Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
Today at 08:44 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
Today at 04:40 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
Today at 12:50 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
Today at 04:17 AM

What's happened to the fo...
by zeca
Yesterday at 06:39 PM

New Britain
Yesterday at 05:41 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
Yesterday at 05:47 AM

Iran launches drones
April 13, 2024, 09:56 PM

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
April 12, 2024, 04:01 PM

Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
April 12, 2024, 12:06 PM

Mock Them and Move on., ...
January 30, 2024, 10:44 AM

Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...
January 29, 2024, 01:53 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Attitudes towards Islam

 (Read 20688 times)
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #30 - November 03, 2008, 07:46 PM

    Re: Israel/Palestine: Three things I realized over many years that changed my view on israel: First how small israel is compared to the rest of the islamic world. Second that jews got exterminated in the middle east. Third that everyone israel went to war against was a jackass that was harming his people and the effects of that harm can still be felt today after decades.



    This is an interesting point. The jews have most certainly been on the recieving end of some quite horrendous abuse over the millenia, but that does not excuse the wholesale theft of somebody elses land. The palestinians who fled in terror in 1947 weren't responsible for the abuse of the jews - but they still paid the price for it.

    Meh. Politics eh? - why cant we all just get along.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #31 - November 03, 2008, 07:50 PM



    Meh. Politics eh? - why cant we all just get along.


    Kumbaya anyone?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #32 - November 03, 2008, 08:01 PM



    Meh. Politics eh? - why cant we all just get along.


    Kumbaya anyone? (Clicky for piccy!)


    No.  I'd rather fight. Shooter

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #33 - November 03, 2008, 08:03 PM



    This is an interesting point. The jews have most certainly been on the recieving end of some quite horrendous abuse over the millenia, but that does not excuse the wholesale theft of somebody elses land. The palestinians who fled in terror in 1947 weren't responsible for the abuse of the jews - but they still paid the price for it.



    Totally. But watch out, there are some one here that don't like those that sympathise with the palestinians.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #34 - November 03, 2008, 08:04 PM




    Totally. But watch out, there are some one here that don't like those that sympathise with the palestinians.


    But they also need to watch out because there are some here that do. aloofandbored0

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #35 - November 03, 2008, 08:13 PM




    Totally. But watch out, there are some one here that don't like those that sympathise with the palestinians.


    But they also need to watch out because there are some here that do. aloofandbored0



    True Afro

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #36 - November 03, 2008, 09:12 PM

    Re: Israel/Palestine: Three things I realized over many years that changed my view on israel: First how small israel is compared to the rest of the islamic world. Second that jews got exterminated in the middle east. Third that everyone israel went to war against was a jackass that was harming his people and the effects of that harm can still be felt today after decades.



    This is an interesting point. The jews have most certainly been on the recieving end of some quite horrendous abuse over the millenia, but that does not excuse the wholesale theft of somebody elses land. The palestinians who fled in terror in 1947 weren't responsible for the abuse of the jews - but they still paid the price for it.

    Meh. Politics eh? - why cant we all just get along.

    They were not responsible?

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #37 - November 03, 2008, 09:40 PM

    Oh here we go! Roll Eyes

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #38 - November 03, 2008, 09:42 PM

    Should be fun. If anyone wants to actually discuss  it that's fine. Otherwise it'll get split off to the Rant Arena.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #39 - November 07, 2008, 01:26 AM

    Re: Israel/Palestine: Three things I realized over many years that changed my view on israel: First how small israel is compared to the rest of the islamic world. Second that jews got exterminated in the middle east. Third that everyone israel went to war against was a jackass that was harming his people and the effects of that harm can still be felt today after decades.



    This is an interesting point. The jews have most certainly been on the recieving end of some quite horrendous abuse over the millenia, but that does not excuse the wholesale theft of somebody elses land. The palestinians who fled in terror in 1947 weren't responsible for the abuse of the jews - but they still paid the price for it.

    Meh. Politics eh? - why cant we all just get along.

    They were not responsible?



    Hello Bal,

    When I mentioned "abuse of the Jews" I was referring to the terror inflicted upon them by Nazi germany. Years of right-wing propoganda and jew-baiting led to a mass jewish migration to the Levant region, a war for independence and finally, the displacement of the Palestinain peoples. The ethnic arabs of the region suffered for the crimes committed by their nordic overlords.

    Regarding your other point; Yes, Israel is small compared to the Muslim world. It is also small compared to the Budhist world, the Hindu world and the christian world. That is no justification for the theft of other peoples land. A theft whose legitimacy is based on an ancesteral claim dating back over 2000 years - ancesteral claims which, in and of themselves, are flimsy at best.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #40 - November 07, 2008, 05:26 AM

    That's an oversimplification of the situation in Israel.  It's a two sided issue in which, at least from a third party's perception, both side's acted in at least something of an understandable, and justified way.

    It simply wasn't all right done by one side, and all wrong by the other.

    (man I feel like such a fence sitter)
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #41 - November 07, 2008, 08:54 AM

    I think that's a fair assessment. It's easy to say the Jews shouldn't have migrated to Israel en masse but look at it from their point of view.

    They had (largely) been living in Europe in what were supposed to be some of the world's most cultured, advanced and tolerant countries. It didn't do them a damned bit of good. After that they weren't going to trust any son of a bitch and figured if they were going to have their backs to the wall they'd fight for a homeland they believed in.

    Although I don't believe in their religion they do actually have a strong ancestral claim to the area. Now I realise that you are a devout Muslim, Hassan1, but to be perfectly honest when your beliefs crash up against archaeological facts then your beliefs come off second best. You may or may not be able to admit that Judaism really does predate Islam. I realise that according to Islamic doctrine Islam is the original religion but all the evidence in the world contradicts Islamic doctrine. It also contradicts a literal reading of the OT/Torah so don't feel too bad about it.

    Fact is that modern day Israel, and in particular Jerusalem, was Jewish long before it was Islamic. Jerusalem was never an Islamic holy site until Mohammed declared it so. Any story that says otherwise is just that: a story.

    Then you have the fact that during WW 2 the grand mufti of Jerusalem was an active and willing supporter of the Nazis. This is hardly going to make the Jews feel more moderate after the war. Their feeling was that they needed a place of their own and they were, in effect, still fighting the Nazis (or at least the people who had been willing allies of the Nazis).

    Now yes, a lot of innocent people have copped a lot of shit as a result of all this and that is very unfortunate. I have a lot of sympathy for the average Palestinian, if such a person exists. I don't want to see anyone or their kids getting shot, starved or blown up. I also understand the position of the Israelis. It's not a simple problem.

    ETA: I'll add that IMO a lot of the opposition to Israel is because they aren't losing. If they were the underdogs people would be more sympathetic. They're determined never to be the underdogs again.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #42 - November 07, 2008, 09:32 AM

    Re: Israel/Palestine: Three things I realized over many years that changed my view on israel: First how small israel is compared to the rest of the islamic world. Second that jews got exterminated in the middle east. Third that everyone israel went to war against was a jackass that was harming his people and the effects of that harm can still be felt today after decades.



    This is an interesting point. The jews have most certainly been on the recieving end of some quite horrendous abuse over the millenia, but that does not excuse the wholesale theft of somebody elses land. The palestinians who fled in terror in 1947 weren't responsible for the abuse of the jews - but they still paid the price for it.

    Meh. Politics eh? - why cant we all just get along.

    They were not responsible?



    Hello Bal,

    When I mentioned "abuse of the Jews" I was referring to the terror inflicted upon them by Nazi germany. Years of right-wing propoganda and jew-baiting led to a mass jewish migration to the Levant region, a war for independence and finally, the displacement of the Palestinain peoples. The ethnic arabs of the region suffered for the crimes committed by their nordic overlords.

    Regarding your other point; Yes, Israel is small compared to the Muslim world. It is also small compared to the Budhist world, the Hindu world and the christian world. That is no justification for the theft of other peoples land. A theft whose legitimacy is based on an ancesteral claim dating back over 2000 years - ancesteral claims which, in and of themselves, are flimsy at best.

    I was referring to the abuse and total and succesful genocide of the jews in the very very very large islamic landscape. Now you want the jews to submit to an islamic rule in israel/palestine as well. Also why do you keep referring to it as stolen land? Isn't the term stolen land something that you should only use with other muslims? why are you using that term with me here?

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #43 - November 07, 2008, 09:03 PM

    I think that's a fair assessment. It's easy to say the Jews shouldn't have migrated to Israel en masse but look at it from their point of view.

    They had (largely) been living in Europe in what were supposed to be some of the world's most cultured, advanced and tolerant countries. It didn't do them a damned bit of good. After that they weren't going to trust any son of a bitch and figured if they were going to have their backs to the wall they'd fight for a homeland they believed in.


    Osmanthus,

    The right for a homeland is interesting. I think people have a right to a homeland - but to artifically carve a homeland out of somebody elses just isn't kosher. (zing).

    Quote
    Although I don't believe in their religion they do actually have a strong ancestral claim to the area.

     

    When does an ancestral claim cease to be an ancestral claim? What about the cananites who were there before them? Can their acnestors claim rights over the land? That aside, many anthropolgists believe that the bulk of Israeli jews actually come from the "Khazar" area of central russia - a region which experienced mass Jewish conversion in the 9th Century following the adoption of juadism as the state religion. So the ancestral claim may not be as air-tight as many Israelis like to think.

    Quote
    Now I realise that you are a devout Muslim, Hassan1, but to be perfectly honest when your beliefs crash up against archaeological facts then your beliefs come off second best. You may or may not be able to admit that Judaism really does predate Islam. I realise that according to Islamic doctrine Islam is the original religion but all the evidence in the world contradicts Islamic doctrine. It also contradicts a literal reading of the OT/Torah so don't feel too bad about it.

     

    Not sure of the above's relevance in this topic. Nonetheless, Muslims accept Judaism and Christianity as religions that predate islam. However, the belief is that these religions as they were practised then, are more closely mirrored by modern-day islam - not modern day xtianity or judaism.

    Quote
    Fact is that modern day Israel, and in particular Jerusalem, was Jewish long before it was Islamic. Jerusalem was never an Islamic holy site until Mohammed declared it so. Any story that says otherwise is just that: a story.

     

    It was also Roman, Byzantine, Bablonian, Christian etc. As far as I am aware (somebody may want to correct me on this) established jewish presence/reign in the holy land accounts for a period of 100years over the past 2000. The Palestinians who were in possession of the land pre 1947, have been there for well over a millenium.

    Quote
    Then you have the fact that during WW 2 the grand mufti of Jerusalem was an active and willing supporter of the Nazis. This is hardly going to make the Jews feel more moderate after the war. Their feeling was that they needed a place of their own and they were, in effect, still fighting the Nazis (or at least the people who had been willing allies of the Nazis).

     

    That changes nothing. The singular views of a single Mufti shouldnt result in punishment for the people he "represents". Furthermore, the backdrop to his support for the Nazis was continued encroachment on Palestinian land by various Zionist terror oragnisations - involved in a program of ethnic cleansing in the holy land.

    Quote
    Now yes, a lot of innocent people have copped a lot of shit as a result of all this and that is very unfortunate. I have a lot of sympathy for the average Palestinian, if such a person exists. I don't want to see anyone or their kids getting shot, starved or blown up. I also understand the position of the Israelis. It's not a simple problem.


    Indeed. It is now a very complex problem. We have a generation of Israeli Jews who have grown up in Israel and consider it their home. They now have a right to live there. But so do the palestinians. Unrestricted jewish migration to israel is still encouraged - If I am a jew in England, I have more right to live in Haifa than a palestinian whos father was born there. That doesnt seem right to me. And i'm sure it doesnt seem right to you either.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #44 - November 07, 2008, 10:45 PM

    I think that's a fair assessment. It's easy to say the Jews shouldn't have migrated to Israel en masse but look at it from their point of view.

    Let me add a little something to your introduction: "The Arabs also should not have migrated en masse to Palestine."

    How did a country that was mostly Paletinian Christians (like me) and jews, today has a majority muslim population, and worse, now the Arabs who live in it, most do not even have a Palestinian accent.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #45 - November 07, 2008, 10:59 PM

    Quote from: Hassan1
    When does an ancestral claim cease to be an ancestral claim? What about the cananites who were there before them? Can their acnestors claim rights over the land? That aside, many anthropolgists believe that the bulk of Israeli jews actually come from the "Khazar" area of central russia - a region which experienced mass Jewish conversion in the 9th Century following the adoption of juadism as the state religion. So the ancestral claim may not be as air-tight as many Israelis like to think.

    The Khazar theory is controversial, unscientific, and has been exploited by anti-Semitic circles in the past. If you are repeating it here innocently, I suggest you read more about this topic from less subjective resources, i.e. non-Islamic material. Nor is there any real, scientific anthropological consensus that the majority of Israelis have Khazar ancestry. You are simply wrong.

    The questions you have raised can be used to "refute" the legitimacy of any nation-state. There are no contemporary groups who claim to be the descendants of Canaanites, just like there are no contemporary groups who claim descent from the Etruscans. The closest example I can think of are the Samaritans, who still live in their lands unscathed.
     
    At any rate, Jewish identity is much closely entwined to history/culture than ethnicity. Converts are fully accepted as Jews, so whether European Jews have distant Khazar or distant Hebrew ancestry is quite irrelevant. How many French citizens today have Frank blood, to begin with?

    Quote from: Hassan1
    It was also Roman, Byzantine, Bablonian, Christian etc. As far as I am aware (somebody may want to correct me on this) established jewish presence/reign in the holy land accounts for a period of 100years over the past 2000. The Palestinians who were in possession of the land pre 1947, have been there for well over a millenium.

    Wrong information again, Jews probably rose as a subculture in the greater whole of Canaan. Forget about the Exodus, the Egyptian slavery, etc. There has been a continuous Jewish presence in Israel for 2500+ years, despite great oscillations in population figures, including two great plummets, i.e. genocides carried out by Roman legions. Even when Arabs conquered Israel for the first time in 7th century, the majority of the population was Jewish. It is an interesting idea that any Palestinians who happen to live in Israel today were the colonists of an earlier epoch. I will not even mention the great importance of Israel in Jewish thought and tradition, secular or otherwise. Jewish identity is half-crippled without access to Jerusalem.

    Quote from: Hassan1
    That changes nothing. The singular views of a single Mufti shouldnt result in punishment for the people he "represents". Furthermore, the backdrop to his support for the Nazis was continued encroachment on Palestinian land by various Zionist terror oragnisations - involved in a program of ethnic cleansing in the holy land.

    Nazi-Palestinian collaboration was, of course, much more complex than the singular views of a single Mufti, as you put it. I strongly agree that the collective punishment of any community or group is inherently immoral, but Palestinians have also carried out similar deeds when they had the opportunity.

    Quote from: Hassan1
    It was also Roman, Byzantine, Bablonian, Christian etc.

    The Roman Empire tried to subjugate Israel and was partially successful. Later when the Judaeans revolted, they carried out genocidal campaigns. Their attempts at colonisation were all failures. Byzantinians governed the region, but never entered the gene pool, so to speak. The Babylonian Empire governed the region for a short period, and there were no Babylonian settlements in the area. In other words, Jews were the only significant, persistent, and long-lasting ethnic/religious group to inhabit the region which roughly corresponds to the frontiers of the State of Israel today.

    Quote from: Hassan1
    They now have a right to live there. But so do the palestinians.

    Yes.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #46 - November 07, 2008, 11:52 PM

    Osmanthus,

    The right for a homeland is interesting. I think people have a right to a homeland - but to artifically carve a homeland out of somebody elses just isn't kosher. (zing).

    Did they do this? Really? I'm not at all sure they did.

    Quote
    Not sure of the above's relevance in this topic. Nonetheless, Muslims accept Judaism and Christianity as religions that predate islam. However, the belief is that these religions as they were practised then, are more closely mirrored by modern-day islam - not modern day xtianity or judaism.

    Which is purely a self-serving Islamic assertion that is contradicted by all the available evidence.

    Quote
    It was also Roman, Byzantine, Bablonian, Christian etc. As far as I am aware (somebody may want to correct me on this) established jewish presence/reign in the holy land accounts for a period of 100years over the past 2000. The Palestinians who were in possession of the land pre 1947, have been there for well over a millenium.

    What about the Jews who were there? They are the original people of Judaea/Judah. They never conquered the place form the Canaanites at all. They are indigenous.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #47 - November 08, 2008, 08:35 AM

    Re: Israel/Palestine: Three things I realized over many years that changed my view on israel: First how small israel is compared to the rest of the islamic world. Second that jews got exterminated in the middle east. Third that everyone israel went to war against was a jackass that was harming his people and the effects of that harm can still be felt today after decades.



    This is an interesting point. The jews have most certainly been on the recieving end of some quite horrendous abuse over the millenia, but that does not excuse the wholesale theft of somebody elses land. The palestinians who fled in terror in 1947 weren't responsible for the abuse of the jews - but they still paid the price for it.

    Meh. Politics eh? - why cant we all just get along.

    They were not responsible?



    Hello Bal,

    When I mentioned "abuse of the Jews" I was referring to the terror inflicted upon them by Nazi germany. Years of right-wing propoganda and jew-baiting led to a mass jewish migration to the Levant region, a war for independence and finally, the displacement of the Palestinain peoples. The ethnic arabs of the region suffered for the crimes committed by their nordic overlords.

    Regarding your other point; Yes, Israel is small compared to the Muslim world. It is also small compared to the Budhist world, the Hindu world and the christian world. That is no justification for the theft of other peoples land. A theft whose legitimacy is based on an ancesteral claim dating back over 2000 years - ancesteral claims which, in and of themselves, are flimsy at best.

    I was referring to the abuse and total and succesful genocide of the jews in the very very very large islamic landscape.



    Right, the slowest, least efficient and badly managed genocide in the history of mankind.

    1350 years after Islam there were sizeable jewish minorities in the middle east, turkey, Central Asia etc.  in fact jews  escaped europe and actually found shelter in evil North Africa.

    Dont expect everyone to be ignorant of history baal, this isnt FFI

    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #48 - November 08, 2008, 08:48 AM

    Don't dignify his b/s by replying to it. All of a sudden Baal is Palestinian, whaddya know? It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #49 - November 09, 2008, 08:29 AM

    Re: Israel/Palestine: Three things I realized over many years that changed my view on israel: First how small israel is compared to the rest of the islamic world. Second that jews got exterminated in the middle east. Third that everyone israel went to war against was a jackass that was harming his people and the effects of that harm can still be felt today after decades.



    This is an interesting point. The jews have most certainly been on the recieving end of some quite horrendous abuse over the millenia, but that does not excuse the wholesale theft of somebody elses land. The palestinians who fled in terror in 1947 weren't responsible for the abuse of the jews - but they still paid the price for it.

    Meh. Politics eh? - why cant we all just get along.

    They were not responsible?



    Hello Bal,

    When I mentioned "abuse of the Jews" I was referring to the terror inflicted upon them by Nazi germany. Years of right-wing propoganda and jew-baiting led to a mass jewish migration to the Levant region, a war for independence and finally, the displacement of the Palestinain peoples. The ethnic arabs of the region suffered for the crimes committed by their nordic overlords.

    Regarding your other point; Yes, Israel is small compared to the Muslim world. It is also small compared to the Budhist world, the Hindu world and the christian world. That is no justification for the theft of other peoples land. A theft whose legitimacy is based on an ancesteral claim dating back over 2000 years - ancesteral claims which, in and of themselves, are flimsy at best.

    I was referring to the abuse and total and succesful genocide of the jews in the very very very large islamic landscape.



    Right, the slowest, least efficient and badly managed genocide in the history of mankind.

    1350 years after Islam there were sizeable jewish minorities in the middle east, turkey, Central Asia etc.  in fact jews  escaped europe and actually found shelter in evil North Africa.

    Dont expect everyone to be ignorant of history baal, this isnt FFI

    Dig harder. And Jews lived in Europe for dozens of centuries, If I apply your logic, clearly their genocide in WW2 was a very slow genocide as well.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #50 - November 09, 2008, 08:43 AM

    Genocide implies a deliberate campaign to exterminate. Do you have evidence of such?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #51 - November 12, 2008, 06:26 PM

    The Khazar theory is controversial, unscientific, and has been exploited by anti-Semitic circles in the past. If you are repeating it here innocently, I suggest you read more about this topic from less subjective resources, i.e. non-Islamic material. Nor is there any real, scientific anthropological consensus that the majority of Israelis have Khazar ancestry. You are simply wrong.

    The questions you have raised can be used to "refute" the legitimacy of any nation-state. There are no contemporary groups who claim to be the descendants of Canaanites, just like there are no contemporary groups who claim descent from the Etruscans. The closest example I can think of are the Samaritans, who still live in their lands unscathed.


    To have a position be "exploited by anti-semeitic circles in the past", does not give said position any less credence. That said, I am willing to admit that any in-depth knowledge I have regarding the Khazaar Theory is scant at best. Perhaps you can point me to the direction of ubiased scholarly work that debunks the theory. And by unbiased, I mean work written by completley unpartisan athropologists/historians (if such a breed exist!)
     
    Quote
    At any rate, Jewish identity is much closely entwined to history/culture than ethnicity. Converts are fully accepted as Jews, so whether European Jews have distant Khazar or distant Hebrew ancestry is quite irrelevant. How many French citizens today have Frank blood, to begin with?

     

    It is not as irrelevant as you think. One's ancesteral claim to a land - any land - is based on, well, one's acnestory. If the claimant doesnt have said ancestory, than his right of ownership diminishes significantly. If I tomorrow decide to convert to Judaism, do I now have ancesteral right to the land of Judea?


    Quote
    Wrong information again, Jews probably rose as a subculture in the greater whole of Canaan. Forget about the Exodus, the Egyptian slavery, etc. There has been a continuous Jewish presence in Israel for 2500+ years, despite great oscillations in population figures, including two great plummets, i.e. genocides carried out by Roman legions. Even when Arabs conquered Israel for the first time in 7th century, the majority of the population was Jewish.

     

    Perhaps your grasp of history is better than mine, but I was of the opinion that Jewish presence in the holy land was, at the time of Muslim conquest, minimal and predominently Christian? I would assume as much considering the Levant region was controlled by the Byzantines at the time. Is any historical-census/anecdotal evidence to suggest that the region was largley Jewish?

    Quote
    It is an interesting idea that any Palestinians who happen to live in Israel today were the colonists of an earlier epoch. I will not even mention the great importance of Israel in Jewish thought and tradition, secular or otherwise. Jewish identity is half-crippled without access to Jerusalem.


    Although the language of Arabic spread as far as the Levant, it does not neccesarily mean that their ancestors were the original colonisers from Hijaz. It just means that there ancestors adopted arab customs, religion and language. The "arabs" from palestine and Syria look very different from the "arabs" of Saudi Arabia. Perhaps these 2 sets of "arabs" dont have a shared ancestory? Perhaps the "arabs" of the Levant are descendents from that area's original inhabitants.

    Quote
    Nazi-Palestinian collaboration was, of course, much more complex than the singular views of a single Mufti, as you put it. I strongly agree that the collective punishment of any community or group is inherently immoral, but Palestinians have also carried out similar deeds when they had the opportunity.

     

    Elaborate on the complexity por favor?

    Quote
    The Roman Empire tried to subjugate Israel and was partially successful. Later when the Judaeans revolted, they carried out genocidal campaigns. Their attempts at colonisation were all failures. Byzantinians governed the region, but never entered the gene pool, so to speak. The Babylonian Empire governed the region for a short period, and there were no Babylonian settlements in the area. In other words, Jews were the only significant, persistent, and long-lasting ethnic/religious group to inhabit the region which roughly corresponds to the frontiers of the State of Israel today.

     

    Jewish presence was continuous - that I do not doubt. But you are overlooking the Jewish diaspora - and whether jews from elsewhere in the world (who form the majority of Israels present population) have more of a right to be there than Palestinians who lived there 50 years ago. Some of these Jewish communities were well established in an array of lands accross Europe, Asia and Africa - have had numerous "intrusions" into their gene pool. Should they have an automatic right to return based on loose DNA evidence and biblical prophecy?


    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #52 - November 12, 2008, 07:56 PM

    Now that you have left Islam, do you find yourself acting with more hostility against Islam and Muslims?


    No.

    Do you feel pity for your former co-religionists? Angry? Plain indifferent?


    I can't generalise. If they are happy and are good, decent people - then I am happy for them. If they are suffering unnecessarily, then I feel sorry for them.
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #53 - November 12, 2008, 08:08 PM

    Genocide implies a deliberate campaign to exterminate. Do you have evidence of such?


    What other evidence do you need?
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #54 - November 12, 2008, 09:34 PM

    Well any at all would be a start, seeing as Baal provided none in the post I was referring to.

    Hassan1: I'll see what I can find out about that topic. I'm acquainted with some science professionals so they may be able to put me onto some decent (and current) research.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Attitudes towards Islam
     Reply #55 - November 12, 2008, 10:08 PM

    Question 1: How do I view Islaam & Muslims now?

    Answer: I guess you could call it pity.  I feel it is a shame and a waste of so much time, energy and potential.  A few times, I've gone to read some old Islaamic forums, sites and blogs that I used to read and I'm gobsmacked by how clearly stupid it all is.  I don't know how I didn't see it before. The weak logic, the victim mentality [I did realise this one before, but now it is even more clear to me since I no longer have to subscribe to it], the pathetic attempts to justify all sorts of horrors [like the stoning of that girl or woman in Somalia]. 

    I am also angry, especially at women and sort of at convert women in particular. Because the religion is so unfair to women, and when converts choose to become conservartive or orthodox Muslims, they are volunteering for it.  We always used to fight for change and to 'restore the rights that are promised to us' but in truth, Islaam is what it's followers make it, not some half assed medieval ideals. The fact that Muslims can't even live up to those 1000 year old rules today tells me everything I should know about this religion.   lipsrsealed


    Question 2: Do you still identfiy yourselves with "muslim" political causes? For instance, do you find yourself siding with the Palestinains/Chechens/Kashmiris?

    I don't think of the Palestinian issue as a Muslim one per se because there are Christian Arabs who have been caught up in it and very active in the resistance as well.  I view these things as nationalist / humanitarian issues, although I will grant you that Muslims think they have some special ownership to these things, especially Palestine.  My opinions have not changed on any world political issue like Mindinao or Palestine.  I am more concerned about humanitarian aspects of these things like clean drinking water or medicine than I am in the political issues.  That is just  my personality.

    [this space for rent]
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »