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 Topic: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy

 (Read 7400 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     OP - November 14, 2008, 05:06 AM

    http://www.jewcy.com/post/antimuslim_bigotry

    Quote
    ...you shouldn’t fall into the trap of thinking that religions that claim to be monolithic, unchanging, and directly transmitted by God, really do have those qualities. Follow any religion through the ages, and see how it changes. Look beyond the claims of coherence and universality, and look at the variation in its practice. If the Bible tells us anything of value it is this. Humans are schizmatic. We disagree with each other. We love to innovate and disobey. What matters about a religion is how it is practiced, and what its adherents say and do. For a bigot or an Islamist to lecture a Muslim who does not want a theocratic state on his supposed failings as a Muslim, is not only grossly offensive: it utterly misunderstands the diverse and mutable nature of religious faith and practice.


    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #1 - November 14, 2008, 05:25 AM

    Good article there. I like it.  Afro

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #2 - November 14, 2008, 09:39 PM

    Absolutely, take buddhism for example.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #3 - November 14, 2008, 09:40 PM

    Ok. Where do you want me to take it?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #4 - November 14, 2008, 10:10 PM

    As far as I'm aware , it's a schism that's avoided all the perfidy of outrageous , vested ambition.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #5 - November 14, 2008, 10:42 PM

    http://www.jewcy.com/post/antimuslim_bigotry

    Quote
    ...you shouldn’t fall into the trap of thinking that religions that claim to be monolithic, unchanging, and directly transmitted by God, really do have those qualities. Follow any religion through the ages, and see how it changes. Look beyond the claims of coherence and universality, and look at the variation in its practice. If the Bible tells us anything of value it is this. Humans are schizmatic. We disagree with each other. We love to innovate and disobey. What matters about a religion is how it is practiced, and what its adherents say and do. For a bigot or an Islamist to lecture a Muslim who does not want a theocratic state on his supposed failings as a Muslim, is not only grossly offensive: it utterly misunderstands the diverse and mutable nature of religious faith and practice.



    Excellent article Awais - pretty much what we on this forum have been saying for a long time - well apart from certain people Wink

    I liked this bit:

    "It should be pretty easy, by now, to spot an anti-Muslim bigot. The giveaways, for me, include the following:

    - Muslims are thought of an a homogenous bloc, without differentiation (sometimes referred to as “The Muslims”)

    - Muslims are presented as either conspirators or dupes of a Muslim conspiracy to subvert the West.

    - Muslims are attempting to take over the West by outbreeding non-Muslims.

    - Any Muslim who denies this is either engaging in “Taqiyya” or has simply yet to realise the true nature of their religion."
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #6 - November 18, 2008, 05:44 AM

    I think that anything created by humans has the potential to be changed by humans for the better.

    Christianity has improved a lot since the bloodstained centuries of the middle ages. Nowadays most radical Christinans only blindly accept the Bible as the perfect word of god and say nasty things about gays. Long gone are the days of torturing and burning heretics alive.

    Christians have responded to modernity by moderating their religion and ignoring whole swathes of scripture. For most Christians the Bible is a human text merely inspired by god, as such it is open to interpretation

    The difficulty with Islam are the dogmas of Koranic purity and perfection and all of the taboos and prohibitions that traditionally go with any tampering or questioning of the Koran and Mohammad. In this sense Islam is in a uniquely difficult position when it comes to reform. Not to mention the penalty for apostasy and potential for eruptions of violence from the radicals. It's a very brave Muslim indeed who tries to reform Islam from the inside.

    For Buddhists one of Buddhas core teachings was not to take anything on authority. Try it yourself if it works accept it if not discard it. There is no argument from authority or demand for faith in Buddhism.

    Buddhism started as a philosophy, a way of life, a science of the mind and a profoundly un-superstitious set of teachings. But over the years most Buddhist countries practice Buddhism in a way that closely resembles monotheism.

    They pray to Buddha, they fear hell realms and believe good things will happen if they donate money to temples and bow down to the right statues and there are spirits to worry about in everything from the kitchen table to the Family Mart. Eastern Buddhism as much as it is revered has changed for the worse over the centuries. Western Buddhism as followed by the more new age crowd is much more rational and seems closer to the true teachings of Buddha.

    Judaism! does it really need reform? relatively speaking there are not many Jews, most Jews are secular and Judaism doesn't proselytise and convert. Although the Messianic settlers need a kick up the arse NOW.

    Hinduism is so confused and nutty I don't know what to say, it certainly has some very nasty doctrines like the caste system and widow burning plus it's fare share of violent radicals like the Shiv Sena. Reform in Hinduism seems to be happening all the time, from day to day, sometimes for the worse sometimes for the better. Hinduism is definitely not a monolith.

    There is hope for religious reform but in my view Islam is much more hermetically sealed than other religious doctrines. I would be interested to hear what some of you ex Muslims think about this. Am I being a bigot or does my theory have some basis in reality.

    I think Sufism is the way forward for Islam or am I being naive about the Sufis? Are they as cool as they seem? 
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #7 - November 18, 2008, 06:11 AM

    Everybody loves sufis. The problem is, with many muslims, sufism is not 'authentic' Islam. They do not follow the letter of the law, they contradict ayaat in the Qur'an, which is why many move towards orthodoxy/'fundamentalism', the desire for authenticity. Which is cool. Wanting to be honest and sincere in the practice of the faith they believe. I don't think watered down sufism will ever be able to challenge that.

    (I to write more later)

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #8 - November 18, 2008, 07:48 AM



    There is hope for religious reform but in my view Islam is much more hermetically sealed than other religious doctrines. I would be interested to hear what some of you ex Muslims think about this. Am I being a bigot or does my theory have some basis in reality.




    I think you summed it all up pretty well, Brucepig. Without doubt Islam poses a much greater problem when it comes to reform.

    I am of the opinion that it will be reformed (it is happening as we speak). I find it dishonest - but I am always amazed by the lengths some Muslims will go to hammer a square peg into a round hole.

    I guess the imperative to save one's religion is more important than being honest to oneself.
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #9 - November 18, 2008, 09:14 AM

    Yup I think you right, there is no end to the verbal and mental gymnastics needed to square the idea of an all loving, merciful, forgiving creator who tortures people for all eternity for not following the right religion but almost all monotheists manage it.

    What struck me in the Koran is that after every horrifying description of what god has planned for the non believer it says something like. "Surely Allah is the most merciful and the most wise"

    It's almost like the author of the Koran decided to highlight this blatant contradiction instead of tucking it away. The mind boggles how so many people keep their faith when such glaring contradictions appear so regularly. As an ex Muslim can you recall how you squared the circle?

    PS: Have any of you guys come across Bob Pitt?

  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #10 - November 18, 2008, 09:21 AM

    PS: Have any of you guys come across Bob Pitt?


    Never heard of him.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #11 - November 18, 2008, 10:30 AM

    Bob Pitt is a Trotskyist supporter of radical Islam.

    He was drafted into City Hall by Ken Livingstone to savage anyone who criticised Sheikh Yusef al-Qaradawi and denounce them as "Islamophobes"

    For some strange reason Boris has kept him in the job.

    He runs a website called islamophobia watch, where he denounces everyone from the notorious racists Peter Tatchell and Maryam Namazie to the crusader Ayan Hirsi Ali and the liar Ed Hussain as "Islamophobes"

    He denounces the brave feminists and unions of Iran as "Islamophobic" and has recently accused The Council of Ex Muslims as being, I quote.

    "a front organisation set up by the Worker-Communist Party of Iran, a rabidly Islamophobic far-left sect. It’s modeled on the Council of Ex-Muslims in the Netherlands launched by Ehsan Jami, who was one of the speakers at the conference. Jami’s an ally of the Dutch far-right racist Geert Wilders"

    He has been contacting people like UNISON to try to get them to freeze out The Council of Ex Muslims as a far left racist movement which is in alliance with the far right.

    So in effect he supports scary right wing clerics and slanders their secular left wing opponents all in the name of supporting the anti imperialist revolutionary vanguard which is.... You've guessed it. The Islamists.

    I do believe it's Bob Pitt who is the far left loony in cahoots with the far right.

    He is a nasty piece of work.

    The reason why I bring him up is despite the definitions of an Anti Muslim bigot posted on this thread this is still a fuzzy area.

    I have heard the BNP make the same criticisms of Islam that ex Muslims make but one is without a doubt a legitimate critique and the other is bigotry but both say the same things.

    I suppose that is why when I white bloke like me makes my criticism people assume I'm in the BNP mold as opposed to the Humanist mold.

    Visa versa when goons like Bob Pitt denounce people for "Islamophobia" he sometimes makes the same arguments a legitimate article like the one in Jewcy makes.

    It can be all rather confusing for the neutral in this debate and all to often you see intelligent people siding with the Pitts, Livingstons and al-Qaradawi's of this world.
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #12 - November 18, 2008, 11:08 AM

    ***I suppose that is why when a white bloke like me makes my criticism people assume I'm in the BNP mold as opposed to the Humanist mold***

    Funny you should mention that, Bruce. I was mentioned in a post on another 'religion-interest' board this morning in the same sentence as the utterly deplorable and nazi BNP. I can't say that didn't pain me.

    The comment, by the way, came from a felow atheist who I know to be a good chap from long contact on that board and another forum where religion, politics and what have you isn't discussed (it's a fiction writers' site), which was an added and unexpected blow below the belt.

    I'm an equal opportunities critic of religion ... I detest all faiths.

    Perhaps the problem is simply one of opportunity. Islam currently provides a disproportionate number of examples of what can happen when religion shows its dark side. It is no worse or better than any other scripture-based monotheism, its faults are just a heck of a lot more visible right now. So those who point them out appear to be biased toward criticism of Islam.

    I'm what's inaccurately called 'white' myself (I've lived in the south of France for twenty-odd years, and I'm more a kind of mucky brown colour). So when I criticise Christianity, Mormonism, Scientologists or Judaism, I'm merely called a godless, heathen, satan-worshipping hedonistic atheist arsehole -- probably a commie child-molesting faggot to boot -- who's bound for hellfire and damnation. That's fine. But when I criticise Islam, I'm suspected of racism. It's so far from the mark as to be laughable (if it wasn't so intensely meant and boody hurtful). And it peeves me a bit that 'racism' is so much more sensationalist that my 'atheism' is overlooked.

    Odd eh?

    Hoots. Neil

    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #13 - November 18, 2008, 11:09 AM

    The mind boggles how so many people keep their faith when such glaring contradictions appear so regularly. As an ex Muslim can you recall how you squared the circle?


    My favourite Qur'anic commentator was Zamakhshari, because he highlighted the use of metaphore, rhetoric and symbolism and other literary mechanisms by which one can get round  the literal meaning.

    And that's what most Muslims do - they say it is either mataphore or has a mystical meaning or was specific to it's context etc...

    One of my brothers is still a practising Muslim - and a lovely guy - and if you were to listen to him you would be amazed at how he manages to explain and philosophize about it all so that  anything is possible! lol
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #14 - November 18, 2008, 11:13 AM

    Hassan,
    The issue is:
    - If original text is violent
    - If original text sounds nonsensical

    After centuries it becomes a Metaphor  Smiley

    That is true with each and every religion.

    The mind boggles how so many people keep their faith when such glaring contradictions appear so regularly. As an ex Muslim can you recall how you squared the circle?


    My favourite Qur'anic commentator was Zamakhshari, because he highlighted the use of metaphore, rhetoric and symbolism and other literary mechanisms by which one can get round  the literal meaning.

    And that's what most Muslims do - they say it is either mataphore or has a mystical meaning or was specific to it's context etc...

    One of my brothers is still a practising Muslim - and a lovely guy - and if you were to listen to him you would be amazed at how he manages to explain and philosophize about it all so that  anything is possible! lol

  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #15 - November 18, 2008, 11:19 AM

    Bob Pitt is a Trotskyist supporter of radical Islam.

    He was drafted into City Hall by Ken Livingstone to savage anyone who criticised Sheikh Yusef al-Qaradawi and denounce them as "Islamophobes"

    For some strange reason Boris has kept him in the job.

    He runs a website called islamophobia watch, where he denounces everyone from the notorious racists Peter Tatchell and Maryam Namazie to the crusader Ayan Hirsi Ali and the liar Ed Hussain as "Islamophobes"

    He denounces the brave feminists and unions of Iran as "Islamophobic" and has recently accused The Council of Ex Muslims as being, I quote.

    "a front organisation set up by the Worker-Communist Party of Iran, a rabidly Islamophobic far-left sect. It’s modeled on the Council of Ex-Muslims in the Netherlands launched by Ehsan Jami, who was one of the speakers at the conference. Jami’s an ally of the Dutch far-right racist Geert Wilders"

    He has been contacting people like UNISON to try to get them to freeze out The Council of Ex Muslims as a far left racist movement which is in alliance with the far right.

    So in effect he supports scary right wing clerics and slanders their secular left wing opponents all in the name of supporting the anti imperialist revolutionary vanguard which is.... You've guessed it. The Islamists.

    I do believe it's Bob Pitt who is the far left loony in cahoots with the far right.

    He is a nasty piece of work.

    The reason why I bring him up is despite the definitions of an Anti Muslim bigot posted on this thread this is still a fuzzy area.

    I have heard the BNP make the same criticisms of Islam that ex Muslims make but one is without a doubt a legitimate critique and the other is bigotry but both say the same things.

    I suppose that is why when I white bloke like me makes my criticism people assume I'm in the BNP mold as opposed to the Humanist mold.

    Visa versa when goons like Bob Pitt denounce people for "Islamophobia" he sometimes makes the same arguments a legitimate article like the one in Jewcy makes.

    It can be all rather confusing for the neutral in this debate and all to often you see intelligent people siding with the Pitts, Livingstons and al-Qaradawi's of this world.


    Wow! I didn't know all this. I met Ken and quite liked him - this is very disappointing though.

    Re-Qaradawi - yes I know he is a literalist/traditionalist Sheikh who supports all sorts of crap. But a point I think a lot of people miss is that he has contradicted many traditional views.

    The fact that he is 'one of them' means that many traditionalists are able to use his arguments to justify - for example, listening to music, drawing pictures and mixing with the opposite sex.

    Now you and I don't see these things as dramatic steps forward - but in the circles he can influence they are huge leaps.
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #16 - November 18, 2008, 12:04 PM

    ***And that's what most Muslims do - they say it is either mataphore or has a mystical meaning or was specific to it's context etc...***

    'People of the book' of all scripture-based religions consider their texts this way, Hassan. Always did. If the words were truly inspired by an almighty god, you'd think he'd have been able to state his meaning clearly, leaving not the shadow of a doubt, to avoid all the misery caused by such wildly different human interpretations, no?

    Neil

    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #17 - November 18, 2008, 12:58 PM

    I used to be a big supporter of Ken from the GLC days up until recently. He was my neighbour in Cricklewood and as far as I was concerned a thoroughly top bloke.

    For me after 911 and the London attacks the halo slipped off the heads of many of the great and good on the left.

    Ken Livingston, Tony Ben, Harold Pinter, John Pilger, Noam Chomsky etc etc

    They have all shown support or made excuses for the anti Semitic, homophobic, misogynistic, theocratic far right.

    They are looking at the world through the same viewfinder that the Islamists are using. They look through it and they see a similar black and white world.

    The leftists see poor, pure innocent victims being attacked by the evil Zionist Crusader hordes and the Islamists see the righteous, brave followers of the one true god being attacked by the evil Zionist Crusader hordes.

    Neither the left or the Islamists are capable of looking at things in perspective because they are both under the yolk of some heavy dogma.

    We all know about Islamist dogma but what is the leftist dogma?

    The leftist dogma is that Muslims are brown and brown people are victims, that Islamist violence has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with the "fact" that Western power is at it's root malevolent.

    In this dogmatic Left wing world Islam is a religion of peace but the West is so tyrannical that Muslims are left no option but to turn to their faith for comfort and strength and use their bodies as bombs.

    The Left have turned logic on it's head to maintain the dual dogmas of the Wests malevolent nature and the perpetual victimhood of ethnic minorities the world over.

    Add to this the revolutionary dream of these old lefty warhorses is lying dead in the rubble of the Berlin Wall so they get a thrill of their younger days when they see the Taliban sticking it to The Capitalist Running Dogs.
     
    What you say about Qaradawi is exactly what Ken and Bob Pitt say about him in his defence and this might be true but I fail to see how Ken can square his values as a leftist with support for a man who openly threatens the leftists, gays and feminists in the Muslim world.

    Progressive or not Qaradawi is a liberals nightmare and no self respecting lefty should be supporting him. But the left have become thoroughly deranged by George Bush unfortunately people like Bob Pitt were always a bit mad.
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #18 - November 18, 2008, 01:12 PM

    ***And that's what most Muslims do - they say it is either mataphore or has a mystical meaning or was specific to it's context etc...***

    'People of the book' of all scripture-based religions consider their texts this way, Hassan. Always did. If the words were truly inspired by an almighty god, you'd think he'd have been able to state his meaning clearly, leaving not the shadow of a doubt, to avoid all the misery caused by such wildly different human interpretations, no?

    Neil


    I have met Christians who say that hell is a metaphor but I have never met a Muslim who says that hell and it's Koranic description is a metaphor.

    I can see how the concept of hell could be a metaphor but if you take the Koranic hell literally then I can't see how the following bits about Allah's all wise and merciful nature could be written off as a metaphor.

    He is either merciful and forgives people or he is not merciful and he makes people drink boiling water for all eternity for not believing in him and his messenger.

    The only way I can square that particular circle is the bits which say Allah is the most merciful after a description of Allahs eternal wrath must be a warning.

    He is merciful to those who believe in him not to those who don't.


    Kind of like a gangster telling his crew how merciful he is to his own as he kneecaps an enemy...!
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #19 - November 18, 2008, 01:59 PM

    I used to be a big supporter of Ken from the GLC days up until recently. He was my neighbour in Cricklewood and as far as I was concerned a thoroughly top bloke.

    For me after 911 and the London attacks the halo slipped off the heads of many of the great and good on the left.

    Ken Livingston, Tony Ben, Harold Pinter, John Pilger, Noam Chomsky etc etc

    They have all shown support or made excuses for the anti Semitic, homophobic, misogynistic, theocratic far right.

    They are looking at the world through the same viewfinder that the Islamists are using. They look through it and they see a similar black and white world.

    The leftists see poor, pure innocent victims being attacked by the evil Zionist Crusader hordes and the Islamists see the righteous, brave followers of the one true god being attacked by the evil Zionist Crusader hordes.

    Neither the left or the Islamists are capable of looking at things in perspective because they are both under the yolk of some heavy dogma.

    We all know about Islamist dogma but what is the leftist dogma?

    The leftist dogma is that Muslims are brown and brown people are victims, that Islamist violence has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with the "fact" that Western power is at it's root malevolent.

    In this dogmatic Left wing world Islam is a religion of peace but the West is so tyrannical that Muslims are left no option but to turn to their faith for comfort and strength and use their bodies as bombs.

    The Left have turned logic on it's head to maintain the dual dogmas of the Wests malevolent nature and the perpetual victimhood of ethnic minorities the world over.

    Add to this the revolutionary dream of these old lefty warhorses is lying dead in the rubble of the Berlin Wall so they get a thrill of their younger days when they see the Taliban sticking it to The Capitalist Running Dogs.
     
    What you say about Qaradawi is exactly what Ken and Bob Pitt say about him in his defence and this might be true but I fail to see how Ken can square his values as a leftist with support for a man who openly threatens the leftists, gays and feminists in the Muslim world.

    Progressive or not Qaradawi is a liberals nightmare and no self respecting lefty should be supporting him. But the left have become thoroughly deranged by George Bush unfortunately people like Bob Pitt were always a bit mad.


    I agree on the whole with everything you said here - though perhaps one shouldn't paint 'the left' with one brush - but certainly what you say is true of the more extreme, fringe and slightly loony left  (of which I think it's fair to say, Ken was a member) grin12

    I was in my younger days fairly left-wing, though largely coz sit-ins were fun and got me out of lectures.

    These days I'm pretty middle of the road.

    I also take what you say about Qaradawi and I have no time for such people now.

    But when I was a liberal Muslim I found his statements and fatwas (on matters that condraticted the Salafi literalists) very useful and I silenced many an ignorant Salafi accusing me of indulging in Haram with a quote from Qaradawi. People like this are of course against gays etc... it comes with their territory - but perhaps we should also recognise their usefulness in prizing open that hermetically sealed safe that is Islam.
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #20 - November 18, 2008, 02:04 PM

    I have never met a Muslim who says that hell and it's Koranic description is a metaphor.


    I know lots - I did myself! But don't ask me how. Now I find it really annoying, because I can no-longer understand how anyone can manage to spin such graphic passages and still be honest to themselves (see my video on Hell) - but they do!
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #21 - November 18, 2008, 02:19 PM

    Hassan,
    My best friend, a Shia Muslim says passages regarding Heaven and Hell are Methaphor. He says heaven is presence of God. And presence of God is so blissful so that it is explained with example of pleasures and in a similar way absence of God is painful. Plus, he says Muslim is one who is submitted to God, so one can never say that a Non Muslim will surely go to hell, because at the time of death many ppl can return to Fitrah, 'natural inclination towards one God' and they will be in heaven too. I have never seen him saying 'O kafir, you will burn in after life' rather he sincerely prayed for the deceased mother of our other Hindu friend so that Allah will have mercy on her.

    I think his claims are dishonest, he does not thik so, but who will argue over hell-heaven and risk a beautiful friendship when I don't even believe in those places.
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #22 - November 18, 2008, 03:44 PM

    "who will argue over hell-heaven and risk a beautiful friendship when I don't even believe in those places"

    Well said, this crystallizes my approach. I avoid politics and religion talk with friends, not because I don't like debating but because people are so easily offended and I don't want to offend friends. 

    Most of my religious friends just couldn't handle a serious critique of their religion without getting angry and the same applies to the lefties. It's funny I can debate the my secular conservative friends.

    I think it is because in my neighbourhood they are in a minority so they are used to being challenged so they take it in their stride.

    The centre right people I know seem to consider their arguments a lot more than my leftists friends who all righteously regurgitate Michael Moore Chomskyesqe screeds.

    I disagree with my conservative friends on many things but I can debate them without the shouting matches that inevitably result when I debate the religious or the lefties.

    The internet is a blessing, I get to say what I want and not loose friends ;-)
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #23 - November 18, 2008, 04:15 PM

    Hassan,
    My best friend, a Shia Muslim says passages regarding Heaven and Hell are Methaphor. He says heaven is presence of God. And presence of God is so blissful so that it is explained with example of pleasures and in a similar way absence of God is painful. Plus, he says Muslim is one who is submitted to God, so one can never say that a Non Muslim will surely go to hell, because at the time of death many ppl can return to Fitrah, 'natural inclination towards one God' and they will be in heaven too. I have never seen him saying 'O kafir, you will burn in after life' rather he sincerely prayed for the deceased mother of our other Hindu friend so that Allah will have mercy on her.


    That pretty much summed up my view back then - and I dare say most ordinary Muslims.

    They use their conscience and heart more than a literal reading of the Qur'an.

    I think his claims are dishonest, he does not thik so, but who will argue over hell-heaven and risk a beautiful friendship when I don't even believe in those places.


    There is absolutely no need to insist that he is wrong and should not pray for a hindu as (according to literalists) have committed the unforgivable sin against God and so will burn in Hell.

    To do so would not only ruin your friendship but it would be arrogant and wrong. Since that is what he sincerely believes and I'm quite sure he is not being dishonest.

    When I say that I find such explanations dishonest - I am of course not accusing others who hold them of being dishonest - only that I find it dishonest according to the way I see it.

    Clearly they see it differently.
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #24 - November 18, 2008, 04:27 PM

    Hassan,
    I did not feel him as dishonest. He is sincere. I used to think the version of Islam he believes in is dishonest. However, I think Islam means different to different people. And if my friend really thinks, Islam offers him spiritual guidance then so be it. Smiley 
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #25 - November 18, 2008, 04:37 PM

    Hassan,
    I did not feel him as dishonest. He is sincere. I used to think the version of Islam he believes in is dishonest. However, I think Islam means different to different people. And if my friend really thinks, Islam offers him spiritual guidance then so be it. Smiley 



    Exactly and good luck to him  Afro
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #26 - November 18, 2008, 04:43 PM

    Hassan,
    Why don't you make a video stating the things you like about Islam and about Muslims?

    So people will be more certain of the position, that it is just you don't believe that Quran is word of God or Muhammed was prophet. Still you have no issues in appreciating good stuff.

    Hassan,
    I did not feel him as dishonest. He is sincere. I used to think the version of Islam he believes in is dishonest. However, I think Islam means different to different people. And if my friend really thinks, Islam offers him spiritual guidance then so be it. Smiley 



    Exactly and good luck to him  Afro

  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #27 - November 18, 2008, 04:51 PM

    Hassan,
    Why don't you make a video stating the things you like about Islam and about Muslims?

    So people will be more certain of the position, that it is just you don't believe that Quran is word of God or Muhammed was prophet. Still you have no issues in appreciating good stuff.



    That's a very good idea.

    My health is not too good at the moment - hopefully when I feel better I will try and do that. Smiley
  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #28 - November 18, 2008, 04:52 PM

    Take care!!
    I hope you are not drinking too much. r u?

    Hassan,
    Why don't you make a video stating the things you like about Islam and about Muslims?

    So people will be more certain of the position, that it is just you don't believe that Quran is word of God or Muhammed was prophet. Still you have no issues in appreciating good stuff.



    That's a very good idea.

    My health is not too good at the moment - hopefully when I feel better I will try and do that. Smiley

  • Re: "Anti-Muslim Bigotry" Article on Jewcy
     Reply #29 - November 18, 2008, 04:54 PM

    Take care!!
    I hope you are not drinking too much. r u?


    No, I seem to be getting that side of things under control now.

    ps - thanks for asking Smiley
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