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Theme Changer

 Topic: The Sabbath?

 (Read 19683 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The Sabbath?
     OP - November 13, 2008, 02:33 PM
    Why is the Sabbath on Saturday for Jews and on Sunday for Christians?

    btw in Arabic Saturday is "Sabt" (in other words; Sabbath).
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #1 - November 13, 2008, 02:35 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 13, 2008, 02:33 PM
    Why is the Sabbath on Saturday for Jews and on Sunday for Christians?

    btw in Arabic Saturday is "Sabt" (in other words; Sabbath).




    Because it's all just a load of old bollocks anyway, why get choosy? Smiley
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #2 - November 13, 2008, 02:53 PM
    Okay, let's get into the language.

    In the bible, God created the heavens and earth and all that in 6 days, and rested on the seventh. In Hebrew, like in Arabic, the days of the week are numbered: Yom Achad (Yawm Al-Ahad), etc. 1-6 (except for Arabic's Jumuah). Saturday is Shabbat, coming from the Hebrew verb 'to rest'. This verb is also in Arabic. In the Qur'an, Surah An-Nabaa' 78:9 "wa ja3alnaa nowmakum subaatan" "And we made your sleep a thing for rest".

    What's funny is, the Qur'an says that God did not get tired on Saturday, but the name As-Sabt persists.

    It get's funnier when Muhammad said the day meant for 'rest' was really Friday, and the Jews were led astray because they preferred Saturday. And that the rules and restrictions for Saturday are a punishment, where Jews take it to be enforced rest, a taste of paradise...

    (I expect you know all this)

    Christians have it on Sunday cuz they felt like changing it to the day Jesus 'rose'.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #3 - November 13, 2008, 03:00 PM
    Quote from: awais.x on November 13, 2008, 02:53 PM
    Okay, let's get into the language.

    In the bible, God created the heavens and earth and all that in 6 days, and rested on the seventh. In Hebrew, like in Arabic, the days of the week are numbered: Yom Achad (Yawn Al-Ahad), etc. 1-6 (except for Arabic's Jumuah). Saturday is Shabbat, coming from the Hebrew verb 'to rest'. This verb is also in Arabic. In the Qur'an, Surah An-Nabaa' 78:9 "wa ja3alnaa nowmakum subaattan" "And we made your sleep a thing for rest".

    What's funny is, the Qur'an says that God did not get tired on Saturday, but the name As-Sabt persists.



    Thanks for that Awais - actually I hadn't made that connection before - between subaata and sabt and the fact that it is not the day of rest in Islam  - but you are absolutely right - quite amusing really  Afro
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #4 - November 13, 2008, 05:11 PM
    I never heard that Mohammed declared Friday the day for rest. I learned we shouldn't "rest" on any day, even Friday, because we should be productive, and also because the day of rest came from the idea that god rested, which Muslims don't believe.

    And I imagine as-Sabt was the Arabic word for Saturday long before Islam came into being, and as powerful as Mohammed was, he apparently was not powerful enough to change a language sheikh
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #5 - November 13, 2008, 05:15 PM
    Quote from: Rational1 on November 13, 2008, 05:11 PM
    I never heard that Mohammed declared Friday the day for rest. I learned we shouldn't "rest" on any day, even Friday, because we should be productive, and also because the day of rest came from the idea that god rested, which Muslims don't believe.


    Yeah, I put rest in quotations, because I meant 'day of worship/observance' or whatever. I was talking to a jew who thought muslims rested on friday like jews do, I told him, "in Surah Jumuah, it says muslims can work on friday, take a break for Jumuah, and then go back to work."
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #6 - November 13, 2008, 05:19 PM
    My resting days are on Mondays because they suck. You're welcome to chill with me.  grin12
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #7 - November 13, 2008, 05:21 PM
    Quote from: Iggy on November 13, 2008, 05:19 PM
    My resting days are on Mondays because they suck. You're welcome to chill with me.  grin12


    I get paid on mondays  Cheesy they don't suck for me.  The next 6 days though, they do suck.  Tongue
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #8 - November 14, 2008, 03:10 AM
    ***Why is the Sabbath on Saturday for Jews and on Sunday for Christians?***

    The most persuasive theory I've come across, Hassan, is double barreled:

    1) Sunday was chosen at the first Nicean Council in 325 by the bishops, largely to help distinguish Christian ritual from Jewish observance of a Saturday Sabbath.

    2) Emperor Constantine himself (responsible for legitimizing Christianity in the Roman Empire and eventually making it the state religion in the 4th Century) did not actually 'convert' to Christianity as the Church would have us believe. He was baptised only on his deathbed as a kind of bet-hedger. He promoted Sunday because he, in fact, was a lifelong and devout worshipper of Solar Invictus, the sun god, and insisted on the Sunday Sabbath in this god's honour.

    There's much evidence to suggest that the day -- passed down to us as Sunday in English and deveal other languages -- was adopted by Christianity for both these reasons.

    Christianity as it has come down to us, of course, was united and encouraged by Constantine purely as a political tool to unite a divided empire. It was in his interest to hold the dogma-establishing councils that standardised the religion universally (or catholically, the word adopted by the Roman Christian Church) and stamped out other, older, now 'heretical' traditions including many gnostic movements.

    This from memory, by the way, so apologies if there's a wee error in detail.

    Cheers. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #9 - November 14, 2008, 04:01 AM
    Quote from: neilmarr on November 14, 2008, 03:10 AM
    ...passed down to us as Sunday in English and deveal other languages...


    deveal?
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #10 - November 14, 2008, 04:03 AM
    Quote from: awais.x on November 14, 2008, 04:01 AM
    Quote from: neilmarr on November 14, 2008, 03:10 AM
    ...passed down to us as Sunday in English and deveal other languages...


    deveal?


    several.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #11 - November 14, 2008, 04:03 AM
    ah, finger slippage.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #12 - November 14, 2008, 05:08 AM
    It was decided on Sunday by a show of hands at the council of Nicea, in the 3rd century, or something. 

    Or, alternatively, its as good a day as any.

    Such are the weighty decisions of Christian doctrine taken. idiot2
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #13 - November 14, 2008, 05:15 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on November 14, 2008, 05:08 AM
    It was decided on Sunday by a show of hands at the council of Nicea, in the 3rd century, or something. 

    Or, alternatively, its as good a day as any.

    Such are the weighty decisions of Christian doctrine taken. idiot2


    Nope - sunday has been "The Lord´s day" from gospel times on - it´s the day of Jesus´resurrection and early christians started celebrating it instead of saturday to mark this, albeit there was some disagreement.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #14 - November 14, 2008, 05:25 AM
    Quote from: diotima on November 14, 2008, 05:15 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on November 14, 2008, 05:08 AM
    It was decided on Sunday by a show of hands at the council of Nicea, in the 3rd century, or something. 

    Or, alternatively, its as good a day as any.

    Such are the weighty decisions of Christian doctrine taken. idiot2


    Nope - sunday has been "The Lord´s day" from gospel times on - it´s the day of Jesus´resurrection and early christians started celebrating it instead of saturday to mark this, albeit there was some disagreement.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday



    It's actually a really good day for it because nothing much happens on Sundays for some reason, as compared to the busy-ness of the rest of the week. Further proof, if needed, that The Lord was a very forward thinking fellow.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #15 - November 14, 2008, 05:33 AM
    Am glad it was information you wanted, Jack, and not another excuse to make inane jokes about religion.  Afro
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #16 - November 14, 2008, 05:39 AM
    So, like I said, its as good a day as any.  Plus, the resurrection thing.  I would have stuck my hand in the air for Sunday too if I'd been a Cardinal at the Council of Nicea, way back when. Smiley
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #17 - November 14, 2008, 05:40 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on November 14, 2008, 05:39 AM
    So, like I said, its as good a day as any.  Plus, the resurrection thing.  I would have stuck my hand in the air for Sunday too if I'd been a Cardinal at the Council of Nicea, way back when. Smiley


    Only that Nicea had nothing whatsoever to do with it.  Roll Eyes
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #18 - November 14, 2008, 05:41 AM
    Quote from: diotima on November 14, 2008, 05:33 AM
    Am glad it was information you wanted, Jack, and not another excuse to make inane jokes about religion.  Afro



    Yeah, who would have thought anyone would have the audacity to make jokes about religion on an ex-religion forum?!! It beggars belief Smiley Good thing that religious folk wouldn't be found hanging out in a such a place, I mean, why would they want to? There are so many forums that cater for all sorts, if one was wanting to defend religion, logically, they would go to the forum of their faith, no?

    Btw, I'm glad you're here and I like you, but I still cannot for the life of me understand why you are here. Huh? I'd love that anomaly explained, somehow I fear I may be waiting a long time for the answer.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #19 - November 14, 2008, 05:42 AM
    Nicea had nothing to do with it?  Which council decided to formalise the rules on the Sabbath then? Huh?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #20 - November 14, 2008, 05:43 AM
    I didn´t know I had to justify my existence to you, Jack - either here, or at all.

    Fyi: Am here for some of the people I have known a long time, is all - certainly not for the "intellectual" input of the frothing-at-the-mouth "ex-religionists". Roll Eyes
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #21 - November 14, 2008, 05:45 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on November 14, 2008, 05:42 AM
    Nicea had nothing to do with it?  Which council decided to formalise the rules on the Sabbath then? Huh?


    None.
    Laodicea (365 - long after Nicea) forbade resting on the jewish sabbath, is all.
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #22 - November 14, 2008, 05:49 AM
    Ahhh, right.  Well, I would have agreed with Laodicea then, no point in resting on a Saturday when all the shops are open. Smiley
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #23 - November 14, 2008, 06:28 AM
    Quote from: diotima on November 14, 2008, 05:43 AM
    I didn´t know I had to justify my existence to you, Jack - either here, or at all.

    Fyi: Am here for some of the people I have known a long time, is all - certainly not for the "intellectual" input of the frothing-at-the-mouth "ex-religionists". Roll Eyes


    You don't Dio, it was a simple question. To avoid the frothing, try not to take the piss out of other people's religions lest you are labelled a hypocrite Afro

    Over and out.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #24 - November 14, 2008, 06:41 AM
    Why do you think I care wether you think me a hypocrite? Dramaqueen-alert on your part?  Roll Eyes
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #25 - November 14, 2008, 07:01 AM
    Quote from: neilmarr on November 14, 2008, 03:10 AM
    ***Why is the Sabbath on Saturday for Jews and on Sunday for Christians?***

    The most persuasive theory I've come across, Hassan, is double barreled:

    1) Sunday was chosen at the first Nicean Council in 325 by the bishops, largely to help distinguish Christian ritual from Jewish observance of a Saturday Sabbath.

    2) Emperor Constantine himself (responsible for legitimizing Christianity in the Roman Empire and eventually making it the state religion in the 4th Century) did not actually 'convert' to Christianity as the Church would have us believe. He was baptised only on his deathbed as a kind of bet-hedger. He promoted Sunday because he, in fact, was a lifelong and devout worshipper of Solar Invictus, the sun god, and insisted on the Sunday Sabbath in this god's honour.

    There's much evidence to suggest that the day -- passed down to us as Sunday in English and deveal other languages -- was adopted by Christianity for both these reasons.

    Christianity as it has come down to us, of course, was united and encouraged by Constantine purely as a political tool to unite a divided empire. It was in his interest to hold the dogma-establishing councils that standardised the religion universally (or catholically, the word adopted by the Roman Christian Church) and stamped out other, older, now 'heretical' traditions including many gnostic movements.

    This from memory, by the way, so apologies if there's a wee error in detail.

    Cheers. Neil


    Thanks Neil Smiley
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #26 - November 14, 2008, 01:00 PM
    Quote from: diotima on November 14, 2008, 06:41 AM
    Why do you think I care wether you think me a hypocrite? Dramaqueen-alert on your part?  Roll Eyes



    I don't think you care, you've made that quite clear. I naively assumed being a hypocrite was nothing to proud of, but I realise with Christians, Catholics, Muslims etc that you all think you have a get out clause, as in 'but my religion is the true one!'. That's fine, but bear in mind it only works in your eyes, but as you say, you don't mind.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #27 - November 15, 2008, 03:01 AM
    The old resurrection theory for Sunday worship may well be an early root. Resurrection, though, was not a commonly held pre-catholic notion. Only when the first council of bishops outlawed various diverse early Christian belief systems and those gospels that didn't make the Nicean cut, calling them 'heretical' and ordering their elimination, was there a consensus.

    And Jack's fun comment might merit more consideration: the Roman Empire had no beef with any pagan religion and -- because many (not only the popular Sol Invictus) incorporated sun worship -- I guess Sunday was a pretty quiet and convenient day for those new Christians who would hitherto have been spending it in the worship of their former gods and mowing the lawn.

    Constantine and his bishops certainly saw the value of incorporating older established religious traditions like this into the new. Christian missionaries continued the policy of assimilation, of course, wherever they wanted to make converts of those holding older religious beliefs, which is why so many annual Christian festivals also coincide with those of older faiths. They appealed to tradition.

    Best. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #28 - November 15, 2008, 03:55 AM
    Quote from: neilmarr on November 15, 2008, 03:01 AM
    The old resurrection theory for Sunday worship may well be an early root. Resurrection, though, was not a commonly held pre-catholic notion. Only when the first council of bishops outlawed various diverse early Christian belief systems and those gospels that didn't make the Nicean cut, calling them 'heretical' and ordering their elimination, was there a consensus.

    And Jack's fun comment might merit more consideration: the Roman Empire had no beef with any pagan religion and -- because many (not only the popular Sol Invictus) incorporated sun worship -- I guess Sunday was a pretty quiet and convenient day for those new Christians who would hitherto have been spending it in the worship of their former gods and mowing the lawn.

    Constantine and his bishops certainly saw the value of incorporating older established religious traditions like this into the new. Christian missionaries continued the policy of assimilation, of course, wherever they wanted to make converts of those holding older religious beliefs, which is why so many annual Christian festivals also coincide with those of older faiths. They appealed to tradition.

    Best. Neil



    Absolutely. The 'hand over' would have been made to appear as seam-less as possible. The surprise is that so many years later, the deception remains intact - ludicrous.

    In Exodus  the  command is to never create any type of image to bow down to.  'Catholics' who before they 'joined up', like all backward tribes, used to enjoy a bit of bowing down to statues,  were allowed to continue,despite 'God's word' , just to keep them happy and onside. They now even had a few 'saints' to worship, even the lovely Mary.  When a religion, from it's very conception, allows such contradictions, (and they all contain them) is it any wonder that it's all one collossal mess now and makes it's followers look stupid? Rightly so, IMO.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: The Sabbath?
     Reply #29 - November 15, 2008, 04:44 AM
    I'm amazed Dio didn't go apeshit about the pagan festivals. She usually does when they're mentioned. yes
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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