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Theme Changer

 Topic: Your Muslim background

 (Read 21657 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #30 - October 31, 2008, 07:42 PM

    I entirely agree with that LoS. Sometimes it's just an accident waiting to happen. All it takes is intolerable demographic, economic or political pressure and some religio-nut pops out of the woodwork with what looks like an answer when no others are forthcoming. Then bingo, another religion or sect springs into being.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #31 - October 31, 2008, 09:59 PM

    Yup, that sums it up very nicely. In fact LoS's last post is damned near sig-worthy. Afro

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #32 - November 01, 2008, 12:16 AM


    Uh, wrong.  As someone who is still Muslim, you must afford your own religion and it's people the same eye that you afford Christianity. By this, I am referring to the piles and piles of books and articles and so on that talk about how so and so was a devout Christian or staunch atheist before 'embracing' Islam.  Muslim dawahgandists often make a specific point of talking about how strong these converts were in their previous religion to circumvent any claim from others that the only reason they could have 'embraced' Islam is that they didn't know enough about Christianity or whatever to make an informed choice.


    That is a fair comment. COnsidering that I am "exposed" to material focusing on conversions to islam and away from other religions, and never vice versa, that my reaction towards those who have left the religion is, to say the least, surprise. That is not to say, however, that conversions out of Islam are as commonplace as they are for other religions. Or does that statement just smack of naivity on my part?

     

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #33 - November 01, 2008, 12:24 AM

    Unless you can back your hopes with some solid statistics I'd say they just smack of naivety on your part. Wink

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #34 - November 01, 2008, 12:25 AM

    Quote
    Or does that statement just smack of naivity on my part?


    I'm afraid it does.  It is naive to overlook the fact that there are muslim countries which wield judicial penalties for apostasy, whereas there are no equivalences in the Christian, Hindu, Jewish etc countries.  If you whittle it down to countries where there is no legal penalty for leaving the majority faith of the country, muslims will automatically be in the minority.  Why?  Because it is countries which have only a minority of muslims that exact no penalty for apostasy, and that in itself skews the numbers.

    Furthermore, the countries where you can freely leave your religion have usually less than 10% muslims in their demographic, so obviously the numbers of muslims openly leaving are going to be lower.

    How many apostates do you think there would be in Saudi Arabia or Sudan, or Afghanistan, if they weren't threatened with lengthy imprisonment, or even death?


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #35 - November 01, 2008, 12:27 AM

    Unless you can back your hopes with some solid statistics I'd say they just smack of naivety on your part. Wink


    Only 3% of Muslims who were born Muslim leave the religion. Compare this to 15% for Xtians and 17% for Jews.

    73% of statistics are made up on the spot.

    I havent the foggiest - going on anecdotal evidence, so yes - naivity in all its glory.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #36 - November 01, 2008, 12:31 AM

    Quote
    Or does that statement just smack of naivity on my part?


    I'm afraid it does.  It is naive to overlook the fact that there are muslim countries which wield judicial penalties for apostasy, whereas there are no equivalences in the Christian, Hindu, Jewish etc countries.  If you whittle it down to countries where there is no legal penalty for leaving the majority faith of the country, muslims will automatically be in the minority.  Why?  Because it is countries which have only a minority of muslims that exact no penalty for apostasy, and that in itself skews the numbers.

    Furthermore, the countries where you can freely leave your religion have usually less than 10% muslims in their demographic, so obviously the numbers of muslims openly leaving are going to be lower.

    How many apostates do you think there would be in Saudi Arabia or Sudan, or Afghanistan, if they weren't threatened with lengthy imprisonment, or even death?


    Im not sure how many "Islamic" countries have the death penalty for Apostacy...? You've found 3 obvious candidates (Sudan, Afghanistan and Saudi) that most probably do - but there are numerous other Muslim majority countries which I believe dont. Off the top of my head, I would say Senegal, Uzbekistan and Turmenistan probably dont have the death penalty...?

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #37 - November 01, 2008, 12:36 AM

    Quote
    Im not sure how many "Islamic" countries have the death penalty for Apostacy...? You've found 3 obvious candidates (Sudan, Afghanistan and Saudi) that most probably do - but there are numerous other Muslim majority countries which I believe dont. Off the top of my head, I would say Senegal, Uzbekistan and Turmenistan probably dont have the death penalty...?


    Perfectly true, but does nothing to damage the point I made.  You agree there are at least three muslim countries which punish apostates, Iran of course is a fourth.

    Can you name me four Christian countries which have a similar law? 

    The point being that if all things were equal, and you knew more apostates from other religions than Islam, then you could say more people leave other faiths.  But all things are not equal.

    Islam silences apostates with more ruthlessness than its major competitors, which is why you see less open apostasy from the "religion of peace."   Roll Eyes

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #38 - November 01, 2008, 12:38 AM

    Hassan1, I would like to have a discussion with you about any good thread or subject from the koran. Any from your choice, I do not want a silly verse, i want a subject that you think is good in the koran and you would like to talk about it.

    You are welcome to refer to stuff other people posted, but all the words you use from them have to be your own. Any subject you want, marriage, women, fascism, crime & punishment, morality, ethics, anything, I am sure there is at least One good subject you know from the koran. Let me know and I can open a thread or you can open a thread directly.

    6200 verses, written by a transcendent being. The book should be your strongest asset. Just take the book and open randomly at any page, maybe you will find a subject.



    Can we discuss Monotheism please? Seeing as though that is the prevailing message of the Quran. You can do the honors and start a thread

    Quote
    I am also curious to know, in practice, who do you know, other then the first arabs ammawids/abbasids who got the koran in their society and it improved them? It made them better? Which Khalifa or muslim ruler from the last 1400yrs, you would want to bring back? what is this book that, anytime a society gets in their midst, that society deteriorates. what is up with that?


    I believe that Islamic Spain would be a prime example of a society which has learnt from islam, advanced itself beyond all realms imaginable at the time, and provided the impetus for a european rennesaince that shook the cornerstones of history.


    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #39 - November 01, 2008, 12:43 AM

    Quote
    Im not sure how many "Islamic" countries have the death penalty for Apostacy...? You've found 3 obvious candidates (Sudan, Afghanistan and Saudi) that most probably do - but there are numerous other Muslim majority countries which I believe dont. Off the top of my head, I would say Senegal, Uzbekistan and Turmenistan probably dont have the death penalty...?


    Perfectly true, but does nothing to damage the point I made.  You agree there are at least three muslim countries which punish apostates, Iran of course is a fourth.

    Can you name me four Christian countries which have a similar law? 

    The point being that if all things were equal, and you knew more apostates from other religions than Islam, then you could say more people leave other faiths.  But all things are not equal, obviously.

    Islam silences apostates with more ruthlessness than its major competitors, which is why you see less open apostasy from the "religion of peace."   Roll Eyes


    Cheetah,

    If I understood correctly, the argument you brought forth for lack of converts out of islam was the death penalty for Apsotacy. I contend that, bar a dozen or so nations, the death penalty is either not the law of the land - or at worst, is scatnly enforced. Surely in countries where secularism rules the roost (Turkey for instance) conversion out of islam would be rife. Likewise with...umm..the Ivory Coast.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #40 - November 01, 2008, 12:49 AM

    Quote
    Cheetah,

    If I understood correctly, the argument you brought forth for lack of converts out of islam was the death penalty for Apsotacy. I contend that, bar a dozen or so nations, the death penalty is either not the law of the land - or at worst, is scatnly enforced. Surely in countries where secularism rules the roost (Turkey for instance) conversion out of islam would be rife. Likewise with...umm..the Ivory Coast.


    Hello Hassan,

    The argument I was making is that all things are not equal.  Some muslim countries have judicial punishments for apostasy(not necessarily the death penalty), whereas there are NO christian, hindu, jewish, etc nations which do the same.  So a dozen or so, according to you, as opposed to none from any other religion?

    That does not sound like a situation where all things are equal and you therefore  cannot compare like with like.


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #41 - November 01, 2008, 12:56 AM

    Quote
    Cheetah,

    If I understood correctly, the argument you brought forth for lack of converts out of islam was the death penalty for Apsotacy. I contend that, bar a dozen or so nations, the death penalty is either not the law of the land - or at worst, is scatnly enforced. Surely in countries where secularism rules the roost (Turkey for instance) conversion out of islam would be rife. Likewise with...umm..the Ivory Coast.


    Hello Hassan,

    The argument I was making is that all things are not equal.  Some muslim countries have judicial punishments for apostasy(not necessarily the death penalty), whereas there are NO christian, hindu, jewish, etc nations which do the same.  So a dozen or so, according to you, as opposed to none from any other religion?

    That does not sound like a situation where all things are equal and you therefore  cannot compare like with like.




    I do see where you are coming from. Absolute compariosn in it's entirety would not be possible - agreed. But that is not to say that we cannot find subsets of the muslim world which are comparable to the previaling situations in non-muslim countries.

    That said - this discussion is fruitless. No data exists to guage the differences in conversion trends anyway!

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #42 - November 01, 2008, 01:24 AM

    I'd suspect there'd be more people converting to Islam than out of it.  At least openly.



    Some Christians face difficulties with their families when they convert, and some are even disowned.  But your standard British or N American family support structure isn't nearly prominent in those societies as it is to one from a typical Muslim socieity.  For so many people from the Middle East or South Asia, being divorced from that support structure is simply unthinkable. 

    And it goes beyond the family unit... converts out of Islam can face ostracization from their whole community in some pretty severe ways. 

    So even though it may be impossible to know, I'd be willing to bet that een without the death penalty in place, there are more coming than going.  At least openly.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #43 - November 01, 2008, 02:19 AM

    Quote
    That said - this discussion is fruitless. No data exists to guage the differences in conversion trends anyway!


    That was my point really from the beginning Hassan.  You cannot say at all that conversions from or to one religion are more numerous than another.  It is pure naivete to think you can. Afro

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #44 - November 01, 2008, 08:06 AM

    Quote

    I believe that Islamic Spain would be a prime example of a society which has learnt from islam, advanced itself beyond all realms imaginable at the time, and provided the impetus for a european rennesaince that shook the cornerstones of history.




    Sorry to burst another Islamic propaganda bubble about Spain but I live in Spain and I can tell you that the Spanish would be really surprised to think that Muslims around the world have this idea that the Muslims who occupied their lands contributed in an overwhelmingly positive way to their development.

    Did you know that every year in some parts of Spain they have battle re-enactments where they chase the Moors 'out of town' and they are very proud of the fact which I personally find a little nationalistic but that's my opinion.

    This whole idea of a glorious Islamic period in Southern Europe originates very much from the Muslim side.

    Think about it, if things were so harmonious then Muslims would still be here in great numbers.

    With regards to the development of Spain the introduction of the jet engine in the 60's has done more for this country than anything else.


  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #45 - November 01, 2008, 08:42 AM

    ***Only 3% of Muslims who were born Muslim leave the religion***

    Babies are 'born' Muslim, Hassan? This must be some kind of Islamic miracle. How many new born babies have you interviewed to reach the conclusion that a single one has made his or her appearance into the world equipped with a religious faith as well as ten little fingers and ten little toes? Neil

    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #46 - November 01, 2008, 12:23 PM


    Sorry to burst another Islamic propaganda bubble about Spain but I live in Spain and I can tell you that the Spanish would be really surprised to think that Muslims around the world have this idea that the Muslims who occupied their lands contributed in an overwhelmingly positive way to their development.


    Numerous Historians have pointed towards Islamic Spain as being a beacon European society - a sort of melting pot of traditions, religions and cultures which has only recently been mirrored by the enlightened western world. A society of relative tolerance, which nurtured and cultivated a golden age of Jewish culture and tolerated other abrahamic religions.

    Quote
    Did you know that every year in some parts of Spain they have battle re-enactments where they chase the Moors 'out of town' and they are very proud of the fact which I personally find a little nationalistic but that's my opinion.


    Every year, the Pakistanis celebrate the birth of Muhammad Ali Jinnah - their Qqadi Azzam. They celebrate because he was the man who envisioned a seperate state for the muslims. Who bought them Pakistan and who gave them freedom. If there is unanimity on one thing in Pakistan, it is this notion that he was a great leader. Ask the Indians, however, what they think - and they will tell you a different story. They will tell you the story of a man who divided a people. A devisive and wicked man.
    A man who shatterd Ghandi's dream.

    The point im trying to make is, just because a people celebrate an event - doesnt neccesarily mean that said celebration is "right" or even historically justified.

    Celebration of victory over Muslims doesnt neccesarily mean that the Muslims were hated at the time, or were bad/unjust rulers. it just means that the victors decided to celebrate their victory, and that this tradtion of celebration been handed down generation after generation.

    Quote
    This whole idea of a glorious Islamic period in Southern Europe originates very much from the Muslim side.

    Think about it, if things were so harmonious then Muslims would still be here in great numbers.



    In a time where religious pluarility in any society was larely unheard of, the fact that christians existed in numerous numbers enough to overthrow their Muslim rulers (not sure of the specifics) demosntrates the relative tolerance of the Muslim rulers towards their non-muslim counterparts. The muslims were in Spain for a period of 700 years - had they wished, they could have enforced conversion on anyone and everyone. But they didnt.





    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #47 - November 01, 2008, 01:00 PM

    Quote
    The muslims were in Spain for a period of 700 years - had they wished, they could have enforced conversion on anyone and everyone. But they didnt.


    How generous of them.

    Remember they invaded in the first place and weren't welcome. They were occupiers regardless of what society they brought with them.

    Your slant here is typical of Muslim misinformation where Muslims like to think that they brought harmony to a part of Western Europe in the same way they like to believe that Muhammed brought order to the pagan tribes of Arabia.

    Take a look at the world today. If Spain had remained in Muslim hands and had become an extension of North Africa then it most likely wouldn't be as prosperous as it is today.

    I can tell you from first hand experience that there is practically zero Islamic influence on modern Spain.

    The only things that remains are a few Arabic sounding place names and some Arabic architectural peculiarities on buildings in the south of Spain.

    And for your information it was with the aid of the French that the Islamic presence was removed from the Spanish peninsular because the Muslims were moving ever northward and so were finally ejected from Spain.

    War with the invaders had gone on for centuries. It wasn't such a peaceful time as you might have been led to believe.



  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #48 - November 01, 2008, 01:42 PM

    I believe that Islamic Spain would be a prime example of a society which has learnt from islam, advanced itself beyond all realms imaginable at the time, and provided the impetus for a european rennesaince that shook the cornerstones of history.

    Do you agree that after the ejection of the Moors, North Africa did not develop to
    same extent as Spain?

    If you do, do you find it interesting that these Muslims could be such a great influence on someone else, yet when they were ejected from this society and "left to their own devices" in North Africa, their society and culture stagnated?

    How is it that would a small Islamic influence is able to make a society that is advanced "beyond all realms imaginable at the time", yet a large Islamic influence (such as North Africa of the time) cripples a society?

    Surely if the Muslims who caused the advancement of Spanish culture, and were so brilliant at bringing a bunch of barbarians (the Spanish) up to a society advanced "beyond all realms imaginable at the time", were ejected from Spain, any country that took these Muslims and kept them would itself become even more advanced than Spain?
    (A modern example of this is Americans and Soviets taking Nazi rocket engineers after WWII - the Soviets took the greater number of engineers and had a head start over the Americans )

    Or is it because what you are saying is complete and utter nonsense?

  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #49 - November 01, 2008, 06:29 PM

    Right. The Golden Age of Islam thing in Spain. My friends cited that a lot when they were trying to convert me. I think they would have been surprised to read this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/spain_3.shtml

    The thing that disgusts me the most is the "Acknowledge Islamic superiority" rule. That is such bullshit. "We won't kill you, but you have to go around saying that our 6th-century rip-off of your ancient tradition is superior to the religious way off life your ancestors have maintained for centuries (in the case of Judaism)." That is truely the bare minimum of "tolerance", and nothing to brag about. "I won't kill you if you say I'm better than you." It's disgusting.

    I wonder why none of the Muslims I talk to ever recognize how much of the history of Islam is a history of Imperialism. Spain, the Byzantine Empire, India, Persia - these are all the places where Muslims invaded by force, against fierce opposition from the people living there. I'm not saying any other religion is pure and golden, but Islam's certainly got a lot of blood and dirt on its hands.

    Though it has no bridge,
    The cloud climbs up to heaven;
    It does not seek the aid
    Of Gautama's sutras.

    - Ikkyu
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #50 - November 01, 2008, 06:51 PM

    Thanks for the article Lana. I hope Hassan1 takes the time to read it and perhaps not get all his info from Islamic websites.

    It's also worth remembering that some of the restrictions placed on non-Muslims by the occupiers in Spain still in various forms exist in places like Saudi Arabia and it's something we should bear in mind should Islam ever be allowed to take control in the civilized world.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Christian_Bypass.jpg

    Islam truly sucks.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #51 - November 01, 2008, 06:56 PM

    Unless you can back your hopes with some solid statistics I'd say they just smack of naivety on your part. Wink


    Only 3% of Muslims who were born Muslim leave the religion. Compare this to 15% for Xtians and 17% for Jews.

    73% of statistics are made up on the spot.

    I havent the foggiest - going on anecdotal evidence, so yes - naivity in all its glory.

    You've just reminded me of that good old saw - 'There are people who make things happen, people who watch things happen and people who wonder what happened' . The naive are obviously the latter and you don't strike me that way. So what's your agendum?

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #52 - November 01, 2008, 07:03 PM

    I believe that Islamic Spain would be a prime example of a society which has learnt from islam, advanced itself beyond all realms imaginable at the time, and provided the impetus for a european rennesaince that shook the cornerstones of history.


    Real Islamic Spain had little in common with what you say right here. Much of its wealth was inherited from Roman and Visigothic times because Spain was left relatively untouched during the times of barbarian invasions. The actual development of Al-Andalus was next to none. It was easily outcompeted in terms of economic progress by its tiny Christian neighbours. Plus, the government of Al-Andalus was highly intolerant towards Jews and Christians who ironically constituted most of its inhabitants.

    No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #53 - November 01, 2008, 07:11 PM

    Unless you can back your hopes with some solid statistics I'd say they just smack of naivety on your part. Wink


    Only 3% of Muslims who were born Muslim leave the religion. Compare this to 15% for Xtians and 17% for Jews.

    73% of statistics are made up on the spot.

    I havent the foggiest - going on anecdotal evidence, so yes - naivity in all its glory.

    You've just reminded me of that good old saw - 'There are people who make things happen, people who watch things happen and people who wonder what happened' . The naive are obviously the latter and you don't strike me that way. So what's your agendum?


    I have to agree with sojo.

    I'm not too sure about what Hassan1's agendum is. He's either out of curiosity taking a look at the ex-muslims in the goldfish bowl or what I think is really going on is he's looking for pointers on how to work through his own apostasy.

    If that is the case my advice would be to just get on with it.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #54 - November 01, 2008, 07:39 PM

    If he's the latter, I think he's a theorist/reflector and he'll  need to get something solid pieced together before he prepares to commit to a new start. He's certainly not an activist or he'd be trying out some new identity by now.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #55 - November 01, 2008, 09:33 PM

    As interesting as this debate about Islam's golden age is, it's irrelevant. As far as I know, the majority academic opinion is that the Islamic world held the torch of science and progress from the Greeks and Romans to Renaissance Europe. This certainly isn't Islamic propaganda, although it might be used for those purposes. You can dispute this for acadamic reasons, but I don't see why you have to refute it if you've left Islam. It does make it out like you've got a chip on your shoulder.

    About apostasy rates, you cannot make any claim for Muslim numbers as long as a) it's a crime to apostasise in places, and more importantly b) it's a major taboo in Muslim societies.

    I live in Britain, and I've never told anyone other than close family and friends that I'm not a Muslim, and I don't know if I ever will. I guess I'll have to always settle for being one of those 'Muslims by name' who pay their minimum allegiance by calling themselves Muslims, and if you're a girl, not having a non-Muslim partner.

    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #56 - November 01, 2008, 11:14 PM

    As far as I know, the majority academic opinion is that the Islamic world held the torch of science and progress from the Greeks and Romans to Renaissance Europe.


    This view is prevalent in popular culture and wikipedia-alikes, not in science. Few academics would subscribe under such oppinion and even smaller number would do that without additional reservations like giving credit to other factors.

    No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #57 - November 01, 2008, 11:26 PM

    Quote
    The muslims were in Spain for a period of 700 years - had they wished, they could have enforced conversion on anyone and everyone. But they didnt.


    How generous of them.

    Remember they invaded in the first place and weren't welcome. They were occupiers regardless of what society they brought with them.

    Your slant here is typical of Muslim misinformation where Muslims like to think that they brought harmony to a part of Western Europe in the same way they like to believe that Muhammed brought order to the pagan tribes of Arabia.

    Take a look at the world today. If Spain had remained in Muslim hands and had become an extension of North Africa then it most likely wouldn't be as prosperous as it is today.

    I can tell you from first hand experience that there is practically zero Islamic influence on modern Spain.

    The only things that remains are a few Arabic sounding place names and some Arabic architectural peculiarities on buildings in the south of Spain.

    And for your information it was with the aid of the French that the Islamic presence was removed from the Spanish peninsular because the Muslims were moving ever northward and so were finally ejected from Spain.

    War with the invaders had gone on for centuries. It wasn't such a peaceful time as you might have been led to believe.



    Speaklow,

    The initial "prompt" for this dialogue was when a member contended that no civilisation had benefitted from the advent of Islam. I am no historian, and to be completley honest with you - I do not know all the details surrounding Islam's stay in Spain. One thing I do know, is that given the "spirit of the time" the islamic civilisation in Spain was leagues ahead of the rest of Europe. This is not historical opinion, this is historical fact. Perpertated not by Muslims, but by impartial western hisotrians. I remember watching a documentary on islamic Spain some time ago - as luck would have it, this documentary is available on youtube.

    It is presented by Bettany Hughes, a bit of a prolific documentary maker with stacks of credibility.

    You can watch part 1 of 11 here:

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yT3Ua7H5yBo&feature=related


    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #58 - November 01, 2008, 11:33 PM

    Surely if the Muslims who caused the advancement of Spanish culture, and were so brilliant at bringing a bunch of barbarians (the Spanish) up to a society advanced "beyond all realms imaginable at the time", were ejected from Spain, any country that took these Muslims and kept them would itself become even more advanced than Spain?



    Hupla,

    A tribe of marouding Mongols conquered perhaps half of the known world through brute force - were they more advanced than the civilisations they razed to the ground? Military might should not be equated with cultural, social and academic advancement.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Your Muslim background
     Reply #59 - November 01, 2008, 11:37 PM

    Hi Hassan1,

    Well this thread is diverting away from your initial post regarding your investigation on the background of the various ex-muslims on this site.

    Having read some of their responses what are the conclusions you've drawn.

    I think all members would be more interested in your thoughts on this subject rather than debating a period in the history of Southern Spain that took place a thousand years ago.

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