"We only kill apostates *sometimes* - so there is no need to worry.

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"We only kill apostates *sometimes* - so there is no need to worry.
OP - October 19, 2008, 11:29 AM

AC Grayling and the Council of Ex-Muslims are distorting the picture and undermining efforts to bring change
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/17/islam-religion1

Anyone up for writing a response to this?
Is it possible to get an article written?
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Re: "We only kill apostates *sometimes* - so there is no need to worry.
Reply #1 - October 19, 2008, 04:00 PM

That article reminds me of my naive days when I used to blindly defend Islam..."no it isn't ALL Muslims who think this way" or "It's a religion of peace really! Only the bad seeds get the media attention!"

Boy have I changed.
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Re: "We only kill apostates *sometimes* - so there is no need to worry.
Reply #2 - October 20, 2008, 10:24 PM

"Sometimes" sounds like "too damn many" to me.
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Re: "We only kill apostates *sometimes* - so there is no need to worry.
Reply #3 - October 21, 2008, 06:04 AM

Phew ... that's a relief. It's good to know that my new friends here might not necessarily be executed for their membership of the Council of ex-Muslims forums if they live ouside an Islamic theocracy.

So called 'moderte' religionists -- of any stripe -- (like the author of this sad article) scare the bejasus out of me. When will folks realise that their shoehorning of alleged reason into dangerous old religious texts is what gives them a false base of respectability that allows extremists to take those scriptures so literally as to cause untold misery? Neil.

PS. The death penalty has not been applied to ex-Church of Scotland members anywhere in the world (not even in Scotland itself) for some time now. Hoots toots the noo. Guess I'm just lucky. N

We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
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Re: "We only kill apostates *sometimes* - so there is no need to worry.
Reply #4 - October 25, 2008, 09:30 AM

Quote from: heartbomb on October 19, 2008, 04:00 PM
That article reminds me of my naive days when I used to blindly defend Islam..."no it isn't ALL Muslims who think this way"

Boy have I changed.

So now it ALL muslims who think this way?

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
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Re: "We only kill apostates *sometimes* - so there is no need to worry.
Reply #5 - October 25, 2008, 09:42 AM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on October 25, 2008, 09:30 AM
So now it ALL muslims who think this way?

No, but the Muslims who have the political power to execute apostates do not refrain from doing so. That's the core of the issue. Obviously there are some Muslim groups who disagree with fanatical Muslims, but somehow fail to oppose the Islamic tyranny... maybe because the Quran regurgitates so much venom against evil apostates. Moderate Muslims just want their own happiness, obsessed with their own image. I do not think they ever intend to reform Islam, unless there exists significant secular pressure. They are quite conservative in this regard.

At the end of day, apostates and heretics are still killed, thanks to the inherent beauty of Islam. Moderates live peacefully with their shiny-happy Islam, and the Islamists are free to wage their imperialistic jihad.

Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
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Re: "We only kill apostates *sometimes* - so there is no need to worry.
Reply #6 - October 25, 2008, 10:01 AM

Quote from: Zaephon on October 25, 2008, 09:42 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on October 25, 2008, 09:30 AM
So now it ALL muslims who think this way?

No, but the Muslims who have the political power to execute apostates do not refrain from doing so. That's the core of the issue. Obviously there are some Muslim groups who disagree with fanatical Muslims, but somehow fail to oppose the Islamic tyranny...

Really? seeing the number of dead Muslims (including many Imams) during the algerian civil war not to mention those Iraqis fighting Al-Qaeda in Irak or those fighting the Somali jihadists in Somalia id say you're spectacularly wrong.

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
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Re: "We only kill apostates *sometimes* - so there is no need to worry.
Reply #7 - October 25, 2008, 10:13 AM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on October 25, 2008, 10:01 AM
Quote from: Zaephon on October 25, 2008, 09:42 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on October 25, 2008, 09:30 AM
So now it ALL muslims who think this way?

No, but the Muslims who have the political power to execute apostates do not refrain from doing so. That's the core of the issue. Obviously there are some Muslim groups who disagree with fanatical Muslims, but somehow fail to oppose the Islamic tyranny...

Really? seeing the number of dead Muslims (including many Imams) during the algerian civil war not to mention those Iraqis fighting Al-Qaeda in Irak or those fighting the Somali jihadists in Somalia id say you're spectacularly wrong.

I'm telling you buddy, ignore him. He knows not what he does.

Ha Ha.
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Re: "We only kill apostates *sometimes* - so there is no need to worry.
Reply #8 - October 25, 2008, 10:19 AM

Quote from: Jack Torrance on October 25, 2008, 10:13 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on October 25, 2008, 10:01 AM
Quote from: Zaephon on October 25, 2008, 09:42 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on October 25, 2008, 09:30 AM
So now it ALL muslims who think this way?

No, but the Muslims who have the political power to execute apostates do not refrain from doing so. That's the core of the issue. Obviously there are some Muslim groups who disagree with fanatical Muslims, but somehow fail to oppose the Islamic tyranny...

Really? seeing the number of dead Muslims (including many Imams) during the algerian civil war not to mention those Iraqis fighting Al-Qaeda in Irak or those fighting the Somali jihadists in Somalia id say you're spectacularly wrong.

I'm telling you buddy, ignore him. He knows not what he does.

Yeah but its saturday and instead of working ive decided to procrastinate on the internet and for me its either this or tranny videos.

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
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Re: "We only kill apostates *sometimes* - so there is no need to worry.
Reply #9 - October 25, 2008, 10:21 AM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
Really? seeing the number of dead Muslims (including many Imams) during the algerian civil war not to mention those Iraqis fighting Al-Qaeda in Irak or those fighting the Somali jihadists in Somalia id say you're spectacularly wrong.

Yet they failed spectacularly. Are you sure that the Iraqis fighting al-Qaeda had any genuine interest in reforming Islam, to begin with? Was it self-interest that guided their efforts, or their personal freedoms?

How many Jihadist warriors do you think there are for every anti-Islamist martyr, or warrior?

Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
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Re: "We only kill apostates *sometimes* - so there is no need to worry.
Reply #10 - October 25, 2008, 10:28 AM

Quote from: Zaephon on October 25, 2008, 10:21 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
Really? seeing the number of dead Muslims (including many Imams) during the algerian civil war not to mention those Iraqis fighting Al-Qaeda in Irak or those fighting the Somali jihadists in Somalia id say you're spectacularly wrong.

Yet they failed spectacularly. Are you sure that the Iraqis fighting al-Qaeda had any genuine interest in reforming Islam, to begin with? Was it self-interest that guided their efforts, or their personal freedoms?

They didnt fail spectacularly, the Islamists are no governing Algeria (which is what they wanted) because the majority of the population is against them. The Somali Jihadists aren't either. Id say that's a pretty NO to their brand of Islam.

I think the Iraqis fighting Al-Qaeda do not agree with AQ's brand of Islam and are showing it through their deeds. These are of course fieldmen/foot soldiers not Islamic intellectuals who have for the most part completely rejected this interpretation.

These people are dying, fighting against those who say they hold to the true Islam. Id call that standing up

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
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Re: "We only kill apostates *sometimes* - so there is no need to worry.
Reply #11 - October 25, 2008, 10:33 AM

Quote from: Zaephon on October 25, 2008, 10:21 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
Really? seeing the number of dead Muslims (including many Imams) during the algerian civil war not to mention those Iraqis fighting Al-Qaeda in Irak or those fighting the Somali jihadists in Somalia id say you're spectacularly wrong.

How many Jihadist warriors do you think there are for every anti-Islamist martyr, or warrior?

There are still very few jihadist warriors, even now (after the unbelievable stupidity of invading Iraq and seemingly confirming everything Osama was ranting about) there are only a few thousand of them. They have been able to accomplish nothing because muslims wouldnt let them (and died for that). If Iraqis supported AQ it wouldve been over from day one (same with Somalia, Algeria, Indonesia etc.)

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
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Re: "We only kill apostates *sometimes* - so there is no need to worry.
Reply #12 - October 25, 2008, 10:42 AM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
I think the Iraqis fighting Al-Qaeda do not agree with AQ's brand of Islam and are showing it through their deeds. These are of course fieldmen/foot soldiers not Islamic intellectuals who have for the most part completely rejected this interpretation.

I have great respect for any Muslim who challenges orthodox Islam. The more orthodox Islam is challenged, the better. The more secular the Islamic world, the better. All these attempts pave the way for the gradual collapse of Islam, just like the struggle for secularism in Europe finally crippled Christianity.

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
These people are dying, fighting against those who say they hold to the true Islam. Id call that standing up

As much as I have great respect for these people, I don't think their efforts are enough. The two examples you have offered are unfortunately very local phenomena. Apostates, religious minorities, women, heterodox thinkers are still persecuted in almost all the corners of the Islamic world. Why should we suffer limited freedom, while we can extend our hands and grasp all of it?

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
There are still very few jihadist warriors, even now (after the unbelievable stupidity of invading Iraq and seemingly confirming everything Osama was ranting about) there are only a few thousand of them.

Proof? Maybe you would like to elaborate. The killing of apostates is just one concern out of many.

Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
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Re: "We only kill apostates *sometimes* - so there is no need to worry.
Reply #13 - October 25, 2008, 10:45 AM

Quote from: Zaephon on October 25, 2008, 10:42 AM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe
I think the Iraqis fighting Al-Qaeda do not agree with AQ's brand of Islam and are showing it through their deeds. These are of course fieldmen/foot soldiers not Islamic intellectuals who have for the most part completely rejected this interpretation.

I have great respect for any Muslim who challenges orthodox Islam. The more orthodox Islam is challenged, the better. The more secular the Islamic world, the better. All these attempts pave the way for the gradual collapse of Islam, just like the struggle for secularism in Europe finally crippled Christianity.

They are no challenging Orthodox Islam, they are challenging AQ's contention that they represent Orthodox Islam.

These people may be devout believers or secularists but none of them is against the religion itself

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
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Re: "We only kill apostates *sometimes* - so there is no need to worry.
Reply #14 - October 25, 2008, 05:53 PM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on October 25, 2008, 10:19 AM

Yeah but its saturday and instead of working ive decided to procrastinate on the internet and for me its either this or tranny videos.

Tranny video's? What branch of Islam do you follow? Or are you referring to those nice dresses that muslim men wear?

Ha Ha.
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Re: "We only kill apostates *sometimes* - so there is no need to worry.
Reply #15 - October 26, 2008, 03:28 PM

Quote from: Jack Torrance on October 25, 2008, 05:53 PM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on October 25, 2008, 10:19 AM

Yeah but its saturday and instead of working ive decided to procrastinate on the internet and for me its either this or tranny videos.

Tranny video's? What branch of Islam do you follow? Or are you referring to those nice dresses that muslim men wear?

I was joking about the tranny videos Jack

"By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

"Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
- Quran 4:78
- Jack Torrance
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Re: "We only kill apostates *sometimes* - so there is no need to worry.
Reply #16 - October 26, 2008, 03:42 PM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on October 26, 2008, 03:28 PM
Quote from: Jack Torrance on October 25, 2008, 05:53 PM
Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on October 25, 2008, 10:19 AM

Yeah but its saturday and instead of working ive decided to procrastinate on the internet and for me its either this or tranny videos.

Tranny video's? What branch of Islam do you follow? Or are you referring to those nice dresses that muslim men wear?

I was joking about the tranny videos Jack

Damn!

Do you pray the full five times a day? Be honest.

Ha Ha.
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Re: "We only kill apostates *sometimes* - so there is no need to worry.
Reply #17 - October 26, 2008, 04:05 PM

It might be hard to detect whether this piece is actually apologia or merely a muslim attempt to absorb the challenge being made to Islamic oppression. She attacks what is essentially a straw man in response to AC Grayling as by 'Islamic states' I think he meant just that.

Quote
you would think that the death penalty is being gratuitously and frequently applied to those who renounce Islam or harbour thoughts of apostasy.

'Gratuitously'? When is it actually justified? The allusion contained here nevertheless stands in contrast to the author's lip-service to secularism and de-politicization of Islam, which she tells us is a 'noble' cause. Maybe it's ok just when Islamic states institute it...

In any case, the death penalty is frequently applied to those who renounce Islam, whether that is carried out via formalized sharia or not. The extra-judicial murder of apostates is no less important than the statist one. Indeed they're both politically related.

I don't have much time - I have to go [maybe few days] - but she is quite ambiguous. Deserves scorn.

"...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
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