As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?

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As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
Reply #120 - November 03, 2013, 07:24 AM

Quote from: Doubting Tomas on November 02, 2013, 08:17 PM
(unless your Karen Armstrong or some clueless leftest)

I have read Karen Armstrong's books on Mohammed, to be fair to her she does not write anything that is not true however she often skips the morally questionable actions of Mohammed and when she does mention them due to them being a significant event in his life she spends at least a page reminding the reader that it was a different time, it was normal back then etc, if I didn't know any better I would think it was written by a Muslim. She seems to have a big crush on Mohammed and wants everyone to share her view.
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Reply #121 - November 03, 2013, 09:12 AM

Quote from: monstart on November 03, 2013, 07:24 AM
I have read Karen Armstrong's books on Mohammed, to be fair to her she does not write anything that is not true however she often skips the morally questionable actions of Mohammed and when she does mention them due to them being a significant event in his life she spends at least a page reminding the reader that it was a different time, it was normal back then etc, if I didn't know any better I would think it was written by a Muslim. She seems to have a big crush on Mohammed .............

well she is epileptic and Prophet material.. She has crush on everything and every one, Even she has has crush on her critiques. In Her little booklet She gets confused facts with fiction in many many places..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQPnThYu2Zs

It is Ok to be a patient of some mental disorders., people can survive and contribute to the society that they are living-in with such mental disorders . But problem comes when you or YOUR FOLLOWERS defend your epileptic words that you write as the facts of history and then propagate them around the globe. That is a problem. I have NO problem with her books or for that matter any books as long as I have freedom to criticize them.

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Reply #122 - November 13, 2013, 05:13 AM

After 5 pages, I don't know if anyone is interested anymore but here are my two cents about the person Muhammad.

Even as a Muslim I didn't really have that kind of love towards Muhammad as a "good" Muslim should have. Especially when confronted with morally dubious facts. I mean, I love my kid more than anything, and I would certainly disobey Muhammad if he told me to marry her off to a retarded midget (story about Julaybib). But now, after spending the last 6 months or so of my life as an apostate, I have come to actually loath the guy. I mean, could you have any positive feelings about the guy who ordered mass rape and mass murder, promoted sex slavery and actually had at least two himself, obviously hated women, murdered and tore families apart and even married a child and rubbed his dick between her thighs when she was still too small to be penetrated (according to hadith).

Did he believe to be a real prophet? Both yes and no, I don't know. According to Islamic sources (how reliable are they really, one could ask), he was obviously a spiritual guy. People liked him. But it is also obvious from the Islamic sources that he changed the revelation quite a bit everytime it suited the situation. He was very opportinistic. When you observe other "prophets", for example like that Moon guy in South Korea, they seem fairly "convinced". They have to be in order to get other idiots to follow them. I guess Muhammad was no different.

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Reply #123 - November 13, 2013, 04:40 PM

I think even if he didn't think he was at the beginning, he definitely believed he was by the end. Have you ever seen the study on the pscyhology of wealth?

Here is a link to the video: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/jan-june13/makingsense_06-21.html

I believe the underlying pinciples in this study imply how gaining power in whatever form corrupts a human. Applied to Mo: As he began to gain in power as the leader of Islam, he grew in agression and entitlement - evident by the fact that his powerless Meccan period is much more idealistic & wholesome than the Medina period. That kind of growing entitlement I think would lead to a genuine belief you are the last prophet.

It's not hard to make decisions once you know what your values are.
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Reply #124 - November 13, 2013, 04:46 PM

I think whoever wants to gain power and control other people lives, has some mental issues
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Reply #125 - November 13, 2013, 04:51 PM

What I find amazing is that muslims believe he was completely ignorant of the jewish and christian religions. I only found out about this a few months ago, couldn't believe it. His home was a huge trading route, the Roman Empire, which was basically on his doorstep and a huge source of trade had christianity as it's official religion, and I'm fairly certain that after Gabriel visited him (as the story goes) he went to his uncle to ask about this shit because his uncle knew about the jewish/christian beliefs.

Seriously, I just recently learned about this bit of theology. Didn't know the stories of the previous abrahamic faiths, give me a break.

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Reply #126 - November 14, 2013, 06:41 AM

@Quod Sum Eris

Hhhh... Yeah, I know. He was a well known merchant that run his wife´s buisness along one of the more famous trade routes during his time, and had an in-law who was a Christian monk and let us not forget the neighbouring Jewish tribes that were spread out around the peninsula. But he knew nothing about anything... that is why the Quran has so many "scientific facts" that just happen to be the same as ancient Greek findings, including the faulty facts. LOL.

By the way, thanks for the link @lerhodora, it will be interesting reading it! Always wondered if Muhammad really was the ascetic poor guy they trie to portray him to be, since he recieved 20 % of all the war booty. Where did all that money go?

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Reply #127 - November 14, 2013, 06:52 AM

Quote from: Cornflower on November 14, 2013, 06:41 AM
@Quod Sum Eris

Always wondered if Muhammad really was the ascetic poor guy they trie to portray him to be, since he recieved 20 % of all the war booty. Where did all that money go?

Expenses.
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Reply #128 - November 14, 2013, 07:23 AM

Yeah, having 11 wives and two concubines isn't cheap

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Reply #129 - November 14, 2013, 10:51 AM

How poor can one be that is viewed as a prophet with thousands of followers? If he needed food a follower would provide it. The same can be applied to any material need. Take the Pope position for example. The person in question can be poor but the institution he belongs to is rich. His material needs never have to be paid for from his own pocket.
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Reply #130 - November 15, 2013, 08:39 PM

@Quod Sum Eris

I know! I was floored by that new evidence as well. He is always painted as this illiterate humble dude in the middle of no where desert - he couldn't have possibly known anything about anything. Yet then you're told he used to accompany his uncle and grandfather on trading trips to syria since he was very young. Like he didn't learn a thing or two on all those trips about other religions and the science at the time. Like somehow being illiterate means you can't possibly attain knowledge just by talking to people?

@bogart

Very good point. With his material needs always being met by others, that is a kind of "wealth" in power surely corrupted him.

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Reply #131 - November 15, 2013, 08:59 PM

We're talking about a time when reading wasn't the norm. I don't understand these claims that being illiterate means being ignorant.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #132 - November 15, 2013, 09:36 PM

Many structures from antiquity to the renaissance were built by illiterate workers. Various tools were created so they, the workers, could check their work rather than do their own math to double check. Farmers passed down their trade while being illiterate. People could still navigate by the stars and sun without the need of being literate. It is a cop out as we see being illiterate as being ignorant in modern times. Yet as the above examples show the world functioned without some of the most important trades filled by illiterate workers.
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Reply #133 - November 15, 2013, 10:18 PM

What bogart said.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #134 - November 16, 2013, 12:13 AM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on November 13, 2013, 04:51 PM
What I find amazing is that muslims believe he was completely ignorant of the jewish and christian religions. I only found out about this a few months ago, couldn't believe it. His home was a huge trading route, the Roman Empire, which was basically on his doorstep and a huge source of trade had christianity as it's official religion, and I'm fairly certain that after Gabriel visited him (as the story goes) he went to his uncle to ask about this shit because his uncle knew about the jewish/christian beliefs.

Seriously, I just recently learned about this bit of theology. Didn't know the stories of the previous abrahamic faiths, give me a break.

Never heard that bit. As far as I was raised into it, it was a well-known fact that he was aware of the other Abrahamic and pagan religions alike. It's even in the teachings that they are supposed to be the brothers and sisters of Muslims and are supposed to be treated with respect/mercy because basically they all worship the same god. You are even taught which "prophet" founded each of the Abrahamic religions and what holy text they brought to the people.

Not. aware. my. ass.

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Reply #135 - November 16, 2013, 05:06 AM

For example look at Qur'an 5:32. He know enough about the religion to use the verse but not enough to realize it was commentary on the Talmed by a human but not the word of God. Opps
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Reply #136 - November 16, 2013, 12:14 PM

My opinion on the man is that he never existed in the first place. Just like Jesus. Those characters were probably based on real people, but the people that we know them to be now aren't who they actually were.

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Reply #137 - November 16, 2013, 12:36 PM

I've heard that a lot recently, but what are the arguments behind such a claim?

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Reply #138 - November 16, 2013, 01:24 PM

Quote
SO WHAT ARE THE MAIN arguments against the historicity of the traditional Islamic accounts of Muhammad's life and the subsequent rise of Islam through the Arab conquests?

To begin with, contemporary non-Muslim sources of the 7th century do not corroborate the canonical story. For example, the Doctrina Jacobi (a document dating to 634-40 CE and probably written by a Christian living in Palestine; p. 20), an account of the Arab conquest of Jerusalem by Sophronius -- the patriarch who is said to have surrendered the city in 637 -- and a letter written in 647 by the patriarch of Seleucia make no reference to the Arab conquerors as Muslims, or show any awareness of a religion called Islam.

The earliest account that can reliably be taken to refer to Muhammad is a chronicle by the Armenian bishop Sebeos, dating either to the 660s or 670s but containing material that sharply diverges from the traditional Islamic accounts: thus he has Muhammad "insisting on the Jews' right to the Holy Land -- even if in the context of claiming that land for the Ishmaelites, acting in conjunction with the Jews" (p. 32).

Only by around 730 CE, nearly one hundred years after Muhammad's death in 632 CE according to the canonical story, do we see an account by John of Damascus make detailed reference to parts of the Qur'an, but even then he does not name the Qur'an or allude to the existence of a complete holy book for those he calls "Hagarians," "Ishmaelites" or "Saracens" (but not Muslims).

Instead, we have reference to Qur'anic chapter titles like "The Women" (this is the fourth Sura of the Qur'an today), implying that he was drawing on fragments of text that were later incorporated into the Qur'an.

Arabic epigraphic evidence from the 7th century similarly fails to validate the canonical account. An inscription attributed to the first Umayyad caliph -- Muawiya -- in 677 or 678 CE makes reference to belief in God but gives no indication of belief in Muhammad as his messenger or the Qur'an as revealed scripture.

On coins from this period, we do find the word "Muhammad" inscribed, but curiously the inscription comes under kingly figures bearing a cross, a symbol of Christianity that is totally antithetical to traditional Islam (pp. 43-4).

Bearing in mind that "Muhammad" can also mean "the chosen/praised one," the coins could well be conveying the idea that the ruler is praised or chosen in God's name (p. 45). Alternatively, they could be referring to Jesus -- at a time when the religion of the Arab conquerors was still a vague monotheism -- or a proto-Muhammad figure still very much unlike the man depicted in the traditional accounts of his life. Even the inscriptions on the Dome of the Rock -- completed in 691 CE and often thought to be the first elaborations on traditional Islamic theology -- could be referring to Jesus, explaining how he ("Muhammad") is a mere messenger and not divine as orthodox Christianity held (pp. 56-7).

IT IS ONLY TOWARDS the middle of the 8th century (735 CE onwards) that we begin to see very clear epigraphic evidence referring to Muhammad as we know him from the Ahadith (plural of hadith) and Sira (pp. 61-2). This observation leads nicely to an examination of the reliability of biographical material from the Ahadith and Sira concerning the sunna (i.e. example) of Muhammad. The centrality of the Ahadith and Sira in interpreting various Qur'anic verses, whose meaning would otherwise be entirely obscure, cannot be overstated.

However, as Spencer points out, it is notable that the invocation of Muhammad's example begins with the same caliph who had the Dome of the Rock built and issued the first coins invoking Muhammad as the Prophet of God: Abd al-Malik (p. 69), whose successors would do likewise....

http://spectator.org/articles/35455/search-muhammad

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Reply #139 - November 16, 2013, 01:55 PM

Quote from: lerhodora on November 13, 2013, 04:40 PM
I think even if he didn't think he was at the beginning, he definitely believed he was by the end. Have you ever seen the study on the pscyhology of wealth?

Here is a link to the video: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/jan-june13/makingsense_06-21.html

I believe the underlying pinciples in this study imply how gaining power in whatever form corrupts a human. Applied to Mo: As he began to gain in power as the leader of Islam, he grew in agression and entitlement - evident by the fact that his powerless Meccan period is much more idealistic & wholesome than the Medina period. That kind of growing entitlement I think would lead to a genuine belief you are the last prophet.

This is interesting. I have heard the same said of Rumi, in regards to greed and power. As a child, I was struck by Frank Herbert explaining that "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." in Dune.

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Reply #140 - November 16, 2013, 05:15 PM

Quote from: bogart on November 16, 2013, 05:06 AM
For example look at Qur'an 5:32. He know enough about the religion to use the verse but not enough to realize it was commentary on the Talmed by a human but not the word of God. Opps

That's interesting. Do you have a link to the commentary?

What irks me about the ayah is that it's prefaced with "مِنْ أَجْلِ ذَٰلِكَ كَتَبْنَا عَلَىٰ بَنِىٓ إِسْرَٰٓءِيلَ" - as if this rule was meant for them in their time but might be different now.

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Reply #141 - November 17, 2013, 03:27 AM

Quote
Quote from: movingfeet on November 16, 2013, 12:14 PM
My opinion on the man is that he never existed in the first place. Just like Jesus. Those characters were probably based on real people, but the people that we know them to be now aren't who they actually were.

Quote from: Cornflower on November 16, 2013, 12:36 PM
I've heard that a lot recently, but what are the arguments behind such a claim?

There are plenty of tell tail signs in Quran., Hadith, and Islamic history Such person "Muhammad"described in "Islam" DID NOT EXIST Cornflower. To start with it appears initial alleged verses of Quran were scribbled for entirely different purpose, and that is "To QUESTION JESUS IS SON OF GOD" And this must have started by some Jewish sect of Arabian peninsula,

Quran says in innumerable verses questioning that New testament story. That is how it started And later it appears it went in different direction with some Bedouin feudal along with smart rascals adding more and more nonsense for politician/personal/loot/booty ulterior motives. Islam is like AMRIKA HAND BALL GAME(they call it as foot ball) Some one starts running with ball and some one else steals the ball to score against the guy who had the ball in the first place.

So present Muhammad of Islam is NOT one personalty but "Multiple personalities". it could be even different persons. It is clear Muhammad did NOT write Quran., it is put together 20 or 30 years after alleged death of Prophet of Islam. This is what we have from early Islam

Quote
Alleged life of Muhammad .. Prophet of Islam

571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
580: Death of Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet.
583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija.
605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.
610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.
614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
621: First pledge at Aqaba.
622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
623: Nakhla expedition.
624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
632: Death of the Holy Prophet. Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.

633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq. Battles of Kazima, Mazar, Walaja, Ulleis, Hirah, Anbar, Ein at tamr, Daumatul Jandal and Firaz.
634: Battles of Basra, Damascus and Ajnadin. Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. Battles of Namaraq and Saqatia.
635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
638: Conquest of Jazirah.
639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan.Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
645: Campaigns in Fats.
646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
652: Discontentment and disaffection against the rule of Hadrat Othman.
656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
657: Hadrat Ali shifts the capital from Madina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. Arbitration proceedings at Daumaut ul Jandal.
658: Battle of Nahrawan.
659: Conquest of Egypt by Mu'awiyah.
660: Hadrat Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus.
661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.

So briefly

Muhammad died in the year of 632, and rest of his father in-laws.. son-in-laws.. grand sons were killed by those Arabian pagans who allegedly converted in to Islam.

Abu Bakr, Father in-Law of Muhammad becomes Caliph Abu Bakr Died in the year 634

Umar Farooq another Father in-law of Muhammad becomes caliph Umar Farooq was killed in the year 644

Othman the Son in-law of Muhammad becomes the Caliph Othman was killed in the year 656

Ali 2nd Son-In law of Muhammad becomes the Caliph Ali was killed in the year 661

and Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph of Islamic Society..

That is the life of early Islam. And with in 100 years "Islam ran through across Arabian peninsula like a wild fire and destroyed anything any one any culture, any religion that questioned it. The only way to live there was by being Dhimmi and paying Jizya tax..

So what we have in early Islamic history is, what this guy Mu'awiyah and his clan collected stories. Now with that time line Cornflower it is for you to inquire/collect historical material on YEAR by YEAR history of Islam of that time from Muslims and Non-Muslim historians .. So I am going to wait to read your posts on that subject mean while let me have some fun with these tubes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UUQ7iLly8w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbQ36jJLP0Y

Dawkins is stunned and stoned by that fool..

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Reply #142 - November 17, 2013, 06:06 AM

Right. What yeezevee said. But it's also a matter of logic. Dude existed more than just a couple centuries ago. Islam spread all over North Africa, the Middle East, a good deal of Asia, and was threatening to overrun Europe (courtesy of the Turks). That's a lot of cultures and peoples for a religion to pass through. The text, before the Turks decided on creating a standard for all the religious texts, had many variations...without a doubt. That's also aside from the fact that the most we know of the man comes from the hadith which none are written by the guy, instead his followers wrote stories about his dealings and speeches, which could have been altered for all we know.

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Reply #143 - November 18, 2013, 10:50 AM

When it comes to leadership(military wise), he is a good one, its not an easy task to unify the whole meccan tribes and tribes from madina into one military unit,not to mentioned how he conquered many cities in middle east before he died. To me he is a smart Arab warlord and you don't expect these types to have morals so there is no essence of calling him pedophile, misogynist,rapist and whatnot anyway, if I'm going to judge Mohammed based on that then I have read ones that are worse than him.

Yet, I can understand the need to criticize him seeing how muslims romanticize and idolize him to the point of irking us. I still curse him in my head whenever my mum extol his virtues because it irks me.

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Reply #144 - November 18, 2013, 11:20 AM

Quote from: froclais on November 16, 2013, 05:15 PM
That's interesting. Do you have a link to the commentary?

What irks me about the ayah is that it's prefaced with "مِنْ أَجْلِ ذَٰلِكَ كَتَبْنَا عَلَىٰ بَنِىٓ إِسْرَٰٓءِيلَ" - as if this rule was meant for them in their time but might be different now.

Babylonian:

http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_37.html
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Talmud/sanhedrin4.html
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Mishnah/Seder_Nezikin/Tractate_Sanhedrin/Chapter_4/5
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/b/r/r4604.htm Hebrew if you want to use a lexicon

It is also found in the Jerusalem Talmud, Sanhedrin 4:1 (22a), but I am having issues finding a link which you can use. The university's database is restricted to students
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As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
Reply #145 - November 18, 2013, 11:30 AM

The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam..

On that subject., A careful look in to Dr. Patricia Crone will be very useful.. She has studied/researched/published extensively on that subject And she wrote plenty of books on Islam

In this tube she speaks on Islam..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyQt1bCnDm4

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- ExMuslimVlogGuy
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As an ex muslim what are your views on Mohammed now?
Reply #146 - December 06, 2015, 06:25 AM

nice

"If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
"Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
"Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
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