfah' (semen) as mentioned in verse 86:6 says that the fluid issues from between the loins and ribs, not, as we know today, from the testicles. This reflects the mistaken view of Hippocrates still prevalent at the time of Muhammad.

    Sura 23:12-14 says God created man from 'wet earth, then placed him as (a drop of) sperm (nutfah) in a safe lodging; then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood (alaqa); then out of that clot We made a (foetus) lump (mudghah), then We made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then We developed out of it another creature.'

    Nowhere in this description is the female egg mentioned. It says the sperm is made into a blood clot, then into a lump; not very scientific. Out of the lump bones are formed and then on the bones flesh is placed. In reality the flesh and muscles form prior to the bones. Muhammad?s conception of embryology is so sadly out of synch with reality that the attempts by Muslims to claim otherwise are rather farcical.

    This account directly follows the four stages described by the Greek physician Galen, writing around 150 CE. It should also be noted that one of Muhammad's companions, Harith ben Kalada, studied at the school of Jandi-Shapur in Persia and would have been well acquainted with the teachings of Aristotle, Hippocrates, and Galen.

    But how is man created? In the Qur'an there are many contradictory accounts. For example sometimes it tells us that we are created from earth (11:61), sometimes from dry clay (15:26,28,33, 17:61, 32:7), sometimes from nothing (19:67), sometimes not from nothing (52:35), sometimes from wet earth (23:12), or from mire (38:71), sometimes from water (25:54, 21:30, 24:45), sometimes from dust (3:59, 30:20, 35:11) or even sometimes from the dead (30:19, 39:6). They cannot all be true and is evidence that Muhammad was making things up as he went along. The beauty of such multifaceted philosophy is, no matter what scientists discover Muslims will have a verse to refer to, which might verify the miraculous science of the Qur'an.

    Sahih Bukhari 54:430 has Muhammad saying, 'A human being is put together in the womb of the mother in forty days, and then he becomes a clot of thick blood for a similar period, and then a piece of flesh for a similar period.' That is a total of 120 days before becoming a foetus twice as long as we now know it to be.
    In Sahih Muslim 33:6395 Muhammad says, 'The semen stays in the womb for forty nights, then the angel, gives it a shape and decides whether he would be male or female. Then the angel says: Would his limbs be full or imperfect' And then the Lord makes them full and perfect. Then he says: My Lord, what about his livelihood, and his death and what about his disposition' And then the Lord decides about his misfortune and fortune.'

    So according to Muhammad, an angel comes down forty days after the semen enters the womb and decides on the gender of the child and whether it should be deformed in anyway and Allah will decide on the future fortunes of the child. There is no science in any of this and is clearly based on seventh century myths and superstitions.


    So as this will not be too lengthy I will post the flat earth analysis separarely.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #32 - November 24, 2008, 11:57 AM

    With respect to the flat/egg shaped earth controversy here is the extract:

    Quote
    There was a time when Muslims clerics would establish fatwas against those claiming the earth to be spherical. Although the Qur'an describes a flat earth we find Muslims today adamant that the Qur'an portrays a round earth. However no verse exclaiming this planet is round can be found in the Qur'an. Instead today we have apologists changing the words of the Qur'an to conform to modern science. We are now informed that the Qur'an says the earth is egg shaped in verse 79:30 He made the earth egg-shaped. Firstly the earth is not egg-shaped and secondly the Arabic word dahaha used here, means spread out or extended. It does not mean egg. The Arabic word for egg is al baiza.

    That is why when we look at the three traditionally accepted authorised English translations of the Qur?an, this verse (Q79:30), is rendered without any eggs included:
    -   And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (YUSUF ALI)
    -   And after that He spread the earth (PICKTHAL)
    -   And the earth, He expanded it after that (SHAKIR)

    To now suddenly change the entire meaning to suit emerging knowledge is deceit to the highest degree.

    The evidence for the flat nature of the earth can be easily obtained from other Qur'anic verses:
    15:19 And the earth We have spread out like a carpet; set thereon Mountains firm and immovable;
    20:53 Who hath appointed the earth as a bed and hath threaded roads for you therein
    50:7 And the earth have We spread out

    These and similar other verses, speaking of an earth like a carpet or bed that is a wide expanse, spread out and immovable, do not describe the planet as we have come to know it, but as a flat stationary surface. Which carpet spread out attains the shape of a sphere? Which bed can be considered to be spherical? No Muslim ever conceptualised the notion of a spherical earth until recent times. Why? Because the Qur'an says nothing of the sort.

    The following verses depict a flat geocentric earth with the sun moving over it, 18:86 Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People. And, 18:90 Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun

    Here Muhammad describes a travelling servant of Allah who traversed from one end of the earth to the other. Seeing on one end where the sun rests in the evening and on the other where it rises. Apparently the people there must be close to the sun therefore Muhammad says they have no protection from the heat. Only on a flat earth would such a scenario be possible; people who are close to the place where the sun rises and sets. On a spherical earth, orbiting the sun, there would be no need for places of setting or rising, there would be no people closer to where it sets or rises and no matter how far and wide you travelled you would not come to such places where setting and rising is observed any differently.

    A verse used earlier in disproving the big bang theory is also applicable to the flat earth understanding provided by the Qur'an:
    13:2 Allah raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He is firmly established on the throne

    Traditionally the heavens were the abode of God, his prophets and the resting place of believers after judgement day. Heaven was always considered to be above; in other words over the earth. Here Muhammad confirms his belief that heaven is raised above the earth on pillars invisible to the human eye. If this is the case, the people of the southern hemisphere would not see the heavens when they look up, for it would be above the North Pole supported on pillars. For all living things to see the heavenly bodies the earth would have to be flat.


    Many other scientific claims made by Muslims regarding the Qur'an are also easily refuted and if anyone is interested in other excerpts from the book let me know.

    The work does not only deal with science but all aspects of Islam such as Jihad, Women in Islam, Sharia Law, the supposedly Tolerant verses, Dhimmis, Contradictions, Nonsensical stuff, Slavery, etc.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #33 - November 24, 2008, 12:43 PM

    I edited the blue text out of your post and placed it in quote brackets.  Unfortunately many clours clash with our diferent skins, so it's best to stick to plain text.  Afro

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #34 - November 24, 2008, 12:52 PM

    I edited the blue text out of your post and placed it in quote brackets.  Unfortunately many clours clash with our diferent skins, so it's best to stick to plain text.  Afro


    Thank you, no probs. There was also a similar post but on Embryology at the bottom of the previous page. I have updated that one now as you recommended.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #35 - November 24, 2008, 01:24 PM

    Well brucepig, here I was, going to type out and cut and paste all this info. And you find videos.

    My fingers thank you.   Afro







    Glad I was of some assistance old bean  Afro
  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #36 - November 24, 2008, 02:07 PM

    Well brucepig, here I was, going to type out and cut and paste all this info. And you find videos.

    My fingers thank you.   Afro







    Glad I was of some assistance old bean  Afro



    I never even thought to check for videos. Either I am getting old, or becoming an unconscious luddite.   grin12

    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I remain.
  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #37 - November 24, 2008, 03:26 PM

    Quote from: Cheetah
    We are talking about the contents of the Qur'an.  As far as I know, the Qur'an says the earth is egg shaped.

    Actually that is the claim some modern Muslims apologists make; the Qur'an doesn't talk about 'egg shaped' it describes the earth stretched out (like a carpet) and pegged down by mountains ('lest it should shake with you'). The author of the Quran writes from a decidedly human, geocentric point of view: the earth is flat and the sun and moon travel around it.

    Everytime "science" (which is falsely called so), "discovers" something new, evolutionists have to go back and change some parts of one of their theories. Amazingly enough, no scientific discovery has ever caused Biblical creationists to have to change their stand.
  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #38 - November 24, 2008, 03:36 PM

    a.ghazali, I'd take an interest in reading your book when you publish it! Great analysis. This hadith you mentioned intrigued me:

    "In Sahih Muslim 33:6395 Muhammad says, 'The semen stays in the womb for forty nights, then the angel, gives it a shape and decides whether he would be male or female."

    Interesting because in Sahih Bukhari Muhammad claims the sex is determined by which one of the partners orgasms first (man = male, woman = female)!

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #39 - November 24, 2008, 04:42 PM

    a.ghazali, I'd take an interest in reading your book when you publish it! Great analysis. This hadith you mentioned intrigued me:

    "In Sahih Muslim 33:6395 Muhammad says, 'The semen stays in the womb for forty nights, then the angel, gives it a shape and decides whether he would be male or female."

    Interesting because in Sahih Bukhari Muhammad claims the sex is determined by which one of the partners orgasms first (man = male, woman = female)!


    Well, let me do the 'splaining: of course the angels decide the gender based on which of the partners came first; those naughty, naughty angels like watching porn, who knew? Since these are ahadith most Muslims are gonna ignore the contradiction, but if it had been the Qur'an I'm sure you would have heard apologetics similar to what I wrote.

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
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    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #40 - November 24, 2008, 06:09 PM

    a.ghazali, I'd take an interest in reading your book when you publish it! Great analysis. This hadith you mentioned intrigued me:

    "In Sahih Muslim 33:6395 Muhammad says, 'The semen stays in the womb for forty nights, then the angel, gives it a shape and decides whether he would be male or female."

    Interesting because in Sahih Bukhari Muhammad claims the sex is determined by which one of the partners orgasms first (man = male, woman = female)!


    Do you know where to find that in the hadith Pazuzu?
  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #41 - November 24, 2008, 07:17 PM

    a.ghazali, I'd take an interest in reading your book when you publish it! Great analysis. This hadith you mentioned intrigued me:
    Interesting because in Sahih Bukhari Muhammad claims the sex is determined by which one of the partners orgasms first (man = male, woman = female)!


    Paz, I'm not sure if you might be referring to the questions asked by Rabbi Al-Husayn of Muhammad when the latter arrived in Yathrib (later Medina). Al Husayn asked Muhammad 3 questions to determine if Muhammad truly was the prophet of god.

    One of the questions was 'What makes a baby look like its father or mother'

    To this Muhammad replied If a man's discharge preceded that of the woman then the child resembles the father, and vice versa.

    So that hadith is related to resemblance as opposed to actual gender.

    Out of insterest the other questions asked to determine his prophethood were:

    - What is the first meal of the people in paradise?
    - What is the sign of the last hour?

    The answers provided by Muhammad are:

    - Lobe of the fish liver
    - A fire that will collect the people from the east to the west

    These answers convinced Al-Husayn that Muhammad was in fact a prophet of God. He was later called Abdullah bin Salam.

    Aziz, This story is taken from SB 55:546.




    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #42 - November 24, 2008, 07:42 PM

    Out of insterest the other questions asked to determine his prophethood were:

    - What is the first meal of the people in paradise?
    - What is the sign of the last hour?

    The answers provided by Muhammad are:

    - Lobe of the fish liver
    - A fire that will collect the people from the east to the west

    These answers convinced Al-Husayn that Muhammad was in fact a prophet of God. He was later called Abdullah bin Salam.

    Hmmm. Seems like the standards of proof are pretty low then. I should become a prophet myself.  grin12

    Nicely written analysis you've done there. Congratulations.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #43 - November 24, 2008, 08:49 PM

    What's funny is, if only a prophet would know, why does the Rabbi know? How did the Rabbi acquire this knowledge, that only a prophet would know? Does this knowledge give the Rabbi the potential of becoming a prophet? Did the Rabbi obtain this knowledge from a book, or oral tradition? How many other people know this? Could not Muhammad have been told about it, or read it? (yah, I know, you say he was illiterate)

    Just some thoughts.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #44 - November 24, 2008, 09:07 PM

    I wondered the same thing. And yes, a.ghazali, it turns out I did have that one in mind. I'd misinterpreted it. This equals d'oh!

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #45 - November 24, 2008, 09:09 PM


    - What is the first meal of the people in paradise?
    - What is the sign of the last hour?

    The answers provided by Muhammad are:

    - Lobe of the fish liver
    - A fire that will collect the people from the east to the west



    You struggle through life all pious and good, and upon arrival to paradise you're presented with a meal of.... 'lobe and fish liver'.    ... ugh.  What the heck is 'lobe' anyway.
  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #46 - November 24, 2008, 09:18 PM

    A globule of some sort? Like ear lobe?

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #47 - November 24, 2008, 09:47 PM

    What's funny is, if only a prophet would know, why does the Rabbi know? How did the Rabbi acquire this knowledge, that only a prophet would know? Does this knowledge give the Rabbi the potential of becoming a prophet? Did the Rabbi obtain this knowledge from a book, or oral tradition? How many other people know this? Could not Muhammad have been told about it, or read it? (yah, I know, you say he was illiterate)

    Just some thoughts.


    I don't think that the Rabbi knew the answers or that it was written anywhere. No one knew the answers to these questions. These questions according to the Rabbi could only be answered by a true prophet. He probably concocted the questions himself and told his flock that the one who could provide the answers was a prophet.

    He accepted the ridiculous answers either because he was gullible or its just that the story is fabricated to give Muhammad some sort of authentic support from a prominent Jew from Medina.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #48 - November 24, 2008, 10:42 PM

    What's funny is, if only a prophet would know, why does the Rabbi know? How did the Rabbi acquire this knowledge, that only a prophet would know? Does this knowledge give the Rabbi the potential of becoming a prophet? Did the Rabbi obtain this knowledge from a book, or oral tradition? How many other people know this? Could not Muhammad have been told about it, or read it? (yah, I know, you say he was illiterate)

    Just some thoughts.


    I don't think that the Rabbi knew the answers or that it was written anywhere. No one knew the answers to these questions. These questions according to the Rabbi could only be answered by a true prophet. He probably concocted the questions himself and told his flock that the one who could provide the answers was a prophet.

    He accepted the ridiculous answers either because he was gullible or its just that the story is fabricated to give Muhammad some sort of authentic support from a prominent Jew from Medina.



    Thanks a.ghazali for your interesting posts.

    I know every religion has its Harry Potteresque themes but sometimes Islam is so farcical its incredible how anybody falls for it.
  • Re: ?Quran is Wondrous..?!
     Reply #49 - November 29, 2008, 12:50 PM

    You guyz RoCk;

    a 'thank you' 4 everyone of you  grin12



    Information posted is invaluable.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
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