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 Topic: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?

 (Read 32745 times)
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  • "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     OP - October 08, 2008, 08:52 PM

    While browsing through Google News, I have stumbled upon this interesting piece:

    Quote
    The 'Eurabia' myth deserves a debunking

    DOUG SAUNDERS

    September 20, 2008 at 1:57 AM EDT

    LONDON — There is Europe and there is “Europe,” the fantasy kingdom wished into being by North American ideologues to turn their silly ideas into action movies.

    Once upon a time, this pretend continent was the left's dollhouse, a land where high government spending supposedly led to all manner of social good – so long as you avoided noting that Germany has fewer child-care spaces than the U.S., France has the lowest rate of unionization in the West, Italy's hospitals are filthy and ill-run and most of the continent's spending goes to the already well-off.

    It is conservatives who fabricate a mythic “Europe” to serve their ends. In this scenario, a lazy, culturally exhausted atheist society has stopped having babies and is being overwhelmed by baby-booming Muslim hordes that are on the verge of becoming a majority and imposing sharia law and Islamist government on the continent.

    The champion of this “Eurabia” myth is Canadian Mark Steyn, who was once one of the world's best writers on musical theatre.

     Mr. Steyn's argument is, as any serious demographer will tell you, completely false. I've avoided countering it because he has been the subject of a ridiculous hate-speech complaint before a number of Canadian human-rights tribunals. As a result, he deserved all of our support: The right to express hatred of people, ideas, groups or communities is fundamental and important.

    Now that this is behind us – I hope – we can turn to the article, titled The Future Belongs to Islam. It is based on three mythic claims about Europe:

    1. The Islamic baby boom. The great sine qua non of Mr. Steyn's argument is the idea that Muslims have more children than the rest of us. His article is based on a claim he has made repeatedly, including in a bestselling book, that Europe will have a plurality of Muslims, perhaps 40 per cent of the population, by 2020.

    This number appears to have been plucked from space. Here's the reality, which you can easily look up: Slightly more than 4 per cent of Europe's population is “Muslim,” as defined by demographers (though about 80 per cent of these people are not religiously observant, so they are better defined as secular citizens who have escaped religious nations).

    It is possible, though not certain, that this number could rise to 6 per cent by 2020. If current immigration and birth rates remain the same, it could even rise to 10 per cent within 100 years.

    But it won't, because “Muslims” don't actually have more babies than other populations do under the same circumstances. The declining population-growth rates that will lead Europe to a falling overall population in seven years – as I documented here two weeks ago – are not confined to native populations. In fact, immigrants from Muslim countries are experiencing a faster drop in reproduction rates than the larger European population.

    A recent study, Religiousness and Fertility among European Muslims, by demographers Charles Westoff and Tomas Frejka, documents this. Populations need to have 2.1 children per family to keep from shrinking. Among Turks in Germany – one of the longest-standing Muslim immigrant populations in Europe – the rate has fallen to 1.9 children from 4.4 in 1970. Turks in Switzerland also have 1.9, while those in the Netherlands have 1.6, fewer than white British people do. Muslim women in France have 2.2 children, barely more than non-Muslim women there, and that number is falling.

    Justin Vaisse of France's Foreign Ministry has shown that fertility rates among immigrant populations (wherever they're from) fall to the same levels as the host country within two generations. In Europe's long-standing Muslim-majority countries of Albania and Kosovo, fertility rates are 1.8 and populations are shrinking. Religious faith often acts as a prophylactic: In revolutionary Iran, rates have plunged to less than 2.1 from almost 6 in the 1980s. Wherever people are educated and prosperous, fertility falls to the same low level.

    2. The takeover of lazy, secular, social-democratic Europe. This is Mr. Steyn's second key pitch: that the decline of religious belief and the rise of the welfare state and multiculturalism have led Europeans to have fewer babies and to commit cultural suicide, capitulating to Islam.

    A proper visit to Europe – all of it – would quickly reveal the flaw in this argument.

    In the countries with the lowest fertility rates and the fastest-shrinking populations, notably Poland and Italy, what will strike you is the number of churches, and their political influence.

    These also happen to be the most religiously observant countries in Europe. And, it should be noted, the ones with governments the furthest from welfare-state social democracy.

    Where are the highest native-born fertility rates, the ones that approach population-increase levels? In the countries with the least religion and the most social democracy and multiculturalism.

    “In Europe, the national populations with the highest cohort fertility rates tend to be the northern and western European ones, where secularization is most advanced,” Canadian demographer Randy McDonald wrote. “More religious and conservative societies elsewhere in Europe fare relatively poorly.”

    3. The threat to “Christian Europe.” I agree with Mr. Steyn on one point: Islamic faith is bad for people, and political Islam is a threat that deserves to be likened to fascism. But, unlike him, I realize that, as threats go, it's up there with the neo-Nazi threat to England.

    Europe once faced a genuine fundamentalist threat, in the face of a declining population. From 1345 to 1750, the continent's population barely grew, and the church, a murderous, terrorist, woman-hating force, seized considerable power. It was not Christian culture, but rather the opposition to this Christian threat, that made Europe great: The Enlightenment not only destroyed the church as a power, but also created the fertility boom.

    If Europeans, under similar demographic distress, were able to fend off a threatening political movement within a faith that was then held by almost 100 per cent of the population, they shouldn't have much to fear from a vanishing movement inside a 4-per-cent minority.

    They have far more to fear from the likes of Mr. Steyn.



    What do you think? Personally, the few statistics available mouse-click away confirmed that indeed the demographic concerns were overblown. Nonetheless, that does not mean we should not speak out against Islam.
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #1 - October 08, 2008, 10:38 PM

    I've long been suspicious of the demographic argument, especially when used by the religious right.  That article rings true to me.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #2 - October 08, 2008, 11:23 PM

    Whoops, forgot to include a link... Tongue
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #3 - October 08, 2008, 11:31 PM

    The stats contradict the reality around me in Toronto, which is closer the where Steyn's opinion comes from. Most of my muslim co-workers and friends, are/were married young with or with an aim to have as many children as possible.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #4 - October 08, 2008, 11:51 PM

    Yes but you're talking about one small area in one country. I think the article makes a lot of sense, assuming the stats are correct ( which I haven't checked yet ). Of course the stats will piss off the "Gates of Vienna" crowd because they don't back up said crowd's preferred position.

    Personally I think Islam should be criticised on grounds other than any supposed demographic threat to Europe. I don't think the European demographic argument is the main concern.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #5 - October 09, 2008, 12:36 AM

    The stats contradict the reality around me in Toronto, which is closer the where Steyn's opinion comes from.


    Your immediate area of work/living is not a reflection of national, nevermind global, statistics.


    Most of my muslim co-workers and friends, are/were married young


    Yes, but you can't use this anecdotal evidence which contradicts statistical claims as a refutation of these claims. When I used to work in a hotel from Aug 2006 to Apr 2007, there were quite a few Muslims who worked there, around my age, none of whom, as far as conversations went, ever mentioned of getting married, nevermind having children(And one of whom I strongly suspect was ex-Muslim). Of course, neither can I use these examples to reflect on the Muslims population anywhere, be it in my country, or the rest of the world.   

    Also, when you say "married young", how young would that be?


    with or with an aim to have as many children as possible.


    Yes, but there is a fine line between having certain aspirations and fulfilling them, as we know. There are socio-economical limitations, after all.
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #6 - October 09, 2008, 12:38 AM



    Personally I think Islam should be criticised on grounds other than any supposed demographic threat to Europe.


    Indeed, the ideological war must continue regardless of demographics.
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #7 - October 09, 2008, 03:43 AM

    If 80% of immigrants from Muslim backgrounds are non-practicing (in Europe), why is apostasy still such a big deal?

    Though it has no bridge,
    The cloud climbs up to heaven;
    It does not seek the aid
    Of Gautama's sutras.

    - Ikkyu
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #8 - October 09, 2008, 03:46 AM

    Two reasons. First, that 80% (assuming it actually is 80%) would mostly see themselves as "bad Muslims" rather than murtads. Second, Europe isn't the whole world. That's the short version anyway.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #9 - October 09, 2008, 06:58 AM

    If 80% of immigrants from Muslim backgrounds are non-practicing (in Europe), why is apostasy still such a big deal?


    Personally I found that to be something he just plucked from the air,  80% of muslims in Europe are non practising?  give me a break.  Roll Eyes


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #10 - October 09, 2008, 08:36 AM

    If 80% of immigrants from Muslim backgrounds are non-practicing (in Europe), why is apostasy still such a big deal?


    Personally I found that to be something he just plucked from the air,  80% of muslims in Europe are non practising?  give me a break.  Roll Eyes




    You got a point here. There is also an errant statements regarding the populations of Kosovo and Albania shrinking. Although the birth rates in Albania are shrinkinglike pretty much in the rest of the Muslim world(Although I am very reluctant counting Albania and Kosovo in the Muslim world), and probably in Kosovo too, the populations of the two countries are still growing.

    However, in the comment section of the article, a poster who goes by the handle of "Will Hoaccio", writes the following:

    Quote from: Will Hoaccio
    The highschool dropout turn DJ turn theater reviewer turn demagogue Mark Steyn is right to be ridiculed. His work only served to highlight his abhorrently poor grasp of even basic demographics and statistics. I am perpetually confused as to whether his comical arguments stem from some basic fear of 'prophet monkeys' (his words), idiocy, or whether it was a more complicated and convoluted form of satire. In any case, he would be better sticking to reviewing Spamalot with his admittedly funny prose and leave the complicated stuff to people who understand the difference between 23% and 23 million, because he certainly doesn't.

    The basic premise of his 'rivers of blood' derivative are that Europe's Islamic population is rapidly out breeding it's secular population which can only lead to problems. The current population of 16m (or ~4%), he 'predicts', will rise to over 200m by 2015. How does he come to this figure? I don't know. It is ludicrous by any number of metrics. It would entail every single fertile woman to have 10 babies in under 10 years. Does anybody seriously think that? Not once does he provide anything remotely approaching demographic evidence to show this.

    The funnier part? Mark Steyn opines that this will surely lead to a ban on Gay marriage, the end of feminism, de-secularization and an end to the European welfare state. His solution? Ban gay marriage, end feminism, de-secularization and an end to the European welfare state. I wish I was making that up. At one point, he sympathizes that radical Islam provides 'a refuge from the slatternly image of post-feminist Western womanhood.' He essentially parrots verbatim the favorite talking points of extremists and simultaneously presents them as problems and solutions. It is a wonderful world where logic doesn't apply.

     

    I haven't read Steyn's book, but if what Will Hoaccio writes about it is true, then Sanders can only aspire to Steyn's level of "plucking from the air".
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #11 - October 09, 2008, 10:04 AM

    Well if Hoaccio isn't making all that up I have to say Steyn sounds totally batshit.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #12 - October 09, 2008, 10:07 AM

    Quote
    The funnier part? Mark Steyn opines that this will surely lead to a ban on Gay marriage, the end of feminism, de-secularization and an end to the European welfare state. His solution? Ban gay marriage, end feminism, de-secularization and an end to the European welfare state.


    Here, this very neatly pin points the reason I've always been suspicious of the demographic argument from the religious right.  Its always used to raise the scary spectre of society turning into....erm.......exactly the same thing they want to turn it into.   idiot2

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #13 - October 09, 2008, 11:55 AM

    Well - I hope he´s right about moslem demographics (the less of them in Europe, the better) - but if the rest of the article is as "intelligent", "unbiassed" and factually true as this crap
    Quote
    Europe once faced a genuine fundamentalist threat, in the face of a declining population. From 1345 to 1750, the continent's population barely grew, and the church, a murderous, terrorist, woman-hating force, seized considerable power. It was not Christian culture, but rather the opposition to this Christian threat, that made Europe great: The Enlightenment not only destroyed the church as a power, but also created the fertility boom.

     I doubt the article is more than wishful thinking and propaganda -drivel no better than right-wing shyt.
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #14 - October 09, 2008, 12:15 PM

    Well - I hope he´s right about moslem demographics (the less of them in Europe, the better) - but if the rest of the article is as "intelligent", "unbiassed" and factually true as this crap
    Quote
    Europe once faced a genuine fundamentalist threat, in the face of a declining population. From 1345 to 1750, the continent's population barely grew, and the church, a murderous, terrorist, woman-hating force, seized considerable power. It was not Christian culture, but rather the opposition to this Christian threat, that made Europe great: The Enlightenment not only destroyed the church as a power, but also created the fertility boom.

     I doubt the article is more than wishful thinking and propaganda -drivel no better than right-wing shyt.

    Ask the Cathars about that. Oh, that's right, you can't. I wonder why............. whistling2

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #15 - October 09, 2008, 12:29 PM

    Well - I hope he´s right about moslem demographics (the less of them in Europe, the better) - but if the rest of the article is as "intelligent", "unbiassed" and factually true as this crap
    Quote
    Europe once faced a genuine fundamentalist threat, in the face of a declining population. From 1345 to 1750, the continent's population barely grew, and the church, a murderous, terrorist, woman-hating force, seized considerable power. It was not Christian culture, but rather the opposition to this Christian threat, that made Europe great: The Enlightenment not only destroyed the church as a power, but also created the fertility boom.

     I doubt the article is more than wishful thinking and propaganda -drivel no better than right-wing shyt.

    Ask the Cathars about that. Oh, that's right, you can't. I wonder why............. whistling2


    I already know you are as prejudiced and bigotted as the author of the article, Os - no need to remind me, thanks anyway. And maybe you ask the thousands of priests and simple faithful who were killed by the french revolutions on the glories of the secular enlightenment... oops, you can´t! And anyway, they were part of the "christian threat", so who gives a rat´s fart anyway, innit?  lipsrsealed
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #16 - October 09, 2008, 12:32 PM

    Pot/kettle.

    ETA: Of course if you're correct about my post you'll be ready and able to explain why the Catholic church was opposed to the Albigensian Crusade.




    I wont hold my breath.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #17 - October 09, 2008, 12:36 PM

    Pot/kettle.

    ETA: Of course if you're correct about my post you'll be ready and able to explain why the Catholic church was opposed to the Albigensian Crusade.




    I wont hold my breath.


    You were the pot in the simile, since it was you starting to bring up the usual ignorant baloney again (and continue to do so). I merely pointed out that the article was ... crap. Which it is.


    I won´t hold my breath about you realising your own blind spots either, though. One doesn´t need religion, to be an ignorant bigot, you know.
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #18 - October 09, 2008, 12:38 PM

     Roll Eyes Like I said, I wont hold my breath.


    Quote
    One doesn´t need religion, to be an ignorant bigot, you know.

    Oh it isn't absolutely essential, but it certainly seems to make it easier.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #19 - October 09, 2008, 01:30 PM

    Quote from: Diotima
    You were the pot in the simile, since it was you starting to bring up the usual ignorant baloney again (and continue to do so). I merely pointed out that the article was ... crap. Which it is.


    Dio, why do you get defensive about the Cathar incident?  I can't honestly say I ever met a Catholic before who did anything other than brush aside that bit of history as par for the course at the time it happened.

    Or maybe this is just an excuse for you and Os to engage in some plait pulling, in which case I will go away, three's a crowd an all that. Tongue 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #20 - October 09, 2008, 01:45 PM

    Quote from: Diotima
    You were the pot in the simile, since it was you starting to bring up the usual ignorant baloney again (and continue to do so). I merely pointed out that the article was ... crap. Which it is.


    Dio, why do you get defensive about the Cathar incident?  I can't honestly say I ever met a Catholic before who did anything other than brush aside that bit of history as par for the course at the time it happened.

    Or maybe this is just an excuse for you and Os to engage in some plait pulling, in which case I will go away, three's a crowd an all that. Tongue 


    Who said I got "defensive" about them? Ask Os - HE brought up  the Cathars. I merely pointed out the fanatical bigotry and ignorance of the article... which, of course, is mirrored in Os´ "defence" of it, by bringing in totally irrelevant cathars. 
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #21 - October 09, 2008, 01:48 PM

    Dio, if the article mentions violence and terrorism on the part of the church, and you call the article shyte because of this, and I then mention a famous instance of violence and terrorism on the part of the church then how, pray tell, does that make me fanatical and bigoted while presumably leaving your favourite source of authority free of any such taint?



    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #22 - October 09, 2008, 01:49 PM

    Quote
    Ask Os - HE brought up  the Cathars. I merely pointed out the fanatical bigotry and ignorance of the article... which, of course, is mirrored in Os´ "defence" of it.


    I know he raised the Cathars, but it was your response of calling his post "ignorant baloney" that I questioned.  Why not just point out that something horrible happened, among many other horrible things that happened at that period of history?

    That's what most Catholics do, I don't get why you're defensive about something that happened so long ago, and virtually no other Catholic gives two hoots about.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #23 - October 09, 2008, 01:50 PM

    Dio, if the article mentions violence and terrorism on the part of the church, and you call the article shyte because of this, and I then mention a famous instance of violence and terrorism on the part of the church then how, pray tell, does that make me fanatical and bigoted while presumably leaving your favourite source of authority free of any such taint?





    If you call that
    Quote
    " Europe once faced a genuine fundamentalist threat, in the face of a declining population. From 1345 to 1750, the continent's population barely grew, and the church, a murderous, terrorist, woman-hating force, seized considerable power. It was not Christian culture, but rather the opposition to this Christian threat, that made Europe great: The Enlightenment not only destroyed the church as a power, but also created the fertility boom."

     anything short of bigotted drivel - not to mention ignorant and a-historical - you are even more of an atheist fundi, than I thought you were. Say hello to SA from me, when you meet him at the next Dawkins-appreciation-and-adulation-society- meeting.
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #24 - October 09, 2008, 01:52 PM

    Quote
    Ask Os - HE brought up  the Cathars. I merely pointed out the fanatical bigotry and ignorance of the article... which, of course, is mirrored in Os´ "defence" of it.


    I know he raised the Cathars, but it was your response of calling his post "ignorant baloney" that I questioned.  Why not just point out that something horrible happened, among many other horrible things that happened at that period of history?

    That's what most Catholics do, I don't get why you're defensive about something that happened so long ago, and virtually no other Catholic gives two hoots about.


    What makes you think I DO give two hoots about the Cathars? I DO give two hoots and more, about the rampant mindles atheist fundamentalism and stupidity. And that´s - unfortunately - happening NOW.
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #25 - October 09, 2008, 01:54 PM

    If I had to be honest I also think that the article is a bit misleading, so therefore as shyte as the right wing loony articles that you read.

    It dismisses the threat of demographics in a very non factual way, I personally think there is a demographic threat IF the current birth rate remains the same.

    IF on the other hand the generation westernisation of muslim families falls under the influence of western birth rate ideals then the threat is non existant.

    Both this article and the right wing "Eurabia by 2050" are based on a lot of IFS and not alot of real facts.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #26 - October 09, 2008, 01:56 PM

    Ho hum. Dio, I know you well enough to know that you'll call any disagreement with your religion "mindless fundamentalism and stupidity".

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #27 - October 09, 2008, 01:56 PM

    Ho hum. I know you well enough to know that you'll call any disagreement with your religion "mindless fundamentalism and stupidity".


    Not really - only the mindlessly fundamentalist and stupid disagreements that are in essence nothing but a distortion of facts to suit an agenda and don´t even deserve the honourable name of "disagreement". Kiss NO serious historian who knows about the importance of christianity to the development of European civilisation (not to mention the fact that the much-applauded "enlightenment" is in fact a completely christian phenomenon) would take anyone seriously, who wrote the crap about the "fundamentalist threat that was christianity" etc. - well, maybe a stalinist, maoist or nazi "historian"...
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #28 - October 09, 2008, 01:57 PM

    Quote
    the rampant mindles atheist fundamentalism and stupidity


    Eh? Huh?  That's one of the least widespread problems facing the world today.  Admittedly not non-existent, but very, very trivial compared to the problems facing us courtesy of religious fundamentalism.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: "The 'Eurabia' myth"-debunked?
     Reply #29 - October 09, 2008, 02:02 PM

    Quote
    the rampant mindles atheist fundamentalism and stupidity


    Eh? Huh?  That's one of the least widespread problems facing the world today.  Admittedly not non-existent, but very, very trivial compared to the problems facing us courtesy of religious fundamentalism.


    yeah, sure. If you say so. Roll Eyes

    Rest assured, I´d tell any of them off, too.  Roll Eyes
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