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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Do you think the religious books are fiction invented to control the masses?
  • Yes - 7 (25%)
  • No - 4 (14.3%)
  • Maybe - 4 (14.3%)
  • Without fucking doubt! - 13 (46.4%)
  • Total Voters: 28

 Topic: Fiction or Truth?

 (Read 10015 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Fiction or Truth?
     OP - November 18, 2008, 04:34 PM
    Anyone come across this guy and his book before? One of the Calpurnius Piso family was Julius Caesar's father in law I believe.

    "The New Testament, the Church, and Christianity, were all the creation of the Calpurnius Piso family, who were Roman aristocrats. The New Testament and all the characters in it - Jesus, all the Josephs, all the Marys, all the disciples, apostles, Paul, and John the Baptist - are all fictional."
    .
    Abelard Reuchlin
    from The True Authorship of the New Testament

    And here's a poll to go with it Afro
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #1 - November 18, 2008, 04:36 PM
    Interesting theory.  Never heard of him before though, have you a link to any info about it?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #2 - November 18, 2008, 04:43 PM
    I believe all the 'holy books' are 'fiction' in the sense that I believe they were man-made and had nothing to do with God (if he exists).

    I don't think there was a willful or malicious plan to create them - I reckon the people who came out with that stuff were mostly sincere and genuine.

    Did Jesus even exist?

    I suspect he did - but who knows?

  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #3 - November 18, 2008, 04:43 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on November 18, 2008, 04:36 PM
    Interesting theory.  Never heard of him before though, have you a link to any info about it?



    A friend mentioned him to me and I just googled the Calpurnius Piso name + christianity. Yeah, it is interesting. I believe the same family were credited for all of the Abrahamic faiths, but I could be wrong on that. They would've had to have bben very busy Smiley
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #4 - November 18, 2008, 04:44 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 18, 2008, 04:43 PM

    I don't think there was a willful or malicious plan to create them - I reckon the people who came out with that stuff were mostly sincere and genuine.




    But you have to admit, it was a great blueprint for control Afro
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #5 - November 18, 2008, 04:48 PM
    I think, God does not reveal any books in that way they are fictional. Sometimes they move around the people who actually existed. Sometimes they do give a philosophical insight.
    In above mentioned cases, those books do not have a bad selfish motive.

    However somebooks are written to control the masses,

    E.g. In case of Hinduism, I think whoever has written Upanishads, may have genuine interest in philosophy. Whoever has written Manusmriti definitely had mallicious intent of restricting freedom of women and low castes.

    In case of Islam, I think Uthman might have made some changes to Qur'an to suit his purpose.

    I would not comment about other religions as I don't know.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #6 - November 18, 2008, 04:49 PM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on November 18, 2008, 04:44 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 18, 2008, 04:43 PM

    I don't think there was a willful or malicious plan to create them - I reckon the people who came out with that stuff were mostly sincere and genuine.




    But you have to admit, it was a great blueprint for control Afro


    Indeed and rulers down the ages have always recognised this and have sought to sponsor and control whatever religious establishment was around them.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #7 - November 18, 2008, 04:51 PM
    “Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #8 - November 18, 2008, 04:53 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 18, 2008, 04:49 PM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on November 18, 2008, 04:44 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 18, 2008, 04:43 PM

    I don't think there was a willful or malicious plan to create them - I reckon the people who came out with that stuff were mostly sincere and genuine.




    But you have to admit, it was a great blueprint for control Afro


    Indeed and rulers down the ages have always recognised this and have sought to sponsor and control whatever religious establishment was around them.


    Let's just say these Roman 'entrepeneurs' did get the ball rolling, I guess they would've consiidered it a legacy to their future generations, but once you're dead, plans can go awry. But whatever, they would be astonished to find out how long the scam lasted Smiley Like I said, it's not the religion that's stupid, but the followers.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #9 - November 18, 2008, 04:57 PM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on November 18, 2008, 04:53 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 18, 2008, 04:49 PM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on November 18, 2008, 04:44 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 18, 2008, 04:43 PM

    I don't think there was a willful or malicious plan to create them - I reckon the people who came out with that stuff were mostly sincere and genuine.




    But you have to admit, it was a great blueprint for control Afro


    Indeed and rulers down the ages have always recognised this and have sought to sponsor and control whatever religious establishment was around them.


    Let's just say these Roman 'entrepeneurs' did get the ball rolling, I guess they would've consiidered it a legacy to their future generations, but once you're dead, plans can go awry. But whatever, they would be astonished to find out how long the scam lasted Smiley


    I would find the theory more believable if it was that they saw an annoying new religion starting amongst a ragga-muffin bunch of mis-fits and thought "Hey, maybe we could manipulate this to our own ends..."
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #10 - November 18, 2008, 05:03 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 18, 2008, 04:57 PM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on November 18, 2008, 04:53 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 18, 2008, 04:49 PM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on November 18, 2008, 04:44 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 18, 2008, 04:43 PM

    I don't think there was a willful or malicious plan to create them - I reckon the people who came out with that stuff were mostly sincere and genuine.




    But you have to admit, it was a great blueprint for control Afro


    Indeed and rulers down the ages have always recognised this and have sought to sponsor and control whatever religious establishment was around them.


    Let's just say these Roman 'entrepeneurs' did get the ball rolling, I guess they would've consiidered it a legacy to their future generations, but once you're dead, plans can go awry. But whatever, they would be astonished to find out how long the scam lasted Smiley


    I would find the theory more believable if it was that they saw an annoying new religion starting amongst a ragga-muffin bunch of mis-fits and thought "Hey, maybe we could manipulate this to our own ends..."


    Either way, it's bollocks and completely ridiculous that we should be discussing it in 2008 as an ongoing, rather obvious act of deception Cry
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #11 - November 18, 2008, 05:17 PM
    Of course. All religious myths are cracking good tales whether written sincerely, politically, cynically, or even  unintentionally. If I can get this link to work, I give you Joseph Campbell's fascinating take on this kind of thing.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #12 - November 18, 2008, 05:35 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 18, 2008, 04:43 PM
    I believe all the 'holy books' are 'fiction' in the sense that I believe they were man-made and had nothing to do with God (if he exists).

    I don't think there was a willful or malicious plan to create them - I reckon the people who came out with that stuff were mostly sincere and genuine.

    Did Jesus even exist?

    I suspect he did - but who knows?




    The people (ie the prophets) who came out with the stuff may have believed they were genuine, but none of the books compiled were actually compiled by them.

    They were compiled by the followers who were in control after the deaths of those said prophets.

    I believe that they were created to control the masses, because the people who put them together or oversaw their creation were convieniently strengthened in their positions as leader by the act.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #13 - November 18, 2008, 05:39 PM
    Don't forget to vote folks, this is a serious study  thnkyu
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #14 - November 18, 2008, 06:04 PM
    ***I don't think there was a willful or malicious plan to create them - I reckon the people who came out with that stuff were mostly sincere and genuine***

    The term 'pious fraud' has been used to excuse such fervent enthusiasm, Hassan. In my book, fraud is fraud whatever mitigating circumstance is offered in its defence. And there is no doubt that much of what has been handed down to us (by all scripture-based monotheisms) was written for nefarious reasons to manipulate the people and back up wobbly untruth.

    Whether Abraham, Christ or Mohamed existed or not (I seriously doubt it in the first two cases and hold out only a little more hope for the latter) has no bearing whatsoever, though, on whether a god does.

    Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #15 - November 18, 2008, 06:11 PM
    Quote from: neilmarr on November 18, 2008, 06:04 PM
    the term 'pious fraud' has been used to excuse such fervent enthusiasm, Hassan. In my book, fraud is fraud whatever mitigating circumstance is offered in its defence.


    Yeah, true.

    Let's hear from the two so far who have voted 'no'. Actually, there's no point in that. They are wise to stay out of it.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #16 - November 18, 2008, 07:10 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on November 18, 2008, 05:35 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 18, 2008, 04:43 PM
    I believe all the 'holy books' are 'fiction' in the sense that I believe they were man-made and had nothing to do with God (if he exists).

    I don't think there was a willful or malicious plan to create them - I reckon the people who came out with that stuff were mostly sincere and genuine.

    Did Jesus even exist?

    I suspect he did - but who knows?




    The people (ie the prophets) who came out with the stuff may have believed they were genuine, but none of the books compiled were actually compiled by them.

    They were compiled by the followers who were in control after the deaths of those said prophets.

    I believe that they were created to control the masses, because the people who put them together or oversaw their creation were convieniently strengthened in their positions as leader by the act.


    Yes, I have no doubt that many clergy and "Scholars" have made "adjustments" to suit their own ends.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #17 - November 18, 2008, 07:29 PM
    Quote from: neilmarr on November 18, 2008, 06:04 PM

    The term 'pious fraud' has been used to excuse such fervent enthusiasm, Hassan. In my book, fraud is fraud whatever mitigating circumstance is offered in its defence. And there is no doubt that much of what has been handed down to us (by all scripture-based monotheisms) was written for nefarious reasons to manipulate the people and back up wobbly untruth.



    Not sure about 'pious fraud' - I think they genuinely believed God was talking to them.

    From my reading of the pre-Islamic period (and I suspect Biblical times were similar), it was not uncommon for people to come out with ecstatic sayings, dirge type utterances, poetry, or rhyming prose they thought were divinely inspired.

    It seems to have been an environment where it was easier to accept that God was talking to you.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #18 - November 18, 2008, 07:36 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 18, 2008, 07:29 PM
    I think they genuinely believed God was talking to them.


    Yes, but they padded it out a bit too, incentives and all that - fraud is fraud even if you think you're doing it for the best, there is a victim.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #19 - November 18, 2008, 07:37 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 18, 2008, 07:29 PM
    Quote from: neilmarr on November 18, 2008, 06:04 PM

    The term 'pious fraud' has been used to excuse such fervent enthusiasm, Hassan. In my book, fraud is fraud whatever mitigating circumstance is offered in its defence. And there is no doubt that much of what has been handed down to us (by all scripture-based monotheisms) was written for nefarious reasons to manipulate the people and back up wobbly untruth.



    Not sure about 'pious fraud' - I think they genuinely believed God was talking to them.

    From my reading of the pre-Islamic period (and I suspect Biblical times were similar), it was not uncommon for people to come out with ecstatic sayings, dirge type utterances, poetry, or rhyming prose they thought were divinely inspired.

    It seems to have been an environment where it was easier to accept that God was talking to you.

    A bit like Tut then.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #20 - November 18, 2008, 08:14 PM
    ***Not sure about 'pious fraud' - I think they genuinely believed God was talking to them***


    So that makes them pious. Doesn't mean they're not fraudsters. Certainly in the New Testament canon and other early writings, though, Hussan, additions, deletions and adjustments are often blatantly calculated to justify Church dogma and underpin clerical authority rather than being the possible result of perceived divine inspiration by a befuddled but innocent scribe. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #21 - November 18, 2008, 08:17 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 18, 2008, 07:29 PM
    Quote from: neilmarr on November 18, 2008, 06:04 PM

    The term 'pious fraud' has been used to excuse such fervent enthusiasm, Hassan. In my book, fraud is fraud whatever mitigating circumstance is offered in its defence. And there is no doubt that much of what has been handed down to us (by all scripture-based monotheisms) was written for nefarious reasons to manipulate the people and back up wobbly untruth.



    Not sure about 'pious fraud' - I think they genuinely believed God was talking to them.

    From my reading of the pre-Islamic period (and I suspect Biblical times were similar), it was not uncommon for people to come out with ecstatic sayings, dirge type utterances, poetry, or rhyming prose they thought were divinely inspired.

    It seems to have been an environment where it was easier to accept that God was talking to you.

    It still is Hassan. Not so much in westernised countries, but in parts of Africa and especially in southern India there are more 'Holymen' than you can shake a stick at. It's estimated that there are thousands of 'Godmen' in Kerala alone.

    http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,62144
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #22 - November 18, 2008, 09:13 PM
    Quote from: awais.x on November 18, 2008, 04:51 PM
    “Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca

    Great quote.  Afro
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #23 - November 18, 2008, 10:30 PM
    Quote from: neilmarr on November 18, 2008, 08:14 PM
    ***Not sure about 'pious fraud' - I think they genuinely believed God was talking to them***


    So that makes them pious. Doesn't mean they're not fraudsters. Certainly in the New Testament canon and other early writings, though, Hussan, additions, deletions and adjustments are often blatantly calculated to justify Church dogma and underpin clerical authority rather than being the possible result of perceived divine inspiration by a befuddled but innocent scribe. Neil


    It would only be fraudulent if they knew they knew they were deceiving others.  I think the point is that the original compilers may very well thought they were doing exactly right... no deception involved.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #24 - November 18, 2008, 10:49 PM
    Quote from: Variable on November 18, 2008, 10:30 PM
    Quote from: neilmarr on November 18, 2008, 08:14 PM
    ***Not sure about 'pious fraud' - I think they genuinely believed God was talking to them***


    So that makes them pious. Doesn't mean they're not fraudsters. Certainly in the New Testament canon and other early writings, though, Hussan, additions, deletions and adjustments are often blatantly calculated to justify Church dogma and underpin clerical authority rather than being the possible result of perceived divine inspiration by a befuddled but innocent scribe. Neil


    It would only be fraudulent if they knew they knew they were deceiving others.  I think the point is that the original compilers may very well thought they were doing exactly right... no deception involved.


    You're saying that, in Islam, say, they didn't throw in the bit about 'this is your last prophet, disregard all else' fpr their own benefit?
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #25 - November 18, 2008, 11:05 PM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on November 18, 2008, 10:49 PM

    You're saying that, in Islam, say, they didn't throw in the bit about 'this is your last prophet, disregard all else' fpr their own benefit?



    I'm not talking about Islam necessarily.  In fact I'd say it'd be pretty far out if the Prophet actually thought he was a direct link to God.  I mean, he evoked God to get his dinner guests to leave... because he was too embarrassed to ask them himself.

    But there are a lot of different religions out there based on a lot of different models.  I'd be cautious in saying that all religious texts were based on efforts to try and control people. 
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #26 - November 18, 2008, 11:50 PM
    Quote from: Variable on November 18, 2008, 11:05 PM
    I'd be cautious in saying that all religious texts were based on efforts to try and control people. 


    The Abrahamic faiths I believe were exactly that.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #27 - November 19, 2008, 12:46 AM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on November 18, 2008, 11:50 PM
    Quote from: Variable on November 18, 2008, 11:05 PM
    I'd be cautious in saying that all religious texts were based on efforts to try and control people. 


    The Abrahamic faiths I believe were exactly that.


    The only issue I have with that is what a mess Christianity evolved from.  It certainly became a textbook example of how to control people through fear... though I'm not sure if the folks who actually compiled a lot of the early scripture thought it was going to turn out that way.  And even then, that wasn't an even process - some may have, others may not have.
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #28 - November 19, 2008, 07:45 AM
    You're admirably tolerant, Hassan. I notice this in your videos, too. It speaks well of you.

    With the best will in the world, though, what you're saying here boils down to this: "Scriptural authors were not necessarily always fabricators and manipulators; many might well have truly believed themselves divinely inspired."

    You may be right. But this leaves us with a choice between liars and madmen, does it not?

    Best. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Fiction or Truth?
     Reply #29 - November 19, 2008, 09:33 AM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on November 18, 2008, 11:50 PM
    Quote from: Variable on November 18, 2008, 11:05 PM
    I'd be cautious in saying that all religious texts were based on efforts to try and control people. 


    The Abrahamic faiths I believe were exactly that.


    Yeah, but you believe a lot of nonsense.
    Like that Calpurnius Piso may have a hand in writing the gospels!  Cheesy

    As if a member of the Roman aristocracy generations before Jesus´birth cared a whit about the remote backwater of Judaea and the weirdo Jews in it, let alone devise a plan, that after THREE HUNDRED YEARS converted about 10% of the population, no more... sure!  Afro
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