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 Topic: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'

 (Read 10378 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     OP - October 28, 2008, 04:31 PM

    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24566712-1702,00.html?from=public_rss

    I'd be interested in member's ideas on how to put a stop to this practice. Human rights and women's groups seemed to have failed.
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #1 - October 28, 2008, 05:01 PM
    Quote from: speaklow on October 28, 2008, 04:31 PM

    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24566712-1702,00.html?from=public_rss

    I'd be interested in member's ideas on how to put a stop to this practice. Human rights and women's groups seemed to have failed.


    More pressure, perhaps? I don't think activists fail completely, only partially. With more activist pressure, such traditions will grow weaker. Unfortunately erasing evil practices takes time and energy --that doesn't just happen spontaneously.
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #2 - October 28, 2008, 09:31 PM
    Yup, it'll take time. I'm not sure how common this is in Indonesia but naturally anyone who accepts the hadith about Aisha is going to have a hard time making an Islamic argument against this sort of thing. Makes it rather difficult to get rid of it in any culture where people are devout Muslims. Religion FTW. Roll Eyes
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #3 - October 29, 2008, 02:52 AM
    Makes me utterly sick.... Cry
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #4 - October 29, 2008, 06:01 AM
    Seems to me yet another case of someone claiming the right to follow religious law and tradition even when it is against the secular laws of state. Such cases should be prsecuted. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #5 - October 29, 2008, 08:56 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on October 28, 2008, 09:31 PM
    Yup, it'll take time. I'm not sure how common this is in Indonesia but naturally anyone who accepts the hadith about Aisha is going to have a hard time making an Islamic argument against this sort of thing. Makes it rather difficult to get rid of it in any culture where people are devout Muslims. Religion FTW. Roll Eyes


    Yup. Muslims shake their heads in disgust when they hear about pedophilia on the news and some kids as 'old' as 13. But bring up Aisha and BANG BANG, you're dead.
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #6 - October 30, 2008, 02:43 PM
    Quote from: Iggy on October 29, 2008, 08:56 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on October 28, 2008, 09:31 PM
    Yup, it'll take time. I'm not sure how common this is in Indonesia but naturally anyone who accepts the hadith about Aisha is going to have a hard time making an Islamic argument against this sort of thing. Makes it rather difficult to get rid of it in any culture where people are devout Muslims. Religion FTW. Roll Eyes


    Yup. Muslims shake their heads in disgust when they hear about pedophilia on the news and some kids as 'old' as 13. But bring up Aisha and BANG BANG, you're dead.


    YAAAA... BUT... the profit MARRIED her, so it´s not paedophilia!  whistling2
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #7 - October 30, 2008, 05:28 PM
    Let's just hope that Mr Wideyanto gets the full force of  Indonesian secular law up his jacksy to draw a line in the sand for all the literalist Islamic nuts who haven't realised that they're in a timewarp yet.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #8 - October 30, 2008, 09:41 PM
    Well the fact that there seems to be some action on this is promising, but in an Islamic country how will they convict him? He'll just play the old "Mohammed is the perfect example for all men to follow" card.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #9 - October 31, 2008, 11:34 AM
    People living in primative conditions will follow primative ways... that is it... nothing more, nothing less.

    Let it be known that I opose this shiznit... now that has been said... legal age to drink in the US is 21, in the rest of the world its younger than that, legal age to get married in Canada is 16 its more in other counties, and less in others.

    Age expectancy varies also, in most of the undeveloped world 50 is ooooooooooooold, in the developed world 30 is the new 20... so as u can see, its all relative... and what is repulsive to us is common in other countries... what do you think of eating bugs? I am sure u can see where I am heading with all of this.
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #10 - October 31, 2008, 11:42 AM
    Quote from: speaklow on October 28, 2008, 04:31 PM

    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24566712-1702,00.html?from=public_rss

    I'd be interested in member's ideas on how to put a stop to this practice. Human rights and women's groups seemed to have failed.



    As long as the government of said country doesn't have an issue with it, I don't see how anything we suggest can change the practise.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #11 - October 31, 2008, 11:57 AM
    Quote from: whatabastor on October 31, 2008, 11:34 AM
    People living in primative conditions will follow primative ways... that is it... nothing more, nothing less.

    Let it be known that I opose this shiznit... now that has been said... legal age to drink in the US is 21, in the rest of the world its younger than that, legal age to get married in Canada is 16 its more in other counties, and less in others.

    Age expectancy varies also, in most of the undeveloped world 50 is ooooooooooooold, in the developed world 30 is the new 20... so as u can see, its all relative... and what is repulsive to us is common in other countries... what do you think of eating bugs? I am sure u can see where I am heading with all of this.


    I can see where you're headed but I don't agree with you.  The law in Indonesia sets the age of consent at higher than 7, so even if you accept the cultural relativism argument, it doesn't apply to something Indonesians themselves have decided is unacceptable.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #12 - October 31, 2008, 12:11 PM
    You'd hardly believe the flak I'm coming in for by merely mentioning this case in a forum ... an atheists' forum for heaven's sake!

    I think I've mentioned here before that I'm coming across an unhealthy situation recently where criticising any religion in any way is fair game in the general atheist community ... except when it comes to Islam. That's off limits.

    If anyone has the time and/or interest, I'd be grateful for your views on the shape this thread is taking at atheiststoday.com (http://atheiststoday.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=37&thread_id=396). As always in forums and elsewhere, I go by my real name, neilmarr (Neil Marr). Most of the folks on the AtheistsToday board (formerly Atheists.com), by the way, are probably ex-Christian, lily-white and brought up, as I was, on Hopalong Cassidy and hamburgers by fathers (and mothers) without beards.

    My point is simply that we must resist religious intrusion and influence in all areas of secular society -- especially governmental, educational and legal -- and that ancient scriptural codes must remain overriden by modern law and social structure. They are quaint, but they are irrelevant and counter to modern ideals of social morality.

    I was well aware when I first started to visit the Council of ex-Muslims forums early on in its career that I wouldn't necessarily find a band of fellow atheists here. Rejection of a particular hard-line faith does not imply rejection of the concept of a deity or even rejection of all facets of religion and religious tradition. I have, though, found that atheism (at least agnosticism) seems the norm among those who are now ex-Muslim in these forums. But whereas I feel free to chuck in my two-pennies' worth here (on those rare occasions when I think I know enough to do so), I feel timid about criticising Islam on more general secular boards.

    Why is that, do you think? Is atheism itself (apologies for convenient herding of cats) now cherry-picking which religions are exposed to open-season critical policy and which are out of bounds? Has it come to knock-seven-colours-out-of-all-religion ... but Islam's a special case and should be afforded uncommon respect?

    I'm an atheist and I am actually anti-religion to boot. I'm an equal opportunities atheist and utterly detest all religions without prejudice. I really don't want to have to go easy on Islam any more than I would want to go easy on Mormons in magic underpants, Bible Belt Creationists, devil worshippers, self-professed witches, Jewish landgrabbers with a mandate from their god, Hindu caste bigots, Scientologists who believe we're left-overs from some ancient alien race galaxies away, or the darned Pope.

    Cheers. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #13 - October 31, 2008, 12:19 PM
    Just one main member appears to have a big issue with it, you have alot of other members who appear to agree with you.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #14 - October 31, 2008, 12:34 PM
    Hi Neil,

    I've just read Willie's posts and on one of them he states he is angry and upset. I wouldn't take too much notice of him. He was probably angry and upset before he logged on.

    What I don't like though, and I've heard it so often from armchair philosophers like Willie, is this idea that 'Well it isn't happening in the UK so it's none of our business, who cares'.

    Whenever I hear this attitude I'm hearing someone who isn't very happy and probably someone I wouldn't rely on if I needed a hand with something.

    Just my opinion on what I can gather from the tone of his posts.


  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #15 - October 31, 2008, 01:17 PM
    I agree, Berber and Speaklow, that Willie does seem to have a particular bee in his bonnet (someone I've known for a long time, by the way, and an admirable chap), but did you not notice how other posts (even my own, I must admit) tend to pussy-foot a little?

    Not twice would anyone think of trampling all over the unspeakable Pastor Fred Phelps and his Wetborough Baptists Church house of horrors, slamming the Panzer Pope for his stand against condoms as a blithering and dangerous idot, calling the Frundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints a bunch of pedophiliac perverts or Scientologists just sheer nuts; but posts against the excesses of Islam tend to be muted.

    Mohammed's god is just as much a bloodthirsty, paranoid, genocidal, woman-hating, two-faced, moronic, bigotted, racist, lying, Bronze-Aged egomaniac as that of Christianity and Judaism, his angel is just as much a figment of deranged imagination and wishful thinking as Joseph Smith's, the Muslim jiins are no less laughable than fairies at the bottom of the garden ... but there seems a general relucatnce (even in impolite company) to come straight out and say so.

    Or maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm reading reverse-prejudice into things when it doesn't exist. I'll have to watch the space.

    Thanks for taking the trouble to look, folks.

    Best. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #16 - October 31, 2008, 01:26 PM
    I think the only forums where you will find you don't have to pussy foot and tip toe on the subject (and I include this forum) are places like FFI and jihad chat.

    Everywhere else (this place included) will make you feel like you have to.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #17 - October 31, 2008, 01:28 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on October 31, 2008, 01:26 PM
    I think the only forums where you will find you don't have to pussy foot and tip toe on the subject (and I include this forum) are places like FFI and jihad chat.

    Everywhere else (this place included) will make you feel like you have to.


    I almost got booted out of a catholic forum (of the kumbayah-type - yuck!) for daring to criticise Mohammed... wacko
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #18 - October 31, 2008, 01:30 PM
    Exactly, I've even found that places you least expect it from (like a forum for thinkers who are apparantly not supposed to fear discussing anything) expects a certain level of pussy footing or out the door.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #19 - October 31, 2008, 01:53 PM
    Mind you, Berber and Dio, there's a similar fear of "undue" insult by implication when discussing Judaism.

    There's a very sound case for the relatively late compilation of the books of what's become known as the Old Testament -- inspired by political and nationalistic necessity as recently as the Hasmodean period. But I have seen quite admirable scholars accused tut-tuttingly of racism (rather than the more acceptable religious skepticism) for saying so.

    Perhaps the problem we all have with criticising some religions is that many are, indeed, still largely associated with race, nationality and culture.

    It's religion I'm against, not the folks who come from backgrounds, areas and cultures where it's practiced (unless they're guilty of exploiting it).

    To be wary of taking a poke at some selected religions is, in its way, pandering to a nasty race game that those of us lucky enough to have critical and reasoning minds should have left far behind, swinging off a branch somewhere ... by its neck if not by its tail.

    Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #20 - October 31, 2008, 02:52 PM
    Quote from: neilmarr on October 31, 2008, 01:53 PM
    Hasmodean*

     Hasmonean
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #21 - October 31, 2008, 07:11 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on October 31, 2008, 11:42 AM
    Quote from: speaklow on October 28, 2008, 04:31 PM

    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24566712-1702,00.html?from=public_rss

    I'd be interested in member's ideas on how to put a stop to this practice. Human rights and women's groups seemed to have failed.



    As long as the government of said country doesn't have an issue with it, I don't see how anything we suggest can change the practise.

    How about lodging a strong protest with their foreign office or ambassador? They must have an e-mail add.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #22 - October 31, 2008, 09:51 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on October 31, 2008, 01:26 PM
    I think the only forums where you will find you don't have to pussy foot and tip toe on the subject (and I include this forum) are places like FFI and jihad chat.

    Everywhere else (this place included) will make you feel like you have to.

    Well I don't think there should be any requirement to pussy foot around when discussing the basics of the religion itself. It's the old story: by giving reverence, of any amount, where it isn't due you are providing a convenient habitat for the extremists. Mohammed was not a perfect example for all men for all time. Far from it. In fact he really was a pretty bloody horrendous example. I see no more reason for him to be regarded as holy than I see for granting Attila the Hun the same status.

    By pussy footing around about what he was really like you only add to the aura of "respect" around him, thereby giving people more reason to bloody well believe it. This, in turn, will only help sustain his ideology which does result in "extremism" when people decide to take it seriously. Fortunately most Muslims are too busy being normal people to take their religion all that seriously but the world has plenty of examples of what can happen if someone decides to.

    It aint pretty, and it shouldn't be encouraged in any way. No matter how much the moderates twist and turn the fact remains that the basis of their religion is barbaric. They may not wish to acknowledge this, for a variety of reasons, and they'll invent no end of convenient rationalisations to support their status quo but ultimately that's their problem. Nobody else should be obliged to kowtow to it.

    What is not acceptable IMO is the sort of screaming lunacy propounded by the "anti-jihadi jihadis", as I refer to them. These are the people who are just as extreme as the ones they profess to despise. They're just as dangerous and no more trustworthy.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #23 - November 01, 2008, 06:43 AM
    *Hasmonean*. You're right, of course, Awais. Sorry. Slip of the fingers.

    If you're interested, by the way, a fascinating, information-packed thread has been running on this very subject over at www.jesusneverexisted.com involving some impressively knowledgeable members. I, as you've just noticed, am not one of them -- but I've been getting some valuable tips on reading material. Just picked up Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's The Bible Unearthed as one on my list. Utterly absorbing and, fortunately, in spite of its complex subject matter, written in layman's terms that even I can understand. Very best. Neil
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #24 - November 01, 2008, 07:57 AM
    That is a particularly good book. Well worth reading. It certainly punctures a few balloons too. cool2
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #25 - November 01, 2008, 08:35 AM
    Don't it just, Osmanthus! By the way, is there a 'recommended reading' thread here where members can suggest books to each other and maybe even offer a sentence or two of review? Cheers. Neil

    WOOPS! Sorry, I just found that section here: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=73.0. N
    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #26 - November 01, 2008, 10:20 AM
    Quote from: awais.x on October 31, 2008, 02:52 PM
    Quote from: neilmarr on October 31, 2008, 01:53 PM
    Hasmodean*

     Hasmonean


    Hass moaning? No, he's just in a huff. Again Smiley
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Indonesian cleric 'to marry seven-year-old girl'
     Reply #27 - November 01, 2008, 06:37 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on October 31, 2008, 11:57 AM
    Quote from: whatabastor on October 31, 2008, 11:34 AM
    People living in primative conditions will follow primative ways... that is it... nothing more, nothing less.

    Let it be known that I opose this shiznit... now that has been said... legal age to drink in the US is 21, in the rest of the world its younger than that, legal age to get married in Canada is 16 its more in other counties, and less in others.

    Age expectancy varies also, in most of the undeveloped world 50 is ooooooooooooold, in the developed world 30 is the new 20... so as u can see, its all relative... and what is repulsive to us is common in other countries... what do you think of eating bugs? I am sure u can see where I am heading with all of this.


    I can see where you're headed but I don't agree with you.  The law in Indonesia sets the age of consent at higher than 7, so even if you accept the cultural relativism argument, it doesn't apply to something Indonesians themselves have decided is unacceptable.

    Their secular code of law sets the min age at 18 for both sexes. The Muslim code which seems to have some sway sets it at 'the age of puberty' generally accepted as 15 in Indonesia.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
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