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Theme Changer

 Topic: Karma?

 (Read 12889 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Karma?
     OP - November 17, 2008, 07:59 PM
    How many people believe that what you do has some sort of come back? What goes around comes around?

    That if you do good, it will come back to you sometime somewhere?

    That if you do bad - it will rebound on you - sometime - someplace?

    Is there a cosmic force that brings about some sort of justice and balance in the universe we live in?

    Or is there nothing? No cosmic justice for those who got none in this world? No recognition for the little bits of good you do when no-one sees? No come-back for the evil?
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #1 - November 17, 2008, 08:19 PM
    I used to believe in some form of karma, now I don't because bad things happen to good people, and if that is karma then it sucks.

    I have seen bad/nasty people get good things, live long and fruitful lives, have plenty of money, and karma seems to be ok with this too.

    I don't believe that anything comes back at all.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #2 - November 17, 2008, 08:26 PM
    I don't believe in karma, but I do think people who do hateful things to others end up becoming their own worst enemy.  I've seen many examples of it, the most extreme one being somebody who killed herself, because she became so hateful and knew it. 
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #3 - November 17, 2008, 08:29 PM
    I don't believe in karma, but the concept itself is something appealing, that wants me to believe will/should/has be true.
    I was not blessed with the ability to have blind faith. I cant beleive something just because someone says its true.
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #4 - November 17, 2008, 08:31 PM
    Quote from: Anti-Jihadist on November 17, 2008, 08:29 PM
    I don't believe in karma, but the concept itself is something appealing, that wants me to believe will/should/has be true.


    Yes, it definately appeals to me to believe it, it's kind of annoying that it isn't true.  Tongue
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #5 - November 17, 2008, 09:23 PM
    No because good and bad will happen either way, not because of your actions, I think. It would be wonderful if it were true, though. Evil doers get away with too much.
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #6 - November 18, 2008, 01:46 AM
    basic physics, every action has an equal and opposite reaction! karma is just an extension of science into more spiritual stuff.

    from my experiences anyway bad stuff has always happened to me if i did bad stuff. not realy sure if doing good stuff insures good stuff though.

    none the less Karma plays a big part of how i personally see life. what you think hassan?
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #7 - November 18, 2008, 07:52 AM
    Quote from: Lenin on November 18, 2008, 01:46 AM
    basic physics, every action has an equal and opposite reaction! karma is just an extension of science into more spiritual stuff.

    from my experiences anyway bad stuff has always happened to me if i did bad stuff. not realy sure if doing good stuff insures good stuff though.

    none the less Karma plays a big part of how i personally see life. what you think hassan?


    I do think that the good and bad we do has consequences - just don't know how that works.


  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #8 - November 18, 2008, 09:20 AM
    Hi Hassan,
    Being from Hindu background, I have seen good and bad effects of Karma theory.

    Good side is, some people take responsibility of themselves never blaming the circumstances etc.. Plus, when they are in difficulites, they think their unwholesome Karma is being washed of and they are leading to more pure existence.

    However, the bad side is to 'punish the victims'. People tend to think that the widows, lepers, orphans, diseased etc. are sufferning because they did something in their past lives. And this understanding can lead to very insenstive social structure. 

    I do believe in responsibility and accountability of my action. However, if something bad happens to somone, I don't think it is necessarily due to Karma.
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #9 - November 18, 2008, 10:23 AM
    ***No cosmic justice for those who got none in this world? No recognition for the little bits of good you do when no-one sees? No come-back for the evil?***

    If not in this world, Hassan, certainly in no other. Knowing that, though, should be no more an encouragement to do bad than a dissuasion to do good.

    We are responsible for our actions in the here-and-now. There is no divine reward or punishment other than what we leave behind us. We can't go on blaming a non-existent devil for evil or expecting a non-existent god to balance the books and shower us with pleasures in a non-existent afterlife for all those good turns we did.

    We carry the can, and those around us suffer or benefit in the present and future according to how we act. And those burdened with lives of injustice have the rest of us to rightly blame. No god has forsaken them ... we have.

    Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #10 - November 18, 2008, 10:25 AM
    Quote from: neilmarr on November 18, 2008, 10:23 AM
    ***No cosmic justice for those who got none in this world? No recognition for the little bits of good you do when no-one sees? No come-back for the evil?***

    If not in this world, Hassan, certainly in no other.


    How come you know this Neil? How was it so conclusively proved? Cheers, Jack.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #11 - November 18, 2008, 10:26 AM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on November 18, 2008, 10:25 AM
    Quote from: neilmarr on November 18, 2008, 10:23 AM
    ***No cosmic justice for those who got none in this world? No recognition for the little bits of good you do when no-one sees? No come-back for the evil?***

    If not in this world, Hassan, certainly in no other.


    How come you know this Neil? How was it so conclusively proved? Cheers, Jack.


    Because he´s an ATHEIST, that means, by definition - RIGHT.  Roll Eyes - and I wonder, who one is responsible TO, if there is... nothing. Why give a shyt about anyone?  Huh?
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #12 - November 18, 2008, 10:27 AM
    Quote from: diotima on November 18, 2008, 10:26 AM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on November 18, 2008, 10:25 AM
    Quote from: neilmarr on November 18, 2008, 10:23 AM
    ***No cosmic justice for those who got none in this world? No recognition for the little bits of good you do when no-one sees? No come-back for the evil?***

    If not in this world, Hassan, certainly in no other.


    How come you know this Neil? How was it so conclusively proved? Cheers, Jack.


    Because he´s an ATHEIST, that means, by definition - RIGHT.  Roll Eyes - and I wonder, who one is responsible TO, if there is... nothing. Why give a shyt about anyone?  Huh?


    He may be an atheist, but I still want proof!
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #13 - November 18, 2008, 10:38 AM
    ***How come you know this Neil? How was it so conclusively proved?***

    The burden of proof is on the claimant, Jack. And extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. No religion has come up with a shred in all the thousands of years they've been trying.

    ***Why give a shyt about anyone?***

    I hope you're not suggesting, Diotima, that you only do the decent thing because you're in terror of divine punishment or seek some celestial reward. We really should need no incentive to play fair by our earth-born companions and fellow mortals (my fellow-Scot Jack/Jock will know where that came from).

    Thanks for the smilies, chaps. Your points (and not-so-tongue-in-cheek criticisms) taken in the same good spirit in which they were offered.

    Very best. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #14 - November 18, 2008, 10:45 AM
    No, I am not behaving because am in fear of divine punishment - but there´s no reason other than EARTHLY punishment for YOU. Not even a viable definition of what "doing the decent thing" is, except the prejudices your parents raised you with. Atheists like to gloss that fact over. Unless, of course, they are honest, like Nietzsche. Few of the sorry lot are.  cool2
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #15 - November 18, 2008, 10:49 AM
    Quote from: neilmarr on November 18, 2008, 10:38 AM
    ***How come you know this Neil? How was it so conclusively proved?***

    The burden of proof is on the claimant, Jack.


    Yeah and you claim there is nothing more to life. So how about explaining how you found the evidence to prove this. You can't, so therefore be honest.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #16 - November 18, 2008, 11:32 AM
    Jack, I'm making no claim. You are. You say there's an invisible, all-knowing, omnipresent and personal god. And now you're asking me to provide proof that such an entity doesn't exist. Requiring proof of a negative is patently daft. You must prove your claim of this strange being, just as I would if I insisted there were fairies at the bottom of my garden.

    Diotima: Morality and ethics are not god-given qualities. There is an evolutionary basis for some, the rest have been developed by society over the ages. Mankind was around (let's take middle ground) for maybe 100,000 years before Moses came down from the mountain with his ten commandments. Do you eriously think people were running around stealing each other's asses and murdering their neighbours in the belief that this was all quite fine behaviour earlier in the week?

    "Gosh, if only I'd known 'though shalt not kill' yesterday, I wouldn't have skewered Daniel from next door with my spear ... I mean ... well, OK, he pinched my best goat and barbecued it, but he knew no better yesterday because God hadn't told him 'though shalt not steal' yet."

    C'mon, Dotima: divine inspiration and direction has nothing at all to do with it. We do good in spite of religion rather than because of it. Atheists and theists are equally likely to do good or bad.

    Cheers. Neil

    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #17 - November 18, 2008, 11:42 AM
    Quote from: neilmarr on November 18, 2008, 11:32 AM
    Jack, I'm making no claim. You are.


    Yes you are: 'If not in this world, Hassan, certainly in no other.'

     And no I'm not. I don't know the answer. Cheers Jack.


    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #18 - November 18, 2008, 11:52 AM
    So if I was to tell you, Jack, that the world had been created by an invisible cosmic tutle and that he rules over us and will take us to a pleasant paradise after death where we will all live happily for eternity as angel turtles in celestial fields of pink lettuce and purple cabbage (unless we were bad, in which case we'll be the main course at an everlasting barbecue), you'd humbly agree that you couldn't prove otherwise?

    The only reason why a claim like the above is perceived as having any less credibility than your own is simply that your claim has been around longer and swallowed by more people (at least, I think so ... but who knows, maybe the divine tortoise pre-dates the man-shaped god who can build a universe in six days and doesn't get along too well with talking snakes).

    Slainte. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #19 - November 18, 2008, 11:55 AM
    Quote from: neilmarr on November 18, 2008, 11:52 AM
    So if I was to tell you, Jack, that the world had been created by an invisible cosmic tutle and that he rules over us and will take us to a pleasant paradise after death where we will all live happily for eternity as angel turtles in celestial fields of pink lettuce and purple cabbage (unless we were bad, in which case we'll be the main course at an everlasting barbecue), you'd humbly agree that you couldn't prove otherwise?

    The only reason why a claim like the above is perceived as having any less credibility than your own is simply that your claim has been around longer and swallowed by more people (at least, I think so ... but who knows, maybe the divine tortoise pre-dates the man-shaped god who can build a universe in six days and doesn't get along too well with talking snakes).

    Slainte. Neil


    My claim that I don't know, you mean - or are you referring to something else?

    How about answering my question? It's not diffficult, go back a post, re read and answer without waffling, cheers, Jack.

    PS - could you put 'cheers NeilMarr, just so we can be sure it is the right neil? Many thanks. Smiley
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #20 - November 18, 2008, 12:20 PM
    ***My claim that I don't know, you mean***

    That's not a claim, Jack. That's an honest admission. I believe, understand and respect that.

    My argument is against the great unlikelihood that is claimed as truth without a shred of evidence. That unlikelihood is so great, in fact, that it has faded through the improbable zone into the impossible. It is for those claiming the existence of this entity to provide positive proof, as explained my 'waffle'earlier.

    ***could you put 'cheers NeilMarr, just so we can be sure it is the right neil?***

    Why, Jack? Many folks don't sign off at all. I just do it out of courtesy. And my full name is over there <-<-<- on the left with its usual picture of Adam giving God the bird, so there can be no confusion between me and all the other Neils here.

    Cheers. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #21 - November 18, 2008, 12:21 PM
    Quote from: neilmarr on November 18, 2008, 12:20 PM
    ***My claim that I don't know, you mean***

    That's not a claim, Jack. That's an honest admission. I believe, understand and respect that.



    Great, but why then can't you admit the same? Instead of pointing out the 'certainty' that there is nothing at all??
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #22 - November 18, 2008, 12:28 PM
    ***Great, but why then can't you admit the same? Instead of pointing out the 'certainty' that there is nothing at all??***

    I've explained this, Jack. The god claim has no merit whatsoever. Not one of all the countless god claims ever has. Are you only 'agnostic' when it comes to my Cosmic Tortoise, then? Is that because you can't prove he doesn't exist? Are you willing to entertain the possibility that the Cosmic tortoise is real? Best. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #23 - November 18, 2008, 12:30 PM
    Quote from: neilmarr on November 18, 2008, 12:28 PM
    ***Great, but why then can't you admit the same? Instead of pointing out the 'certainty' that there is nothing at all??***

    I've explained this, Jack. The god claim has no merit whatsoever. Not one of all the countless god claims ever has. Are you only 'agnostic' when it comes to my Cosmic Tortoise, then? Is that because you can't prove he doesn't exist? Are you willing to entertain the possibility that the Cosmic tortoise is real? Best. Neil


    You're waffling again. My question is - how can you back up your assertion/certainty that there is nothing?
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #24 - November 18, 2008, 12:58 PM
    I'm sorry to have to point out, Jack, that I'm not the one who's guilty of waffling here. I cannot entertain the remotest possibility of an entity for which there is absolutely no evidence or even need.

    Which particular god is it, by the way, that you're uncertain of and that you would like me to at least not rule out? There are thousands to take your pick from.

    Perhaps you'd like me to say that half a dozen specific gods are possible, so I don't really know? Maybe just Thor and Zeus? Maybe the entire pantheon? Maybe just Egyptian gods of specific era -- or an elephant god or perhaps one from Easter Island or Yaweh and Allah or one of the several hundred great white spirits of the Native American tribes?

    So which god would you like me to provide evidence against? I'm spoiled for choice.

    Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #25 - November 18, 2008, 01:25 PM
    is life without god or religion or anytype of faith a bit depressing? Cry

    don't we all need some sort of meaning in life be it islam, politics or liquor?
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #26 - November 18, 2008, 01:40 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 17, 2008, 07:59 PM
    How many people believe that what you do has some sort of come back? What goes around comes around?

    That if you do good, it will come back to you sometime somewhere?

    That if you do bad - it will rebound on you - sometime - someplace?

    Is there a cosmic force that brings about some sort of justice and balance in the universe we live in?

    Or is there nothing? No cosmic justice for those who got none in this world? No recognition for the little bits of good you do when no-one sees? No come-back for the evil?


    Yes I believe in Karma, No I don't believe that Karma is a cosmic or supernatural force. It is not carrot and stick it is just a skillful life as opposed to an unskillful one.

    I think the best way I could explain my view of Karma is that doing bad things is to do unskillful things. It is kind of like trying to swim against the tide. To steal lie and do bad things is to go against the flow of life and the majority of humanity, sooner or later it will go tits up.

    If you are happy, helpful, loving and do good things then people will want you around, your life will go smoothly and good things will happen.

    Add into that your conscience (If you have one ;-) As Thich Naht Hahn says, your mind is like a bank. If you deposit good deeds you get good thoughts and they create a positive attitude, if you deposit negative thoughts...Well you get the idea

    If I do things that are offensive to my conscience I feel pangs of guilt whenever I recollect those things. It's kind of like instant Karma.

    Also those pangs of guilt are negative energy and emotion, negative energy and emotion holds you back and feeds unskillful behavior.

    Your bad habits then snowball and your life can become a shitstorm.

    That's my secular view of Karma.

  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #27 - November 18, 2008, 01:44 PM
    ***is life without god or religion or anytype of faith a bit depressing?***

    Why should it be, Lenin? You suggesting on an ex-Muslim board that religion makes people happy? You don't need 'faith' in reality. Reality is all around us, and it's a marvel. Some is beautiful, some is ugly. I've been an atheist for as long as I can remember -- at least half a century. I approach every day with enthusiasm and I'm one heck of a lot more optimistic about the future of mankind than any religious person I know. I can think of nothing more depressing that the dogmas and predictions of religion. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #28 - November 18, 2008, 02:14 PM
    neil, i dont mean necesirly religion! i mean something. i no its quite cheesy but love is what i feel gives life meaning. loveing someone, (or in my case football Cheesy)  is finding meaning to stuff not part of human nature?
  • Re: Karma?
     Reply #29 - November 18, 2008, 02:20 PM
    Quote from: neilmarr on November 18, 2008, 11:32 AM
    Jack, I'm making no claim. You are. You say there's an invisible, all-knowing, omnipresent and personal god. And now you're asking me to provide proof that such an entity doesn't exist. Requiring proof of a negative is patently daft. You must prove your claim of this strange being, just as I would if I insisted there were fairies at the bottom of my garden.

    Diotima: Morality and ethics are not god-given qualities. There is an evolutionary basis for some, the rest have been developed by society over the ages. Mankind was around (let's take middle ground) for maybe 100,000 years before Moses came down from the mountain with his ten commandments. Do you eriously think people were running around stealing each other's asses and murdering their neighbours in the belief that this was all quite fine behaviour earlier in the week?

    "Gosh, if only I'd known 'though shalt not kill' yesterday, I wouldn't have skewered Daniel from next door with my spear ... I mean ... well, OK, he pinched my best goat and barbecued it, but he knew no better yesterday because God hadn't told him 'though shalt not steal' yet."

    C'mon, Dotima: divine inspiration and direction has nothing at all to do with it. We do good in spite of religion rather than because of it. Atheists and theists are equally likely to do good or bad.

    Cheers. Neil



    Lord, you really don´t have the first clue about moral philosophy, do you? Does the word "naturalist fallacy" ring a bell?

    Nevermind. Yawn
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »