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 Topic: Manifesto of the Council

 (Read 45927 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Manifesto of the Council
     OP - November 18, 2007, 02:06 PM

    Manifesto of the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain

    We, non-believers, atheists, and ex-Muslims, are establishing or joining the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain to insist that no one be pigeonholed as Muslims with culturally relative rights nor deemed to be represented by regressive Islamic organisations and 'Muslim community leaders'.   

    Those of us who have come forward with our names and photographs represent countless others who are unable or unwilling to do so because of the threats faced by those considered 'apostates' - punishable by death in countries under Islamic law.

    By doing so, we are breaking the taboo that comes with renouncing Islam but also taking a stand for reason, universal rights and values, and secularism.

    Whilst religion or the lack thereof is a private affair, the increasing intervention of and devastation caused by religion and particularly Islam in contemporary society has necessitated our public renunciation and declaration. We represent a majority in Europe and a vast secular and humanist protest movement in countries like Iran.

    Taking the lead from the Central Council of Ex-Muslims in Germany, we demand:

    • Universal rights and equal citizenship for all. We are opposed to cultural relativism and the tolerance of inhuman beliefs, discrimination and abuse in the name of respecting religion or culture.
      Freedom to criticise religion. Prohibition of restrictions on unconditional freedom of criticism and expression using so-called religious 'sanctities'.
      Freedom of religion and atheism.
      Separation of religion from the state and legal and educational system.
      Prohibition of religious customs, rules, ceremonies or activities that are incompatible with or infringe people's rights and freedoms.
      Abolition of all restrictive and repressive cultural and religious customs which hinder and contradict woman's independence, free will and equality. Prohibition of segregation of sexes.
      Prohibition of interference by any authority, family members or relatives, or official authorities in the private lives of women and men and their personal, emotional and sexual relationships and sexuality.
      Protection of children from manipulation and abuse by religion and religious institutions.
      Prohibition of any kind of financial, material or moral support by the state or state institutions to religion and religious activities and institutions.
      Prohibition of all forms of religious intimidation and threats.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #1 - November 22, 2007, 03:39 PM

    Link to Council's website: http://ex-muslim.org.uk/

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #2 - November 23, 2007, 06:56 PM

    For those from FFI you would probaly be familiar with me tread in wich I stated that a significant part of the German council are marxists. But for this tread I will keep myself to constructive critism.

    For this post :

    Quote
    We, non-believers, atheists, and ex-Muslims,


    There is already here an limitation of targetgroup here. I'm willing to accept that non-believers here is used as synoniem for non-muslim, but atheist. Considering the choice of language most people would vieuw that as what it means, namely atheists. Therefore this statement in the beginning limites itsef to a narrow group of apostates from Islam.

    Ifd this council want to represent a broad as possible group of apostates, shouldn't it include those who converted to other religions?

    1939, T.S. Eliot declared: “When a word acquires a universally sacred character . . . , as has today the word democracy, I begin to wonder, whether, by all it attempts to mean, it still means anything at all.”
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #3 - November 23, 2007, 07:01 PM

    No, I think you have misinterpreted that slightly.  She is describing three groups of people, not using three adjectives for the one group.  That's the way I took it up anyway.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #4 - November 23, 2007, 07:09 PM

    No, I think you have misinterpreted that slightly.  She is describing three groups of people, not using three adjectives for the one group.  That's the way I took it up anyway.


    It is possible. But however the setence itself lends itself more to a narrow interpretation then to a more broad one in my eyes. For my barely updated anti-jihadist website part of  the introduction is the follwing :

    Quote
    De Islam is in oorlog met Christenen, Joden, Hindoe’s, Boeddhisten, Atheïsten, Sikhs, Animisten, Heidenen, enz. Kort om gezegd iedereen die geen Mohammedaan is en zich weigert te onderwerpen aan de status van dhimmi.


    I don't think a translation is in order. I had chosen for that website to keep the group as broadly as possible. Even though the pieces on the website are from 99%+ from myself and one edited by me from a friend of mine. And from our disfunctional forum besides those two a crazy hinu I decided no longer to link to.

    1939, T.S. Eliot declared: “When a word acquires a universally sacred character . . . , as has today the word democracy, I begin to wonder, whether, by all it attempts to mean, it still means anything at all.”
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #5 - November 23, 2007, 07:35 PM

    For those from FFI you would probaly be familiar with me tread in wich I stated that a significant part of the German council are marxists. But for this tread I will keep myself to constructive critism.

    For this post :

    There is already here an limitation of targetgroup here. I'm willing to accept that non-believers here is used as synoniem for non-muslim, but atheist. Considering the choice of language most people would view that as what it means, namely atheists. Therefore this statement in the beginning limites itsef to a narrow group of apostates from Islam.

    If this council want to represent a broad as possible group of apostates, shouldn't it include those who converted to other religions?


    I didn't understand it like that.

    I understood it as saying that we are a group of people who some simply call themselves non-believers, others athiests and others Ex-Muslims.

    I agree they could have phrased it a bit clearer.

    I'm not an athiest, nor a Marxist btw - and it never ever entered my mind that I was not welcomed by the Council - and since I have been in touch with Maryam and she knows my views - I can safely say that this group represents any ex-Muslims regardless of whether they have taken another faith or none and any political view or none.

    Smiley

  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #6 - November 23, 2007, 08:08 PM

    I'm not a Marxist myself. In fact I think Marxism per se is as dead as a dodo. Still, if Maryam and others think of themselves as Marxists that's their business. From our dealings with them so far they certainly don't seem to be totalitarian. Nobody here is required to agree with anybody else's religious or political views. If I see someone from the Council online here I'll ask for clarification of the points Vincent raised, or Vincent can ask questions of them himself.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #7 - November 23, 2007, 08:13 PM

    I'm not a Marxist myself. In fact I think Marxism per se is as dead as a dodo. Still, if Maryam and others think of themselves as Marxists that's their business. From our dealings with them so far they certainly don't seem to be totalitarian. Nobody here is required to agree with anybody else's religious or political views. If I see someone from the Council online here I'll ask for clarification of the points Vincent raised, or Vincent can ask questions of them himself.


    Frankly I don't care what politics she follows.

    Seems to me some people are kinda nervy about Reds. Personally I am nervy of ANYONE who takes the right, left OR centre politicians and parties too seriously.

    Grin
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #8 - November 23, 2007, 08:16 PM

    Are you sure that Marxist thing is not an attempt to smear a prominent ex-muslim?  I mean, I don't know anything about her, but look at the way Ayaan Hirsi Ali gets snidely described as a "fraudulent asylum seeker."

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #9 - November 23, 2007, 08:20 PM

    I'm not a Marxist myself. In fact I think Marxism per se is as dead as a dodo. Still, if Maryam and others think of themselves as Marxists that's their business. From our dealings with them so far they certainly don't seem to be totalitarian. Nobody here is required to agree with anybody else's religious or political views. If I see someone from the Council online here I'll ask for clarification of the points Vincent raised, or Vincent can ask questions of them himself.


    Tread in question. And on basis of it I raised certain consenerns. I also never said totalitarian, that is your filling in. Also the article I refered to deals with the German one, not with the britisch one, unles Maryam real is name is Ahadi.

    Orthodox Marxims is hardly a potential force in the short run, what I'm talking about is cultural/Gramscian Marxism.

    1939, T.S. Eliot declared: “When a word acquires a universally sacred character . . . , as has today the word democracy, I begin to wonder, whether, by all it attempts to mean, it still means anything at all.”
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #10 - November 23, 2007, 08:23 PM

    Tread in question. And on basis of it I raised certain consenerns. I also never said totalitarian, that is your filling in. Also the article I refered to deals with the German one, not with the britisch one, unles Maryam real is name is Ahadi.

    Orthodox Marxims is hardly a potential force in the short run, what I'm talking about is cultural/Gramscian Marxism.


    Why does it matter if Maryam is a Marxist, Vincent?
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #11 - November 23, 2007, 08:24 PM

    Why does it matter if Maryam is a Marxist, Vincent?


    What if she were a fascist? (I'm not being overly confrontational, there is a lesson here.)

    "What shall it profit an intellectual [to] acknowledge a simple truth and lose his Weltanschauung?"

    Seeing is not Believing, by Theodore Dalrymple
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #12 - November 23, 2007, 08:25 PM

    What if she were a fascist? (I'm not being overly confrontational, there is a lesson here.)


     I wouldn't want to be part of her movement if she was - I draw a line with 'some' ideologies.
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #13 - November 23, 2007, 08:26 PM

    Are you sure that Marxist thing is not an attempt to smear a prominent ex-muslim?  I mean, I don't know anything about her, but look at the way Ayaan Hirsi Ali gets snidely described as a "fraudulent asylum seeker."


    Could be, but in this case I take my changes. Elsevier is not realy pro-Islam and was the main magazine trough wich Pim Fortuyn publicesed his opionpieces.

    1939, T.S. Eliot declared: “When a word acquires a universally sacred character . . . , as has today the word democracy, I begin to wonder, whether, by all it attempts to mean, it still means anything at all.”
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #14 - November 23, 2007, 08:29 PM

    I wouldn't want to be part of her movement if she was - I draw a line with 'some' ideologies.


    Exactly, that's my point. Communism created more suffering, murdered more innocents, and crushed the human spirit in several continents. And yet people who call themselves Marxists are respected in polite society. Why this is is one of the great mysteries of our time.

    "What shall it profit an intellectual [to] acknowledge a simple truth and lose his Weltanschauung?"

    Seeing is not Believing, by Theodore Dalrymple
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #15 - November 23, 2007, 08:30 PM

    Why does it matter if Maryam is a Marxist, Vincent?


    Depends on how much her stance on this is issue is influenced by her political beliefs.

    1939, T.S. Eliot declared: “When a word acquires a universally sacred character . . . , as has today the word democracy, I begin to wonder, whether, by all it attempts to mean, it still means anything at all.”
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #16 - November 23, 2007, 08:44 PM

    Depends on how much her stance on this is issue is influenced by her political beliefs.


    So long as we ALL keep our personal politics OUT of the work of this council - then there is no problem.

    That goes for the RIGHT as well as for the LEFT.

    Simple!

    Smiley
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #17 - November 23, 2007, 08:57 PM

    So long as we ALL keep our personal politics OUT of the work of this council - then there is no problem.

    That goes for the RIGHT as well as for the LEFT.

    Simple!

    Smiley


    So, to be clear, if a known fascist joins the council and keeps his "personal politics" out of it, it would be acceptable?

    "What shall it profit an intellectual [to] acknowledge a simple truth and lose his Weltanschauung?"

    Seeing is not Believing, by Theodore Dalrymple
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #18 - November 23, 2007, 08:59 PM

    I think Marxism per se is as dead as a dodo.


    I agree - I didn't think anyone bought all that crap anymore.

    When I was a teenager in the 70s I went through a Socialist 'phase' but by 1979 at the ripe old age of 19 I had already realised it was all a load of bollox Grin

    But like I say - it doesn't matter what ppls personal politics are - particularly if one is such a good speaker as Maryam is Smiley
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #19 - November 23, 2007, 09:00 PM

    So, to be clear, if a known fascist joins the council and keeps his "personal politics" out of it, it would be acceptable?


    LOL... you really want to put me on the spot about this... Like I say, I draw the line at 'some' things - fascist being one.
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #20 - November 23, 2007, 09:03 PM

    LOL... you really want to put me on the spot about this... hmmm - to be honest I would have a problem - but don't know how I would handle it until it actually happened.




    I'm putting you in the spot, but only because you got there before others. Alliances with people whose primary objective is political are dangerous--you may get stuck with their bagagge.

    The other point I hope I've been able to convey is that Marxism is a vile ideology, and should not be acceptable in polite society, like Facism isn't.

    "What shall it profit an intellectual [to] acknowledge a simple truth and lose his Weltanschauung?"

    Seeing is not Believing, by Theodore Dalrymple
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #21 - November 23, 2007, 09:07 PM

    I'm putting you in the spot, but only because you got there before others. Alliances with people whose primary objective is political are dangerous--you may get stuck with their bagagge.


    I agree and I believe - and hope - that neither Maryam nor anyone else wants to use the Council to further their personal political agenda.

    If they are then we would have to part company.

    As RL said - we are an issue driven group and personal politics MUST be kept OUT or they should bugger off imho Grin
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #22 - November 23, 2007, 09:10 PM

    I agree - and I believe - and certainly hope - that neither Maryam nor anyone else wants to use the Council to further their personal political agenda.

    If they are then we would have to part company.

    As RL said - we are an issue driven group and personal politics MUST be kept OUT or they should bugger off imho Grin


    Seconded.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #23 - November 23, 2007, 09:11 PM

    I'm putting you in the spot, but only because you got there before others. Alliances with people whose primary objective is political are dangerous--you may get stuck with their bagagge.

    The other point I hope I've been able to convey is that Marxism is a vile ideology, and should not be acceptable in polite society, like Facism isn't.


    And Nazism, and someday I hope, Islamism.
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #24 - November 23, 2007, 09:41 PM

    No, I think you have misinterpreted that slightly.  She is describing three groups of people, not using three adjectives for the one group.  That's the way I took it up anyway.

    Well, since it is taken from the german council, I think it is ment that way. If you want to be a "full" member of the german council, you have to be also atheist, others can join too, but don't get to be "full" members. It is no coincidence that the german council has its forum on an atheistic forum.

    Quote
    Ordentliche Mitglieder können mündige natürliche Personen werden, sofern sie mit folgenden Anforderungen übereinstimmen:
    a) Sie sind religionsfreie, säkular denkende Menschen, die entweder ehemals muslimischen Glaubens waren oder aber aus einem muslimisch geprägten Herkunftsland stammen

    http://www.ex-muslime.de/indexVerein.html

    Full members can be...
    a) They are religionfree, secular thinking humans, who either were of the islamic faith or were born in an islamic country...

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #25 - November 23, 2007, 09:44 PM

    I agree, the council of ex muslims is mostly for those with no religion whatsoever.  I always thought that from the moment I read the manifesto.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #26 - November 23, 2007, 09:46 PM

    If you want to be a "full" member of the german council, you have to be also atheist, others can join too, but don't get to be "full" members.


    Really?

    That sucks  Angry

    I guess some are more equal than others.  Angry

    Well since I am NOT an athiest I can never be a full member!!!!!  Angry Angry Angry

    Screw that!
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #27 - November 23, 2007, 09:50 PM

    That seems very unfair.  However, to play Devils Advocate for a minute, maybe they are worried about their new council being infiltrated by people who will evangelize for other religions.  I remember that documentary about ex-muslims which spoke about a Christian fundie group which actively targets muslims in the UK.


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #28 - November 23, 2007, 09:50 PM

    Really?

    That sucks  Angry

    I guess some are more equal than others.  Angry

    Well since I am NOT an athiest I can never be a full member!!!!!  Angry Angry Angry

    Screw that!


    You are agnostic, I reckon that's acceptable to them.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Manifesto of the Council
     Reply #29 - November 23, 2007, 09:51 PM

    You are agnostic, I reckon that's acceptable to them.

    I think CD is more concerned about whether they are acceptable to him.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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