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Theme Changer

 Topic: So hindus like the forced conversions too.....

 (Read 6500 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • So hindus like the forced conversions too.....
     OP - October 18, 2008, 02:23 PM

    Quote
    Extremists stoke the fires of persecution

    Hindus and Christians are at each other’s throats in Orissa, one of India’s poorest states

    It was a neighbour, a man Father Thomas Chellan knew well, who went to search for a tyre to set alight around the 57-year-old priest’s neck. One of the first victims of the antiChristian pogroms that have swept India for the past two months, he had already been beaten to his knees, stripped and doused with paraffin by the Hindu mob who had dragged him from his hiding place. “From now, you will pray only to Ram,” shouted his attackers, their foreheads smeared with blood-red vermillion.

    As one of the mob fumbled with a box of matches, the 28-year-old nun the priest had been hiding with in the village of Nuagaon in the remote jungle state of Orissa was hauled away. In a police report filed the next morning she said she was gang-raped by four men.

    Father Thomas’s life was saved when one of the mob suggested that the priest be burnt alive farther down the street “where more people could see”. The mob agreed and moved on but failed to settle on a new site. “I thought, my God, now I’m going to die,” Father Thomas said. “For these people, Christians are like animals.”

    Many Indians are shocked but few are surprised by the horrors in Orissa — a wave of murder and arson that has claimed 60 lives, destroyed more than 4,000 houses and left as many as 50,000 Christians homeless.

    Religious violence is on the rise across the country, setting Muslims, Hindus, Christians and even nature-worshipping animists against each other, ahead of a general election expected in March. This week Manmohan Singh, the Prime Minister, gave warning that the upsurge in interreligious strife threatens to destroy the “fundamental underpinnings” of the world’s largest democracy.

    Already the worlds of hundreds of families in Orissa have fallen apart. The Christians in the state’s squalid, under-resourced refugee camps say that they have been warned not to return home unless they convert to Hinduism. One priest described how his father had been forced to denounce his faith with an axe pressed to his throat. There are dozens of similar stories of forced conversions.

    >>> Full article <<<


    Meh, religion, colour, sex and ability, will we ever get tired of seeing ourselves as the enemy?  Roll Eyes

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: So hindus like the forced conversions too.....
     Reply #1 - October 18, 2008, 02:28 PM

    It's what we do best Berbs, don't fix it if it ain't broke. Nothing like a spot of gratuitous rapine and destruction for doubling the population.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: So hindus like the forced conversions too.....
     Reply #2 - October 18, 2008, 02:34 PM

    I don't think it would matter if we were all one race, one religion, one nationality, etc, etc.  The basis for discrimination would just get finer and finer and even stupider, like "his hair is cut 1/2 millimetre too long for my tastes, let's go kill him".

  • Re: So hindus like the forced conversions too.....
     Reply #3 - October 18, 2008, 02:37 PM

    I hope the day we get attacked by aliens and realise we are not alone in the world is the day we stop killing each other lol but I highly suspect we would be divided even then.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: So hindus like the forced conversions too.....
     Reply #4 - October 18, 2008, 02:45 PM

    I don't think it would matter if we were all one race, one religion, one nationality, etc, etc.  The basis for discrimination would just get finer and finer and even stupider, like "his hair is cut 1/2 millimetre too long for my tastes, let's go kill him".



    Did you ever see the racial/colour division system they had in S Africa during apartheid. Went right down to 1/32 I seem to remember.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: So hindus like the forced conversions too.....
     Reply #5 - October 18, 2008, 04:09 PM

    This has been going on for some time and is now spreading.  Some friends of mine just came from Orissa and heard many firsthand reports of the destruction and persecution.  Some have indeed agreed to reconvert and had to go through a ceremony that was alot like baptism! 

    The heading says that 'Christians and Hindus are at each others throats' but the whole article is about Hindu violence against Christians.  Why would they give it such a misleading heading?
  • Re: So hindus like the forced conversions too.....
     Reply #6 - October 18, 2008, 04:13 PM

    This has been going on for some time and is now spreading.  Some friends of mine just came from Orissa and heard many firsthand reports of the destruction and persecution.  Some have indeed agreed to reconvert and had to go through a ceremony that was alot like baptism! 

    The heading says that 'Christians and Hindus are at each others throats' but the whole article is about Hindu violence against Christians.  Why would they give it such a misleading heading?


    Well the article goes on to say:

    Quote
    At the most local level, the Orissa atrocities owe much to a longstanding rivalry between the two desperately poor communities that dominate Kandhamal, the district of the state that has witnessed the worst violence: the Pana dalits (or untouchables) and the Kandha adivasis (or tribals).

    Over several generations the Panas have moved towards Christianity after coming into contact with Roman Catholic, Baptist and, more recently, Pentecostal missionaries. The Kandhas, meanwhile, gravitated to Hinduism.

    The two groups compete for scarce resources in Orissa, one of India’s very poorest states. Tensions between them escalated when the Christian Pana community began to better themselves through education and were heightened further when the Panas began to demand Scheduled Tribe status, which would qualify them for benefits available only to Kandhas.

    Meanwhile, national extremist Hindu groups have stoked the Kandhas’ anxieties by claiming that foreign-backed Christian missionaries are engaged in a campaign of forced conversion in Kandhamal. The 500 refugees in the dilapidated YMCA building in Bhubaneshwar, the capital of Orissa, were in no doubt as to the loyalty of the Hindu fanatics who razed their villages and killed their relatives. Asked who was responsible for their plight, group by group they hissed: “RSS, RSS.”


    I have no idea how truthful that is, but that might be where the times got a tiny link in order to add Christians to the violent list.  wacko

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: So hindus like the forced conversions too.....
     Reply #7 - October 18, 2008, 04:29 PM

    Quote from: Berbs
    I have no idea how truthful that is, but that might be where the times got a tiny link in order to add Christians to the violent list.


    Not terribly strong evidence.  But I remember this from FFI.  The main accusation was bribery, if I remember.  Bribery='forced'.  Maybe so, but hardly violent.
  • Re: So hindus like the forced conversions too.....
     Reply #8 - October 18, 2008, 04:36 PM

    Quote from: Berbs
    I have no idea how truthful that is, but that might be where the times got a tiny link in order to add Christians to the violent list.


    Not terribly strong evidence.  But I remember this from FFI.  The main accusation was bribery, if I remember.  Bribery='forced'.  Maybe so, but hardly violent.



    Well in deriding one minority you have to show a willingness to deride your own so who needs strong evidence when a tenous link at best will suffice  Wink, just as long as no one feels offended because "hey, look, we admit christians are doing it too" then what does anything matter.

    I did read elsewhere that it was bribery too, and much as I don't approve, I would still take bribery over violence any day.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: So hindus like the forced conversions too.....
     Reply #9 - October 19, 2008, 05:25 PM

    Quote
    Extremists stoke the fires of persecution

    Hindus and Christians are at each other’s throats in Orissa, one of India’s poorest states

    It was a neighbour, a man Father Thomas Chellan knew well, who went to search for a tyre to set alight around the 57-year-old priest’s neck. One of the first victims of the antiChristian pogroms that have swept India for the past two months, he had already been beaten to his knees, stripped and doused with paraffin by the Hindu mob who had dragged him from his hiding place. “From now, you will pray only to Ram,” shouted his attackers, their foreheads smeared with blood-red vermillion.

    As one of the mob fumbled with a box of matches, the 28-year-old nun the priest had been hiding with in the village of Nuagaon in the remote jungle state of Orissa was hauled away. In a police report filed the next morning she said she was gang-raped by four men.

    Father Thomas’s life was saved when one of the mob suggested that the priest be burnt alive farther down the street “where more people could see”. The mob agreed and moved on but failed to settle on a new site. “I thought, my God, now I’m going to die,” Father Thomas said. “For these people, Christians are like animals.”

    Many Indians are shocked but few are surprised by the horrors in Orissa — a wave of murder and arson that has claimed 60 lives, destroyed more than 4,000 houses and left as many as 50,000 Christians homeless.

    Religious violence is on the rise across the country, setting Muslims, Hindus, Christians and even nature-worshipping animists against each other, ahead of a general election expected in March. This week Manmohan Singh, the Prime Minister, gave warning that the upsurge in interreligious strife threatens to destroy the “fundamental underpinnings” of the world’s largest democracy.

    Already the worlds of hundreds of families in Orissa have fallen apart. The Christians in the state’s squalid, under-resourced refugee camps say that they have been warned not to return home unless they convert to Hinduism. One priest described how his father had been forced to denounce his faith with an axe pressed to his throat. There are dozens of similar stories of forced conversions.

    >>> Full article <<<


    Meh, religion, colour, sex and ability, will we ever get tired of seeing ourselves as the enemy?  Roll Eyes

    I seem to remember that this is more about the Dalits trying to extricate themselves from the caste system by trying to build a new and equitable society and other groups, who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, showing them that whatever they do they will never get out of it.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: So hindus like the forced conversions too.....
     Reply #10 - October 20, 2008, 04:25 AM

    This all began because a Moaist revolutionary shot a Hindu Brahman.

    The Hindus don't want to go after the Maoist because...well...they shoot back obviously. So they use this as a pretext for persecuting Christians. This is ultimately about Dalits getting uppity & trying to get out from under Hindu persecution. Officially, untouchability no longer exists, but like you can pass a law one day & make thousands of years of custom just disappear. The nonrecognition of the caste by the Indian gov't provides a convenient pretext for the gov't to ignore the real seat of this conflict. Hindu higher castes resisting the self liberation of the Dalits in Christianity.

    "We must rid ourselves once and for all of the Quaker-Papist babble about the sanctity of human life."  --Leon Trotsky
  • Re: So hindus like the forced conversions too.....
     Reply #11 - October 20, 2008, 10:25 AM

    Hindu Extremism is one od the very serious danger India is facing. What they are doing with innocent converted Christians is clearly wrong and terrible.

    If low caste people, converts to Christianity and gets a social status. I am all for it. They are innocent people. I saw burnt face of a 6 year old, that was very saddening.

     However, it is very naive to believe that missionary institutes working there are completely flawless. They do coerce people to convert by means for financial assistant, health care and education. Theoritically help and aid ahould be available to all who are in need. However, sometimes this Christian charities are available only to those who convert. At least, I can say these Christian institutes are opportunistic.

    Some Missionaries there are trying very hard for number game.  They have the bible which shows saree clad Mary and turban clad Joseph to appeal Hindus.
    Maoist has denied role in murder of Hindu leader Lakshmanananda Saraswati. The culprits held don't have links with Maoist. It is open secret that few christian groups do support extremism. Hindu leader was killed on day of a Hindu festival along with 5 of his disciples. Missionaries there enjoy converting people. However, if a Hindu leader started doing the same thing, they did not like it.


    Once again, Hindu extremism should not be tolerated. I feel, organizations like VHP, Bajrang dal etc. should be declared as militant organization. I understand that, there will be many genuine Christian organization working for upliftment of people and I support them in all way. But, I just wanted to give the other side as well.
  • Re: So hindus like the forced conversions too.....
     Reply #12 - October 20, 2008, 11:22 AM

    I agree with what you say but I'd see offers of financial assistance, health care and education as being an inducement, not coercion. What's more, those 3 things are what they should be getting from their own government if their lot is to be genuinely improved, particularly education.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: So hindus like the forced conversions too.....
     Reply #13 - October 20, 2008, 11:40 AM

    I agree with what you say but I'd see offers of financial assistance, health care and education as being an inducement, not coercion. What's more, those 3 things are what they should be getting from their own government if their lot is to be genuinely improved, particularly education.


    Fair point, but if the power is there to withhold those inducements unless you convert, it crosses the line into coercion.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: So hindus like the forced conversions too.....
     Reply #14 - October 20, 2008, 01:27 PM

    I agree with what you say but I'd see offers of financial assistance, health care and education as being an inducement, not coercion. What's more, those 3 things are what they should be getting from their own government if their lot is to be genuinely improved, particularly education.


    Fair point, but if the power is there to withhold those inducements unless you convert, it crosses the line into coercion.

    Absolutely true, especially if you're trying to influence a naive and untutored population. It's also the case that you may enter the attempt in the cynical knowledge that your efforts can only mean eventual GBH for somebody.
    However, it's more benign than the point of a sword. And it's  better than doing nothing about injustice being perpetrated in perpetuity.

    Sorry, don't know what's happened with the quote function but you can figure it out.

    ETA: I sorted it for you.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: So hindus like the forced conversions too.....
     Reply #15 - October 20, 2008, 04:33 PM

    I think this article is spot on on what really happens in india...
    Religion, politics and violence in India


    Quote
    Hong Kong, China — Police uncovered some 20 homemade bombs at the residence of a politician in India’s Kerala state Sunday. The bombs were found wrapped in plastic bags, placed in a bucket and buried in a hole on the property of Vipin Das, a leader of the Hindu nationalist Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh organization. The police said the pungent odor of newly mixed chemicals pervaded the area.

    The RSS is one of India’s mainstream Hindu fundamentalist political parties. It claims a humanist platform aimed at revitalizing the spiritual and moral traditions of India. It requires only basic common sense to understand that humanism and homemade bombs have nothing in common. In the Indian context, however, what is common is the close nexus between violence, religion and politics.

    The RSS is not unusual in mixing this volatile cocktail. Mainstream religions in India – Hindus, Christians and Muslims – are all equally responsible for advocating violence, conniving with politicians and playing politics in India.

    The first to disagree with the above statement would most likely be the Christians. They promote a general image of performing selfless missionary work, charity and endless hours of public service. It is not rare for bishops and other high-ranking Christian leaders to command their followers to take up arms, however. For example, it is common in central Kerala, particularly in Ernakulam district, for churchgoers to carry small weapons when they attend Sunday masses.

    Every year at least two dozen cases of assault are registered against individuals and priests in Ernakulam district alone, usually against fellow believers due to a rift in the church. In order to even enter the cemetery of the Mulanthuruthy Mar Thoman Church a person needs prior permission from the executive magistrate of the district. The court has ordered so because in the past “believers” have tried to desecrate the tombs of their deceased rivals, among other things.

    The parishioners of this church are notorious for having fought each other with weapons during Sunday masses. The parishioners, which include some senior politicians of the state, have rallied behind the two factions that fight literally tooth and nail to gain control of the church’s assets. The politicians and clergy have used each other to help them win their battles.

    As for Hindu fundamentalists, a cursory glance at any Indian newspaper will provide the latest details in the ongoing war sparked by upper-caste Hindu-sponsored violence.

    The Muslim community too is no exception. There are Muslim religious schools in India that preach violence in the name of the Koran. There are Islamist teachers who tell their young students that violence is justified to get rid of the infidels. It is public knowledge that some of the “most wanted” criminals from the north Indian states find safe haven in these madrassas of central Kerala.

    Having said this about the religious institutions, the secular front is not much different. There are secular leaders in India who propagate nothing but violence to attain their political goals. But of course they do stand apart from their fundamentalist religious brethren, because they are led not by religious beliefs practiced in secret beyond the public eye, but by so-called socialist philosophy, which they claim to be preaching to the ordinary villager.

    A meeting held Sunday at Kochi city in Kerala was a typical caricature of what religion and politics are in India. The meeting was organized to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the ordination of Catholicos Baselios Thomas I of the Jacobite Syrian Christian Church. It was attended by the union home minister representing the central government, the chief minister of the state and some important members of his cabinet from the Communist Party, the opposition leader of the state and the former railway minister from the fundamentalist Hindu party. One after the other, everyone who had a chance to speak was eager to talk about national security and the problems posed by religious fundamentalism.

    The media, digital and print, celebrated the occasion with full color pictures and reports of the meeting. In doing this they catered to and satisfied their readers, which they maintain by reporting news about different factions from time to time. Even the mainstream media in India is divided along religious and political lines. Some publishing houses are so dominant that independent and truthful reporting is getting harder and harder to find.

    Of course one could view such a gathering as a symbol of political and religious harmony. But for those who know India well, the picture is clear – at the end of the day they are all birds of the same feather, and their empty words mean nothing much.

    --

    (Bijo Francis is a human rights lawyer currently working with the Asian Legal Resource Center in Hong Kong. He is responsible for the South Asia desk at the center. Mr. Francis has practiced law for more than a decade and holds an advanced master's degree in human rights law.)



    I was not blessed with the ability to have blind faith. I cant beleive something just because someone says its true.
  • Re: So hindus like the forced conversions too.....
     Reply #16 - October 21, 2008, 05:34 PM

    I agree with what you say but I'd see offers of financial assistance, health care and education as being an inducement, not coercion. What's more, those 3 things are what they should be getting from their own government if their lot is to be genuinely improved, particularly education.


    Fair point, but if the power is there to withhold those inducements unless you convert, it crosses the line into coercion.

    Absolutely true, especially if you're trying to influence a naive and untutored population. It's also the case that you may enter the attempt in the cynical knowledge that your efforts can only mean eventual GBH for somebody.
    However, it's more benign than the point of a sword. And it's  better than doing nothing about injustice being perpetrated in perpetuity.

    Sorry, don't know what's happened with the quote function but you can figure it out.



    Both of you gentlemen have made good points and I have to add that the people who have pulled the trigger on the swami and his disciples and the christian missionaries behind them need to be banned along with all fundamental religious organizations.

    1 more point...somebody needs to fis this quote function
  • Re: So hindus like the forced conversions too.....
     Reply #17 - October 21, 2008, 05:38 PM

    Fixed. Smiley

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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