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 Topic: A New member named elle

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  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #30 - November 06, 2008, 08:20 PM
    Let me ask a simple question, "Is this an ex-Muslim site? or is this a pukka Muslim site?
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #31 - November 06, 2008, 08:23 PM
    pukka?

    Yes this is an ex-muslim site, but I will not tolerate unwarranted hate towards all muslims. Just as I will not tolerate it for any other group.

    If you do not want to hear our answers and opinions, why join a discussion of those who might know better than you?
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #32 - November 06, 2008, 08:26 PM
    That is why I want to learn from you awais. I have been here a few hours, and you are already getting touchy. What have I said that is not accurate?
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #33 - November 06, 2008, 08:27 PM
    Quote from: MSinghK on November 06, 2008, 04:15 PM
    I like Engineers, very nice community.

    Hehehe.


    Welcome Elle! You sound mucho interesting. 

    piggy
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #34 - November 06, 2008, 08:29 PM
    Your sweeping generalisations of all muslims as a united block, practicing taqiyyah, who secretly wish to jihad you. It's BS.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #35 - November 06, 2008, 08:30 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 06, 2008, 08:12 PM
    Gonzo, why did you choose not to highlight,
    "Qur'an:2:216   "Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it/u][/b]
    Surely if ALLAH has ordained it for all Muslims, then that is what he means, JIHAD. Any other interpretation is Taqiyya to confuse the Kufir?




    Are you accusing me of Taqiyya or being duped by Taqiyya, simply because the verse I did highlight indicates that Jihad is not compulsory? Although fighting is ordained the mention that believers who fight are ranked higher in Allah's favour would indicate that fighting is not a compulsory act but one that secures the believer a better position in paradise.  Despite it not being a pillar of Islam, I've not denied it is an important part of Islamic doctrine.

    Regards,
    Gonzo
    "The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. Whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles" - Ayn Rand
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #36 - November 06, 2008, 08:31 PM
    Well apparently, I am not amusing to some people who are taking things very personally. I am discussing Islamic education on a general basis.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #37 - November 06, 2008, 08:32 PM
    and what I'm trying to say is, there is no such thing as a general basis, you need to get specific. What sect, where? Even then it will vary.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #38 - November 06, 2008, 08:35 PM
    Gonzo, no I am not accusing you of anything. All I am saying is that Jihad, as stressed in the Holy Qur'an is an essential part and parcel of Islam. And that every Muslim knows his duties to Islam are to promote Islam and Jihad is the main route of promoting Islam. Is that not right?
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #39 - November 06, 2008, 08:36 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 06, 2008, 08:31 PM
    Well apparently, I am not amusing to some people who are taking things very personally. I am discussing Islamic education on a general basis.


    I've no problem discussing whether or not Jihad should be considered a pillar of Islam, but your response to my point came across as hostile as in anything other than the interpretation you had just given was Taqiyya to dupe the Kafir, typed in bold letters.

    Regards,
    Gonzo
    "The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. Whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles" - Ayn Rand
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #40 - November 06, 2008, 08:38 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 06, 2008, 08:35 PM
    Gonzo, no I am not accusing you of anything. All I am saying is that Jihad, as stressed in the Holy Qur'an is an essential part and parcel of Islam. And that every Muslim knows his duties to Islam are to promote Islam and Jihad is the main route of promoting Islam. Is that not right?


    No, it is not right.  Your sweeping generalisations about "every muslim" are complete nonsense.  Have you ever actually met a muslim, Elle?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #41 - November 06, 2008, 08:38 PM
    No, it is not right. Don't force your understanding of Islam on muslims. Why don't you go to a muslim forum and ask them? I'm sure you will learn something. Unless you suspect they are lying to you, practicing 'taqiyyah', and hiding their true intentions. Then you can keep your eyes and ears shut, "Lalalalalala".
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #42 - November 06, 2008, 08:41 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 06, 2008, 08:35 PM
    Gonzo, no I am not accusing you of anything. All I am saying is that Jihad, as stressed in the Holy Qur'an is an essential part and parcel of Islam. And that every Muslim knows his duties to Islam are to promote Islam and Jihad is the main route of promoting Islam. Is that not right?


    There are many things that are considered to be an essential part of Islam, as a religious ideology it is totalitarian and there are many rules to follow - however they are not all considered to be one of the main pillars of Islam, which specify the bare minimum needed to be a believer.  The verse you quoted and I highlighted would indicate that although Jihad is ordained, it is not essential to being a believer as those who believe and do not wage Jihad are still considered to be believers - just not as favoured as those who do wage Jihad.

    Regards,
    Gonzo
    "The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. Whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles" - Ayn Rand
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #43 - November 06, 2008, 08:48 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 06, 2008, 08:31 PM
    Well apparently, I am not amusing to some people who are taking things very personally. I am discussing Islamic education on a general basis.



    It's the way you say it.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #44 - November 06, 2008, 08:53 PM
    [quoteThe verse you quoted and I highlighted would indicate that although Jihad is ordained, it is not essential to being a believer as those who believe and do not wage Jihad are still considered to be believers - just not as favoured as those who do wage Jihad.[/quote]

    That is all I am saying, that all Muslims accept the concept of Jihad, but if they choose to sit at home and not perform lesser Jihad, they are not considered "as favoured." But should not all Muslims want to be considered "most favored" if possible? So if the opportunity presented itself, they would try to attain that favored position? I would if I were a believer because it is only a natural thing to do.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #45 - November 06, 2008, 08:55 PM
    Getting on with your life and not bothering with irrelevant concepts like Jihad is also a natural thing to do, which is obviously why that is exactly what most muslims do do.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #46 - November 06, 2008, 08:57 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 06, 2008, 08:35 PM
    Gonzo, no I am not accusing you of anything. All I am saying is that Jihad, as stressed in the Holy Qur'an is an essential part and parcel of Islam. And that every Muslim knows his duties to Islam are to promote Islam and Jihad is the main route of promoting Islam. Is that not right?


    No, although I have known some of the wannabe Jihadi crowds, I have also known muslims who do not believe that Jihad is called for right now.

    Not all muslim believe it is their goal to promote Jihad, or Islam through Jihad.  The muslim world is so fragmented that even if one imam declares Jihad, only his sect will follow and a few stragglers here and there.

    If the muslim world ever came under the banner of a khalifa again, then I would seriously worry because Jihad could be called and would become compulsory.

    However I doubt that will happen, because the muslim world is nowhere near close enough to a united front to ever agree upon a leader.

    It's not taqqiya to say that, it's factual.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #47 - November 06, 2008, 08:57 PM
    Jack, unfortunately, engineers tend to be very economical with their words and perhaps it may sound harsh or uncompromising, but that is not the intent. The Intent is to discuss and air each others views freely without taking it personally.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #48 - November 06, 2008, 09:00 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 06, 2008, 08:53 PM
    Quote from: gonzo
    The verse you quoted and I highlighted would indicate that although Jihad is ordained, it is not essential to being a believer as those who believe and do not wage Jihad are still considered to be believers - just not as favoured as those who do wage Jihad.


    That is all I am saying, that all Muslims accept the concept of Jihad, but if they choose to sit at home and not perform lesser Jihad, they are not considered "as favoured." But should not all Muslims want to be considered "most favored" if possible? So if the opportunity presented itself, they would try to attain that favored position? I would if I were a believer because it is only a natural thing to do.


    On that point I agree, although bear in mind that Jihad would require a great deal of effort and zealousness from a believer and human nature being what it is, regardless of religion, not all muslims are particularly observant or pious, you identified this in your article under nominal muslims, although I think the term should cover moderate muslims as well.

    However, my argument was that Jihad shouldn't be classified as a pillar of Islam per se, which is what you were initially declaring.

    Regards,
    Gonzo
    "The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. Whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles" - Ayn Rand
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #49 - November 06, 2008, 09:07 PM
    gonzo, in some sects it is a part of their manifesto. I will find the link some time and post it. But I find that what is essential is what the Prophet meant when he said it. And from reading the Koran I think he meant every word of Qur'an:2:216 when it was written. But to deny or to say that it meant something less is, to me, rather misleading. I apologize if some of you do not see it that way, but that is my reading of the Qur'an.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #50 - November 06, 2008, 09:09 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 06, 2008, 09:07 PM
    gonzo, in some sects it is a part of their manifesto. I will find the link some time and post it. But I find that what is essential is what the Prophet meant when he said it. And from reading the Koran I think he meant every word of Qur'an:2:216 when it was written. But to deny or to say that it meant something less is, to me, rather misleading. I apologize if some of you do not see it that way, but that is my reading of the Qur'an.


    Ahem:

    Quote from: BerberElla on November 06, 2008, 08:57 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 06, 2008, 08:35 PM
    Gonzo, no I am not accusing you of anything. All I am saying is that Jihad, as stressed in the Holy Qur'an is an essential part and parcel of Islam. And that every Muslim knows his duties to Islam are to promote Islam and Jihad is the main route of promoting Islam. Is that not right?


    No, although I have known some of the wannabe Jihadi crowds, I have also known muslims who do not believe that Jihad is called for right now.

    Not all muslim believe it is their goal to promote Jihad, or Islam through Jihad.  The muslim world is so fragmented that even if one imam declares Jihad, only his sect will follow and a few stragglers here and there.

    If the muslim world ever came under the banner of a khalifa again, then I would seriously worry because Jihad could be called and would become compulsory.

    However I doubt that will happen, because the muslim world is nowhere near close enough to a united front to ever agree upon a leader.

    It's not taqqiya to say that, it's factual.


    No one is misleading you, you seem to not really want to understand it though.  Wink
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #51 - November 06, 2008, 09:09 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 06, 2008, 09:07 PM
    in some sects... my reading of the Qur'an.


    Thou shalt not force thy understanding of a system on it's practitioners.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #52 - November 06, 2008, 09:16 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 06, 2008, 07:47 PM
    lumus, I believe that that is exactly what you cannot do in Islam. Either you accept the 6 pillars of Islam or you are not a Muslim? Yes or No?

    But some do leave, Elle, hence this forum and this council.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #53 - November 06, 2008, 09:28 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 06, 2008, 09:07 PM
    gonzo, in some sects it is a part of their manifesto. I will find the link some time and post it. But I find that what is essential is what the Prophet meant when he said it. And from reading the Koran I think he meant every word of Qur'an:2:216 when it was written. But to deny or to say that it meant something less is, to me, rather misleading. I apologize if some of you do not see it that way, but that is my reading of the Qur'an.


    There are numerous sects and Islamic groups, some of which do advocate that Jihad is an essential part of Islam, but as not all sects are in agreement on the issue it is safe to say that Jihad is not a pillar of Islam (which encompasses universal requirements for all muslims.)  Indeed there are some sects of Islam that do support the notion that Jihad is the 6th Pillar (although the mainstream sunni consensus is that the notion of there being more than 5 pillars is heretical) and Shia muslims include Jihad as part of their principles of faith.

    I am not disputing that Jihad is a significant and dangerous part of Islam, merely that it is not a pillar of Islam, as considered by the majority of Muslims.

    Regards,
    Gonzo
    "The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. Whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles" - Ayn Rand
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #54 - November 06, 2008, 09:33 PM
    Quote from: Gonzo
    I am not disputing that Jihad is a significant and dangerous part of Islam, merely that it is not a pillar of Islam, as considered by the majority of Muslims.

    Perfect summary, Gonzo.  Afro
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #55 - November 06, 2008, 09:46 PM
    BerberElla, The Ahmadiyya religious sect proclaim they do not believe in "offensive Jihad" but will accept "defensive Jihad" but most other sects do not make this sought of distinction. But then there could be a long discussion of what constitutes "defensive" and what "offensive" means. But I shall not go into that here. There is a degree of obfuscation regarding the word Jihad, because Muslims wish to portray Islam as a peaceful religion and "offensive Jihad" does not put them in a good light, hence they have every reason to smother the offensive aspects of Jihad. But here I again quote for the Qur'an and it only sends one message to me:

    Qur'an:2:216   "Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not." [Another translation reads:] "Warfare is ordained for you."

    Qur'an:4:95   "Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no injurious hurt, and those who strive hard, fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a rank higher to those who strive hard, fighting Jihad with their wealth and bodies to those who sit (at home). Unto each has Allah promised good, but He prefers Jihadists who strive hard and fight above those who sit home. He has distinguished his fighters with a huge reward."

    To me, there is no ambiguity in those Qur'anic passages. But to try to deny it or to give it a different interpretation is senseless. It says what it means and there are hundreds of other verses in the Qur'an to support that perception. By referring to it, I do not mean to cast any aspersions on any one nor deny that there may be many nominal Muslims who WILL not adhere to such a command of Allah. I also have the conception that most all ex-Muslims will not accept such commands and that is why they are ex-Muslims. I also assume that I am among a majority of ex-Muslims here? or am I mistaken?
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #56 - November 06, 2008, 09:53 PM
    Ok, lemme tell you this. I was a salafi, a strict orthodox orthoprax muslim, and my sect did not believe the offensive jihad was applicable in the conditions of today's world. Happy? Look it up. spubs.com, salafitalk.net
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #57 - November 06, 2008, 09:59 PM
    awais, I thought that this was a discussion group. No one forces any one else to change their views. That is the whole crux of FAITH. Faith does not need proof. Either you believe or you don't, that is Faith. I am only expressing my views and my interpretation of Islam as I see it. If you see it differently that is your privilege. So do not get upset because I see Islam in a different light. Yes, I have known Muslims as personal friends and we have dined in one another's homes and our kids played together. And I have lived in Islamic countries as well. One of our next door neighbours were the nicest of Muslim neighbours anyone could wish to have. Yes I am not speaking from my Ivory tower. But that does not mean I am not allowed to examine a faith that could stimulate some to blow up the Twin Towers in New York, or the underground in London. My son was 150 meters away from that Bus that blew up in London. Of course I have concerns. My Niece and her husband, live in New York, and she could well have been in that Twin Tower for one reason or another. So it is real to me. So I have to understand why? And the only way to understand is to go into the root of the faith that can createssuch devotion to the cause. Do you deny me that privilege to discover for myself?
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #58 - November 06, 2008, 10:09 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 06, 2008, 09:46 PM
    BerberElla, The Ahmadiyya religious sect proclaim they do not believe in "offensive Jihad" but will accept "defensive Jihad" but most other sects do not make this sought of distinction. But then there could be a long discussion of what constitutes "defensive" and what "offensive" means. But I shall not go into that here. There is a degree of obfuscation regarding the word Jihad, because Muslims wish to portray Islam as a peaceful religion and "offensive Jihad" does not put them in a good light, hence they have every reason to smother the offensive aspects of Jihad. But here I again quote for the Qur'an and it only sends one message to me:

    Qur'an:2:216   "Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not." [Another translation reads:] "Warfare is ordained for you."

    Qur'an:4:95   "Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no injurious hurt, and those who strive hard, fighting Jihad in Allah's Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a rank higher to those who strive hard, fighting Jihad with their wealth and bodies to those who sit (at home). Unto each has Allah promised good, but He prefers Jihadists who strive hard and fight above those who sit home. He has distinguished his fighters with a huge reward."

    To me, there is no ambiguity in those Qur'anic passages. But to try to deny it or to give it a different interpretation is senseless. It says what it means and there are hundreds of other verses in the Qur'an to support that perception. By referring to it, I do not mean to cast any aspersions on any one nor deny that there may be many nominal Muslims who WILL not adhere to such a command of Allah. I also have the conception that most all ex-Muslims will not accept such commands and that is why they are ex-Muslims. I also assume that I am among a majority of ex-Muslims here? or am I mistaken?


    I didn't say defensive Jihad, I said it would take a khalifah to order an offensive Jihad. 

    Did you read anything I wrote or are you just determined to prove a point even if that point could use some refining?
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: A New member named elle
     Reply #59 - November 06, 2008, 10:16 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 06, 2008, 08:35 PM
    Gonzo, no I am not accusing you of anything. All I am saying is that Jihad, as stressed in the Holy Qur'an is an essential part and parcel of Islam. And that every Muslim knows his duties to Islam are to promote Islam and Jihad is the main route of promoting Islam. Is that not right?

    Hi Elle. I think you need to take a few deep breaths here. Don't take contradiction personally. Nobody has it in for you, but if you ask people their opinions you are likely to hear them. You seem to have this idea that an entity called "Islam" exists, an entity much like the Borg from Star Trek. It isn't like that at all. The reality is much more complicated.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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