Al-Qur'an

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- Charles
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Al-Qur'an
OP - September 15, 2008, 04:07 AM

I would like to ask most Muslims a simple question.

If you believe your book is a copy of, "a tablet preserved in Heaven"

then how can you justify Uthman's canonisation.

Uthman and the Islamic scribes arranged the Surahs from the longest to shortest,

which is not what Muahmmed revealed. The earliest verses were from Makhaa

not Medina.

Who gave him the authority to rearrange what was written in heaven?

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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #1 - September 15, 2008, 04:23 AM

I should have added that perhaps some things were omitted and other things added

to suite they're purpose.

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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #2 - September 15, 2008, 11:18 AM

If its from a 'tablet preserved in heaven' then Heaven must be boring, because for me the Quran wasn;t hugely inspirational, apart from a few verses here and there. Like all religious texts practically its a chore to trawl through. Apart from that, why is it God can;t make up his mind about whether 'He' will allow a man to beat his wife or not?

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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #3 - September 15, 2008, 02:18 PM

If I recall correctly, there is a hadith that states that Muhammad instructed the muslims as to how to arrange the verses, and the suwar (surahs) in their order. I'll have to look this up again.

I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #4 - September 16, 2008, 08:38 AM

Quote from: Marmalade-Lady on September 15, 2008, 11:18 AM
If its from a 'tablet preserved in heaven' then Heaven must be boring, because for me the Quran wasn;t hugely inspirational, apart from a few verses here and there. Like all religious texts practically its a chore to trawl through. Apart from that, why is it God can;t make up his mind about whether 'He' will allow a man to beat his wife or not?

Marmalade Lady

The creator made up "his mind" a long time ago.

You don't do this sort of thing.

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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #5 - September 16, 2008, 08:52 AM

Quote from: Charles on September 16, 2008, 08:38 AM
The creator made up "his mind" a long time ago.

Produce evidence.

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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #6 - September 16, 2008, 02:35 PM

Quote from: Charles on September 16, 2008, 08:38 AM
Quote from: Marmalade-Lady on September 15, 2008, 11:18 AM
If its from a 'tablet preserved in heaven' then Heaven must be boring, because for me the Quran wasn;t hugely inspirational, apart from a few verses here and there. Like all religious texts practically its a chore to trawl through. Apart from that, why is it God can;t make up his mind about whether 'He' will allow a man to beat his wife or not?

Marmalade Lady

The creator made up "his mind" a long time ago.

You don't do this sort of thing.

You seem to have a hotline to what he/she/it or they think(s). What's the secret?

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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #7 - September 16, 2008, 03:47 PM

Quote from: Charles on September 15, 2008, 04:23 AM
I should have added that perhaps some things were omitted and other things added

to suite they're purpose.

Hey you forgot about the verses that a "GOAT" ate ?

I was not blessed with the ability to have blind faith. I cant beleive something just because someone says its true.
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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #8 - September 16, 2008, 09:43 PM

Also it should be "to suit their purpose".

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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #9 - October 16, 2008, 01:05 PM

Quote from: awais.x on September 15, 2008, 02:18 PM
If I recall correctly, there is a hadith that states that Muhammad instructed the muslims as to how to arrange the verses, and the suwar (surahs) in their order. I'll have to look this up again.

That's utter crap,

The Prophet, "Salaah salaam" never said anything of the sort.

He did what whatever he wanted to do,

and later justified it by saying he had a "religious experience" - conferred on him by

the Archangel.

Convenient for him, if not for anybody else who disagreed with him.

And that's what he drew upon - ignorance and superstition.

Look at the modern world in the Middle East.

If it wasn't for Europeans finding Oil,

these so called 'Sheiks' would be wandering around with their goats and camels

eking out a life of poverty and retribution against their so called 'neighbours'

Oh, but by the way,

they invaded Europe bringing civilisation.

Whose civilisation?

Like in India with the Turkhi Afghans and later with the Mughals and the cost of

millions of lives - who matters as long as the religion is propogated.

In all my studies of History, I've never seen a greater travesty than what happened

in India. No wonder the British paled into insignificance against such atrocities.

But then we have the Taj Mahal,

We can all go to bed and dream of lovely buildings like this,

without remembering the millions of Hindus, Jains, Buddhists and the like who

suffered and were mercilessly put to do death in the name of Allah.

You talk about looking up Hadith.

I talk about Human beings,

Muslim or otherwise.

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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #10 - October 16, 2008, 01:32 PM

Ok Charles, whatever you say. Breathe in, breathe out; wax on, wax off.

I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #11 - October 16, 2008, 02:07 PM

Quote from: awais.x on October 16, 2008, 01:32 PM
Ok Charles, whatever you say. Breathe in, breathe out; wax on, wax off.

Sorry I came back to your remark so lately - I was looking at the forum.

I'm not quite sure what you mean in your answer, would you elaborate for me please?

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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #12 - October 16, 2008, 02:19 PM

I mean that you seem to be in an angry rant. I don't really get what you're trying to get at. BTW, I found the hadith, I just gotta have the book with me to post it.

I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #13 - October 16, 2008, 02:36 PM

Quote from: awais.x on October 16, 2008, 02:19 PM
I mean that you seem to be in an angry rant. I don't really get what you're trying to get at. BTW, I found the hadith, I just gotta have the book with me to post it.

I don't know what an 'angry rant' means,

If it upsets you or other people reading this then - I apologise - for whatever an 'angry rant might be'.

One of the reasons I dislike Muslims criticising me, is that I spent nearly fifteen (15) years of my life trying to come to grips with Islam.

Unlike others, to me, it proved fruitless.

I woke up one day understanding that I knew nothing new that I had already been brainwashed into believing or doing what people told me to do, albeit their authority to do so.

I walked out of the Masjid and into the light and never looked back.

If I am too satirical or set in my ways about religion, be it Judaism, Islam or anything else, then its only because my mother had what they call a Near Death Experience and what she told me about the life to come is so inconsistent with our teachings and beliefs then it only adds to my anxiety and alcoholism.

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- sojournerlumus
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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #14 - October 16, 2008, 10:52 PM

Charles, don't worry my friend. I've had 3 near death experiences now and believe me there is nothing to be afraid of. On the last occasion, a massive angina attack, I thought almost immediately If this is what it's like, I welcome it, I'm not afraid.
I have no fear of any god or devil or after life. My afterlife resides already in my 2 children, it's their responsibility now what they do with it. If, as looks likely, they decide not to procreate, it will be blessed oblivion and no more treadmill. Admittedly no more laughter too, but in the end it doesn't really matter once you're gone.
This is not a species of nihilism but pure reality.
Enjoy what you've got and be grateful for each new dawn.

Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #15 - October 17, 2008, 07:13 AM

Questions: Why are hadeeths so credible and important to Muslims? Why do Muslims have so much faith in so called 'scholars'? Does the Quran mention hadeeth at all?

I just don't understand why hadeeths are almost as unquestionable as the Quran itself.

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- osmanthus
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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #16 - October 17, 2008, 08:49 AM

Well as I understand it, which may not be very well, the Quran says to follow the example of the prophet but doesn't contain many examples of his behaviour. To rectify this grievous oversight on the part of Allah the ahadith were compiled/invented/rescued from goats or whatever.

I suppose they're important because people want to follow Mohammed's example (although it beats me why they would) and therefore the examples are important to them. Without them they don't have much.

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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #17 - October 17, 2008, 02:42 PM

What's the difference between the Qur'an and Hadeeth? Supposed author. Hadith are just as valid a source of information as Qur'an, just because it's not's "authored by God" doesn't make any difference. If you're not muslim, it should matter even less to you. Unless you were Qur'an only and still carry those tendencies. Qur'an has chain of narrators just like Hadeeth, just not so many people know about it, it's not as air tight as most people think.

I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
- Charles
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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #18 - October 17, 2008, 03:09 PM

Quote from: awais.x on October 17, 2008, 02:42 PM
What's the difference between the Qur'an and Hadeeth? Supposed author. Hadith are just as valid a source of information as Qur'an, just because it's not's "authored by God" doesn't make any difference. If you're not muslim, it should matter even less to you. Unless you were Qur'an only and still carry those tendencies. Qur'an has chain of narrators just like Hadeeth, just not so many people know about it, it's not as air tight as most people think.

Archeological and Scientific studies have proven there was no Exodus as laid down by the Bible or Al-Qur'an.

Yet Muhammed 'recevied' divine verses telling him these events happened.

It's all bullshit.

It's like Noahs Ark,

Kangaroohs and Polar Bears clammering to get a seat before the rains came.

It's total fucking nonsense.

There will be no white flag above our door
- Charles
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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #19 - October 17, 2008, 03:22 PM

Quote from: sojournerlumus on October 16, 2008, 10:52 PM
Charles, don't worry my friend. I've had 3 near death experiences now and believe me there is nothing to be afraid of. On the last occasion, a massive angina attack, I thought almost immediately If this is what it's like, I welcome it, I'm not afraid.
I have no fear of any god or devil or after life. My afterlife resides already in my 2 children, it's their responsibility now what they do with it. If, as looks likely, they decide not to procreate, it will be blessed oblivion and no more treadmill. Admittedly no more laughter too, but in the end it doesn't really matter once you're gone.
This is not a species of nihilism but pure reality.
Enjoy what you've got and be grateful for each new dawn.

Thank you for your reply.

People who have 'crossed over' come back to tell us that our lifestyle and thinking is not in tune with the creator. We haven't learnt about love and helping one an all.

We seem to be to worrying or carrying about material things rather than helping those who are less fortunate.

It'a a problem.

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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #20 - October 17, 2008, 04:05 PM

Quote from: Charles on October 17, 2008, 03:09 PM
Quote from: awais.x on October 17, 2008, 02:42 PM
What's the difference between the Qur'an and Hadeeth? Supposed author. Hadith are just as valid a source of information as Qur'an, just because it's not's "authored by God" doesn't make any difference. If you're not muslim, it should matter even less to you. Unless you were Qur'an only and still carry those tendencies. Qur'an has chain of narrators just like Hadeeth, just not so many people know about it, it's not as air tight as most people think.

Archeological and Scientific studies have proven there was no Exodus as laid down by the Bible or Al-Qur'an.

Yet Muhammed 'recevied' divine verses telling him these events happened.

It's all bullshit.

It's like Noahs Ark,

Kangaroohs and Polar Bears clammering to get a seat before the rains came.

It's total fucking nonsense.

Speaking of Noah's Ark, didn't they (and I can't be more specific on who 'they' are) find some boat in Turkey near Mount Ararat, claiming it is Noah's Ark?
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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #21 - October 17, 2008, 06:50 PM

Quote from: heartbomb on October 17, 2008, 04:05 PM
Quote from: Charles on October 17, 2008, 03:09 PM
Quote from: awais.x on October 17, 2008, 02:42 PM
What's the difference between the Qur'an and Hadeeth? Supposed author. Hadith are just as valid a source of information as Qur'an, just because it's not's "authored by God" doesn't make any difference. If you're not muslim, it should matter even less to you. Unless you were Qur'an only and still carry those tendencies. Qur'an has chain of narrators just like Hadeeth, just not so many people know about it, it's not as air tight as most people think.

Archeological and Scientific studies have proven there was no Exodus as laid down by the Bible or Al-Qur'an.

Yet Muhammed 'recevied' divine verses telling him these events happened.

It's all bullshit.

It's like Noahs Ark,

Kangaroohs and Polar Bears clammering to get a seat before the rains came.

It's total fucking nonsense.

Speaking of Noah's Ark, didn't they (and I can't be more specific on who 'they' are) find some boat in Turkey near Mount Ararat, claiming it is Noah's Ark?

Yeah, bunch of idiots.

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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #22 - October 18, 2008, 12:43 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on October 17, 2008, 08:49 AM
Well as I understand it, which may not be very well, the Quran says to follow the example of the prophet but doesn't contain many examples of his behaviour. To rectify this grievous oversight on the part of Allah the ahadith were compiled/invented/rescued from goats or whatever.

I suppose they're important because people want to follow Mohammed's example (although it beats me why they would) and therefore the examples are important to them. Without them they don't have much.

I know that much but what I'm wondering is how can they just believe these 'scholars' really know about Mo's habits and whatnots. It's one thing to not question god's supposed word but not to question man's word is absurd to me.
Hadeeths are essentially just opinions of their authors, and I think Muslims know that. I guess they do need something to follow and the Quran isn't enough.

I guess I'm just questioning their intellect.

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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #23 - October 18, 2008, 01:38 AM

We've been struggling with this question too, why is one verse stuck in the "Surah" pile and another verse stuck in the "hadith" pile? Can anyone find me a link that discusses this? There seems to be a zillion talking about the relative validity of one hadith over another, but
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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #24 - October 25, 2008, 02:57 PM

Quote from: Charles on October 17, 2008, 03:09 PM
Archeological and Scientific studies have proven there was no Exodus as laid down by the Bible or Al-Qur'an.

Yet Muhammed 'recevied' divine verses telling him these events happened.

It's all bullshit.

It's like Noahs Ark,

Kangaroohs and Polar Bears clammering to get a seat before the rains came.

It's total fucking nonsense.

The cruschendo moment of the Exodus story was the temporary parting of the red sea - allowing the Israelites to cross safely into the promised land. What type of scientific evidence would be able to conclusivley prove, either way, whether the red sea parted for a brief period of time 3000+ years ago?

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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #25 - October 25, 2008, 05:32 PM

Quote from: Hassan1 on October 25, 2008, 02:57 PM

The cruschendo moment of the Exodus story was the temporary parting of the red sea - allowing the Israelites to cross safely into the promised land. What type of scientific evidence would be able to conclusivley prove, either way, whether the red sea parted for a brief period of time 3000+ years ago?

And you think it did? I think a fairly sensible appraoch would be, if the red sea can't part now, it couldn't then either. That goes for turning water into wine, ressurections and all the rest.

Ha Ha.
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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #26 - October 26, 2008, 11:24 PM

Quote from: Jack Torrance on October 25, 2008, 05:32 PM
Quote from: Hassan1 on October 25, 2008, 02:57 PM

The cruschendo moment of the Exodus story was the temporary parting of the red sea - allowing the Israelites to cross safely into the promised land. What type of scientific evidence would be able to conclusivley prove, either way, whether the red sea parted for a brief period of time 3000+ years ago?

And you think it did? I think a fairly sensible appraoch would be, if the red sea can't part now, it couldn't then either. That goes for turning water into wine, ressurections and all the rest.

I do. But I dont believe such mirracles can be proven (either way) scientifically, although I may be wrong.

...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #27 - October 27, 2008, 05:54 AM

Well Hassan1, the parting of the Red Sea may be difficult to prove or disprove but there is no archaeological evidence for the slavery in Egypt or the plagues there or the Exodus or the conquest of Canaan ever happening. In fact all the evidence points to the whole story being made up, so I think there's a pretty good basis for assuming the Red Sea was behaving normally back then.

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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #28 - October 27, 2008, 06:00 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on October 27, 2008, 05:54 AM
Well Hassan1, the parting of the Red Sea may be difficult to prove or disprove but there is no archaeological evidence for the slavery in Egypt or the plagues there or the Exodus or the conquest of Canaan ever happening. In fact all the evidence points to the whole story being made up, so I think there's a pretty good basis for assuming the Red Sea was behaving normally back then.

Well MY holy book reports that the Red Sea turned purple and started singing show tunes. Of course, there's now way to prove or disprove it, but that's what God says happened and if you don't believe it...watch out!

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The cloud climbs up to heaven;
It does not seek the aid
Of Gautama's sutras.

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Re: Al-Qur'an
Reply #29 - October 27, 2008, 06:12 AM

Heretic. It turned green. People like you are the reason western civilisation is in decay.

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