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Theme Changer

 Topic: Shaneequa vs Cheetah

 (Read 20850 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     OP - September 10, 2008, 03:32 AM

    One-on-one thread for two of our favourites. This should be interesting. Carry on.  bunny

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #1 - September 10, 2008, 05:21 PM

    One-on-one thread for two of our favourites. This should be interesting. Carry on.  bunny


    Thank you, again.  bunny  bunny  bunny
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #2 - September 10, 2008, 05:26 PM

    Good morning Cheetah. It's almost noon over here, and I'm still trying to wake up. Anyway, I just thought of an opening question.

    What do you think happens when we die?




  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #3 - September 11, 2008, 10:57 AM

    Hey Shaneequa,

    Sorry I was away all day yesterday, didn't get near a computer.

    Right - what I do I think happens after we die?  Nobody knows what happens when we die, including you.  Plus, while I think that question is a great idea for a thread, its probly not such a great idea for this thread, because all religions believe that we will survive our own death and go to some kind of eternal reward/punishment. 

    What I wanted to debate with you was why you believe that the particlular branch of Protestantism that you have converted into is the truth.  Whereas if we start discussing life after death, even if you convince me, we could just as well be discussing Islam or spiritualism or whatever.

    I reckon we should stick to the scriptures, what do you think?

    Let's start at the beginning with the Book of Genesis.  Do you believe this ...

    Quote
    002:021 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he
            slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh
            instead thereof;

    002:022 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a
            woman, and brought her unto the man.

    002:023 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my
            flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of
            Man.


    ...is literally true?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #4 - September 11, 2008, 01:56 PM

    My question is a valid one...and I will stick with scripture. Remember, the reason for this thread is you want me to contend for your soul.

    I'm asking: What do you think happens when we die?
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #5 - September 12, 2008, 12:36 PM

    I don't know what happens after we die.  I don't have a blind faith that nothing happens, and I don't assume that there is an afterlife either.  There's no rational reason to assume anything either way without evidence, and there's nothing wrong with just saying 'we don't yet know.'

    So I keep an open mind.  What do you think happens when we die?  I will accept any idea you give, as long as it is backed up with evidence, (and as has been pointed out to you already, quotes from the Bible are not evidence).

    Btw, when we've finished with the speculation about this, I want to get back to the Book of Genesis.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #6 - September 12, 2008, 10:37 PM

    I don't know what happens after we die.  I don't have a blind faith that nothing happens, and I don't assume that there is an afterlife either.  There's no rational reason to assume anything either way without evidence, and there's nothing wrong with just saying 'we don't yet know.'


    I see what you're saying.

    Quote
    So I keep an open mind.  What do you think happens when we die?


    The bible says:

    Heb:9:27: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    Quote
    I will accept any idea you give, as long as it is backed up with evidence, (and as has been pointed out to you already, quotes from the Bible are not evidence).


    I'm going to tell you what the bible says. You may choose to believe or disbelieve it. The bible says:

    Heb:4:12: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    I'm relying on this....and am happy you are keeping an open mind.

    Quote
    Btw, when we've finished with the speculation about this, I want to get back to the Book of Genesis.


    First, we have much terrain to cover before reaching that bridge. Let us shod our feet with the boots of the gospel.


  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #7 - September 13, 2008, 01:04 AM

    Quote
    I see what you're saying.


    Are you sure about that?  I'm not sure you really see what I'm saying, unless of course, you are being intentionally rude by following it up with more quotations from the Bible with no interpretation from you.

    Quote
    The bible says:

    Heb:9:27: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


    And your interpretation of that is........?

    I will deal with the rest of your post after you have dealt with the points above.





    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #8 - September 13, 2008, 01:45 AM



    Are you sure about that?  I'm not sure you really see what I'm saying,


    I understand that you're not sure what happens when we...that it may be nothing at all...or it may be something else. I had a similar view...only it sometimes included reincarnation.

    Quote
    unless of course, you are being intentionally rude by following it up with more quotations from the Bible with no interpretation from you.


    No. I explained why I'll be quoting the scriptures.

    Quote
    And your interpretation of that is........?


    It is pretty straight-forward:
    Heb:9:27: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    There is a rule of hermeneutics not to eisegete, which means to read a verse and say "what does that mean to me?" We are to exegete and say "what is the author saying?"

    One thing that hit me, though is that it says "ONCE to die..." That caused me wonder if we are only given once chance to live "on this mortal coil", rather than be reassigned until we have learned our full lessons.

    I shall now endeavor to explain what is "the judgement".

    Quote
    I will deal with the rest of your post after you have dealt with the points above.


    Okay. I think I have done that. Are you ready now?





  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #9 - September 13, 2008, 11:44 AM

    Quote
    I understand that you're not sure what happens when we...that it may be nothing at all...or it may be something else. I had a similar view...only it sometimes included reincarnation.



    You don't understand why I keep an open mind though, do you?  Explain back to me why you think I don't hold any blind faith for or against life after death.

    Quote
    No. I explained why I'll be quoting the scriptures.


    I expect you to quote scriptures, and I insist that you back up any quote you use with evidence.  Otherwise it is very unethical to quote it.  Do you understand what evidence is, Shaneequa, and do you understand why it is unethical to preach at people without giving any evidence to back up your claims?

    Quote
    t is pretty straight-forward:
    Heb:9:27: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    There is a rule of hermeneutics not to eisegete, which means to read a verse and say "what does that mean to me?" We are to exegete and say "what is the author saying?"


    So what is the author saying, and why should I believe it? 

    Quote
    I shall now endeavor to explain what is "the judgement".


    No, you won't.  You can stick with the conversation in front of you and stop ignoring every point I make in favour of some pre-programmed spiel of your own. 

    Deal with the points above before you go any further, and deal with them properly this time, please.

    Quote
    Okay. I think I have done that. Are you ready now?



    LO fucking L.  Don't insult my intelligence, Shaneequa.




    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #10 - September 13, 2008, 09:50 PM



    You don't understand why I keep an open mind though, do you?


    I didn't claim to understand why you are keeping an open mind. I'm just you're doing it.

    Quote
    Explain back to me why you think I don't hold any blind faith for or against life after death.

    No. But I will tell you it is good not to hold to a blind faith. A blind faith is no faith at all....and a blind faith is counterproductive to keeping an open mind

    Quote
    I expect you to quote scriptures,


    Good. That is what I'm going to do.
    Quote
    and I insist that you back up any quote you use with evidence.

     
    It is not up to me to do anything but tell you what the bible says. Whether you believe it or not is for you to decide.

    Quote
    Otherwise it is very unethical to quote it.  Do you understand what evidence is, Shaneequa, and do you understand why it is unethical to preach at people without giving any evidence to back up your claims?


    They are not my own claims. As I said, you are free to believe whatever you want. Jesus offers the water that springs into eternal life. I will show you where said water is....and you may choose to drink or not drink it.

    Quote
    So what is the author saying, and why should I believe it?

     

    He is saying "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment", and as I have said, it is up to you. You may reject it.

    Quote
    No, you won't.

     

    If I let you have your way, I'll never get there. Do you want to know the bible says about the judgement?

    Quote
    You can stick with the conversation in front of you and stop ignoring every point I make in favour of some pre-programmed spiel of your own.

     

    You asked me to try to "save your soul". That's why we both agreed to have this thread. This "spiel" is not my own, but it has been known before the foundation of time....and it is now revealed to us by the very Author of life, the God of all creation.
    Quote
    Deal with the points above before you go any further, and deal with them properly this time, please.

    I have dealt with them properly. Now are you willing to walk on this journey?

    Quote
    LO fucking L.  Don't insult my intelligence, Shaneequa.


    It's not your intelligence....and I am not insulting you.



  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #11 - September 14, 2008, 05:08 PM

    Okay. Do you agree the bible says we die once and then the judgement? Are you ready for a verse that talks about the judgement? Would you like to post one?
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #12 - September 15, 2008, 09:56 PM

    Quote
    I didn't claim to understand why you are keeping an open mind. I'm just you're doing it.


    I asked you whether or not you understood, from your dodging of the question I am going to assume that you don't understand why, and explain it to you.  I have never seen any evidence for the existence of life after death, nor have I seen any evidence that death is definitely the end, therefore I don't know what happens after we die, (and nor do you).

    Quote
    It is not up to me to do anything but tell you what the bible says. Whether you believe it or not is for you to decide.


    No, that's not what we agreed on.  The challenge I issued was for you to try and convert me.  So far the substance of your efforts could be summed up in four words - "read the Bible, Cheetah."  If you're just going to quote bits of the Bible without any attempt to discuss the quotations, or give evidence to back them up,  you're wasting both our time.

    Besides, I've already read the Bible, its riddled with repetitions and contradictions in a manner you would be very quick to criticise if you found it in the Qur'an.  The Book of Genesis can't even agree with itself about the order of creation.....

    Quote
    GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
    GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


    Right, so beasts first then man, but then......oh dear.

    Quote
    GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
    GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


    Does God have amnesia?  He can't even get the start of his story straight.  Then there's the story of the Flood, which is actually two interwoven stories, which also contradict each other on the detail of how many of each animal was brought into the ark.

    Quote
    GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.


    Ok, so seven each of clean animals, two each of unclean.  Erm.....

    Quote
    GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah


    Does God have Alzheimer's?  If this stuff is inspired by any deity, it is a god who has a head like a seive.

    Oh, and while we're on the subject of the Flood.....

    Quote
    Genesis 6:17 wrote:And as for me, here I am bringing the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force of life is active from under the heavens. Everything that is in the earth will expire.


    So God killed everything and everyone.  Children, pregnant women and their unborn children, dumb animals incapable of knowing right from wrong let alone commit sins.   Not only does this god of yours have the concentration span of a goldfish, he is a genocidal, psychopathic despot too.  If you blindly obey the orders of this god, then it is no wonder you can't see why you are being unethical by quoting something at me, (and Tuts) in an attempt to convert without bringing evidence.  After all what does a bit of untruth matter when you worship a maniac who drowns children ?

    Btw, if I want to know what the Bible says about judgement I can look it up myself.  I want to know what YOU have to say, from your own thoughts, not some pre-programmed, second hand twaddle you learnt at  Born Again School.   thnkyu


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #13 - September 16, 2008, 02:06 AM



    Quote
    I asked you whether or not you understood, from your dodging of the question I am going to assume that you don't understand why, and explain it to you.


    You have agreed:
    "Btw, when we've finished with the speculation about this, I want to get back to the Book of Genesis."

    We're not finished....and you are doing everything you can to see we don't get started.


    Quote
    I have never seen any evidence for the existence of life after death, nor have I seen any evidence that death is definitely the end, therefore I don't know what happens after we die,


    And I said I understand

    Quote
    (and nor do you).


    That is your opinion.


    Quote
    No, that's not what we agreed on.  The challenge I issued was for you to try and convert me.


    And I'm doing it the "by the book". It is the only way I know...besides I already told you what the bible says....that the word of God is a two-edge sword.

    Heb:4:12: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    Shaneequa's word is not a two-edged sword. God's word is. So I shall report and let you decide.

     So far the substance of your efforts could be summed up in four words - "read the Bible, Cheetah." 

    No it's not. I'm pointing to the verses that have exactly to do with your salvation. I'm not telling you read the bible cover-to-cover. Though you may want to do that later.



    Quote
    If you're just going to quote bits of the Bible without any attempt to discuss the quotations, or give evidence to back them up

    You continue to ignore how I have already replied to this. Each time you say this, I have even tried to explain it some more and you have showed no indication that you seen them at all.

    Quote
    you're wasting both our time.

    If that's how you feel, I suggest you ask this thread to be closed....though I thought you said you were going to keep an open mind...

    Quote
    Besides, I've already read the Bible, its riddled with repetitions and contradictions in a manner you would be very quick to criticise if you found it in the Qur'an.  The Book of Genesis can't even agree with itself about the order of creation....

    Quote
    GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
    GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


    Right, so beasts first then man, but then......oh dear.

    Quote
    GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
    GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


    Does God have amnesia?  He can't even get the start of his story straight.  Then there's the story of the Flood, which is actually two interwoven stories, which also contradict each other on the detail of how many of each animal was brought into the ark.

    Quote
    GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.


    Ok, so seven each of clean animals, two each of unclean.  Erm.....

    Quote
    GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah


    Does God have Alzheimer's?  If this stuff is inspired by any deity, it is a god who has a head like a seive.

    Oh, and while we're on the subject of the Flood.....

    Quote
    Genesis 6:17 wrote:And as for me, here I am bringing the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force of life is active from under the heavens. Everything that is in the earth will expire.


    So God killed everything and everyone.  Children, pregnant women and their unborn children, dumb animals incapable of knowing right from wrong let alone commit sins.   Not only does this god of yours have the concentration span of a goldfish, he is a genocidal, psychopathic despot too.  If you blindly obey the orders of this god, then it is no wonder you can't see why you are being unethical by quoting something at me, (and Tuts) in an attempt to convert without bringing evidence.  After all what does a bit of untruth matter when you worship a maniac who drowns children ?


    And what did you promise me earlier?

    Quote
    Btw, if I want to know what the Bible says about judgement I can look it up myself.

     

    So far you don't want to know what the bible says about salvation. You have been digging your heels into the ground at every step. You have shown nothing but contempt for the word of God. Let me ask you, what book do you think Christians to
    know what our God, YHWH has to say?

    I thought you were going to set aside your prejudices for this. Your questions are good ones. I have asked alot of questions like that....but for now, I'm trying to get straight to the marrow.

    Are we both wasting our time?
    Quote
    I want to know what YOU have to say, from your own thoughts,

     
    And I have already told you....

    *sigh*

    Quote
    not some pre-programmed, second hand twaddle


    Have you not read any of my replies?

    Quote
    you learnt at Born Again School. thnkyu

     

    Why not?






  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #14 - September 18, 2008, 01:58 PM

    Quote
    And I'm doing it the "by the book". It is the only way I know...besides I already told you what the bible says....that the word of God is a two-edge sword.


    Unless you can convince me that the Bible is the word of God, you might as well be quoting Grimm's fairy tales at me.

    If you can't defend any of the contradictory nonsense and nastiness of the Book of Genesis, let's move on to these Gospels you're so fond of.

    Quote
    MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.


    Quote
    LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.


    So Matthew and Luke contradict each other on the identity of Joseph's father.  They also contradict each other on the whole genealogy of Jesus.  Mind you, it makes no sense that they even give the genealogy of Jesus through Joseph, because Joseph is only supposed to be his step father.  But - surprise, surprise -  the New Testament even contradicts itself on that point.....

    Quote
    ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;


    Quote
    MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.


    So was Jesus the fruit of Joseph's loins, or was his mother impregnated by the Holy Ghost while still a virgin?  Don't bother looking in the Bible for the answer, it can't make up its mind.

    Quote from: Shaneequa
    You have shown nothing but contempt for the word of God.


    Do you seriously expect me to believe that this nonsense is the word of God?  I would need to set aside, not prejudices, but all my critical faculties, and capacity for independent thought to do that.  Like you obviously have.



    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #15 - September 21, 2008, 01:01 AM



    Unless you can convince me that the Bible is the word of God, you might as well be quoting Grimm's fairy tales at me.


    You have asked me to contend for your soul....knowing my faith is in something you consider a fairy tale. Please let me tell you the gospel according to "my" book.

    Quote
    If you can't defend any of the contradictory nonsense and nastiness of the Book of Genesis, let's move on to these Gospels you're so fond of.


    I see. You are thinking by "the gospel", I mean the new testament or the gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The gospel is in these...as well as throughout the other 62 books.

    By the gospel, I mean: who man is, Who God is, His righteousness compared to man's righteousness and out need of a Saviour.

    So it's a fairy tale to you. I get it, but will you please let me explain the rest of my "fairy tale"?

    Otherwise, we will do nothing but go down rabbit trails.

    If you do not believe the book, it ought to be no threat to you.
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #16 - September 22, 2008, 01:25 PM

    Quote
    You have asked me to contend for your soul....knowing my faith is in something you consider a fairy tale. Please let me tell you the gospel according to "my" book.



    Whoever taught you to preach “by the book” unfortunately also taught you to put the cart before the horse.  It is no good telling people anything according to your book without first telling them why your book means anything for their soul. 

    Quote
    I see. You are thinking by "the gospel", I mean the new testament or the gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The gospel is in these...as well as throughout the other 62 books.

    By the gospel, I mean: who man is, Who God is, His righteousness compared to man's righteousness and out need of a Saviour.


    And what makes you think the Bible has the answers to any of these questions?  The Bible cannot agree with itself on creation, it gives two different sets of the Ten Commandments, it says Jesus was born of a virgin and then traces his paternal bloodline to prove his authenticity (and it gives two different versions of that), it contains internal inconsistencies, scientific idiocies and historical innacuracies all over the place.  In other words, there is nothing in the Bible which could prompt an impartial reader to conclude that it was divinely inspired.   As for God's righteousness, well that would be funny were it not so sad.  What is righteous about the God of the Bible?  He uses collective punishment, or to use a blunter term, genocide.  He has himself tortured to death on a cross to absolve people of the moral responsibility for their own sins.  None of that is righteous. 

    Quote
    So it's a fairy tale to you. I get it, but will you please let me explain the rest of my "fairy tale"?


    The Bible is not just a fairy tale, fairy tales don't cause people to persecute homosexuals, so called “witches”, heretics, apostates and others.  The Bible has been used for all that throughout the ages, before secularism finally defanged Christianity, allowing the moral zeitgeist to progress beyond its ignorance.  I used the example of Grimm's fairy tales to try and get across to you that you might as well be quoting any random book at me unless you first give me a reason to think that the Bible is divinely inspired.

    Quote
    Otherwise, we will do nothing but go down rabbit trails.


    Nonsense.  It is common sense for you to answer these points before you proceed if, that is, you expect your “gospel” to have any credibility.

    Quote
    If you do not believe the book, it ought to be no threat to you.


    I do not believe the book is anything other than a collection of man made writings and it is no threat to me.  I have yet to find anything in the Bible which could not have been written by anyone without any divine inspiration, and I find plenty in there which is backward and nasty – tribal prejudice, superstition, human errors.  So why should I take any notice of what the Bible says about anything?


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #17 - September 23, 2008, 08:39 PM

    Cheetah,

    You did not ask me to prove to you that the bible is the word of God. You asked me to do to you what I do to King Tut. That means I'm going to personalize some verses to you....anything that is about your soul.

    Have you ever seen me witness to King Tut by apologetics?

    It's true. I came to believe by the means of apologetics, but it's pretty rare. First a person needs to have a broken heart...so I must have already had that, though looking back, there was still alot of pride and self-righteousness to break through...that's why I'm still not sure if I was saved.

    First I want you see where you stand in God's eyes. Would you say you're good enough to get in to heaven?

    How good does a person have to be?

     
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #18 - September 23, 2008, 10:15 PM

    If I were Ken Ham, I'd be able to answer your Genesis questions in my own words. If I were R.C Sproul, I'd be able to answer your genealogy questions in my own words...but I'm not them. I am me.

    The only thing I want to cut and paste is scripture, so as not to miss a jot or tittle.
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #19 - September 24, 2008, 12:38 AM

    Quote
    You did not ask me to prove to you that the bible is the word of God. You asked me to do to you what I do to King Tut. That means I'm going to personalize some verses to you....anything that is about your soul.



    I did not ask you to “do what I do to King Tut”, at all.   I asked you to try and convert me, save my soul, and you know this full well Shaneequa.  Then again, as I said before, what do a few lies matter when you already pray to a monstrous God who drowns children in a fit of temper?

    As I have also said before, and several times now, it is useless for you to quote anything from the Bible without first giving me evidence that this book is, on the balance of probabilities, more likely to be divinely inspired than not.  So now you have  renamed your obsessive wish to quote the Bible at me as, “personalize some verses to you”.   That doesn't change the paradigm of this thread by one iota.  I still need you to give me some reason to believe that the Bible is inspired by God, (and please note that I am not asking for absolute proof here, that would be unreasonable, this is not a murder trial), otherwise you may as well be quoting, or “personalising”, bits of Moby Dick, or Macbeth, or The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

    Quote
    Have you ever seen me witness to King Tut by apologetics?


    I have seen you preach scripture at King Tut with no attempt to give any evidence to back up the truth of what you are preaching, and I have seen you single out the most mentally unstable member of an ex-muslim forum for blatant Christian fundie conversion techniques. 

    I regard that as very unethical, to the extent that if I were in charge of the rules here, you would have joined Tutsie in Damnation by now.  (You would probably be let out quicker though.)

    Quote
    It's true. I came to believe by the means of apologetics, but it's pretty rare.

     

    Apologetics?  Interesting choice of word.  All I want is to hear why the Bible is a book which I should consider to be capable of saving my soul.

    I've even given you specific questions to answer.  I've even made it that easy for you.  So how come you have given me nothing?   You just persist in your need to quote Scripture at me, and then when that doesn't work, you re-word your insistence on mindless regurgitation of Bible quotes  into “personalisation”.   This lack of any evidence, and persistant attempt to avoid it is, if anything, increasing my resistance to the idea of the Bible as being divinely inspired.

    However, you mention these “apologetics” that convinced you – I would be very interested in hearing them.  If they convinced you, and you were a secular humanist before you heard them, then surely I, as a secular humanist,  must stand some chance at least of being convinced too?

    Quote
    First a person needs to have a broken heart...so I must have already had that, though looking back, there was still alot of pride and self-righteousness to break through...that's why I'm still not sure if I was saved.


    A person needs to be at an all time low in their life before they will fall for the creotard nonsense of the likes of Ken Ham, yes, yes, we all know that.  That's common knowledge, as is the fact that a person in such a needy and vulnerable state will break down their own critical facutlies, and return themselves to a state of childlike gullibility, in order to cling on to the apparent life- raft offered by the first and most manipulative religious cult which gets their hands on them.

    Quote
    First I want you see where you stand in God's eyes. Would you say you're good enough to get in to heaven?

    How good does a person have to be?


    Does God have eyes?  Does he even exist?  And if so, why would he create fragile, volatile beings like ourselves, and then give us free will, and then condemn us to eternal torture if we don't use that supposed “free” will in a way that he approves of? 

    How good does a person have to be to get into Heaven?  Depends on how compassionate God is.  I would say that no mere human deserves eternal torture for temporary crimes, not even Hitler, who is the most evil person I can think of.  So if even Hitler deserves Heaven eventually, why would you doubt your own salvation?  Why would you doubt mine, or think my soul needs saving?

    What kind of a God are you worshiping?  Oh, wait........... yeah, sorry, I forgot.  It's that old tribal, psychopathic, tyrant Yahweh, he who drowns children and burns entire cities and sends plagues on first born children, that genocidal old bastard, Yahweh.

    Quote
    If I were Ken Ham, I'd be able to answer your Genesis questions in my own words.


    If you were Ken Ham, I would stop pulling my punches.  If you were Ken Ham I would have made you look utterly, utterly retarded and degraded by the end of page one of this thread.  However, if Ken Ham is your chosen source of evidence for the truth of Genesis, then please give me a link to where he gives this evidence, and then a synopsis of why you believe it in your own words.

    I promise I won't be nasty in response, even though Ken Ham is of the same contemptible ilk as Zakir Naik.  I despise Ken Ham, but I respect and like you, so I would like to hear why you find him convincing enough to quote as a source you deem worthy enough to be heard in his own words?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #20 - September 24, 2008, 01:41 AM




    I did not ask you to “do what I do to King Tut”, at all.   I asked you to try and convert me, save my soul, and you know this full well Shaneequa.


    Remember you said that your soul is in as much danger as King Tut's? And you asked why I don't try to save you as much as I try to save King Tut?

    Quote
    As I have also said before, and several times now, it is useless for you to quote anything from the Bible without first giving me evidence that this book is, on the balance of probabilities, more likely to be divinely inspired than not.  So now you have  renamed your obsessive wish to quote the Bible at me as, “personalize some verses to you”.   That doesn't change the paradigm of this thread by one iota.  I still need you to give me some reason to believe that the Bible is inspired by God, (and please note that I am not asking for absolute proof here, that would be unreasonable, this is not a murder trial), otherwise you may as well be quoting, or “personalising”, bits of Moby Dick, or Macbeth, or The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.


    But my faith is not in Macbeth, Moby Dick nor even the gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Do you understand that I believe the word of God is quick and powerful? Even an unbeliever may be "cut to the quick" by the word of God. That means that whether or not you believe in the bible, you may hear a few verses or even one verse...and with the aid of the Holy Spirit, you are changed forever.


    Quote
    I have seen you preach scripture at King Tut with no attempt to give any evidence to back up the truth of what you are preaching, and I have seen you single out the most mentally unstable member of an ex-muslim forum for blatant Christian fundie conversion techniques. 

    I regard that as very unethical, to the extent that if I were in charge of the rules here, you would have joined Tutsie in Damnation by now.  (You would probably be let out quicker though.)


    King Tut is not only the most unstable person here, but I sense he is "ticking time bomb"...both a danger to himself and to others...and an immediate danger. His only hope is to be jabbed in the heart by the "sword of the Holy Spirit" which is the word of God. It seems he doesn't have time. For him it is now or never.

    Then again, how do any of us know how much time we have? If I came to you with a knife in back and knew I only had ten minutes to live, would you give me the gospel as fast as you can? Would I ask you to explain Genesis and the genealogy of Christ.

    There is alot of violence where you live. How do you know how much time you have? Hopefully you have alot of time, but no-one ever knows.


    Apologetics?  Interesting choice of word.  All I want is to hear why the Bible is a book which I should consider to be capable of saving my soul.

    Quote
    I've even given you specific questions to answer.  I've even made it that easy for you.  So how come you have given me nothing?   You just persist in your need to quote Scripture at me, and then when that doesn't work, you re-word your insistence on mindless regurgitation of Bible quotes  into “personalisation”.   This lack of any evidence, and persistant attempt to avoid it is, if anything, increasing my resistance to the idea of the Bible as being divinely inspired.

    However, you mention these “apologetics” that convinced you – I would be very interested in hearing them.  If they convinced you, and you were a secular humanist before you heard them, then surely I, as a secular humanist,  must stand some chance at least of being convinced too?


    I guess that's fair enough...
    Quote

    A person needs to be at an all time low in their life before they will fall for the creotard nonsense of the likes of Ken Ham, yes, yes, we all know that.  That's common knowledge, as is the fact that a person in such a needy and vulnerable state will break down their own critical facutlies, and return themselves to a state of childlike gullibility, in order to cling on to the apparent life- raft offered by the first and most manipulative religious cult which gets their hands on them.


    Well, Jesus says we are to come to Him as a little child...

    Quote
    How good does a person have to be to get into Heaven?  Depends on how compassionate God is.  I would say that no mere human deserves eternal torture for temporary crimes, not even Hitler, who is the most evil person I can think of.  So if even Hitler deserves Heaven eventually, why would you doubt your own salvation?  Why would you doubt mine, or think my soul needs saving?


    That is the opposite of what the bible says. In fact, if Mother Theresa did not repent and believe on Christ, her own goodness was not enough to get her into heaven...and we all know that she was a selfless and giving woman. So, if Mother Theresa is in hell, that means alot of people are in hell and are going to hell.

    Quote
    What kind of a God are you worshiping?  Oh, wait........... yeah, sorry, I forgot.  It's that old tribal, psychopathic, tyrant Yahweh, he who drowns children and burns entire cities and sends plagues on first born children, that genocidal old bastard, Yahweh.


    And Jesus said if we don't repent, we likewise shall perish.

    Quote
    If you were Ken Ham, I would stop pulling my punches.  If you were Ken Ham I would have made you look utterly, utterly retarded and degraded by the end of page one of this thread.  However, if Ken Ham is your chosen source of evidence for the truth of Genesis, then please give me a link to where he gives this evidence, and then a synopsis of why you believe it in your own words.

    I promise I won't be nasty in response, even though Ken Ham is of the same contemptible ilk as Zakir Naik.  I despise Ken Ham, but I respect and like you, so I would like to hear why you find him convincing enough to quote as a source you deem worthy enough to be heard in his own words?


    Alright. I will do that and also answer your question on Christ's genealogy, plus the difference in the two genealogies....but I know this could go on for a very long time.
    If I answer these, will you let me go on to give you the gospel? Whether you believe it or not, at least you will know what it is.
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #21 - September 24, 2008, 02:01 AM

    Hey Shaneequa,


    Quote
    002:021 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he
            slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh
            instead thereof;

    002:022 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a
            woman, and brought her unto the man.

    002:023 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my
            flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of
            Man.


    ...is literally true?


    Yes. It is literally true. If God created the whole universe with words and created Adam out of clay, then it isn't hard to conclude he created our earthly mother from Adam's rib.

    That's actually not the hardest Genesis question....not like "where did Cain get his wife?".....so you're right, I should have answered this right away...except, I'm still trying to get us straight through the gospel...and as quickly as possible.
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #22 - September 24, 2008, 02:25 AM


    Besides, I've already read the Bible, its riddled with repetitions and contradictions in a manner you would be very quick to criticise if you found it in the Qur'an.  The Book of Genesis can't even agree with itself about the order of creation.....

    Quote
    GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
    GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


    Right, so beasts first then man, but then......oh dear.


    Right. Do you notice that He said "it is good" with His every creation? Then He said "it is very good" with His creation of man?

    Quote
    Quote
    GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
    GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


    Because we are western, we tend to read all things in a linear fashion. That's why we see these verses as saying something like "after God created Adam, He then created the beasts"...but He's actually saying he called the beasts (that he had already formed)over to Adam.

    Does God have amnesia?  He can't even get the start of his story straight.  Then there's the story of the Flood, which is actually two interwoven stories, which also contradict each other on the detail of how many of each animal was brought into the ark.

    Quote
    GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

    Quote
    Ok, so seven each of clean animals, two each of unclean.  Erm.....

    Quote
    GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah


    Does God have Alzheimer's?  If this stuff is inspired by any deity, it is a god who has a head like a seive.


    Genesis 7:2 already explained seven each of the clean beasts. Perhaps along with the sevens, Noah was also to take an additional pair, one male and one female of the clean beasts, making it nine. So with each pair of the unclean beasts, there would be a pair of each  clean beast.

    It's possible that sevens were babies, so as to not take so much room, but he also instructed additional adult pairs.

    Quote
    Oh, and while we're on the subject of the Flood.....

    Quote
    Genesis 6:17 wrote:And as for me, here I am bringing the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force of life is active from under the heavens. Everything that is in the earth will expire.


    So God killed everything and everyone.  Children, pregnant women and their unborn children, dumb animals incapable of knowing right from wrong let alone commit sins.   Not only does this god of yours have the concentration span of a goldfish, he is a genocidal, psychopathic despot too.  If you blindly obey the orders of this god, then it is no wonder you can't see why you are being unethical by quoting something at me, (and Tuts) in an attempt to convert without bringing evidence.  After all what does a bit of untruth matter when you worship a maniac who drowns children ?


    Their is evidence that all children and babies go to heaven....and no animals go to hell. We all have to die once. In fact, it is appointed to us. God gives us life and He can take it away.

  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #23 - September 24, 2008, 02:30 AM

    I will try to answer the rest tomorrow. Sorry. It's past my bed-time.
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #24 - September 25, 2008, 04:26 AM

    Okay. About the genealogies, I shall try to remember what I've read and heard (in my own words.) Then I will give you links in case my words (or memory) don't do justice.

    Here we go. Mary and Joseph had much the same ancestry, so in a way, Jesus did share Joseph's bloodline in that Mary shared much of Joseph's bloodline. Matthew's and Luke's differ, because Matthew's way was Jewish and Luke's way was Greek...plus Luke also named some women. His purpose was to show how Christ's line was linked to all humanity....all the way to Adam.

    Matthews purpose was to show the Jewish lines which always links to Abraham. Plus both genealogies show the fulfillment of the old testament prophecies, i.e....line of David, stem from the root of Jesse, etc.

    Do you mind if one or two links are from Sermon Audio? 
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #25 - September 25, 2008, 05:25 AM

    I need to ask if you've heard of Ian Brown. I think you may have...and you probably know more than I do. Even if he is an evil man (which I don't know enough one way or the other), his explanation of the genealogies sounds promising. Remember, even Satan can expound the scriptures and speak truthfully on alot of things.

    http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=23051373

    However, I will understand if you absolutely do not want to hear him. He may have been buds with Paisley.

    It's strange. I do not trust his face. Then again, I know that people cannot help how their faces look. He looks smug...

    Still, so far, this is the best I've heard.

    (but I'll keep looking)
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #26 - September 25, 2008, 06:16 AM

    Here's from someone not from Northern Ireland. He has a PDF:
    http://media.sermonaudio.com/mediapdf/22607214815.pdf

    Quote
    First let me deal briefly with the differences in the genealogies:


     Mathew goes forward from Abraham


     Luke moves back all the way to Adam


     Luke gives all the details


     Mathew’s is a summary broken down into three "fourteens"


     Mathews traces the line through Solomon


     Luke traces the line through Nathan


     Mathew is Kingly


     Luke shows humanity


     One is the promise to Abraham


     One is the promise to Adam

    Clearly, in BOTH cases:

    -- God is faithful down through all of history

    How to handle the discrepancies:


     Realize that God has providentially protected His Word, even if we don’t fully understand all the details that are given!

    For example: Explaining the lineage that Luke uses: [Heli v. Jacob]

    Here are three plausible explainations for having two different names:


    • Heli is Mary’s father


    • Heli is Joseph’s step-father


    • Heli is the father of Joseph’s mother

    We are simply not told!


    And if you want to listen along, his sermon is here: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=22607214815

  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #27 - September 25, 2008, 06:45 PM

    Quote
    Remember you said that your soul is in as much danger as King Tut's? And you asked why I don't try to save you as much as I try to save King Tut?


    Don't play silly word games, Shaneequa.  Your task all along has been to convert me, and I have told you numerous times that you are not going to achieve that by quoting scripture, unless you give me evidence that said scripture is divinely inspired.

    Quote
    But my faith is not in Macbeth, Moby Dick nor even the gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Do you understand that I believe the word of God is quick and powerful? Even an unbeliever may be "cut to the quick" by the word of God. 


    Yes, but you are not trying to convert yourself, are you?  You are trying to convert me, which means you need to give me a reason to believe that the Bible is any more the word of God than Macbeth, Moby Dick or the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

    Quote
    That means that whether or not you believe in the bible, you may hear a few verses or even one verse...and with the aid of the Holy Spirit, you are changed forever.


    If you believe that then you are delusional.  I have heard and read the Bible many times, I was raised with the Bible and I see no reason to value it above any other old book

    Maybe you should tell the Holy Spirit to get its skates on.

    Quote
      King Tut snip


    Let's make that the last mention of King Tut in this thread.  He, and his mental state, are irrelevant to whether or not the Bible is the word of God.

    Quote
    Then again, how do any of us know how much time we have? If I came to you with a knife in back and knew I only had ten minutes to live, would you give me the gospel as fast as you can? Would I ask you to explain Genesis and the genealogy of Christ.


    Irrelevant to whether or not the Bible is the word of God.  Anyway, medical attention – you know, that thing science gave us – would be more help to a person with a knife in their back than quotes from some old book.

    Quote
    There is alot of violence where you live.


    No, there isn't.

    Quote
    How do you know how much time you have? Hopefully you have alot of time, but no-one ever knows.

     

    Irrelevant.  Whether I die tomorrow or live to be a hundred will have no bearing on the divinely inspired qualities, (or lack of them), of the Bible.

    Quote
    Well, Jesus says we are to come to Him as a little child...


    Encouraging child like behaviour in followers is a classic cult mind control tactic. Its called disinhibition - Encouraging child-like obedience by orchestrating child-like behavior.

    http://winformation.us/upci/cults.htm

    Quote
    That is the opposite of what the bible says. In fact, if Mother Theresa did not repent and believe on Christ, her own goodness was not enough to get her into heaven...and we all know that she was a selfless and giving woman. So, if Mother Theresa is in hell, that means alot of people are in hell and are going to hell.


    So, despite being a selfless and giving woman, if Mother Theresa committed the thought crime of not believing in Christ, he will torture her for all eternity?  That is both wicked and ridiculous, and if I am to believe that the book which tells you this comes from God, you will need some seriously strong evidence for it.

    Quote
    And Jesus said if we don't repent, we likewise shall perish.


    You mean, the Bible reports Jesus as saying it.  That doesn't make it true though, you are still putting the cart before the horse.

    Quote
    If I answer these, will you let me go on to give you the gospel?


    That depends on how convincing your answers are.



    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #28 - September 25, 2008, 06:54 PM

    Quote
    Yes. It is literally true. If God created the whole universe with words


    Which he didn't.  The universe started with the Big Bang, not some words from a psychopathic deity.

    Quote
    and created Adam out of clay


    Which he didn't.  Men, (and women), evolved from other primates.

    Quote
    then it isn't hard to conclude he created our earthly mother from Adam's rib.


    Given that your first two “ifs” contradict known realities like the Big Bang and evolution, I'm afraid it is not just hard, but insane, to conclude that the first woman was created from a rib. 

    The Bible has fallen at the first hurdle, unless you can disprove the Big Bang and evolution, which I highly doubt.

    Quote
    That's actually not the hardest Genesis question....not like "where did Cain get his wife?".....so you're right, I should have answered this right away...except, I'm still trying to get us straight through the gospel...and as quickly as possible.


    I know where Cain's wife came from.  That's a trivial thought exercise, not an important question about the veracity of the literal interpretation of the Bible which you suscribe to. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Shaneequa vs Cheetah
     Reply #29 - September 25, 2008, 07:11 PM

    Quote
    Right. Do you notice that He said "it is good" with His every creation? Then He said "it is very good" with His creation of man?


    That's a meaningless response to the charge that Genesis contradicts itself on the order of creation.

    Quote
    Because we are western, we tend to read all things in a linear fashion. That's why we see these verses as saying something like "after God created Adam, He then created the beasts"...but He's actually saying he called the beasts (that he had already formed)over to Adam.


    Our linear concept of thought is part of our Judeo Christian heritage, which the Old Testament is part of.  Besides, your defense of that contradiction is just plain wrong.  The text explicitly states in Gen 2:19 that God creates the beasts and then calls them over to Adam to name, Adam having already been created in Gen 2:18.

    Quote
    GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


    See?  Read the text, its not a misreading to put linear order into that text, the Bible explicitly states it.

    Quote
    Genesis 7:2 already explained seven each of the clean beasts. Perhaps along with the sevens, Noah was also to take an additional pair, one male and one female of the clean beasts, making it nine. So with each pair of the unclean beasts, there would be a pair of each  clean beast.


    Nonsense.  That is nowhere written or implied in the text itself, and if it were it would also be a contradiction.  One verse says seven of clean and two of unclean, the other says two each of all animals, clean and unclean.  If one verse said nine of clean animals that wouldn't help your case at all.

    Quote
    It's possible that sevens were babies, so as to not take so much room, but he also instructed additional adult pairs.


    Again, that's nowhere in the book itself, you just made that up.  And again it doesn't help your case.  Those two verses flat out contradict each other, regardless of whether they are talking about babies or adults. 

    Quote
    Their is evidence that all children and babies go to heaven.


    So is it okay if I kill children and babies then?  (I'm passing over your misuse of the word “evidence” in amused silence).

    Quote
    We all have to die once. In fact, it is appointed to us. God gives us life and He can take it away.


    Yes, but we don't have to be murdered once, do we?  To drown innocent people because you are displeased with some among them is wicked, its the action of a tyrant, not a loving creator. 


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
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