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 Topic: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?

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  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #60 - November 03, 2008, 09:42 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 03, 2008, 09:23 PM
    The massive generalisation on your part is that your statement implies that all Muslim women suffer everlasting marital rape. Jack has a valid point.


    I was hoping he might work it out for himself, but never mind Wink
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #61 - November 03, 2008, 09:43 PM
    Well given that he seemed to have missed the brick on the footpath I thought perhaps I should point it out.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #62 - November 03, 2008, 09:46 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 03, 2008, 09:43 PM
    Well given that he seemed to have missed the brick on the footpath I thought perhaps I should point it out.




    Bless him.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #63 - November 04, 2008, 08:44 PM
    Oh come on, context, people! What was Mohammed's society like? Unless we know that, we can't say whether he brought change for good or bad.

    As far as I know he (relatively) empowered disempowered people in the same way as Jesus empowered the poor. These religious types were usually spokesmen for the great unwashed masses from whence they derived, before their religions became state sanctioned and part of the machinery of oppression again.

    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. - Bertrand Russell
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #64 - November 04, 2008, 08:53 PM
    Quote from: ladyofshalott on November 04, 2008, 08:44 PM
    Oh come on, context, people! What was Mohammed's society like? Unless we know that, we can't say whether he brought change for good or bad.

    As far as I know he (relatively) empowered disempowered people in the same way as Jesus empowered the poor. These religious types were usually spokesmen for the great unwashed masses from whence they derived, before their religions became state sanctioned and part of the machinery of oppression again.





    Come again?
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #65 - November 04, 2008, 09:00 PM
    But he didn't come from the great unwashed masses. He came from a privileged family of traders IIRC.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #66 - November 04, 2008, 10:40 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 03, 2008, 09:23 PM
    The massive generalisation on your part is that your statement implies that all Muslim women suffer everlasting marital rape. Jack has a valid point.

    Where is it mentioned, if you don't mind me asking?
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #67 - November 04, 2008, 11:16 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on November 04, 2008, 10:40 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 03, 2008, 09:23 PM
    The massive generalisation on your part is that your statement implies that all Muslim women suffer everlasting marital rape. Jack has a valid point.

    Where is it mentioned, if you don't mind me asking?



    Can't you read it yourself?
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #68 - November 04, 2008, 11:16 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on November 04, 2008, 10:40 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 03, 2008, 09:23 PM
    The massive generalisation on your part is that your statement implies that all Muslim women suffer everlasting marital rape. Jack has a valid point.

    Where is it mentioned, if you don't mind me asking?


    Quote from: Zaephon on November 03, 2008, 04:17 PM
    Quote from: ladyofshalott
    I have no reason to like or not like mohammed, but being the kinda guy to make it into history books, I probably would have liked his spirit and non-conformism.

    No reasons at all? 

    Quote from: osmanthus
    They were only supposed to pray, make children and look after the housework.

    And suffer everlasting marital rape, too. No fun without that part.


    Quod erat demonstrandum.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #69 - November 05, 2008, 02:37 AM
    Well based on present day moral standards, Mo wouldn't exactly be my best mate.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #70 - November 05, 2008, 08:35 AM
    Quote from: heartbomb on November 05, 2008, 02:37 AM
    Well based on present day moral standards, Mo wouldn't exactly be my best mate.



    You never know, he might have been the epitome of a new man, sensitive, caring, biggus dickus.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #71 - November 05, 2008, 09:06 AM
    I'm very much looking forward to Zebedee's apology, and if this was the BBC, his resignation. Smiley
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #72 - November 05, 2008, 01:17 PM
    Quote from: Oz
    Quod erat demonstrandum.

    I'm afraid not. With the same train of thought, we might conclude that you think all Muslims confine the legitimate activities of women to praying, making babies, and doing housework only. Does my sentence even mention Muslim women? What a strawman fallacy.

    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #73 - November 05, 2008, 05:41 PM
    Yeah and we were all born yesterday. Wink
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #74 - November 05, 2008, 09:17 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on November 05, 2008, 01:17 PM
    Quote from: Oz
    Quod erat demonstrandum.

    I'm afraid not. With the same train of thought, we might conclude that you think all Muslims confine the legitimate activities of women to praying, making babies, and doing housework only. Does my sentence even mention Muslim women? What a strawman fallacy.

    Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



    So were you claiming Muslim men suffer everlasting marital rape?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #75 - November 05, 2008, 09:29 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 05, 2008, 09:17 PM
    So were you claiming Muslim men suffer everlasting marital rape?

    Were you claiming that ALL Muslims force their wives to stay home, pray, and make babies?
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #76 - November 05, 2008, 09:36 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on November 05, 2008, 09:29 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 05, 2008, 09:17 PM
    So were you claiming Muslim men suffer everlasting marital rape?

    Were you claiming that ALL Muslims force their wives to stay home, pray, and make babies?



    Keep it dignified Zaephon, dear boy, you been caught with your hand in the till, just make a brief aplogetic statement and this will all be forgotten. Afro
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #77 - November 05, 2008, 10:06 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on November 05, 2008, 09:29 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 05, 2008, 09:17 PM
    So were you claiming Muslim men suffer everlasting marital rape?

    Were you claiming that ALL Muslims force their wives to stay home, pray, and make babies?

    So what were you claiming then?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #78 - November 05, 2008, 10:18 PM
    Well, as far as I can see, Osmanthus posted this.....

    Quote from: Os
    They were only supposed to pray, make children and look after the housework.


    To which Zaephon added something like "yeah and get raped by their husbands too".  I have to ask, was Os suggesting that muslim men are all male chauvinist pig slave drivers, who never help with the washing up?  If not, then how is Zaephon's addendum a suggestion that muslims are all wife- rapists to a man?

    I read it as both Os and Z commenting on Muhammed's attitude towards a woman's place in life. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #79 - November 05, 2008, 10:24 PM
    Fair enough.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #80 - November 05, 2008, 10:29 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 05, 2008, 10:06 PM
    Quote from: Zaephon on November 05, 2008, 09:29 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 05, 2008, 09:17 PM
    So were you claiming Muslim men suffer everlasting marital rape?

    Were you claiming that ALL Muslims force their wives to stay home, pray, and make babies?

    So what were you claiming then?

    As I was directly quoting your post, the meaning should have been immediately obvious. I was pointing out that Islamic thinking readily accommodates marital rape, at the expense of its victims. Clearly, this does not mean that

    1. I believe only Muslim women suffer marital rape.
    2. I believe all Muslim women suffer marital rape.

    I think my meaning was pretty straightforward, if Jack did not twist/misinterpret its very obvious meaning. This is getting tedious.
    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #81 - November 05, 2008, 10:35 PM
    Ok, I'll concede the point then.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #82 - November 29, 2008, 12:50 PM
    Quote from: awais on October 16, 2008, 06:20 AM
    Also on seizures, there was the time Muhammad passed out as a kid, and he said Jibreel opened his chest to clean a blemish; the time he passed out at a party (saying it was Allah protecting him from wasting time sinfully, before Islam); and the time he passed out when repairing the Ka'bah (before Islam, said Allah protected him from uncovering his awrah).


    Can I have a reference? I thought the 'purification' actually happened in the cave Mohammed recieved his first revelation. I thought that's what I was taught as a kid. I'm reluctant, as of now, to reject the interpretation I gave of these siezures.

    Nevertheless, I would like to add that Ali Sina's 'psychobiograpy' of Mohammed actually diagnoses him with -schizophrenia-, if anything, if you accept his basis by which doing so. It's all speculative, of course, but, applying occam's razor, it identifies delusional aspects of schizophrenia, OCD, pathological narcicism, that has to be the most plausible mental health issue involved, and it occurs so much in religious experience that it is hard to neglect, being more frequent in epileptic patients than it is in others. AS can't be any kind of mental health pofessional on the basis of his effort (I managed to flick through without giving him any money). . The diagnostic errors are too amateur. I also think there is good evidence that Mohammed was malnourished, and perhaps starved himself intentionally as a shamanic/intellectual tool.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #83 - November 29, 2008, 01:11 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on October 15, 2008, 04:20 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on October 15, 2008, 07:53 AM
    Do you believe that Mohammed genuinelly believed he was recieving visions from god and acting accordingly?

    Or do you believe that Mohammed was a charlatan who knew exactly what he was doing and knew no god was speaking to him?


    Please explain why you think the way you do and provide any proofs that have led you to your decision on Mohammed.  Smiley


    I think he genuinely believed he was receiving Gods message. The words in the Qur'an appear to reflect someone who is convinced that these are the words of God revealed to him.



    But the Qu'uran, from what I understand was written during Mohammed's life time but then set out in its present form many years later. (Hitchens: YouTube). If this were the case, could it not have been later imbued with a perspective that he was convinced? Please see the following video:

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=30fDuKCp8Ns


    "If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it" From a letter Einstein wrote in English, dated 24 March 1954.
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #84 - November 29, 2008, 01:18 PM
    The Americans have wonderful terms for people,

    I can only comply,

    Muhammed was an asshole.
    There will be no white flag above our door
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #85 - November 29, 2008, 01:37 PM
    Quote from: henrypage on November 29, 2008, 01:11 PM
    But the Qu'uran, from what I understand was written during Mohammed's life time but then set out in its present form many years later. (Hitchens: YouTube). If this were the case, could it not have been later imbued with a perspective that he was convinced? Please see the following video:


    It's possible but there is no hard evidence for that.

    The differences that we do know about are relatively minor, such as Maliki yawmideen instead of Maaliki yawmideen - in other words differences that appear to be the result of an - as yet - unstandardized script, inflection, long/short vowels or scribal error etc...

    These differences are not enough to change the meaning in such a major way that there would be a noticeable difference in meaning, style or perspective.

  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #86 - November 29, 2008, 01:50 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 29, 2008, 01:37 PM
    Quote from: henrypage on November 29, 2008, 01:11 PM
    But the Qu'uran, from what I understand was written during Mohammed's life time but then set out in its present form many years later. (Hitchens: YouTube). If this were the case, could it not have been later imbued with a perspective that he was convinced? Please see the following video:


    There is no evidence to suggest that the Qur'an we have today differed in any significant way to the one Muhammad "received".

    The differences that exist are relatively minor, such as Maliki yawmideen instead of Maaliki yawmideen - in other words differences that appear to be the result of an - as yet - unstandardized script, inflection, long/short vowels or scribal error etc...

    The differences are not enough to change the meaning in such a major way that there would be a noticeable difference in meaning, style or perspective.





    I disagree.

    Al-Qur'an, (or the Koran) as we have come to know it, was canonized by Uthmann.

    It was originally written in Kufic script, which has no diacritical marks.  Which is why

    we cannot ascertain the original meanings.

    Both the Islamic texts and the early "Gospel" writings were written in such a matter.

    This is why we look into this in a gerneral scientific manner rather than a philological

    field to determine what they say.
    There will be no white flag above our door
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #87 - November 29, 2008, 01:57 PM
    Quote from: Charles on November 29, 2008, 01:50 PM
    It was originally written in Kufic script, which has no diacritical marks.  Which is why

    we cannot ascertain the original meanings.


    You are right that the Qur'an was written without diacritical markings, but you are wrong that this would mean it could not be understood.


  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #88 - November 30, 2008, 04:01 AM
    Quote from: panoptic on November 29, 2008, 12:50 PM
    Can I have a reference? I thought the 'purification' actually happened in the cave Mohammed recieved his first revelation. I thought that's what I was taught as a kid. I'm reluctant, as of now, to reject the interpretation I gave of these siezures.


    I still am, actually, but I remember that story now.
    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
     Reply #89 - November 30, 2008, 06:51 AM
    Quote from: panoptic on November 29, 2008, 12:50 PM
    Quote from: awais on October 16, 2008, 06:20 AM
    Also on seizures, there was the time Muhammad passed out as a kid, and he said Jibreel opened his chest to clean a blemish; the time he passed out at a party (saying it was Allah protecting him from wasting time sinfully, before Islam); and the time he passed out when repairing the Ka'bah (before Islam, said Allah protected him from uncovering his awrah).


    Can I have a reference? I thought the 'purification' actually happened in the cave Mohammed recieved his first revelation. I thought that's what I was taught as a kid. I'm reluctant, as of now, to reject the interpretation I gave of these siezures.

    Nevertheless, I would like to add that Ali Sina's 'psychobiograpy' of Mohammed actually diagnoses him with -schizophrenia-, if anything, if you accept his basis by which doing so. It's all speculative, of course, but, applying occam's razor, it identifies delusional aspects of schizophrenia, OCD, pathological narcicism, that has to be the most plausible mental health issue involved, and it occurs so much in religious experience that it is hard to neglect, being more frequent in epileptic patients than it is in others. AS can't be any kind of mental health pofessional on the basis of his effort (I managed to flick through without giving him any money). . The diagnostic errors are too amateur. I also think there is good evidence that Mohammed was malnourished, and perhaps starved himself intentionally as a shamanic/intellectual tool.


    Very good points. It is possible that he suffered from schizophrenia, but IMO, I think Muhammad made the whole thing up. When I was first studying Islam, as soon as I read the story about the Night Journey and the horse he rode to the 7 heavens, i came to the conclusion that he made the entire thing up and fooled his followers. He also cheated on his wives, raided caravans, Slaughtered Jewish tribes such as the Jews of Khaybar, and of course, he always got 20% of the share of booty. Another reason why I think he made it up is because he ALWAYS got a revelation when he wanted something or if he wanted to justify a certain thing.
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
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