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Theme Changer

 Topic: Your Muslim background

 (Read 21673 times)
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  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #60 - November 01, 2008, 07:40 PM

    Unless you can back your hopes with some solid statistics I'd say they just smack of naivety on your part. Wink


    Only 3% of Muslims who were born Muslim leave the religion. Compare this to 15% for Xtians and 17% for Jews.

    73% of statistics are made up on the spot.

    I havent the foggiest - going on anecdotal evidence, so yes - naivity in all its glory.

    You've just reminded me of that good old saw - 'There are people who make things happen, people who watch things happen and people who wonder what happened' . The naive are obviously the latter and you don't strike me that way. So what's your agendum?


    I have to agree with sojo.

    I'm not too sure about what Hassan1's agendum is. He's either out of curiosity taking a look at the ex-muslims in the goldfish bowl or what I think is really going on is he's looking for pointers on how to work through his own apostasy.

    If that is the case my advice would be to just get on with it.



    Speaklow/Sojo

    I would ask that you not pontificate about me in such condescnding manner. I have stated what my agenda is - genuine curiosity. This may be hard to stomach, but I ask you to trust this Hassan1 fella you've never met in real life, nor know nothing about. It's a leap of faith you have to make from time to time in the e-world.

    :-)

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #61 - November 01, 2008, 07:41 PM

    Hi Hassan1,

    Well this thread is diverting away from your initial post regarding your investigation on the background of the various ex-muslims on this site.

    Having read some of their responses what are the conclusions you've drawn.

    I think all members would be more interested in your thoughts on this subject rather than debating a period in the history of Southern Spain that took place a thousand years ago.




    I agree. Evolution of discussion can be horrendous at times.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #62 - November 01, 2008, 08:01 PM

    Demogorgon, I didn't get this view from popular culture. It's not a value opinion to state this. It is a fact that from the fall of Rome until the European Renaissance, there's no evidence of anything happening in Europe apart from book-burning. At the time this was happening the Muslim world was vibrant and progressive, and thanks to this, Europe was able to maintain a link with classical Hellenic learning, the reintroduction into Europe of which sparked its renaissance. This is a fairly basic and meaningless fact. It doesn't make Islam brilliant, so as I said, I don't even know why it's being debated. It's inconsequential.

    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #63 - November 01, 2008, 09:23 PM

    Demogorgon, I didn't get this view from popular culture. It's not a value opinion to state this. It is a fact that from the fall of Rome until the European Renaissance, there's no evidence of anything happening in Europe apart from book-burning.


    Really?
    Then what about the so-called Carolingian renaissance from 8th century onwards? What about the extensive network of universities which started to mushroom all over Europe from 12th century onwards? What about scientific communities in European monasteries which gave the intellectual base for Scientific Revolution?

    P.S. Never heard about any book-burning in Europe before 15th century.

    Quote
    At the time this was happening the Muslim world was vibrant and progressive, and thanks to this, Europe was able to maintain a link with classical Hellenic learning


    Muslim world simply inherited the most vibrant and relatively untouched areas of the old Mediterranean civilization. However, it stagnated somewhere around 9th century. As to the passing of ancient knowledge, the Byzantine played much bigger role. However, unlike Muslims, they do not have direct descendants to claim their legacy.

    But first of all, not that much was lost in Europe after the fall of Rome. The collapse of the Empire was disaster in terms of economy and demographics, not culture.

    Check out some works of art from so called "Dark Ages" of Europe:
    Mosaic from 5th century, Italy
    Sculpture from 6th century, Italy
    Irish gospel, 7th century
    Manuscript from 8th century, England
    Carolingian ilumination from 9th century
    Manustript from 9th century, France
    Magnificent minatures, 11th century, Germany
    Metal doors from 11th century, Poland

    And so on, and so on.... Still thinking that the only thing the Europeans did then was book burning?

    Quote
    , the reintroduction into Europe of which sparked its renaissance.


    By the time the Renaissance in Europe started, Muslim world was already centuries after its cultural climax. It is well established fact, that already in 12th century crafts in southern Europe were far more advanced than those on the Muslim side of the Mediterranean sea. For example, Muslim powers were buying tools and weapons from Italian city-states in 12th century, despite the fact that the Pope explicitly banned such trade.

    Quote
    This is a fairly basic and meaningless fact.


    Tend to disagree. And many scholars also.

    Quote
    It doesn't make Islam brilliant, so as I said


    I agree and add more - no religion is brilliant.

    No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #64 - November 02, 2008, 06:18 AM

    A tribe of marouding Mongols conquered perhaps half of the known world through brute force - were they more advanced than the civilisations they razed to the ground? Military might should not be equated with cultural, social and academic advancement.

    What has that got to do with my question? Do you understand what I was saying? (I'm not being facetious- it appears you do not understand what I was saying).

    What I was saying was since you believe that it was a small Islamic influence that caused Spain's greatness, then surely a large Islamic influence (as was present in North Africa) would cause even more greatness. 
    Furthermore, since the very people who -you believe- caused Spanish greatness, were pushed out of Spain and into North Africa, surely even if North Africa wasn't yet great they could repeat what they did in Spain?
    The Europeans who went to Australia, America, South Africa etc. set up societies which were just as advanced as in their homecountries - why were these Muslims unable to do this?

    I'll give you an opposing interpretation:
    Does it not appear that getting rid of Islam causes a country to become great?
    Here we have the example of Spain getting rid of Islam and becoming a great power.
    In the 20th century Israel got rid of the influence of Islam - and has become one of the wealthiest and most dynamic countries on earth.
    India, now that it is free of Islam has also begun its rise to become a modern superpower, leaving its Islamic neighbours behind - they have even recently launched a probe to the moon.
    Do you not agree that evidence points to the fact that removing Islam from a society makes it great?  Just imagine how great Saudi Arabia could be if we just removed Islam from it - based on what you believe happened in Spain because of the removal of Islam.

  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #65 - November 02, 2008, 03:01 PM

    A tribe of marouding Mongols conquered perhaps half of the known world through brute force - were they more advanced than the civilisations they razed to the ground? Military might should not be equated with cultural, social and academic advancement.

    What has that got to do with my question? Do you understand what I was saying? (I'm not being facetious- it appears you do not understand what I was saying).


    Sorry, I misunderstoof your original post (Perhaps you could have phrased it better  Tongue) . I was under the impression that you were implying that had the Muslims been so advanced, they would not have been driven out by the Barbarians. My mistake.

    It is worth noting that the Muslims werent driven out in one fell swoop. Some stayed and practised islam covertly, some converted to catholicism, some died in battle, and some returned to shores of Africa from whence they came. Needless to say, If a civilisation is built over several undred years, it isn't particularly easy to pick up and start again elsewhere. Which is maybe why such level of technological and societal advancement could not have been mantained in the Maghreb.

     Smiley

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #66 - November 02, 2008, 03:11 PM

    I'll give you an opposing interpretation:
    Does it not appear that getting rid of Islam causes a country to become great?
    Here we have the example of Spain getting rid of Islam and becoming a great power.
    In the 20th century Israel got rid of the influence of Islam - and has become one of the wealthiest and most dynamic countries on earth.
    India, now that it is free of Islam has also begun its rise to become a modern superpower, leaving its Islamic neighbours behind - they have even recently launched a probe to the moon.
    Do you not agree that evidence points to the fact that removing Islam from a society makes it great?  Just imagine how great Saudi Arabia could be if we just removed Islam from it - based on what you believe happened in Spain because of the removal of Islam.




    Various other contributing factors should also be taken into consuderation. For instance, it is unlikely that Israel could be the powerhouse it is today without the sustained efforts of successive American governments, keen to have a rapture-causing ally in the middle-east. India has shown steady signs of economic growth, but a signifcant minority still luve in abject squalor - which is hardly anything to write home about.

    That asside, this would all be better discussed in another thread.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #67 - November 02, 2008, 03:58 PM

    Another relevant point is that the Andalusian caliphate was weakened before being expelled. They imported a stack of mercenary troops from northern Africa and these guys were not like the Andalusians (ie: sophisticated and wordly). They were more like the original tribal followers of Mohammed and followed a very strict version of Islam. When they weren't busy fighting infidels for al Andalus they went nuts at what they saw as the decadence of the caliphate and managed to cause quite a bit of destruction.

    So quite apart from being weakened by the actions of other Muslims in Spain any Andalusians wishing to re-establish the same society in northern Africa would have been up against the belief system of the whole country. Still, you're left with the conclusion (or at least I am) that al Andalus flourished primarily because its rulers did not take Islam too seriously. They were more like today's "cultural Muslims" than today's Wahabbis.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #68 - November 02, 2008, 04:44 PM

    This issue seems to get very polarized really easily... between those who villify the Arab invaders and those who glorify them.  They inherited a lot, they contributed a lot... there were a lot of ups and downs, they were there for centuries.  Any characterizing of Arab controlled Spain as a complete travesty, or the best thing ever to happen to Europe - is gonna be inaccurate.  Reality's probably somewhere in between.  It always is.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #69 - November 03, 2008, 11:51 AM

    Quote from: Hassan1
    Surely in countries where secularism rules the roost (Turkey for instance) conversion out of islam would be rife.

    Secularism "doesn't rule the roost" in Turkey, we're far short of that. Our secular laws have been under attack almost since their conception, and there has always been great pressure from conservative circles against religious minorities, agnostics/atheists, and non-conformist lifestyles. Even after the jurisdictional limbs of Islam are ripped off, you have to deal with its social/cultural poison.

    That being said, there are plenty of apostates in Turkey, and some of them are out-spoken about it. There are atheist/skeptical columnists and authors, to begin with. I was an apostate before I found this movement, and most of my friends have some skeptic attitude towards Islam at the very least.

    I'm proud to be inside that 3%.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
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