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 Topic: How well do you know Islam?

 (Read 24789 times)
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  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #120 - November 12, 2008, 03:54 PM
    Quote from: awais.x on November 12, 2008, 03:52 PM
    heh, a kaafir takfiri Smiley


    Lol.  Tongue
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #121 - November 12, 2008, 03:56 PM
    Elle,
    it is really simple. Those ppl who say they are muslims are muslims. And many of Muslims just pick up Salat, Ibadah, Dhikr, Zakat, sadqa etc. from their faith leaving behind the not to so good dark side. THose are moderates.

    What all these words mean? Go and search them, may be you will find some good things abt Islam.
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #122 - November 12, 2008, 04:09 PM

    Quote
    Not quite, a moderate muslim is one who follows islamic ideology in moderation, as opposed to an fundamentalist or extremist who strictly adheres to islamic principles.  The only part that PCism plays in this is that it promotes the idea that Islam in moderation is a desirable compromise.  Moderation is prefered to extremism in any form, even that which is extremely good is condemned as extreme, with evil in moderation being preferred.

    Regards,
    Gonzo


    So you are saying a Muslim may cherry pick what he likes and leave out what he doesn't like? And thus a Moderate can lead a moderate life in kafir countries? How many verses of the Qur'an can he leave out and still be considered a Muslim? One? 1,000? Because I was told that the Qur'an was the total word of Allah. And that to deny any of his commands is to deny the Word of Allah?
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #123 - November 12, 2008, 04:17 PM
    Elle, nothing is true, everything is permissable.

    One who identifies himself as a muslim, is a muslim in my eyes.
    Maybe not so in the eyes of the orthodoxy, of which it seems you wish to see with.
    It doesn't really matter to us what the strict Sharia understanding of who is and who isn't a muslim. If you want that perspective, why don't you talk to muslims who have it?
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #124 - November 12, 2008, 04:19 PM
    Elle,
    Moderate Muslims don't specifically go and make claims that 'I deny following 29 verses of Quran'. They do believe Quran is immutable word of God. Most of them just follow the good commands. Otherwise they have got apologetic reasons like:

    'There is no Calioh at the moment, so Jihad can not be waged'
    'How can we compare suicide bombers to the time of Sahabis?'
    'In earlier Arabia girls matured fast, now a days we should let child remain a child'

    Plus, this is not a just Muslim phenomena at all. Not many Christians think that the earth is 6000yrs old, few still do. Not many Hindus will give different utensils to lower caste person he is guest at their place, few do. For all such ppl their religion is a moral support to teach them good things and a way of establishing connection with God. All these are moderates.
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #125 - November 12, 2008, 04:22 PM
    Plus, there are
    Compulsary things: Wajib
    Duties: Fard
    the way prophet do it: Sunnah
    Things which are allowed: Halal

    So Most muslims try to follow Wajibs and avoid Haram. They really don't need to act upon each and every word of Qr'an.  And they still remain Muslims.
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #126 - November 12, 2008, 04:27 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 04:09 PM

    Quote
    Not quite, a moderate muslim is one who follows islamic ideology in moderation, as opposed to an fundamentalist or extremist who strictly adheres to islamic principles.  The only part that PCism plays in this is that it promotes the idea that Islam in moderation is a desirable compromise.  Moderation is prefered to extremism in any form, even that which is extremely good is condemned as extreme, with evil in moderation being preferred.

    Regards,
    Gonzo


    So you are saying a Muslim may cherry pick what he likes and leave out what he doesn't like? And thus a Moderate can lead a moderate life in kafir countries? How many verses of the Qur'an can he leave out and still be considered a Muslim? One? 1,000? Because I was told that the Qur'an was the total word of Allah. And that to deny any of his commands is to deny the Word of Allah?


    A believing Muslim could cherry pick and follow the aspects of Islam that suit him (to a certain degree) and still be considered a Muslim - he just would not be considered a particularly pious Muslim.  Breaking the rules is not the same thing as denying the rules.  A sinning believer is still considered a believer; don't forget that most of Shariah law applies to Muslims, as opposed to apostates and kaffir.

    Regards,
    Gonzo
    "The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. Whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles" - Ayn Rand
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #127 - November 12, 2008, 04:43 PM
    Quote from: gonzo on November 12, 2008, 04:27 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 04:09 PM

    Quote
    Not quite, a moderate muslim is one who follows islamic ideology in moderation, as opposed to an fundamentalist or extremist who strictly adheres to islamic principles.  The only part that PCism plays in this is that it promotes the idea that Islam in moderation is a desirable compromise.  Moderation is prefered to extremism in any form, even that which is extremely good is condemned as extreme, with evil in moderation being preferred.

    Regards,
    Gonzo


    So you are saying a Muslim may cherry pick what he likes and leave out what he doesn't like? And thus a Moderate can lead a moderate life in kafir countries? How many verses of the Qur'an can he leave out and still be considered a Muslim? One? 1,000? Because I was told that the Qur'an was the total word of Allah. And that to deny any of his commands is to deny the Word of Allah?


    A believing Muslim could cherry pick and follow the aspects of Islam that suit him (to a certain degree) and still be considered a Muslim - he just would not be considered a particularly pious Muslim.  Breaking the rules is not the same thing as denying the rules.  A sinning believer is still considered a believer; don't forget that most of Shariah law applies to Muslims, as opposed to apostates and kaffir.

    Regards,
    Gonzo


    Spot on, Gonzo!

    Also, many Muslims privately hold views, that would be considered heretical, (i.e.  "it doesn't matter what you believe, so long as you're a good person etc..." But these views are only shared within family, friends. They won't speak about them publicly (esp if Sheikhs and Imams and Muslims they don't know are present). They also don't want to go on record with these 'private' views.

  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #128 - November 12, 2008, 05:00 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 04:09 PM

    So you are saying a Muslim may cherry pick what he likes and leave out what he doesn't like? And thus a Moderate can lead a moderate life in kafir countries? How many verses of the Qur'an can he leave out and still be considered a Muslim? One? 1,000? Because I was told that the Qur'an was the total word of Allah. And that to deny any of his commands is to deny the Word of Allah?


    And what are you really trying to say Ellie? Because you keep being told more or less the same thing her, and yet return again and again to these ridiculous snippets of 'info' you've picked up. I know you're saying 'I'm just trying to learn about Islam', thing is, I don't believe you.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #129 - November 12, 2008, 05:03 PM
    I guess he is trying to say all the peaceful kind muslims out there are apostates as they deny violent parts of Quran. Those who support violent acts are the only Muslims and True Muslims. Because after all Islam is about killing Kafirs wherever ye find them.

    Did I get it correct Elle?
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #130 - November 12, 2008, 05:12 PM
    learn2bcalm, is that what it says in the Qur'an?   Cheesy
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #131 - November 12, 2008, 05:15 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 05:12 PM
    learn2bcalm, is that what it says in the Qur'an?   Cheesy


     Roll Eyes
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #132 - November 12, 2008, 05:15 PM
    Quote from: learn2bcalm on November 12, 2008, 05:03 PM
    I guess he is trying to say all the peaceful kind muslims out there are apostates as they deny violent parts of Quran. Those who support violent acts are the only Muslims and True Muslims. Because after all Islam is about killing Kafirs wherever ye find them.

    Did I get it correct Elle?

     Afro



    Ha Ha.
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #133 - November 12, 2008, 05:16 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 05:12 PM
    learn2bcalm, is that what it says in the Qur'an?   Cheesy


    You are very conviniently ignoring the verses I posted about good treatments of Kafir.
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #134 - November 12, 2008, 05:22 PM
    Quote
    Thank you BerberElla, you have just confirmed my perception that A Muslim is a Muslim, and that "The Moderate Muslim" is only a PC term used by Kafirs for all Muslims and the the "Moderate Muslim" does not exist unless he is an ex-Muslim?


    Funny how you only pay attention to things that confirm your pre-existing perceptions.
    Yeah,  the moderate muslim does not exist, and the only good injun is a dead injun right ?     bullshit
    Life is a sexually transmitted disease which is invariably fatal.
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #135 - November 12, 2008, 07:24 PM
    Iris, By the technical descriptions in the Qur'an and how people live their lives, yes, that is the conclusion I have arrived at. What is yours?
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #136 - November 12, 2008, 07:45 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 07:24 PM
    By the technical descriptions in the Qur'an and how people live their lives, yes, that is the conclusion I have arrived at.




    Great, so what now Captain? How may I serve? Smiley
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #137 - November 12, 2008, 08:07 PM
    JackTorrance, are you interested in an exchange of ideas or would you rather exchange sarcasms?
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #138 - November 12, 2008, 08:08 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 08:07 PM
    JackTorrance, are you interested in an exchange of ideas or would you rather exchange sarcasms?


    Ideas! Fire away, what do we do?
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #139 - November 12, 2008, 08:08 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 07:24 PM
    Iris, By the technical descriptions in the Qur'an and how people live their lives, yes, that is the conclusion I have arrived at. What is yours?


    How people live their lives?

    Do you mean how Muslims live their lives?

    How many Muslims lives have you experience of?

    Many ex-Muslims here have told you that your perceptions are wrong - as they are speaking from experience - don't you think it's time you accepted your perceptions of Muslims are mistaken?
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #140 - November 12, 2008, 08:10 PM
    Well tell what you think about ex-Muslims and what should their role be in this new age?
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #141 - November 12, 2008, 08:14 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 08:10 PM
    Well tell what you think about ex-Muslims and what should their role be in this new age?


    Shouldn't it be the same as it is in any age, to get on with living their lives - same as everybody else?

    "The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. Whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles" - Ayn Rand
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #142 - November 12, 2008, 08:19 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 08:10 PM
    Well tell what you think about ex-Muslims and what should their role be in this new age?


    Not really sure what you are getting at, but Ex-Muslims are just like any other group of people - in the sense of you have the same spectrum of character types, levels of understanding, etc... as you find anywhere.

    I don't see them as having any special role? And what new age are you talking about?
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #143 - November 12, 2008, 08:36 PM
    The new age I refer to is the 21 century. Prior to this period I could never have dreamed of any Public organisation such as "Council of ex-Muslims" to be on the internet and not hounded out of existence because orthodox Muslims would be unhappy with such organisations, possibly seeing it as a threat to Islam.

    The role of ex-Muslims? What are the aims of this Council of ex-Muslims? Is it just a platform to exchange views? To encourage one another to live within this multicultural society? To allow other people to know that there are organisations such as this where they can exchange ideas, and to allow others to gain the courage to have freedom of choice? Or to share experiences? Each time you write your views, you could be influencing someone else to make a choice of staying as a Muslim or to find a way out of Islam.

    That is what I mean as a role.
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #144 - November 12, 2008, 08:41 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 08:36 PM
    a platform to exchange views? To encourage one another to live within this multicultural society? To allow other people to know that there are organisations such as this where they can exchange ideas, and to allow others to gain the courage to have freedom of choice? Or to share experiences?


    All of those sound fine to me.
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #145 - November 12, 2008, 09:05 PM
    No, I was not going to try to start a revolution.
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #146 - November 12, 2008, 09:22 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 12, 2008, 02:06 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on November 12, 2008, 08:05 AM
    I should note at this stage though that in my 28yrs of being a muslim I met more muslims who's views made me feel sick than I did muslims that I actually liked.

    They may have been normal on the outside but inside they were seething masses of hate towards this country and the kaffirs in it.  I know many a muslim who supported the bombings, the planes in the twin towers, I sat in a room where people were throwing a party to celebrate the death of 3000 souls, and rewinding parts so they could laugh at people who were opting to jump from the windows of the twin towers.

    It's a tough one because my experience with muslims was not a nice one and I met less than a handful of muslims with the guts to say "that was barbaric".

    So on the one hand we have yours and hassans nice experiences with muslims, and my not so nice ones.

    In all of that a balance must be found to the truth of the matter.




    Thank you BerberElla, you have just confirmed my perception that A Muslim is a Muslim, and that "The Moderate Muslim" is only a PC term used by Kafirs for all Muslims and the the "Moderate Muslim" does not exist unless he is an ex-Muslim?

    Oh FFS, Elle. Get a bloody grip, will you?
    You have totally ignored posts by other people that explain that they know plenty of nice, moderate Muslims and you have totally ignored BerberElla's acknowledgment of their experiences which differ from hers and you have totally ignored her statement that, and I quote, " a balance must be found to the truth of the matter".

    Stop being so bloody robotic and parroting your pet preconceptions. You claim to learn things here and then you come out with this rubbish. Go watch the Monty Python video I posted in the Lounge. Tongue
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #147 - November 12, 2008, 11:31 PM
    Elle you keep asking the same question "is that what it says in the Quran?"

    Have you read the Quran? If so, why do you keep asking that question?
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #148 - November 15, 2008, 02:39 PM
    HB: Knowing the rituals does not constitute understanding islam. Executing the rituals, does not equate understanding of islam. For a non-arab to know how to state some Arabic words like "Insha-alla or Masha-alla or iman or kufr or fiqh or sunna or hudud or hamadnak" that does not constitute understanding of islam.

    Elle: Yes you can be a muslim without following the koran. Yes you can be a muslim without understanding islam. Yes you can be a muslim while ignoring islamic rules. Sit back and deal with this concept as you are not doing anyone a favor.

    People like you holding this wide brush that are making it very hard for me to discuss islam on an intellectual level with western soon-to-be-dhimmis. Those dhimmis listen to you painting everything with this wide brush and think to themselves, holy crap, the muslims have lunatics coming after them. And they will oppose you and ban you just to spite you. But worse for me, they will become super-defensive.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: How well do you know Islam?
     Reply #149 - November 15, 2008, 04:23 PM
    Quote from: Baal on November 15, 2008, 02:39 PM
    HB: Knowing the rituals does not constitute understanding islam. Executing the rituals, does not equate understanding of islam. For a non-arab to know how to state some Arabic words like "Insha-alla or Masha-alla or iman or kufr or fiqh or sunna or hudud or hamadnak" that does not constitute understanding of islam.

    Elle: Yes you can be a muslim without following the koran. Yes you can be a muslim without understanding islam. Yes you can be a muslim while ignoring islamic rules. Sit back and deal with this concept as you are not doing anyone a favor.

    People like you holding this wide brush that are making it very hard for me to discuss islam on an intellectual level with western soon-to-be-dhimmis. Those dhimmis listen to you painting everything with this wide brush and think to themselves, holy crap, the muslims have lunatics coming after them. And they will oppose you and ban you just to spite you. But worse for me, they will become super-defensive.




    Using the Arabic words like Inshallah or Mashallah even when you're not Arabic doesn't mean you don't understand the words. People can be multi-lingual you know. Even if you aren't multi-lingual, I'm sure you will know what it means if someone comes up to you and says "Hola" or "Bonjour".

    Mashallah and Inshallah are common words used in Islam.

    I'm not saying it constitutes understanding Islam, I'm saying that I know people who follow Islam inside out. They practice it by the book, so to speak.

    There are Muslims who don't follow the Quran sunnah to sunnah, of course. But there are those who do follow it rule to rule.

    You say executing the rules does not constitute understanding Islam, so then what does? What does one have to do/say to prove that they do actually understand the religion??
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