Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Today at 06:05 PM

Another Word Game
Today at 04:08 AM

NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
Yesterday at 04:29 PM

Pakistan: The Nation.....
Yesterday at 03:21 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
December 04, 2021, 11:59 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
December 04, 2021, 11:08 PM

France Muslims were in d...
December 01, 2021, 06:14 PM

مدهش----- لماذا؟؟؟؟
by akay
December 01, 2021, 01:05 PM

The essence of the facts
by akay
November 30, 2021, 05:43 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 25, 2021, 01:57 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 24, 2021, 12:57 PM

Muhammad's illiteracy, po...
November 23, 2021, 03:09 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?

 (Read 10171 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 3« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #60 - March 28, 2021, 11:31 AM

    it seems to me that you are not looking at things objectively or purposefully.


    I don't pretend to be objective. It's clear that you aren't being so honest - to us and possibly yourself.

    I don't think of myself as an ex-muslim or atheist so I'm not trying to convert you to the 'truth'. I just pointing out that your arguments are dogshit.

    As there is no need for you to explain how reality works, lets move on to what you actually believe. Here's an an easy question: should disbelievers be harmed in name of god?
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #61 - March 31, 2021, 04:40 AM

    Continuation

    Before continuing here is how the questions I raised could be answered. According to the so far known information, we have common ancestry. Even if we went back on our own human family tree, we should be able to clearly see that. Some of us are more closely related to others than the rest just like we have parents and grandparents and great grand parents and so on and so forth. Just like some of us are first cousins and second cousins and third cousin etc etc so we are cousins of cousins of cousins etc etc. So it is very safe to say that all human beings who are alive today (say nearly 8 billion of us) are at least distant cousins if not first cousins to each other. If we look at tree of life, we humans are not only related to each other but also to rest of living things because we all come from the very same tree of life. This is why we have a number of common genes with each other to some degree. So humans, animals and plants are all from the very same distant ancestry. If we go yet back in time we end up being just subatomic particles that existed in the very same space like fish in a fish tank moving about at random. In short no matter what we are, we are just things living in the very same vacuum or space or place. It therefore should be very clear for all of us that God has created or evolved things from things. That is how we are here today.

    Why things are different from each other? It is because God decided to create things for his own purposes and because they were supposed to serve different purposes in the grand scheme of God according to his plan and purpose. When we decide to build a building we gather different things to be part of the very same building because they serve different purposes in the building so in a similar way God needed to create so many different things to serve different purposes in the very same house built by God. So we human beings who exist today are children of the very same ancestors. This is why we communicate with each other the very same way as we have learned from each other down our generations. In that case why do we speak many different languages when we all started the very same way?

    It is because there are times when we are together and there are also times when we separate from each other for our own reasons. Sometimes our separations are non-permanent but at other times they are permanent. In case of non-permanent separations some people go away from the main group and come back or keep in touch with the main group but in case of permanent separation that does not happen and people become a separate group of people. Since people always learn new things wherever they are so they need new words or new meanings of words to continue life with new discoveries they make and new things they invent wherever they are. As generations pass over time the new words and meanings people invent due to their new inventions or discoveries they become new languages for them after some generations. These are not the only reasons why new languages came about but also some people want to keep some things secret from others so they keep inventing more an more secret codes between themselves. These are the only main reasons where by we ended up speaking different languages which are basically the very same in their origin if trace them backwards. In other words all human languages are original because they are based on the very same original idea. This is why we can build family trees of languages just as we can our family trees.   

    Now the question, why do we need such dictionaries as I propose? We need such dictionaries for a very simple reason which is the fact that God knows all there is to know but we do not. We only know what we come to know after learning it over a period of time. Same is the problems with our human language. We do not and we cannot know future things and we are hardly sure about our past much. Not only that we also do not know our present very well either. The simple fact is that if we are paying attention to things in front of us, we have no idea what is going on between things behind our back or on our sides.  It is because all other things are out of our focus of attention as we are very limited in our capabilities for they are only given to us by God for serving a particular purpose for which we are created by God. Now God being a God is bound to talk about past, present and future so he has to use many words for that purpose however he cannot use words for us about which we cannot have any idea at all as to what they are about during the time of the revelation of God. However the meanings of those word only become clear to us with time, Meanwhile the human language keeps on expanding all the time through out the human worlds because we keep inventing and discovering new things all the time for which we need new words and new meanings to be able to talk about them or to be able to explain them to each other. So we keep extending meanings of existing words and where we get stuck we coin new words and define them for our purposes and so on and so forth. Since God used words in his book are for a particular time period as God does not send his messengers and books everyday, so we need to be able to interpret messages of God for the duration of the God sent message.

    This is how we end up misinterpreting God sent scripture a lot because the time has not yet come for those realities to become known for us. This is the point all people must focus on fully to understand the main reason why God sent scripture needs reinterpretations all the time because as time moves forward so does human understanding of things due to new inventions and discoveries. People of old could not know what we have come to know and our future generations will come to know things about which we have little or no idea at all. The book of God ought to remain relevant to the reality at all times because God is always aware of all things so this calls for its new interpretations by human beings and this is why we need dictionaries which could tell us possible meanings of words used in the book of God not just meanings used by a people just in their own time. This is why the quran tells us we humans are going to discover a lot of new things generation after generation about which we have no idea yet. This will keep on happening till eventually it becomes very obvious for human beings that the quran is truly word of God or from God.

    We all know mullaans are focusing on vital importance of ancient interpretations of the quran rather than writing the newer ones which could explain the quran in light of current knowledge of humanity in a better way. So we need such scholars and their interpretations of the quran that take us back in time where that is vitally important and which take us into the future where that is vitally important. We don't need same interpretations of the quran with different or new names for they waste our time and energy instead of adding to our knowledge about God and things. Is it therefore not clear who is right and who is wrong on this issue or matter in relation to mullaans, scientists or philosophers and sensible people? This is why when mullaans, scientists and philosophers etc say new interpretations of the quran are wrong they talk nonsense. They do that because they don't think at a deeper and wider scale in this regard as they should. Each time someone says what the scientist have discovered is already in the quran, they say, show it to us in your old interpretations of the quran. Such people fail to realise the point that humans cannot see into the future only God can so how could any human interpret the quran about the future?

    Now if people could not see into the future then how could they interpret word of God that way till their time had come. This is why I point out that just as a human baby learns with time so does a grown up human being ie none can come to know anything before one's time has come for knowing something. So humans cannot know things till the time for knowing them comes for human beings or that human beings bring that time for themselves by working harder than they do. This proves the point that all people are just like mullaans when it comes to learning things. Could anyone decide this issue without the explanation I have given? This does not mean that I am the only clever person on the planet who has figured this out rather there are others much more clever than me. The difference is, I focused on the issue under discussion ie issue of God and his book where as all others are busy doing other great things which also need doing. It is because they also prove greatness of God by their works even though this may not be their intention. This explanation should leave one in major doubt why we need special dictionaries if we wish to learn things from the quran and real world realities. The quran is not in arabic but in arabic that is called mubeen. What does that mean? It means God has revealed the quran for teaching people sense beyond what they can learn by way of three methods I have explained but only if they will learn it the way it should be learned.

    This is why if we humans wish to become highly sensible people then we must create these special dictionaries which not only show us the origin and meanings of words as well as the mechanism involved but also new possible meanings of words as well so that we too like God could figure out things before they happen in future. This is why if we will not give due attention to the quran then we will never become sensible enough to bring about a beautiful world for ourselves which the quran advises for us and tells us that it is possible for us to bring about such a world.

    The next point regarding language is about meanings of alphabet set letters the quran uses. Originally people did not know letters rather they used to talk about things using images or pictures as already explained. We can write in any language using the very same pictures. This is why even today we can write any language using roman characters for example. Roman letters are just pictures or images representing sounds and so are letters of all languages. Likewise we use same letters to write arabic, persian and urdu. Arabic letters' names come from hebrew etc letters. Arabic itself is not a recent language but that it was written using letters of other ancestral languages. We have named languages on basis of names of certain areas that were inhabited by certain people at a particular time period so arabic is a language which was spoken by a people who lived in an area called arabia. However basically all human language are same as already explained. Arabic only has a few letters different from hebrew alphabet set for example. These letters were originally in concept based pictorial forms. These pictures then over time were turned into letters and shapes of letters kept changing till people found them very helpful or easier to use and that is when they became stable. So the concepts of those letters remains with us till today. This is why letters be they hebrew or arabic etc carry the very same concepts they originally had.

    Originally people named things by names of actual existing objects or things, this is why we have such a thing as concrete meanings of words. For example, letter alaf means a bull, bay means tent or house or place of stay or residence and so on and so forth. Another vitally important point to note is that almost all letters have opposing or contrary or contradictory or conflicting meanings within them ie they not only contain synonyms but also their opposite menaing as well, so only the contexts in which letters and words are used decide which meanings are to be taken in which sense. For example, letter hay means hijaab ie fence or wall or barrier etc etc. The wall or barrier is used for keeping something inside the barrier or outside of it. So in one sense it means obstruction or obstacle or hurdle or difficulty or problem etc etc but in another sense it means protection or shield or shelter or screen and yet in another sense it means something else etc etc. If one is not aware of such vitally important points as I have explained then one could never interpret the quran properly just by knowing so called arabic as we generally know it. This is why if people wish to understand the quran properly then they must make really good effort to be able to decode its message properly. These are the major reasons why even the arabs failed to interpret the quran properly ie they have no idea about basic things which need to be at the fore front  of one's mind. It is because the quran uses language in a very broad spectrum from as simple as possible form to as complex as possible form.

    People interpret the quran by way of meanings of words without asking themselves where have those meanings actually come from in the first place and why they mean what they mean. This is why they argue with each other senselessly over the quran. Some will argue over what is arabic and is the quran really in arabic language etc etc. They do not realise that all human language is the same and that we have named languages on basis of geography and that is because people have standardised some sounds in particular ways for practical purposes as explained already. In the quran God says, all his names ie attributes are beautiful yet in the quran we find words which we use in expressing negativity. Then we argue that this word only and only means a bad thing so the quran false and its God is a false God. This is how people waste their time and energy. All because they have no idea that words used in the quran mean both good and bad things and that we humans need to choose appropriate meanings from the conflicting meanings. The quranic text has its own purpose based over all proper context in which it needs to be interpreted. For example, people interpret the quran in religious context when the quran is actually about a proper way of life for mankind from God to live by. That way of life is decided by purpose for which God has created people. It is God advised way of life because it leads people to works whereby they could fulfill the purpose for which God has created them. This is why unless people get hang of what the purpose and plan of God is, they cannot understand the quran to start with. In fact we humans cannot understand anything at all unless we have context of something at the fore front of our minds. Context cannot be known without a lot of very, very hard work and wityngoing back and forth so many times due to trying out different possibilities. However once we come to know things then anything is a piece  of cake for us. Confidence comes from knowledge and doubt throws people in despair. This is why the quran is not at all about blind faith rather it is about reason and evidence based faith.

    I think I have explained major points by now so we can start learning the quran in its proper context. If anything comes up later on I will try and explain it there. Anyone who has not read my so far posts or the quran will have problems with what I am going to explain. My posts are for sincere people who at least reflect on things in order to try and understand them rather than those who try to argue to prove the quran false without having real knowledge of things that are of vital importance. I am not telling people new things but the way I look at them is totally new and I have stated enough reasons for that which if are understood properly by people then they will leave no major doubt in anyone's mind that this is the way to go. It is because human beings can only and only rely upon possibilities that are probable as already explained in detail. That is because even our own very brains and senses are not free of human errors.  Individual issue are not important at this stage but an over all understanding of things regarding the quran. Remember anything we human do not know is a puzzle for us and that is why we need to struggle really hard to sort out the puzzle till it is sorted out. Nothing is accomplished easily in life. Some things are more difficult to figure out or sort out than others and that is why we need to struggle through as a team rather than as enemies who trip each other and ruin everything for everyone. So try to be sensible by learning better and better sense and try to help others learn better and better sense. This is the only way forward for all of us if we are looking for solutions of all over problems in a sensible way. So anyone looking for trouble or creating problems will end up ruining oneself as well as others because we human being are created fully interlinked and fully interdependent by God. This is why if one suffers and then gradually we all end up bearing the brunt of it sooner or later. It is as if we are all around a huge round table and we are pulling it or pushing towards or away from each other. So the table will move in the direction the resultant force moves it. I hope we all move this table towards the right direction and whatever results as a consequence will affect all of us in a good or bad way. So hopefully we all will end up putting this table in the right place.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #62 - March 31, 2021, 06:52 AM

    My posts are for sincere people who at least reflect on things in order to try and understand them rather than those who try to argue to prove the quran false without having real knowledge of things that are of vital importance.


    ie, only insincere people will disagree with your posts? what a load of bollocks.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #63 - March 31, 2021, 10:43 AM

    Continuation

     Before continuing here is how the questions I raised could be answered. According to the so far known information, we have common ancestry. Even if we went back on our own human family tree, we should be able to clearly see that. Some of us are more closely related to others than the rest just like we have parents and grandparents and great grand parents and so on and so forth. Just like some of us are first cousins and second cousins and third cousin etc etc so we are cousins of cousins of cousins etc etc. So it is very safe to say that all human beings who are alive today (say nearly 8 billion of us) are at least distant cousins if not first cousins to each other. If we look at tree of life, we humans are not only related to each other but also to rest of living things because we all come from the very same tree of life. This is why we have a number of common genes with each other to some degree. So humans, animals and plants are all from the very same distant ancestry. If we go yet back in time we end up being just subatomic particles that existed in the very same space like fish in a fish tank moving about at random. In short no matter what we are, we are just things living in the very same vacuum or space or place. It therefore should be very clear for all of us that God has created or evolved things from things. That is how we are here today.

    That is NOT clear and that is one of the biggest fallacy faith heads like you have dear Mughal.,

    God is fine..
    God created everything is fine ..
    God worked through evolutionary processes to create human race is fine 
    God created  dog cat rat  snake etc..etc..gillion spices  is fine
    God created  Ebola virus  covid virus polio virus... etc etc gillion viruses is fine
    God created TB Tuberculosis   Mycobacterium tuberculosis bacteria ..yeast ..e-coli etc..etc gillion  bacteria is fine
    God created  STUPID PEOPLE IS FINE
    God controls everything is fine
    God of gaps is fine

    what is NOT fine is your SILLY STATEMNTS such as "
    Quote
    It therefore should be very clear for all of us that God has created or evolved things from things"

    that is NOT fine.,   SUCH SATEMENST ARE EXPLORABLE DEBATB:E HYPOTHEISES AND ASSUMTIONS .,The other thing that you often do in your posts  is .,  you attribute G_D as ..He...     AND THAT IS ALSO STUPID.., God is not he.. your god is not he .. the dick head

    your posts are full of fallacies and assumptions   and you write those assumptions and fallacies as truth and nothing but truth .,And that is stupid  from a learned man like you .,   but I am glad to read you and I hope you are reading  the book links i provided

    Quote
    Why things are different from each other? It is because God decided to create things for his own purposes and because they were supposed to serve different purposes in the grand scheme of God according to his plan and purpose. When we decide to build a building we gather different things to be part of the very same building because they serve different purposes in the building so in a similar way God needed to create so many different things to serve different purposes in the very same house built by God. So we human beings who exist today are children of the very same ancestors. This is why we communicate with each other the very same way as we have learned from each other down our generations. In that case why do we speak many different languages when we all started the very same way?

    It is because there are times when we are together and there are also times when we separate from each other for our own reasons. Sometimes our separations are non-permanent but at other times they are permanent. In case of non-permanent separations some people go away from the main group and come back or keep in touch with the main group but in case of permanent separation that does not happen and people become a separate group of people. Since people always learn new things wherever they are so they need new words or new meanings of words to continue life with new discoveries they make and new things they invent wherever they are. As generations pass over time the new words and meanings people invent due to their new inventions or discoveries they become new languages for them after some generations. These are not the only reasons why new languages came about but also some people want to keep some things secret from others so they keep inventing more an more secret codes between themselves. These are the only main reasons where by we ended up speaking different languages which are basically the very same in their origin if trace them backwards. In other words all human languages are original because they are based on the very same original idea. This is why we can build family trees of languages just as we can our family trees.

      tha is all OK.. god is NOT he..   all that loooong winding running circles statements are full of QUETIONABLE  assumptions ad full of fallacies

    Quote
    Now the question, why do we need such dictionaries as I propose? We need such dictionaries for a very simple reason which is the fact that God knows all there is to know but we do not. We only know what we come to know after learning it over a period of time. Same is the problems with our human language. We do not and we cannot know future things and we are hardly sure about our past much. Not only that we also do not know our present very well either. The simple fact is that if we are paying attention to things in front of us, we have no idea what is going on between things behind our back or on our sides.  It is because all other things are out of our focus of attention as we are very limited in our capabilities for they are only given to us by God for serving a particular purpose for which we are created by God. Now God being a God is bound to talk about past, present and future so he has to use many words for that purpose however he cannot use words for us about which we cannot have any idea at all as to what they are about during the time of the revelation of God. However the meanings of those word only become clear to us with time, Meanwhile the human language keeps on expanding all the time through out the human worlds because we keep inventing and discovering new things all the time for which we need new words and new meanings to be able to talk about them or to be able to explain them to each other. So we keep extending meanings of existing words and where we get stuck we coin new words and define them for our purposes and so on and so forth. Since God used words in his book are for a particular time period as God does not send his messengers and books everyday, so we need to be able to interpret messages of God for the duration of the God sent message.

    This is how we end up misinterpreting God sent scripture a lot because the time has not yet come for those realities to become known for us. This is the point all people must focus on fully to understand the main reason why God sent scripture needs reinterpretations all the time because as time moves forward so does human understanding of things due to new inventions and discoveries. People of old could not know what we have come to know and our future generations will come to know things about which we have little or no idea at all. The book of God ought to remain relevant to the reality at all times because God is always aware of all things so this calls for its new interpretations by human beings and this is why we need dictionaries which could tell us possible meanings of words used in the book of God not just meanings used by a people just in their own time. This is why the quran tells us we humans are going to discover a lot of new things generation after generation about which we have no idea yet. This will keep on happening till eventually it becomes very obvious for human beings that the quran is truly word of God or from God.

    We all know mullaans are focusing on vital importance of ancient interpretations of the quran rather than writing the newer ones which could explain the quran in light of current knowledge of humanity in a better way. So we need such scholars and their interpretations of the quran that take us back in time where that is vitally important and which take us into the future where that is vitally important. We don't need same interpretations of the quran with different or new names for they waste our time and energy instead of adding to our knowledge about God and things. Is it therefore not clear who is right and who is wrong on this issue or matter in relation to mullaans, scientists or philosophers and sensible people? This is why when mullaans, scientists and philosophers etc say new interpretations of the quran are wrong they talk nonsense. They do that because they don't think at a deeper and wider scale in this regard as they should. Each time someone says what the scientist have discovered is already in the quran, they say, show it to us in your old interpretations of the quran. Such people fail to realise the point that humans cannot see into the future only God can so how could any human interpret the quran about the future?

    Now if people could not see into the future then how could they interpret word of God that way till their time had come. This is why I point out that just as a human baby learns with time so does a grown up human being ie none can come to know anything before one's time has come for knowing something. So humans cannot know things till the time for knowing them comes for human beings or that human beings bring that time for themselves by working harder than they do. This proves the point that all people are just like mullaans when it comes to learning things. Could anyone decide this issue without the explanation I have given? This does not mean that I am the only clever person on the planet who has figured this out rather there are others much more clever than me. The difference is, I focused on the issue under discussion ie issue of God and his book where as all others are busy doing other great things which also need doing. It is because they also prove greatness of God by their works even though this may not be their intention. This explanation should leave one in major doubt why we need special dictionaries if we wish to learn things from the quran and real world realities. The quran is not in arabic but in arabic that is called mubeen. What does that mean? It means God has revealed the quran for teaching people sense beyond what they can learn by way of three methods I have explained but only if they will learn it the way it should be learned.

    This is why if we humans wish to become highly sensible people then we must create these special dictionaries which not only show us the origin and meanings of words as well as the mechanism involved but also new possible meanings of words as well so that we too like God could figure out things before they happen in future. This is why if we will not give due attention to the quran then we will never become sensible enough to bring about a beautiful world for ourselves which the quran advises for us and tells us that it is possible for us to bring about such a world.

    The next point regarding language is about meanings of alphabet set letters the quran uses. Originally people did not know letters rather they used to talk about things using images or pictures as already explained. We can write in any language using the very same pictures. This is why even today we can write any language using roman characters for example. Roman letters are just pictures or images representing sounds and so are letters of all languages. Likewise we use same letters to write arabic, persian and urdu. Arabic letters' names come from hebrew etc letters. Arabic itself is not a recent language but that it was written using letters of other ancestral languages. We have named languages on basis of names of certain areas that were inhabited by certain people at a particular time period so arabic is a language which was spoken by a people who lived in an area called arabia. However basically all human language are same as already explained. Arabic only has a few letters different from hebrew alphabet set for example. These letters were originally in concept based pictorial forms. These pictures then over time were turned into letters and shapes of letters kept changing till people found them very helpful or easier to use and that is when they became stable. So the concepts of those letters remains with us till today. This is why letters be they hebrew or arabic etc carry the very same concepts they originally had.

    Originally people named things by names of actual existing objects or things, this is why we have such a thing as concrete meanings of words. For example, letter alaf means a bull, bay means tent or house or place of stay or residence and so on and so forth. Another vitally important point to note is that almost all letters have opposing or contrary or contradictory or conflicting meanings within them ie they not only contain synonyms but also their opposite menaing as well, so only the contexts in which letters and words are used decide which meanings are to be taken in which sense. For example, letter hay means hijaab ie fence or wall or barrier etc etc. The wall or barrier is used for keeping something inside the barrier or outside of it. So in one sense it means obstruction or obstacle or hurdle or difficulty or problem etc etc but in another sense it means protection or shield or shelter or screen and yet in another sense it means something else etc etc. If one is not aware of such vitally important points as I have explained then one could never interpret the quran properly just by knowing so called arabic as we generally know it. This is why if people wish to understand the quran properly then they must make really good effort to be able to decode its message properly. These are the major reasons why even the arabs failed to interpret the quran properly ie they have no idea about basic things which need to be at the fore front  of one's mind. It is because the quran uses language in a very broad spectrum from as simple as possible form to as complex as possible form.

    People interpret the quran by way of meanings of words without asking themselves where have those meanings actually come from in the first place and why they mean what they mean. This is why they argue with each other senselessly over the quran. Some will argue over what is arabic and is the quran really in arabic language etc etc. They do not realise that all human language is the same and that we have named languages on basis of geography and that is because people have standardised some sounds in particular ways for practical purposes as explained already. In the quran God says, all his names ie attributes are beautiful yet in the quran we find words which we use in expressing negativity. Then we argue that this word only and only means a bad thing so the quran false and its God is a false God. This is how people waste their time and energy. All because they have no idea that words used in the quran mean both good and bad things and that we humans need to choose appropriate meanings from the conflicting meanings. The quranic text has its own purpose based over all proper context in which it needs to be interpreted. For example, people interpret the quran in religious context when the quran is actually about a proper way of life for mankind from God to live by. That way of life is decided by purpose for which God has created people. It is God advised way of life because it leads people to works whereby they could fulfill the purpose for which God has created them. This is why unless people get hang of what the purpose and plan of God is, they cannot understand the quran to start with. In fact we humans cannot understand anything at all unless we have context of something at the fore front of our minds. Context cannot be known without a lot of very, very hard work and wityngoing back and forth so many times due to trying out different possibilities. However once we come to know things then anything is a piece  of cake for us. Confidence comes from knowledge and doubt throws people in despair. This is why the quran is not at all about blind faith rather it is about reason and evidence based faith.

    I think I have explained major points by now so we can start learning the quran in its proper context. If anything comes up later on I will try and explain it there. Anyone who has not read my so far posts or the quran will have problems with what I am going to explain. My posts are for sincere people who at least reflect on things in order to try and understand them rather than those who try to argue to prove the quran false without having real knowledge of things that are of vital importance. I am not telling people new things but the way I look at them is totally new and I have stated enough reasons for that which if are understood properly by people then they will leave no major doubt in anyone's mind that this is the way to go. It is because human beings can only and only rely upon possibilities that are probable as already explained in detail. That is because even our own very brains and senses are not free of human errors.  Individual issue are not important at this stage but an over all understanding of things regarding the quran. Remember anything we human do not know is a puzzle for us and that is why we need to struggle really hard to sort out the puzzle till it is sorted out. Nothing is accomplished easily in life. Some things are more difficult to figure out or sort out than others and that is why we need to struggle through as a team rather than as enemies who trip each other and ruin everything for everyone. So try to be sensible by learning better and better sense and try to help others learn better and better sense. This is the only way forward for all of us if we are looking for solutions of all over problems in a sensible way. So anyone looking for trouble or creating problems will end up ruining oneself as well as others because we human being are created fully interlinked and fully interdependent by God. This is why if one suffers and then gradually we all end up bearing the brunt of it sooner or later. It is as if we are all around a huge round table and we are pulling it or pushing towards or away from each other. So the table will move in the direction the resultant force moves it. I hope we all move this table towards the right direction and whatever results as a consequence will affect all of us in a good or bad way. So hopefully we all will end up putting this table in the right place.



    You don't need to write all that nonsense to say

    ...........QURAN THE BOOK IS FROM GOD ... ALLAH whatever .. because Quran says so............

    So in the end  .,  Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #64 - March 31, 2021, 11:35 AM

    ie, only insincere people will disagree with your posts? what a load of bollocks.


    Dear crumble, if we read the 2/2 of the quran. This point is very clear and very scientific. You see, we human beings only pay attention to things which either come to our attention or which are brought to our attention. Not only that but we only pay deeper attention to things which interest us or we find them interesting for one reason or another. We ignore all else other than what interests us or is made interesting for us by someone or something for whatever reasons.

    So the quran right at its start is telling us what sort of people will find guidance in it ie those who are already looking for guidance. The question is, why will people look for guidance or need guidance and guidance to what? This has been explained in surah one alfaatihah already by the quran.

    You see, we humans only look at a road map when we are learning about it or when we need to use it for what it is supposed to be about in order to get help from it. If we are not interested in learning about something then we ignore it instead of leaning about it and because we ignore it we never come to know the purpose of it or how to use it etc etc.

    If we are not aware or not made aware of something we cannot know anything about it. Likewise if we are not aware or become aware of purpose of something we do not learn it and even if it could help us be or have or use or do something we cannot make use of it even if we wanted or needed to later on because we did not prepare ourselves for that purpose to begin with.

    The quran claims to be guidance for humanity regarding why they are put here in this world and what they are supposed to do here and what is supposed to be going on in this world. It informs people about who put them here and why and how they can fulfill his assigned mission. Working properly for the success of that mission is termed a truly huge success for a person and working against it is termed a great failure. So it is up to individuals to decide how they are going to respond to the call of alleged God sent message for them.

    This is the context in which I speak as I understand things but of course I too am a human being and I could be wrong. It is difficult for one to see errors of one's own way all by oneself till someone helpful comes along and helps one to get out of the confusion or self delusion in some way.

    regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #65 - March 31, 2021, 12:11 PM

    That is NOT clear and that is one of the biggest fallacy faith heads like you have dear Mughal.,

    God is fine..
    God created everything is fine ..
    God worked through evolutionary processes to create human race is fine 
    God created  dog cat rat  snake etc..etc..gillion spices  is fine
    God created  Ebola virus  covid virus polio virus... etc etc gillion viruses is fine
    God created TB Tuberculosis   Mycobacterium tuberculosis bacteria ..yeast ..e-coli etc..etc gillion  bacteria is fine
    God created  STUPID PEOPLE IS FINE
    God controls everything is fine
    God of gaps is fine

    what is NOT fine is your SILLY STATEMNTS such as "that is NOT fine.,   SUCH SATEMENST ARE EXPLORABLE DEBATB:E HYPOTHEISES AND ASSUMTIONS .,The other thing that you often do in your posts  is .,  you attribute G_D as ..He...     AND THAT IS ALSO STUPID.., God is not he.. your god is not he .. the dick head

    your posts are full of fallacies and assumptions   and you write those assumptions and fallacies as truth and nothing but truth .,And that is stupid  from a learned man like you .,   but I am glad to read you and I hope you are reading  the book links i provided
      tha is all OK.. god is NOT he..   all that loooong winding running circles statements are full of QUETIONABLE  assumptions ad full of fallacies
    You don't need to write all that nonsense to say

    ...........QURAN THE BOOK IS FROM GOD ... ALLAH whatever .. because Quran says so............

    So in the end  .,  Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with





    Dear yeezevee, your silly responses are also interesting. I mean why it matters God is he or she or neither? This is just the way human language works.

    As for your point about fallacies, I think you need to go over your such assumptions to see if they prove true. It is because they are in direct conflict with three methods of human learning I already explained in detail the way you seem to understand them.

    God as I already said is beyond human finding out. Otherwise we all could find God out for ourselves all by ourselves. This is why unless God himself told us about himself we could never know anything about God. This is why to look at revelation of God as fallacy is a fallacy in itself.

    If instead of examining the alleged God sent revelation to ensure whether it is or it is not a God sent message we just assume God does not send revelations then that idea is false in itself. It is not logical for us human beings to rule out revelation by God. The implication on the other hand for accepting the idea of God sent revelation is that we must examine it for what it is worth and then if we see that it is false or man made then we can leave it aside and carry on living any way we like. This is why this is the right or logically consistent way of looking at things. This comes under 3rd method of learning.

    As for your concern that I am using my assumption as true statements. Well you are right from your point of you but from my point of view they are ok due to my study and understanding of things. However everyone is free to accept or reject what I or you or anyone says because people have right to make up their own minds about things. This is what we can agree upon 100%. I have already explained things about circular reasoning as to how it needs to be looked at or it conflicts with methods of learning.

    Regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #66 - March 31, 2021, 12:17 PM

    Here are some links for people for checking out things for themselves.

     https://www.sacred-texts.com/world.htm

    some english interpretations of the quran by various people

    http://islamicdawn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/eohq.pdf

    http://www.drshabbir.com/library/qxpvi_w_arabic_text.pdf

    https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/114/1/

    some arabic english dictionaries

    https://archive.org/details/QuranDictionary_201606/VIII

    https://futureislam.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/arabic-english-dictionary-of-qur-anic-usage.pdf

    https://archive.org/details/Arabic-englishDictionaryTheHansWehrDictionaryOfModernWrittenArabic.pdf

    https://archive.org/details/LANESARABICENGLISHLEXICONDIGITIZEDTEXTVERSION/AnArabic-englishLexiconPart1-81.00.04-

    https://archive.org/details/VocabularyOfTheHolyQuranarabicEnglish.pdf/page/n35/mode/2up



    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #67 - March 31, 2021, 12:40 PM


      look at these references yourself dear Mughal   most important is READING THEM ..

    https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/114/1/
     
    what is the point of that CHERRY PICKING??   go read this one

    https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/66/1/

    and read that chapter 66  from   Ghulam Ahmed Parvez of your own link dear   Mughal   ., start from page 1003 and read those verses in it

    http://islamicdawn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/eohq.pdf

    IT IS SUCH A NONSENSE.. anyways Ghulam Ahmed Parvez  was a VERY GOOD PERSON., although he tried his best to hide dirt in his  Quran translation under flying  carpet

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3y8UBn8y6Q

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #68 - April 05, 2021, 05:59 AM

      look at these references yourself dear Mughal   most important is READING THEM ..

    https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/114/1/
     
    what is the point of that CHERRY PICKING??   go read this one

    https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/66/1/

    and read that chapter 66  from   Ghulam Ahmed Parvez of your own link dear   Mughal   ., start from page 1003 and read those verses in it

    http://islamicdawn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/eohq.pdf

    IT IS SUCH A NONSENSE.. anyways Ghulam Ahmed Parvez  was a VERY GOOD PERSON., although he tried his best to hide dirt in his  Quran translation under flying  carpet

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3y8UBn8y6Q


    Dear yeezevee, I have read many books in my life time including the ones I have given links to. This is why I explain things the way I understand them regardless of what others think or say about those things if they make no sense to me.

    It is nice of you to bring in cherry picking terminology. We humans always cherry pick because otherwise there is far too much nonsense out there which could waste our time, energy and life. We always filter things or cherry pick them so problem is not with cherry picking but according to which criterion we cherry pick things. Cherry picking comes under learning method number three I explained already ie process of elimination.

    The whole idea of sharing our thoughts with each other is so that we could take things further than where others have taken them in the right direction. This comes under our learning method 2 ie indirect learning method.

    Looking at other peoples' works help us see what contributions they have made for furthering the cause of humanity. They are not for endorsing their wrong thoughts about things.

    My first link lets people see for themselves various scriptures about which people claim they are from God. By reading through them they can see if they can be or cannot be. In there one can easily see the fact that the quranic text style is totally different from all other scriptures. In other scriptures people themselves are talking about God and those scriptures have their own authors other than God where as in case of the quran, it is God himself speaking to people and telling them things and the quran has no human author and there could not be a human author of the quran as we shall see when I come to explaining the actual text of the quran. It is because human do not have the mindset, attitude and behaviour the quranic author has and which is very obvious in all other scriptures.

    It is a mindset, attitude and behaviour that is out of this world ie beyond human capability. We humans are worst enemies of each other and we know it. This being a case if any human wrote a book it will for sure have such information in it which will be based upon that animosity. It will not be free of biases and prejudices. The quranic text is based upon rules and regulations rather than an emotional nonsense but all this will become obvious when I come to explaining of the message. So we humans could not write a book like the quran even if we wanted to. Look at how many books people have written so far and how many movies have been made so far and that should leave us in no doubt that we have not been able to write a single book or make a single movie which could represent the message that is in the quran. 

    The point to ponder over is, we humans are about 8 billions in our number today on this planet and the quran has been there for last approximately 1500 years. How come out of so many human generations no one thought of writing a book from God in the quranic style of writing? This is very first evidence for people to think about which proves the quran is right candidate for being the actual word of God. As we come to discussing the quranic message we will see many such like points which will clearly show that the quran could not have been written by people themselves let alone by any single person.

    I remember asking people here to explain the purpose of taooz or taawuz and tasmiyah and I am still waiting for the right answer. This is the proof how attentively people read the quran for its proper understanding.

    The reason why I gave link to many quranic interpretations is so that people could clearly see the difference  between what i am going to explain and what those people have done to the message of the quran due to their lack of proper understanding of the proper context of the quranic text.

    Similarly, I have given links to dictionaries to show where their authors have fallen short of what I propose and the reasons for that. You also drew the line through the text not realising how vitally important the point I made is in relation to revelation of God..

    People need to realise that we cannot live with each other without some sort of arrangements and rules or regulations. This is why we must organise and regulate ourselves but why should we do all that for what purpose? Only the quran answers this question.

    Again you have brought in point of fallacies. People either have no idea what fallacies really are or where they are to be applied, they just hide behind fallacies by calling everything fallacies to run away from then issues at hand.

    You see, to us human beings only three methods of learning are available and nothing more ie first the direct learning method, second the indirect learning method and third the method called process of elimination and this is how far we can go for our learning. The fourth method is revelation from God because to reach God is not possible for us but it is possible for God to reach us. Human life is all about practicalities. It is not about infinite things or things which are impossible for human beings to be or to have or to use or to do. Human beings have very limited capabilities as I have explained already in detail. Human cannot do impossible things this is why we cannot use any method or idea or mechanism or thing which is beyond our own capabilities. To define fallacies the way they cannot be applied to human beings is a false definition of fallacies. Similarly if fallacies are applied wrongly then again that is false application of fallacies so in either case  such things are used to stop sensible arguments and this is how people define and apply them.

    Why such definitions or applications of fallacies are wrong? Because they directly contradict our tried and long tested methods of learning. The implication of doing so is that if we accept our learning methods are false then all our learning based upon those methods or according to those methods comes to nothing at all and this includes our definitions and applications of fallacies themselves. Do we want this end result? if not then we cannot call anything and everything a fallacy. It is because our learning methods are the only thing we know for sure that they work and we know they work because that is how we came to know anything and everything that we know. This is why I put all mullaans, philosophers and scientists in the very same category of ignorant fools who are just busy misleading masses by telling them to reject possibility of existence of God and his revelation in their own individual ways. So people need to grow up and not run after all the nonsense anyone tells them. It is time people get proper education or wrong kind of education will only and only keep on destroying them by hands of each other as it has been always the case.

    When it comes to learning language we need to become aware of the fact that we need to learn about related things as well otherwise learning some words and not knowing their applications creates kinds of mullaans or scientists or philosophers as we have them. People have very wrong idea that if they learn a language then they can understand anything and everything in that language so why not the quran? It is because as I have explained already a child speaks arabic as well as a grown up highly educated person yet what they understand about something is very different, why? Because what grown up knows is at a higher level or stage and what a child knows is at a very low level or stage. If an arab tells an arab baby to make a cup of tea for him. he will not get it because baby is not yet capable of doing that. Even if the baby becomes grown up but he has never even heard of what tea is then he will still have the very same problem because words need to be related to things they are meant for. This is why context of our talking is absolutely necessary to understand each other.

    This is why I had to explain what human language is, where it comes from, how it works or what processes are involved in it and why or what mechanisms are involved in it and why or how etc etc. All these thing that I have explained are not new for people put they had never discussed them the way I do and the way I connect and relate things together to show how they are interconnected. One cannot look at them in isolation from each other or they make no sense. For example, what is connection between ideologies, societies, politics, cultures or economics etc? What is connection between systems, structures, procedures or practices etc? None of these make any sense in isolation from each other. We always need to look at over all pictures of things to see what part of something fits where and what part it plays in there and how it does that etc etc. In a human society to understand social structure is as important as structure of a building. We do need to know what is connection between floor, ceiling, roof or walls or windows or doors etc etc. Social structure is all about how people are related or connected to each other eg mother or father or son or daughter or husband or wife or bother or sister or uncle or aunt etc etc. We need to know connections between doctors and patients, teachers and pupils, leaders and followers etc etc, Just as we need to know how people are interlinked or interconnected so we need to know how things are interconnected or interlinked or how people and things are interlinked. If we do not then we do not know how we fit in with each other therefore we cannot organise ourselves nor regulate ourselves let alone properly.     

    This is why we need to deconstruct naturally existing things and reconstruct them many times over in order to try and understand them as a whole and as parts so that we could make proper sense of them and so that we could make proper use of them the way we think could benefit us human beings. We are not here to destroy things just for sake of it but that is exactly what we have done and we are keep on doing. This is how we managed to destroy our natural environment as an example. We only think about immediate personal gains at the expense of anyone and everyone or anything and everything. This is the way of life we have chosen for ourselves to live by yet we do not get tired talking about nice things just to fool each other. Listen to politicians or university professors they badly fail to put two and two together properly. Look at how cigarette factories made money and they are still making money despite knowing what cigarettes do to human health. All this because we are completely divorced from morality and concern for each other's well being and yet we claim to be civilised people. Our schools, colleges and universities are factories for creating people with harmful and destructive mindsets, attitudes and behaviours who work only and only for their personal gains at the expense of all else. If our foundation is based on wrong ideology how can we bring about a right kind of human society that is right for human beings to live in? This is why looking at the whole picture is of vital importance. Jails are full worldwide because we have divided societies, or groups within groups fighting against each other all the time constantly. We are in grip of a spiral of negative competition with each other instead of being in a positive competition with each other.

    We do not want to be forced by anyone but we have every right to force anyone and everyone is the mentality throughout the human world. All this needs to be changed and it cannot be changed if we will put humanity on path of utter confusion by defining all practical  ways of learning as fallacies and defining all nonsense as knowledge which only and only throws humanity into an abyss.  It is time we redefined fallacies in light of practical life and living and apply them sensibly. Till we accept religion no matter whichever version and secularism no matter whichever version are utter nonsense and falsehood as well as utterly harmful and destructive and instead we turn to guidance of God there is no future for humanity other than what we already had. It is because if we will continue our journey of life on the wrong paths then we will certainly keep ending up in the wrong places. This is why to determine our end goal or destination carefully is of utmost vital importance for us and so is to choose the right path for right destination. It is a package deal and one can only take it or leave it and in either case one has to face the related outcome regardless one likes it or not. So we better learn to look at whole picture not just tinker around the edges. 

    regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #69 - April 05, 2021, 06:06 AM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ1_Mz5VFXg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmAiG0zwSJA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_TW0LwKVyc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkZolOKatOI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmROPqk2BW0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsR6L_18rKs

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #70 - April 05, 2021, 11:37 AM


    well dear Mughal

    Tube videos are OK
    writing rhyming sonnets is OK
    singing Quran songs is OK
    Praising God .allah with songs is OK
    you can do that in any language
    and every culture has done that   


     .,  But to read Quran and to enquire the history and origins of Quran and origins of Arabic language   and to think and to understand Quran the book  of114 chapters with some 6300 verses /sayings., It is better to read it multiple times  carefully very carefully .. Again as I said   Ghulam Ahmad Parwez (1903–1985) was a good man   on that let us read this again https://www.dawn.com/news/1132974

    Quote
    .......As a young man, Ghulam Ahmed Parvez would frequently wonder: why is the unvarying practice of Islamic rituals by Muslims not creating more upright men?

    He would repeatedly ask why all this ritualism isn’t creating the kind of a society that Islam’s holy book talks about. He would often be advised by his worried elders to keep his inquires to himself. But Parvez continued to study the Quran and other Islamic literature under various religious scholars to look for answers to all that was perturbing him. He then went on to bag a Master’s degree from the Punjab University in 1934.

    Ghulam Ahmed Parvez was now on his way to becoming one of the most well-informed and prolific Islamic scholars in South Asia. When he migrated to Pakistan in 1947, he rapidly rose to become a prominent figure on the rationalist sides of the Islamic discourse in the country. Consequently,  he also became a controversial thinker who would often clash with the traditionalists and the so-called obscurantists until the early 1980s when he finally slipped into a state of disillusionment and self-doubt, passing away as a broken old scholar in 1985.....

     all that is from   Nadeem F. Paracha written  in Dawn in , 2014
     

    Anyways to understand Quran and its origins and history it is better to read Quran. In those videos ..  For some reason you have selected those  few  verses  here and there from these surahs
     
     Surah Al Qalam...................aka Surah-68
     Surah Al Jin....................... ..aka Surah-72
     Surah Al Muzamil .............aka Surah-73
     Surah Al Mudasir................aka Surah-74
    Surah Al Infitar.......................aka Surah-82
     Surah Al Tatfif ........................aka Surah-83

    Why not read them from his book all those chapter .. verse by verse??  we can read it from his book itself .  That is better than hearing from him ., written words are always better than singing songs

    and watch this guy  from land of pure

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6NfcInq0e8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRNYhSnqZP0

    well that dead guy  was such a rascal..,  By the way., this is a very good book chapter to read   Islam A Challenge to Religion  by Allama Ghulam Ahmad Parwez
     
     you like it.. read it

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #71 - August 26, 2021, 11:04 AM

    In my write ups above I have explained in a bit of detail why people have no idea about how to look at things the right way as well as I have explained for them the proper way to look at things because it gives humanity all the needed or necessary or possible advantages.

    1) I have explained what is direct learning method which none can dispute.

    2) I have explained what is indirect learning method and why we need to use it and again there is none who could deny it.

    3) I have explained why we cherry pick or isolate things or use elimination process or method to focus our attention on purpose based things.

    4) I explained in detail what human language is and where it comes from or how or what is the exact mechanism involved in origin of words and their meanings in human languages.

    5) I explained things about revelation of God in detail as to what it is and why it is necessary part of human life.

    6) I also explained in detail the fact that if anyone opposes what has been explained then such a person becomes baseless oneself.

    This is why people need to realign their thinking along these lines be they scientists or philosophers or physicists or mullaans or whatever otherwise their ways of explaining things all fall apart or come to nothing at all.

    These points have been proven true regarding all versions of religion and secularism.

    This is why the way of life advised for mankind by God to abide by is the only reasonable option we humans have if we wish to have a great life in this world and that is why the quran deserves our proper attention.

    This is why I reject all versions of religion and secularism because they are responsible for the state of our human world as it is in front of our own eyes.

    If anyone is in doubt then one should look at the information on how powerful and wealthy are only a few at the expense of billions of poverty stricken people who are enslaved by them.

    Giants: Who Really Rules The World?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUGh1Su7-ok

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F2MUFZ_yfs

    power and wealth owned by religious leadership

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzOWEC7_COk

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9GbXGkbZ0k

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSE62LTksZI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFfmr2VDAsA

    All this proves the fact that poverty is a deliberately created phenomenon if we also add here videos where in it is clearly shown how so called surplus food is deliberately destroyed for keeping market pricing high.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLqkV8cP4xs

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALtfQVbHtM0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO5N5nPPwGA
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAiTuitN5b8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo-2gDg-37w

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1giYXrofZYo

    This also explains the fact that behind all anti deen of islam movements be they under any label are these people who benefit from keeping islam out of human minds.   

    But the main question is, is this the right way for humanity to organise and regulate itself for ensuring well being of whole of humanity? I do not think so and nor can anyone else who is in one's right state of mind.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #72 - August 29, 2021, 09:12 AM

    Helllooooo Mughal. how are you doing?  long time no see., well I am reading you almost for 25 years ... we are getting up there in to that senile sates  Cheesy Cheesy

    Well let me put your question and your post and tell you that YOU ARE THROWING VIDOES OF APPLES &  ORANGES THAT ARE UNRELATED TO YOUR QUESTION and trying to tell the reader you are on a right path...

    Unfortunately your question is wrong and your post is senile with unrelated utterings.. ., See your question  of this folder

    Q. Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation  and creation?

    We can discuss all that on Humans and human behavioral pattern   and whether humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, &  creation .. origins of universe.. or organs of /origins of multiverse , origins of life..  origins of grass..  origins of cat .....rat ...dog.... human..... whatever ...

    BUT.,  BUT THERE WAS.. AND THERE IS NO REVELATION IN ANY OF THESE SO-CALLED  RELIGIOUS BOOKS/UTTERINGS BY THOSE CAVE DEWLLERS who were living some thousand/s of years ago.  Those revelations are nothing but utterings and mutterings of human beings of their time.. albeit they were fairly intelligent people of their times.

    In my write ups above I have explained in a bit of detail why people have no idea about how to look at things the right way as well as I have explained for them the proper way to look at things because it gives humanity all the needed or necessary or possible advantages.

    1) I have explained what is direct learning method which none can dispute.

    2) I have explained what is indirect learning method and why we need to use it and again there is none who could deny it.

    3) I have explained why we cherry pick or isolate things or use elimination process or method to focus our attention on purpose based things.

    4) I explained in detail what human language is and where it comes from or how or what is the exact mechanism involved in origin of words and their meanings in human languages.

    5) I explained things about revelation of God in detail as to what it is and why it is necessary part of human life.

    6) I also explained in detail the fact that if anyone opposes what has been explained then such a person becomes baseless oneself.

    Sorry to say this to dear Mughal., YOU EXPLAINED NOTHING ., you are just assuming yourself that you explained...  but but most of what you write is wall of text with irrelevant unrelated statements to the subject of discussion

    Quote
    This is why people need to realign their thinking along these lines be they scientists or philosophers or physicists or mullaans or whatever otherwise their ways of explaining things all fall apart or come to nothing at all.

    These points have been proven true regarding all versions of religion and secularism.

    This is why the way of life advised for mankind by God to abide by is the only reasonable option we humans have if we wish to have a great life in this world and that is why the quran deserves our proper attention.


    This is why I reject all versions of religion and secularism because they are responsible for the state of our human world as it is in front of our own eyes.

    If anyone is in doubt then one should look at the information on how powerful and wealthy are only a few at the expense of billions of poverty stricken people who are enslaved by them.

    Sorry .,   what lines are youtaking ?? your lines ?? 

    And the videos that you put down  here essentially PROVES THE USELESSNESS OF THE BOOKISH god  THAT  100s millions of folks  were/are brain washed since their birth  to believe-in without questioning the basic concept .,
    Quote

      Those folks in those videos are smart guys but their videos are NOTHING to do with bookish god.. creation... origins .. .etc..etc....,  Again  what all those youtubes are proving is ., "THAT THESE BOOKISH RELIGIOUS god/s IS/ARE POWERLESS USELESS AND UTTERLY HELPLESS FOR HUMAN BEINGS ... AND THESE FAITH HEADS   WASTED/WASTING countless hours of their time getting brainwashed or brain washing others..,   
    Quote
    This also explains the fact that behind all anti deen of islam movements be they under any label are these people who benefit from keeping islam out of human minds.   

    But the main question is, is this the right way for humanity to organise and regulate itself for ensuring well being of whole of humanity? I do not think so and nor can anyone else who is in one's right state of mind.



    Nope irrelevant  words wrt  that question you posed on the heading of this folder and that is  "Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?"

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #73 - September 09, 2021, 11:06 AM

    Before a human could understand or really know something properly one needs to have at least a few things to begin with otherwise nothing can make proper sense to a human being.

    1) We humans need light to see things that need to be seen by us.

    2) We human beings also need eyes that can see what needs to be seen otherwise having light alone is not going to be of any use.

    3) We human beings need things that need to be seen by us otherwise just having light and eyes on their own mean nothing at all.

    4) Having all these still remain useless unless we have intelligence or intellectual ability to be able to make sense of things.

    5) All these still remain useless unless we have a proper context for them to make proper sense of them.

    6) The question is, from where can we get the proper context of things in which they could be understood properly or that they could make proper sense to us human beings?

    7) The context of things comes from their purpose for which they are made or designed or planned or came about.

    8)The only one who can tell us actual purpose of things is the one who made or designed or planned them.

    9) This is why dismissing God and revelation of God leads us into chaos and anarchy about anything and everything because we are then left to all kinds of possibilities and uncertainties and therefore we end up nowhere.   

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #74 - September 09, 2021, 11:23 PM

    explaining nonsense step by step doesn't make it any less nonsensical.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #75 - September 11, 2021, 09:15 AM

    The quran is such a book of knowledge that takes humanity on journey of discovery therefore to look at it as if people already know it is a very wrong way of looking at it. This is why before we could believe anything as the actual quranic teaching for sure we need to decode it properly in light of real world realities. This is why all baseless beliefs of mullaans are nothing but nonsense which cause people to raise numberless objections against the quran. This is why mullaans' nonsense interpretations of the quran are a crime against God and humanity because they stop people from accepting the quran as word of God due to such mistakes in these interpretations.

    The other problem with such belief based interpretations of the quran is that they stop people from thinking and saying anything new about the information in the quran and so the quran becomes an irrelevant book. So when people ask each other what is new in the quran, baseless beliefs stop people from saying anything because it will have to contradict the mullaan based beliefs. So mullaans have created a catch 22 situation for muslims and nonmuslims alike when it comes to the quran and its proper interpretation. This is how we have turned the book that is supposed to take us on a journey of discovery in to a useless book that should be ignored instead of being studied.

    Mullaans and their followers are so foolish that they do not realise what they are doing to the message in the quran and therefore to the muslim ummah and rest of humanity. Mullaans want people to believe in all kinds of nonsense. For example, people must believe in supernatural kind of miracles and magic which contradict permanent laws of nature. They want people to believe in special kinds of supernatural beings or creatures that are said to be invisible such as angels. demons  and spirits etc etc. They do not realise that God has created this universe as a physical phenomenon in which all things from the smallest to the largest are physical or are made of matter and matter is merely frozen energy which keeps converting back and forth ie energy becomes matter and matter become energy ie photons to quarks to subatomic particles to atoms to molecules to element or compounds etc etc.

    It should be very clear to understand the fact that God has created all things from things that is why we see smaller things joining or coming together to make bigger things. All things God has made are material things from the very smallest to the very largest. We ourselves do the same ie we make bricks from particles of dust by bringing them together and with bricks we make huge buildings and then we demolish huge buildings back into the tiny particles of dust.

    Just because something is invisible to human beings for one reason or another, it does not mean the invisible thing is not made of matter or is something supernatural. There could be many reasons why we human beings cannot see those things we call invisible things. For example:

    1)Things are too small for us to see like atoms or subatomic particles etc. This means we need to figure out  a way whereby we could make small things look big enough for range of our eyes to be able to see them.

    2)Things are too far away from us to see. This means we need to figure out how to make them look nearer to us so that we could see them.

    3)Thing are in the darkness where there is no light. This means we need to have light to be able to see them.

    4)Things are far too close or far to near to our eyes due to which they become out of focal range of our eyes.

    5)Things are far too bright for us to see them.

    6)Things are far too big for our eyes to see them.

    7)Things moving about much faster than the speed our eyes could catch them.

    8)Things that move far too slowly than our eyes could catch them moving.

    9)Things that are not in front of our eyes are also invisible to us because they are behind our backs.

    10)Things inside or behind other things through which our eyes cannot see.

    11)Things which blend in with the background ie camouflage

    This means unless there is a good reason for something that is physical and yet invisible, such invisible things do not exist which are in minds of people as their imaginations to which they have attached far too many foolish stories.

    This shows such people have been translating or interpreting the quranic text who had little or no knowledge about the natural world realities. This is why they ended up with translations and interpretations of the quran which are full of contradictions within the quran as well as with respect to self evident facts in the real world realities. This way of translating or interpreting the quran has to be stopped because it is utterly wrong.

    What is going to happen when we are going to stop interpreting the quran the wrong way? This is going to create a gap for a while the while people try to learn the new fact based way of interpreting the quran.

    First people need to create a proper dictionary of words used in the quran to help us human beings decode message of God properly. Why we need such a dictionary has been explained by me already in detail. It is because there is a gap between use of language by God for human beings and use of language by people between themselves. Once we have such a dictionary then because we will know many possible meanings of words which are not found in the dictionaries written by humans for humans for interaction between humans themselves only.

    Once we have such a dictionary then our next problem is to try to interpret the quranic text in its own proper context in light of purpose of its revelation. This too is not going to be easy. It is particularly going to be a huge problem for ummah because it has been enslaved by mullaans for centuries.

    Think about what mullaan have done with history of humanity. They have concocted many baseless imaginary stories that have nothing at all to with actual reality of things ie the way this world is or the way it works. Here and there they have attributed things to miracles or miraculous events etc etc. Likewise they interpreted words like malaaikah or jaann in a very imaginative way as if the quranic message is just a fiction like mythology found in greek and hindu etc books. This is how all religious people have been copying things from each other to confuse humanity and to keep it confused. So time for people to learn things properly by themselves to get out of this down hill spiral that has been ruining humanity for such a long time.       

    If I say mullaans believe God is a tyrant and to act out his tyranny he has created mankind to test them and to punish them terribly forever if they fail their test, could any mullaan or mullaan slave prove me wrong? never. This is what mullaan interpretation of the quran means if we connect the dots. So people should use their own minds and not believe nonsense of mullaans or they are doomed by their own choices so they will remain in terrible painful suffering by hands of each other for as long as they continue on this horrible path ie the mullaan islam. Actual islam is deen not mazhab. Deen of islam is a way of life that leads humanity to fulfilment of purpose for which God has created humanity for it is not a way of pooja paat.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #76 - September 20, 2021, 06:55 AM

    What has been explained already in detail brings us to question, why God has created things and particularly human beings? As explained already by me in my various posts, God decided to express himself and he did so in two ways ie through creation and revelation.

    1)God gave human beings abilities to understand creation and revelation but he left it entirely up to them to do so. The reason God gave freedom of choice to people and created them knowing nothing at all is so that people self program and find out all by themselves about God and things freely so that they could appreciate God as God wants them to do if they so choose or do their own things and face consequences God alerts or informs them about,

    2)God created human beings and gave them a task to complete or set them a goal to achieve for which he put mankind through a constant struggle or hard work. The question is, what is that assignment from God for human beings? It is to turn this world into a paradise for themselves with help and full support of each other according to the guidance provided for them by God himself. Here the first question one has to ask oneself is what the best possible life people can have in this world and how they can bring it about? What is in it for human beings? A great life in this world for human beings as well as a reward for them for doing so in hereafter as well.

    3)What is in it for God? Appreciation by human beings as God wanted for himself from human beings due to which he expressed himself and created all things including human beings. This is why human beings think of God as a being full of nothing but goodness through and through. First of all God is appreciated or highly valued or regarded because he has guided humanity towards a great life in this world and once human beings follow that guidance and create that kind of life for themselves they will appreciate God and humanity yet more but things do not end there rather God also will appreciate his human creatures for doing what he wanted them to do. The day all this finally happens humanity will be happy with its God and God will be happy with his human creatures because God and people together will have achieved their intended end goal. This is all what this creation is all about according to the quranic teaching.

    4)Now the question, how people are going to do that ie turn this world into a paradise for themselves? They are going to do that by organising and regulating themselves for this assignment given to them by God via the quran. To organise and regulate themselves into a proper human community people need a proper constitution with its proper laws. From where this proper constitution and its proper laws are supposed to come? They will come from the quran itself. How?

    Before I explain all that one has to understand what a proper constitution is about and what are proper laws of a constitution about. One has to understand that a constitution starts with aims and objectives. Why? Because aims and objectives decide where a people based upon the constitution are supposed to be heading or trying to reach in their journey or what they are intending or trying to achieve or accomplish by following this constitution.

    5)The quran decides aims and objectives of an islamic constitution in this age and it tells people the over all aim or objective set for people is to turn this world into a paradise for themselves for sake of God. The aims or objectives are decided by purpose for which God has revealed the quran or his earlier messages and for which God has created all things including human beings. No other aim or objective can be set in this constitution which could contradict its this main aim and objective.

    Since we have the main aim and objective then all other aims and objectives or laws will have to be made consistent with the main aim and objective. This is to ensure that all people who agree with the message in the quran go in the very same direction for accomplishing or fulfilling or reaching the very same goal or the same end or destination. Those who disagree with the message in the quran they can do whatever they like and face the consequences for doing so. Messed up lives in this world are the consequences of doing that as well as they will face strict justice in hereafter as well. This is why people must never even think about inflicting painful suffering upon others for their personal gains at their expense in this life let alone do them as they will end up regretting doing that when they will be made to face the consequences for doing so in hereafter as well. So none is getting away with anything wrong they think or do against anyone or anything. 

    6)Turning to formation of laws or legislation the question arises, what are guidelines in the quran for making proper laws for the quran based constitution and why are they needed? All one needs to do is pick out all the commandments from the quran which tell its supporters to do all they should and can according to the best of their God given abilities for ensuring well being of humanity as a whole just for sake of God alone without looking for any rewards from each other so that the set aims and objectives could become a reality in the real world. God has already provided us with all things we need for creating the best possible world for ourselves for as long as it will last according to the plan and purpose of God.

    Since God has provided us with all we need for the purpose of creating the best possible world  therefore ball is in our court to get up and get on with the job for doing what is told or expected of us by God. God has given us all we needed free of charge but only for fulfilling his assigned task or assignment. This is why to mismanage God given things has serious and severe consequences for us human beings as a hugely large human family. We can make lives of each other a paradise with all that as well as we can make lives of each other a living hell in this world. The choice is ours alone to do so and be rewarded or end up in terrible suffering by hands of one another. This is why we humans need to educate ourselves fully about program of God so that we could come together and make this world a paradise for all of us rather than staying ignorant and foolish and doing stupid things to each other whereby we ruin everything for ourselves as a big human family. This is what actual deen of islam is all about and the rest is all false propaganda by slaves of ignorant ruling elite, money lending elite and mullaans ie the religious elite and their touts and followers.   

    Next, pick out all the commandments of God from the quran which tell people do not do anything to anyone which may bring harm or destruction to them but do so just for sake of God alone and not for profiting from anyone else. Now we have what we can call actual sharia law based upon the quran itself. No need to detail things here as to how many departments we need to make in a governing body nor how many layers of governing body or how office holders are supposed to be selected and elected or appointed by ummah itself etc etc or what are their rights and responsibilities etc etc. They are all easy to work out because they are to be dictated by the needs of a proper human community that comes together or will come together for building such a human society. The basic thing here to realise is that islamic governing or government is not about a few people ruling all other people but about people serving God by fifilling needs of all others to the very best of their God given abilities. It is an opposite way of governing system than those invented and imposed by humans themselves in order to control all the rest by force for their own stupid and anti humanity agendas. Godly system of governing is based upon cooperation of the willing and it is a self regulating system. A system that suits only and only those who are most knowledgeable and most motivated people. This is why people who are ignorant and stubborn or arrogant and haughty can never bring about such an islamic state in the kingdom of God.     

    The sharia law is all about imposing upon people everything as a duty that helps them move in the direction set by the aims and objectives told in the islamic constitution. Not only that but it is also about stopping people from doing anything that stops or hinders or slows them down from moving in the direction set by the quranic set of aims and objectives. This is how people are suppose to live or abide by shariah law. This has nothing at all to do with mullaans' shariah, which is an absolute disgrace whereby mullaans have got very bad name for actual deen of islam by creating their own version of islam which they call religion of islam whereas islam is not a religion at all as clearly explained by me. As has been explained in detail this is the actual sharia law based properly upon the quranic guidelines and anyone who has knowledge of the quran can confirm by oneself. 

    Now that we have sharia law the question arises, how can we bring about the kingdom of God? Simply by learning actual message of the quran properly and spreading it worldwide then letting people decide whether they wish to live by rule of law of God as it is told in the quran or do they wish to live by different versions of religion and secularism. However before people make that choice it too is absolutely necessary to explain what different versions of religion and secularism are all about so that people could make real comparison between actual way of life called deen of islam and ways of life based upon idea of a combination of religion and secularism. This should clearly show why deen of islam can completely eradicate poverty and disease and all bad things in proper context of deen of islam but religion and secularism can never do so no matter what. They ( ie religion and secularism) if anything are causes of poverty and diseases and all other kind of problems humanity is living through right now and has been living through ever since it came about.

    7)Since I am mainly talking about islam here so it is important that one should come to know what is problem with religion called islam or mullaism. Religion islam is mullaan creation on behest of rulers and money lenders. Why that is the case? It is because according to mullaans' their islam has five main pillars to which all else is secondary, namely belief in parastish or pooja of only one deity, (parastish or pooja or poja or puja is all about rituals performed to show respect to only one deity in religion of islam, in short it is just a way of paying mere lip service to God and doing one's own things ie setting up one's own goals and going after them disregarding God set aims and objectives and laws). The other pillar of islam is called pooja or prayer ie flattering deity and asking for favours of the deity. Yet another pillar is called fasting from dawn till sunset daily for one month in the month of ramadan. Another pillar is called paying 2.5% of one's wealth each year to poor people. Last pillar is about visiting a small building called kaaba in makkah, in saudi arabia.

    From these most important things upon which mullaans' islam is based or founded or rests that are called pillars of islam, can anyone see anything that really deals with real world's real problems which humanity faces on daily basis? Absolutely not. So what such a religion can offer humanity so that it could be worth it for them to accept this sort of islam? Absolutely nothing. The other problem is with the mass of literature which mullaans have produced for their blind followers to read through to get hang of what beliefs and the stated rituals are about so that they could perfect them for pleasure of God. All this takes people away from what they are actually supposed to be thinking and doing for putting food on their tables. Sadly this is how almost all muslims normally waste away their lives throughout the muslim world due to their ignorance about actual message in the quran.

    Yet mullaans and their blind followers dare claim their islam is the best thing in the world because it has solutions for all human problems. The question is, something that does not even deem the real world important how can it solve problems humanity has if it does not deal with them as something important to begin with? This clearly shows how mullaans' claim about their islam is totally false. Any other religion also has alike problems because religious versions by their very nature do not deal with real world real issues. A clear cut proof against all versions of religion that they are not from one true God rather they are man made things to fool humanity about God and this clearly points to people who have invented and established them ie those who directly benefit from all this carry on ie the foolish and stupid rulers, the money lenders and mullaans or religious leadership or elite.

    8)Now that we know what is mainly wrong with all versions of religion ie they do not give priority to life in this world at all let us now turn to different versions of secularism. It is absolutely necessary to do that because secularists also claim they can make human world better. Let us talk about capitalist secularist democrats. Just one question, how can anyone who is a capitalist make this world a better place for humanity when it is all about negative competition or rivalries which creates enemies or animosities not friends or friendships? This is a clear cut way of dividing people and ruling them by fooling them through false hopes and mass propaganda through mass media outlets or media houses. This mass brainwashing work was done through temples and priests in olden times but now media sources are much more in their numbers and they have more tools at their disposals. This is why all politicians and economist lie to people twenty-four seven giving them false hopes for their future due to their own ignorance and foolishness and stupidity. Secularism is nothing more than power struggle between people be it in form of capitalism or communism or for that matter socialism.

    In this way of life people just struggle to gain domination over each other to try to reach the top by undermining each other which creates a few billionaires at the expense of all the rest who are dispossessed by this system of competition and governance. Read what I have already explained why or how these people set up charities and pay their taxes etc etc just to buy peace for themselves that is not real. If it was real they will not be wearing bullet proof vests and travelling in bullet proof vehicles with armed body guards. Is anyone really happy in this way of life? No. Many are on various kinds of drugs to avoid depression or to get through their depression if they have fallen into it already. Just as capitalism is merely abusive use of human beings by way of money mechanism, communism is exactly the same but uses position of power for abusive use of weaker members of the society. As for as socialism, it is only a mixture of the two explained whereby people are abusively used by them both ie position of power and money power.   

    This is how secular ways of life waste so many lives that fail to go up the ladder of what they call success. If we look at the real world situation capitalism and communism have ruined human world throughout the world. So much of the talent human beings are born with to be able to do a lot of good for sake of God is wasted through negative competition that keeps people busy in fighting or keeping them at war with each other all the time anywhere and everywhere throughout the human world. In secularist ideologies there is no incentive for people to do anything for anyone other than one having power or money for oneself in return and that is why these systems are based upon selfishness and greed. Therefore anyone saying so and so is a greedy or selfish person is wrong because it is fault of all people who have invented and imposed or accepted this way of life rather than coming up with something that is actually good for humanity. This is why only and only proper islamic system has a very different base or foundation for humanity to stand upon and look at things from that point of view. If people can die for God or can kill for God as the perception is created by secularists and mullaans alike then why can't they do what God really asks them to do? After all according to religious and secularists God incentive is the best incentive so why it should not work for a true islamic state that is based upon actual deen of islam? lf God and his set out main goal can be the real incentive for mankind then why not adopt the system God has revealed for humanity to govern itself by and take proper advantage of it?

    This is why people who willfully live by religion and secularism cannot be Godly people at all but they can only and only pretend to be. This is how religious and secular versions come together to produce and introduce a special kind of God who does not mind people using each other abusively because this God is ever ready for forgiving such people and all people need to do is ask God for forgiveness and all is forgiven. Not only that but there is also a belief about intercession as well by so called Godly people or holy men for the sinners. So one should be able see where all this leads humanity at the end of the day despite all the claims that are made by religious and secular people.

    9) Now that we can see how secularists do things ie use three economic models a)capitalism b)communism and c) socialism. Therefore wherever we have these systems they cannot help eliminate poverty like the model given in the quran? Why not? Because they are founded upon the idea of negative competition between people. This is how and why they turn the whole issue into a terrible power struggle or wars for getting power between individuals instead of ensuring well being of all human beings in a sensible way or the way the quran guides. In a capitalist system only and only rich people can dictate things and all the rest have no choice but to obey what is dictated or suffer the consequences. That is because only money talks or dictates things in this system and nothing else so people are forced to go along or stay hungry and naked and open to all kinds of abuses by others.

    In a communist system only the people in the position of authority have power according to their ranking and rest must fall in line as dictated because its position of power that talks or dictates things. So if anyone tries to fall out one has to face serious consequences for doing so. The mixed economy system is called socialist system which is a mixture of both capitalist and communist systems so people are abused both ways in this system as a way of life. This is why in these systems only rich get richer or only powerful get more powerful because that is the way all these systems are set up to work till nature strikes and things get out of control of humanity altogether. However none of these systems can stand if masses of people decide to join forces and replace these systems with the one told in the quran. To do so is not that easy as it may seem because getting proper education is not that easy for individuals because it too is very demanding. Not only that but education based revolution by its very nature is a very time consuming one ie look at how long it takes for individuals to become graduates ie nearly two decades. However mean while the systems we have in the world are gradually moving in that direction. So when a tipping point is reached, things will change all of a sudden.     

    10)All this should clearly explain to people why people like mullaans are employed by all of these secularists to make and keep masses foolish on behalf of capitalists or communists or socialists. This is why mullaans are stooges of rulers and money lenders who for this like reasons as well misinterpret the quran to keep people confused so that secularists could have their way for as long as masses remain foolish or stupid and they keep believing all the rubbish rulers, money lenders and mullaans tell them and their mass media has a huge impact on masses to keep them in the dark due to their own ignorance and foolishness or stupidity.

    From all this explanation one should be able to see clearly why one cannot put food on the table merely by living by a version of religion alone and praying to God etc, because God does not throw food for people as individuals from the heavens. This is why religion and secularism work in partnership with each other for using masses abusively by keeping them confused for as long as they can.  It is because God has already assigned a goal to accomplish for mankind and he has already given them for it all they needed so what is point of asking God again and again for things which he has already given to people for fulfilling his mission? Religion and secularism are made to appear to be two separate things that are always at the throats of each other but the truth is they are both in bed with each other and I have already clearly explained problems with them else where as well. Mainly they are two sides of the very same coin. Why? Because religions deals with God department through religious leaders whereby people use each other abusively in the name of God and God gets all the blame for their horrible thoughts and actions against each other. Secularism deals with worldly matters through secular leaders ie they set up things for people as to how they should get their food on their tables by controlling their livelihood etc etc.

    11)However once true interpretation of the quran shows up and people are educated enough to be able to understand things for themselves then world is going to change for the better all of a sudden. So if masses want a better world for themselves the only way they can get it is by way of studying the quranic way of life properly as well as all other ways of life so that they could see the real difference between deen of islam and all the rest of ways of life so that they could clearly decide which of them is truly good for themselves. The sooner they will do this the sooner this nightmare they are going through will end otherwise it will continue no matter what people do just as it has been going on for so long. Some people have multiple phds but yet they lack real knowledge that is absolutely necessary for them to have. This should also explain why people always talk against the quran and quran based islam and why mullaans have misinterpreted the quran the way they did beside being ignorant. Actual deen of islam as I have explained it here is a very simple and straightforward thing. 

    In light of what has been explained by me, people can see how good they are in learning things and in looking at things so that they could choose for themselves good aims and objectives to live for and to create appropriates laws to abide by. Running around like headless chickens is no answer to anything at all. If we humans will get anything worth getting it then that can only come through a proper struggle or hard work. Keeping ourselves entertained wrongly will never lead us to a better end merely by chance as it has not in the past. All goals worth achieving are very demanding and need to be taken up as missions to work towards.

    If peace, progress and prosperity of humanity is truly our goal and that this goal is truly worth it to be taken up as a mission then what is stopping us from coming together and going for it full speed ahead? This is what actual deen of islam is all about. This way of life called islam is not called islam just for sake of it rather it is a way of life that is capable of leading  humanity to a blissful, dignified and secure existence. Having a single world government body is not about having a world government but on what basis is the important things to realise and understand. Multi party democratic systems is a failure in itself because it is used for dividing people instead of getting different opinions to help people unify for a set ultimate aim and objective that ensures well being of humanity as a whole.

    So whatever we think and do, aims and objectives for which we do so are of  real fundamental or of vital importance or significance. This is what people are not paying their attention to as they are supposed to or ought to. This has to change for the best outcome if there is any to come our way. Otherwise no matter what we think and do is not going to solve our problems but instead will keep on increasing them.   

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #77 - September 23, 2021, 12:43 PM

    [size=10pt][font=Verdana][b]What has been explained already in detail brings us to question, why God has created things and particularly human beings? As explained already by me in my various posts, God decided to express himself and he did so in two ways ie through creation and revelation.

    1)God gave human beings abilities to understand creation and revelation but he left it entirely up to them to do so. The reason God gave freedom of choice to people and created them knowing nothing at all is so that people self program and find out all by themselves about God and things freely so that they could appreciate God as God wants them to do if they so choose or do their own things and face consequences God alerts or informs them about,

    2)God created human beings and gave them a task to complete or set them a goal to achieve for which he put mankind through a constant struggle or hard work. The question is, what is that assignment from God for human beings? It is to turn this world into a paradise for themselves with help and full support of each other according to the guidance provided for them by God himself. Here the first question one has to ask oneself is what the best possible life people can have in this world and how they can bring it about? What is in it for human beings? A great life in this world for human beings as well as a reward for them for doing so in hereafter as well.

    3)What is in it for God? Appreciation by human beings as God wanted for himself from human beings due to which he expressed himself and created all things including human beings. This is why human beings think of God as a being full of nothing but goodness through and through. First of all God is appreciated or highly valued or regarded because he has guided humanity towards a great life in this world and once human beings follow that guidance and create that kind of life for themselves they will appreciate God and humanity yet more but things do not end there rather God also will appreciate his human creatures for doing what he wanted them to do. The day all this finally happens humanity will be happy with its God and God will be happy with his human creatures because God and people together will have achieved their intended end goal. This is all what this creation is all about according to the quranic teaching.

    4)Now the question, how people are going to do that ie turn this world into a paradise for themselves? They are going to do that by organising and regulating themselves for this assignment given to them by God via the quran. To organise and regulate themselves into a proper human community people need a proper constitution with its proper laws. From where this proper constitution and its proper laws are supposed to come? They will come from the quran itself. How?

    Before I explain all that one has to understand what a proper constitution is about and what are proper laws of a constitution about. One has to understand that a constitution starts with aims and objectives. Why? Because aims and objectives decide where a people based upon the constitution are supposed to be heading or trying to reach in their journey or what they are intending or trying to achieve or accomplish by following this constitution.

    5)The quran decides aims and objectives of an islamic constitution in this age and it tells people the over all aim or objective set for people is to turn this world into a paradise for themselves for sake of God. The aims or objectives are decided by purpose for which God has revealed the quran or his earlier messages and for which God has created all things including human beings. No other aim or objective can be set in this constitution which could contradict its this main aim and objective.

    Since we have the main aim and objective then all other aims and objectives or laws will have to be made consistent with the main aim and objective. This is to ensure that all people who agree with the message in the quran go in the very same direction for accomplishing or fulfilling or reaching the very same goal or the same end or destination. Those who disagree with the message in the quran they can do whatever they like and face the consequences for doing so. Messed up lives in this world are the consequences of doing that as well as they will face strict justice in hereafter as well. This is why people must never even think about inflicting painful suffering upon others for their personal gains at their expense in this life let alone do them as they will end up regretting doing that when they will be made to face the consequences for doing so in hereafter as well. So none is getting away with anything wrong they think or do against anyone or anything. 

    6)Turning to formation of laws or legislation the question arises, what are guidelines in the quran for making proper laws for the quran based constitution and why are they needed? All one needs to do is pick out all the commandments from the quran which tell its supporters to do all they should and can according to the best of their God given abilities for ensuring well being of humanity as a whole just for sake of God alone without looking for any rewards from each other so that the set aims and objectives could become a reality in the real world. God has already provided us with all things we need for creating the best possible world for ourselves for as long as it will last according to the plan and purpose of God.

    Since God has provided us with all we need for the purpose of creating the best possible world  therefore ball is in our court to get up and get on with the job for doing what is told or expected of us by God. God has given us all we needed free of charge but only for fulfilling his assigned task or assignment. This is why to mismanage God given things has serious and severe consequences for us human beings as a hugely large human family. We can make lives of each other a paradise with all that as well as we can make lives of each other a living hell in this world. The choice is ours alone to do so and be rewarded or end up in terrible suffering by hands of one another. This is why we humans need to educate ourselves fully about program of God so that we could come together and make this world a paradise for all of us rather than staying ignorant and foolish and doing stupid things to each other whereby we ruin everything for ourselves as a big human family. This is what actual deen of islam is all about and the rest is all false propaganda by slaves of ignorant ruling elite, money lending elite and mullaans ie the religious elite and their touts and followers.   

    Next, pick out all the commandments of God from the quran which tell people do not do anything to anyone which may bring harm or destruction to them but do so just for sake of God alone and not for profiting from anyone else. Now we have what we can call actual sharia law based upon the quran itself. No need to detail things here as to how many departments we need to make in a governing body nor how many layers of governing body or how office holders are supposed to be selected and elected or appointed by ummah itself etc etc or what are their rights and responsibilities etc etc. They are all easy to work out because they are to be dictated by the needs of a proper human community that comes together or will come together for building such a human society. The basic thing here to realise is that islamic governing or government is not about a few people ruling all other people but about people serving God by fifilling needs of all others to the very best of their God given abilities. It is an opposite way of governing system than those invented and imposed by humans themselves in order to control all the rest by force for their own stupid and anti humanity agendas. Godly system of governing is based upon cooperation of the willing and it is a self regulating system. A system that suits only and only those who are most knowledgeable and most motivated people. This is why people who are ignorant and stubborn or arrogant and haughty can never bring about such an islamic state in the kingdom of God.     

    The sharia law is all about imposing upon people everything as a duty that helps them move in the direction set by the aims and objectives told in the islamic constitution. Not only that but it is also about stopping people from doing anything that stops or hinders or slows them down from moving in the direction set by the quranic set of aims and objectives. This is how people are suppose to live or abide by shariah law. This has nothing at all to do with mullaans' shariah, which is an absolute disgrace whereby mullaans have got very bad name for actual deen of islam by creating their own version of islam which they call religion of islam whereas islam is not a religion at all as clearly explained by me. As has been explained in detail this is the actual sharia law based properly upon the quranic guidelines and anyone who has knowledge of the quran can confirm by oneself. 

    Now that we have sharia law the question arises, how can we bring about the kingdom of God? Simply by learning actual message of the quran properly and spreading it worldwide then letting people decide whether they wish to live by rule of law of God as it is told in the quran or do they wish to live by different versions of religion and secularism. However before people make that choice it too is absolutely necessary to explain what different versions of religion and secularism are all about so that people could make real comparison between actual way of life called deen of islam and ways of life based upon idea of a combination of religion and secularism. This should clearly show why deen of islam can completely eradicate poverty and disease and all bad things in proper context of deen of islam but religion and secularism can never do so no matter what. They ( ie religion and secularism) if anything are causes of poverty and diseases and all other kind of problems humanity is living through right now and has been living through ever since it came about.

    7)Since I am mainly talking about islam here so it is important that one should come to know what is problem with religion called islam or mullaism. Religion islam is mullaan creation on behest of rulers and money lenders. Why that is the case? It is because according to mullaans' their islam has five main pillars to which all else is secondary, namely belief in parastish or pooja of only one deity, (parastish or pooja or poja or puja is all about rituals performed to show respect to only one deity in religion of islam, in short it is just a way of paying mere lip service to God and doing one's own things ie setting up one's own goals and going after them disregarding God set aims and objectives and laws). The other pillar of islam is called pooja or prayer ie flattering deity and asking for favours of the deity. Yet another pillar is called fasting from dawn till sunset daily for one month in the month of ramadan. Another pillar is called paying 2.5% of one's wealth each year to poor people. Last pillar is about visiting a small building called kaaba in makkah, in saudi arabia.

    From these most important things upon which mullaans' islam is based or founded or rests that are called pillars of islam, can anyone see anything that really deals with real world's real problems which humanity faces on daily basis? Absolutely not. So what such a religion can offer humanity so that it could be worth it for them to accept this sort of islam? Absolutely nothing. The other problem is with the mass of literature which mullaans have produced for their blind followers to read through to get hang of what beliefs and the stated rituals are about so that they could perfect them for pleasure of God. All this takes people away from what they are actually supposed to be thinking and doing for putting food on their tables. Sadly this is how almost all muslims normally waste away their lives throughout the muslim world due to their ignorance about actual message in the quran.

    Yet mullaans and their blind followers dare claim their islam is the best thing in the world because it has solutions for all human problems. The question is, something that does not even deem the real world important how can it solve problems humanity has if it does not deal with them as something important to begin with? This clearly shows how mullaans' claim about their islam is totally false. Any other religion also has alike problems because religious versions by their very nature do not deal with real world real issues. A clear cut proof against all versions of religion that they are not from one true God rather they are man made things to fool humanity about God and this clearly points to people who have invented and established them ie those who directly benefit from all this carry on ie the foolish and stupid rulers, the money lenders and mullaans or religious leadership or elite.

    8)Now that we know what is mainly wrong with all versions of religion ie they do not give priority to life in this world at all let us now turn to different versions of secularism. It is absolutely necessary to do that because secularists also claim they can make human world better. Let us talk about capitalist secularist democrats. Just one question, how can anyone who is a capitalist make this world a better place for humanity when it is all about negative competition or rivalries which creates enemies or animosities not friends or friendships? This is a clear cut way of dividing people and ruling them by fooling them through false hopes and mass propaganda through mass media outlets or media houses. This mass brainwashing work was done through temples and priests in olden times but now media sources are much more in their numbers and they have more tools at their disposals. This is why all politicians and economist lie to people twenty-four seven giving them false hopes for their future due to their own ignorance and foolishness and stupidity. Secularism is nothing more than power struggle between people be it in form of capitalism or communism or for that matter socialism.

    In this way of life people just struggle to gain domination over each other to try to reach the top by undermining each other which creates a few billionaires at the expense of all the rest who are dispossessed by this system of competition and governance. Read what I have already explained why or how these people set up charities and pay their taxes etc etc just to buy peace for themselves that is not real. If it was real they will not be wearing bullet proof vests and travelling in bullet proof vehicles with armed body guards. Is anyone really happy in this way of life? No. Many are on various kinds of drugs to avoid depression or to get through their depression if they have fallen into it already. Just as capitalism is merely abusive use of human beings by way of money mechanism, communism is exactly the same but uses position of power for abusive use of weaker members of the society. As for as socialism, it is only a mixture of the two explained whereby people are abusively used by them both ie position of power and money power.   

    This is how secular ways of life waste so many lives that fail to go up the ladder of what they call success. If we look at the real world situation capitalism and communism have ruined human world throughout the world. So much of the talent human beings are born with to be able to do a lot of good for sake of God is wasted through negative competition that keeps people busy in fighting or keeping them at war with each other all the time anywhere and everywhere throughout the human world. In secularist ideologies there is no incentive for people to do anything for anyone other than one having power or money for oneself in return and that is why these systems are based upon selfishness and greed. Therefore anyone saying so and so is a greedy or selfish person is wrong because it is fault of all people who have invented and imposed or accepted this way of life rather than coming up with something that is actually good for humanity. This is why only and only proper islamic system has a very different base or foundation for humanity to stand upon and look at things from that point of view. If people can die for God or can kill for God as the perception is created by secularists and mullaans alike then why can't they do what God really asks them to do? After all according to religious and secularists God incentive is the best incentive so why it should not work for a true islamic state that is based upon actual deen of islam? lf God and his set out main goal can be the real incentive for mankind then why not adopt the system God has revealed for humanity to govern itself by and take proper advantage of it?

    This is why people who willfully live by religion and secularism cannot be Godly people at all but they can only and only pretend to be. This is how religious and secular versions come together to produce and introduce a special kind of God who does not mind people using each other abusively because this God is ever ready for forgiving such people and all people need to do is ask God for forgiveness and all is forgiven. Not only that but there is also a belief about intercession as well by so called Godly people or holy men for the sinners. So one should be able see where all this leads humanity at the end of the day despite all the claims that are made by religious and secular people.

    9) Now that we can see how secularists do things ie use three economic models a)capitalism b)communism and c) socialism. Therefore wherever we have these systems they cannot help eliminate poverty like the model given in the quran? Why not? Because they are founded upon the idea of negative competition between people. This is how and why they turn the whole issue into a terrible power struggle or wars for getting power between individuals instead of ensuring well being of all human beings in a sensible way or the way the quran guides. In a capitalist system only and only rich people can dictate things and all the rest have no choice but to obey what is dictated or suffer the consequences. That is because only money talks or dictates things in this system and nothing else so people are forced to go along or stay hungry and naked and open to all kinds of abuses by others.

    In a communist system only the people in the position of authority have power according to their ranking and rest must fall in line as dictated because its position of power that talks or dictates things. So if anyone tries to fall out one has to face serious consequences for doing so. The mixed economy system is called socialist system which is a mixture of both capitalist and communist systems so people are abused both ways in this system as a way of life. This is why in these systems only rich get richer or only powerful get more powerful because that is the way all these systems are set up to work till nature strikes and things get out of control of humanity altogether. However none of these systems can stand if masses of people decide to join forces and replace these systems with the one told in the quran. To do so is not that easy as it may seem because getting proper education is not that easy for individuals because it too is very demanding. Not only that but education based revolution by its very nature is a very time consuming one ie look at how long it takes for individuals to become graduates ie nearly two decades. However mean while the systems we have in the world are gradually moving in that direction. So when a tipping point is reached, things will change all of a sudden.     

    10)All this should clearly explain to people why people like mullaans are employed by all of these secularists to make and keep masses foolish on behalf of capitalists or communists or socialists. This is why mullaans are stooges of rulers and money lenders who for this like reasons as well misinterpret the quran to keep people confused so that secularists could have their way for as long as masses remain foolish or stupid and they keep believing all the rubbish rulers, money lenders and mullaans tell them and their mass media has a huge impact on masses to keep them in the dark due to their own ignorance and foolishness or stupidity.

    From all this explanation one should be able to see clearly why one cannot put food on the table merely by living by a version of religion alone and praying to God etc, because God does not throw food for people as individuals from the heavens. This is why religion and secularism work in partnership with each other for using masses abusively by keeping them confused for as long as they can.  It is because God has already assigned a goal to accomplish for mankind and he has already given them for it all they needed so what is point of asking God again and again for things which he has already given to people for fulfilling his mission? Religion and secularism are made to appear to be two separate things that are always at the throats of each other but the truth is they are both in bed with each other and I have already clearly explained problems with them else where as well. Mainly they are two sides of the very same coin. Why? Because religions deals with God department through religious leaders whereby people use each other abusively in the name of God and God gets all the blame for their horrible thoughts and actions against each other. Secularism deals with worldly matters through secular leaders ie they set up things for people as to how they should get their food on their tables by controlling their livelihood etc etc.

    11)However once true interpretation of the quran shows up and people are educated enough to be able to understand things for themselves then world is going to change for the better all of a sudden. So if masses want a better world for themselves the only way they can get it is by way of studying the quranic way of life properly as well as all other ways of life so that they could see the real difference between deen of islam and all the rest of ways of life so that they could clearly decide which of them is truly good for themselves. The sooner they will do this the sooner this nightmare they are going through will end otherwise it will continue no matter what people do just as it has been going on for so long. Some people have multiple phds but yet they lack real knowledge that is absolutely necessary for them to have. This should also explain why people always talk against the quran and quran based islam and why mullaans have misinterpreted the quran the way they did beside being ignorant. Actual deen of islam as I have explained it here is a very simple and straightforward thing. 

    In light of what has been explained by me, people can see how good they are in learning things and in looking at things so that they could choose for themselves good aims and objectives to live for and to create appropriates laws to abide by. Running around like headless chickens is no answer to anything at all. If we humans will get anything worth getting it then that can only come through a proper struggle or hard work. Keeping ourselves entertained wrongly will never lead us to a better end merely by chance as it has not in the past. All goals worth achieving are very demanding and need to be taken up as missions to work towards.

    If peace, progress and prosperity of humanity is truly our goal and that this goal is truly worth it to be taken up as a mission then what is stopping us from coming together and going for it full speed ahead? This is what actual deen of islam is all about. This way of life called islam is not called islam just for sake of it rather it is a way of life that is capable of leading  humanity to a blissful, dignified and secure existence. Having a single world government body is not about having a world government but on what basis is the important things to realise and understand. Multi party democratic systems is a failure in itself because it is used for dividing people instead of getting different opinions to help people unify for a set ultimate aim and objective that ensures well being of humanity as a whole.

    So whatever we think and do, aims and objectives for which we do so are of  real fundamental or of vital importance or significance. This is what people are not paying their attention to as they are supposed to or ought to. This has to change for the best outcome if there is any to come our way. Otherwise no matter what we think and do is not going to solve our problems but instead will keep on increasing them.   [/b][/font][/size]


     what happened Mughal ? 
    you wrote in your profile Ex-Muslim
    And....and your   Signature says
    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.

    I ask you why??

    whatever.....    click the link  CHANGE YOUR PROFILE . there is ex-Muslim tag in it., make it as EXOTIC MUSLIM

    You see you are neither an  ex-Muslim nor you are reading Quran or even Islam as an historical faith., you are just a confused guy ..  anyways ., I have no time now to read your wall of text so i put  your post in those insert codes to read and respond later ..

    now let me watch Islam of a  Qatartube

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9zT-4mNpaE


    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #78 - September 24, 2021, 06:11 AM

    what happened Mughal ? 
    you wrote in your profile Ex-Muslim
    And....and your   Signature says
    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.

    I ask you why??

    whatever.....    click the link  CHANGE YOUR PROFILE . there is ex-Muslim tag in it., make it as EXOTIC MUSLIM

    You see you are neither an  ex-Muslim nor you are reading Quran or even Islam as an historical faith., you are just a confused guy ..  anyways ., I have no time now to read your wall of text so i put  your post in those insert codes to read and respond later ..

    now let me watch Islam of a  Qatartube

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9zT-4mNpaE


    with best wishes
    yeezevee




    Dear yeezevee, I have no idea how to make this change that you are suggesting eg from ex-muslim to proper muslim. This is the reason I stated that in my signature instead. Kindly let me know then I will happily make this change. Thanks in advance.

    I am not an exmuslim but I am not a blind followers of mullaans either, just to clarify my position for those unaware.

    I will try as and when possible for me to explain my current position through contents of my posts. It is because I look at things from a very different angle than the rest of humanity be they muslims or nonmuslims.

    regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #79 - September 24, 2021, 05:22 PM

    Dear yeezevee, I have no idea how to make this change that you are suggesting eg from ex-muslim to proper muslim. This is the reason I stated that in my signature instead. Kindly let me know then I will happily make this change. Thanks in advance.


    Hi Mughal. As far as I know it needs a mod to change it and the mods seem to have disappeared along with everyone else. You could try sending a PM to Luthiel who I think was the last one I saw on here.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #80 - September 25, 2021, 06:39 AM

    Hi Mughal. As far as I know it needs a mod to change it and the mods seem to have disappeared along with everyone else. You could try sending a PM to Luthiel who I think was the last one I saw on here.


    Hello dear zeca, greetings and thank you for your kindness. As you have informed me about the situation I will just leaves things as they are till forum admin does something by itself.

    regards and all the best. 

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #81 - September 25, 2021, 07:29 AM

    As I have explained already I have problems with understanding of things by almost everyone. It is because to me their explanations about things seem to be lacking rational consistency.

    Take for example, origin of existence. We are told that things popped into existence out of absolute nothing. This clearly contradicts the idea of energy being uncreated and cannot be destroyed. This means energy is ever exiting. If this is the case then the problem is, whatever is ever existing cannot change its own nature of being or it cannot be called ever existing. I mean one day something is a chicken and the next day a horse and another day a stone. It is because whatever is there in the beginning has to remain the very same in its nature of existence for ever and ever or it cannot be called ever existing if it keeps changing along the way. Energy we are told changes its shapes and forms all the time, so how can it be ever existing?

    Nothing (ie zero) is defined as having certain properties and ultimately those properties bring about all that exists. We call nothing or zero by that name because we define it for our purposes eg when we are using numbers for calculations or computing we need to add a symbol for nothing as a place holder. It does not mean nothing is something in any other context. Symbols themselves are not the things they are used for. Symbols are just symbols and nothing more which help us work things out otherwise we cannot even talk about things let alone explain them for each other. This is part of human language to use words or gestures etc for ideas or thoughts otherwise we cannot even express ourselves properly. I have explained all this already in detail.

    The simple rational fact is, if we accept there was absolutely nothing at all in the beginning then there could not come about anything at all. This is why nothing means nothing. To try to create something out of absolute nothingness is simply put nonsense because it makes absolutely no sense and it cannot make any sense ever.

    Similarly the idea of first cause is also nonsense when people try to tell us that the first cause has to be the simplest possible thing. God is a far too complex idea to take for a creator they say but when we try to get into nitty-gritty of the idea of simplest possible first cause it too makes no sense. It is because the same question pops up again and again as to where did the first cause come from or what gave rise to first cause? One should be able to see that when we try to see what properties the first cause ought to have before it could give rise to whatever exists we end up with same attributes of first cause with which we qualify God. Therefore this idea of first cause being simple makes no sense at all.

    The idea of multiverse is also nothing more than nonsense of twisted minds who are allergic to idea of God and revelation. It is because ultimately we end up with very same question ie who or what initiated multiverse? These people who are wasting their lives on feeding to each other nonsense why don't they put same amount of time into proper study of the quran? People even before thinking say, the quran is nothing but utter nonsense.

    Think about it, the quran has been there for last 1500 years and we are 8 billion people on the face of the earth today. How many people have thought out of this much human population to write books like the quran. None, why they did not? Why muhammad was the only person who ever came to humanity with a book like the quran. The quran if it could give people what they needed or wanted then why no one else wrote such a book ever again? If muhammad wanted to fool humanity then so could others by writing even better books for this purpose than the quran but they did not. This is why the quran cannot be dismissed as a nonsense. This is why it deserve proper study by humanity.


    The question that who created God is nonsense question. People are missing the point I am making. I am saying that any being that is said to be ever existing, for it to qualify as such, must remain the very same through and through otherwise if it changes its nature with time then it does not and cannot qualify as ever existing.

    The universe is not ever exiting because we can clearly see it changing in its nature with time. We can say this universe was not there 15 billion years ago with reasonable certainty but it is here today. Not only that but it also went through many phases to be what it is today since its origin.

    As for the question about who created God, God is not a created being to begin with because whatever is created, it is a created being and not a God. It is a wrong question to ask. The very reason for which we ask the question as to where things have come from is because we see them coming from each other. However when we reach the end of chain of cause and effect then we are stuck because we are here already and we could not be here all by ourselves. So we assume a creator who himself is uncreated. To take this further we bring in concept of revelation to support this assumption or claim.

    This is why the scripture becomes an utmost important thing and this is why its proper interpretation also becomes absolutely necessary. Dismissing all this means living and dying in utter confusion for humanity. It is because then humanity is shutting all doors to reaching the truth and living a purposeful life. This is why no sensible person can ever claim nonexistence of God and his revelation because doing so is impossible to prove. While on the other hand it is possible to prove existence of God through rational arguments using the creation of God and the revelation of God as evidences.

    God has two types of attributes a)which describe nature of God and b) which describe capabilities of God. Likewise the quran is word of God because the information given in it comes from God but the book we have is man made. Let me try and explain it in a bit of detail. You see, when we talk to each other using a phone, the voices we hear are not our own voices rather they are electronically created voices by way of microphones and speakers using electronic circuits called amplifiers. However the information is our own and not generated by electronic circuits. They are simply put a medium for transmission of information. Likewise God used mediums to convey his messages to humanity. This is how the quran is word of God in one sense but human work in the other sense.

    Some people also say people who believe in only one God are also wrong because they do not believe in millions of others Gods that other people believe in. This way of looking at things is very wrong because if most people accept or believe in wrong ideas due to not looking at the required evidences properly that does not mean that all people should accept or believe in wrong ideas. Concepts should be judged individually by people to see upon what evidences they are based and if they are based upon reasonable evidences then they should be accepted otherwise rejected. The God who speaks in the quran provides sufficient evidences to prove his existence and if people will truly understand the quran it will lead them to a life they cannot even imagine. So humanity has a win win situation by understanding, accepting and abiding by actual message in the quran properly otherwise no matter what, humanity is in a terrible loss and it will remain so as it has been till it sees and accepts and adopts the truth the quran speaks. Just read surah alasr 103.   

    Why people are justifying their staying away from the proper study of the quran merely on basis of mullaan nonsense? We know for sure that mullaans were and still are front men of rulers and money lenders. None can prove these like people good human beings at all. It is because these people are predators and hunters of humanity and that is what they are doing right now before our own very eyes. This is why none can justify what philosophers and scientist and mullaan or rules and money lenders are doing to the human world.

    How people can organise and regulate themselves and for what end is very easy to decide in light of the quran. Why don't people ask themselves such questions? All people need to do is bring about a constitution and its laws based upon the quranic guidelines and see what happens in the human world.

    The quran talks about change of QIBLAH, does anyone know what is a qiblah? The quran tells us God does not change condition of a people unless they change themselves, what does it mean in the proper context of the quranic text? Here God is talking about two ways of life people can choose to live by ie one way could lead them to their unity therefore to peace between themselves as a brotherhood of humanity and because they are all united and at peace with one another they can go full speed ahead for their progress whereby they could end up prosperous as a proper human community in the kingdom of one true God, The other way of life is what some people invent and impose it upon others for their personal gains at their expense. This leads mankind to disunity or rifts through disputes or differences or conflicts therefore all kinds of fights and wars. This is why humanity ends up in a state or condition that we see it in right now before our very eyes unless we are blind both mentally and physically.

    This is what qiblah is all about ie choosing right aim and objective for a constitution so that we end up in the right place or arrive at the right destination. It is not about a small cubical building called kaba in makkah saudi arabia. Such are false interpretations of the quranic text by mullaans. This is why if people want a life of paradise in this very world then they must try and understand the quranic text in its own proper context which is, the quran is a book of guidelines for a proper islamic constitution and its laws as I have clearly explained already. This is actual shariah of deen of islam. Not mullaism stupidity which ignorant masses follow blindly and call it shariah law.

    Look at surah 114 ie annaas the very last surah of the quran. Here God is telling his messenger to tell to mankind to seek refuge in God. The question is what is refuge and from what and why or how? How can God take care of people? Simply through giving them a way of life to live by whereby people do not do wrongs to each other. Not only that but also they must not leave any stone unturned in doing all that is good for ensuring well being of each other for sake of God. God also talks about people who will conspire against all this so people of God must remain alert and aware so that they are not taken by surprise by their opponents. So the quran is not an old rubbish book but the book for the best possible future of humanity.

    Look at surah alkausar ie 108. God is saying he has given to humanity all that is good ie an ocean or sea of goodness through his revealed messages. In short there is nothing good that could come from God for humanity but it is part of his revealed messages throughout times and places. So individuals are told to work hard for unity of mankind under this aim and objective and be ready to make needed sacrifices in this cause. Then it is told that those who will oppose this way of life will perish and they have been perishing always and the same is true and before our very eyes. Look at what mullaans have made of this surah. This should open eyes of those who condemn the quran for foolishness of mullaans as well as their own foolishness for failing to think at a higher level. 

    Look at surah allahab 111. This has nothing at all to do with uncle of the messenger of God and his wife. It is talking about all such leaders of nations or communities who live by a way of life that is wrong whereby they lead their people into life of hell instead of life in a paradise that is created by people themselves according to a society building plan given to them by God. This is what the quran is about ie a proper human community building plan from God. You can never build a proper human community by uttering words like there is only one deity for worship or pooja paat or by waving your behinds in the air and rubbing your noses on the ground or by staying hungry and thirsty or by paying 2.5% of your wealth once in a year or by visiting a cube in makkah once in a life time. These are clear falsehoods attributed to message of God by low lives in human world.

    What is surah 110 annasar about? Here again God is saying whenever his help comes and opens the way for mankind, you will see people entering way of life called deen of islam in huge numbers or multitudes. How does God help? By revealing to mankind how to live properly in this world. Then it is up to people to struggle and strive for that kind of life in this world and accomplish it for themselves. God only shows the way and to walk upon that way is up to people themselves. So when you people see the way and people start joining it then work harder to organise and regulate them into a proper human community. It is one thing to learn the message of God properly for oneself and another thing to pass it on properly to others. Only when these two things are done properly that people will come together as a proper human community and then a kingdom will come about in kingdom of God based upon proper guidance of God. All these very clear messages have been misinterpreted by mullaans to mislead mankind. This is why mullaans are condemned as shaitaans by the quran. People are warned by the quran to stay clear of mullaans. If people will start understanding the quran in its proper context their perception about the quran will definitely change for the best.

    Here is how people can organise and regulate themselves properly as a proper human community in the kingdom of God. If people look at our world, it is full of all kinds of resources for the good of humanity to ensure its well being for sake of God. All people need to do is organise and regulate themselves to benefit from all this properly as a human family. We do not need to exploit or manipulate or use each other abusively to achieve this goal. This is why we human beings do not need any kinds of tricks and mechanism for exploiting or manipulating or abusively using each other. Organising and regulating simply means knowing tasks needs to be carried out and dividing them between ourselves and then carrying them out as a proper human family for sake of God. We still need to do what we are already doing but for a different end which kicks out the idea of exploitation or manipulation or abusive use of each other by each other for our personal gains at each other's expense.

    Deen of islam is all about a complimentary human society where in people join each other for sake of God and do all that is needed done for ensuring well being of all. It is not a utopia but a pragmatic things ie practically possible thing to do for humanity. All we need for doing that is sensible people not stupid people who do not know nor learn sense of how to make proper sense of things.     

    People get a huge fright when we talk about a single world government, why? Because they are frightened of what is going on in the world in each of the countries in the world. What they fail to realise is the fact that those governments are just controlling freaks because they have no properly educated people therefore they have no proper constitutions and laws so the end result is the kind of governments we have. If we have a properly educated people who bring about a proper constitution with proper laws then the whole perspective changes. Deen of islam is not at all about some people controlling others on willy-nilly grounds through exploitative or manipulative or abusive constitutions and their laws rather it is about all people serving God as his workers according to the best of their God given abilities to ensure well being of all human beings as much as it is humanly possible for mankind. So it is very clear that deen of islam is most superior way of life and humanity has yet to discover it because it has been buried under a lot of rubbish that has been thrown at it by mullaans on behest f rulers and money lenders for fooling ignorant masses. They have no idea who is their true friend with proper knowledge of things and who is their true enemy due to his stupidity and stubbornness.

    This is why when all people can fit in with each other excellently as a proper human family and none can be exploited or manipulated or abused by any one else then none can be allowed to disturb that equilibrium or the whole thing can fall apart which can ruin many lives as the case is in front of our own very eyes right now. Deen of slam teaches all to be on the very same page and not to try to dominate each other by undermining each other for personal gains at each other's expense. Deen of islam teaches positive competition between people whereby each person ought to try to do better than what someone else has done for the betterment of the proper human community. It bans negative competition or rivalries whereby people try to dominate each other by undermining each other for their personal gains at the expense of each other as we are seeing throughout the human world.

    You will see youtube is full of videos whereby mullaans are busy trying to justify their islam such as islam is very good for women. How can it be if it has not done any good for its people for centuries and this includes both men and women? if men have been abused then what chance is there for women to not to be abused? Look at what is happening to muslim children all over the islamic world. Religious muslims take their children as their personal properties just like everything else and that is how they use and treat them. If anything they are worst than secularists because they do so in the very name of one true God. Had they taken children as gifts from God for the good of humanity then they will have raised them as soldiers of God who will have worked for the good of mankind by ensuring well being of mankind. Look at any religious population anywhere in the world they are all the same. Having no sense of making proper sense of things. This is why hindus are abusing and killing hindus and same is true about parsis, jews, christian, muslims or sikhs etc etc. The very same is true about all secularists everywhere in the world. We can see how capitalists and communists are at each other's throats. Each person is competing against all others for one's personal gains at their expense. So it is not very difficult to see how stupid people think they are very clever.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #82 - September 25, 2021, 08:02 AM

    Hello dear zeca, greetings and thank you for your kindness. As you have informed me about the situation I will just leaves things as they are till forum admin does something by itself.


    Yes, that's fair enough. The signature explains it anyway.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #83 - November 25, 2021, 05:54 AM

    So far I have explained vital importance of knowing some very basic things but now I am going to try and explain what is aql and what is ilm etc.

    What is aql and what is ilm and how are they obtained or gotten hold of by mankind? Word aql is from root AIN, QAAF and LAAM. This root has many meanings and likewise word ILM is from root AIN, LAAM and MEEM. This root also has many meanings. In one sense root aql means ability to figure out things but in another sense it means to make proper sense of the information one has or is given to one. In this sense aql is a thing that comes to one by learning and that takes time. In other words to be sensible one has to learn sense to be sensible ie one is not born with having sense or understanding of all things rather one needs to get information about things and then one has to make sense of it. So those who do not learn sense of making proper sense of things they remain senseless or foolish.

    Word ilm in one sense means information about something and in another sense it means knowing something or having proper understanding of something. People can give information to each other about things but they cannot give their understanding of something to others. This is why education is about helping others with information so that they could try and understand things their own way.

    In one sense aql and ilm are gifts from God ie in sense of ability to figure things out and in sense of revealed information from God. A person is born with this ability this is why one is able to make sense of things as soon as one is born and and starts sensing things all around oneself. However when it comes to making proper sense of things one has to make one's own effort to learn sense of making proper sense of things by collecting and processing information about things. One gets better and better at doing that with time and more and more information one gets ie practice or experience makes one better or perfect at it. 

    As for ilm, it is all about learning information about things and making sense of that information so that one could come to understanding of the thing one wishes to know. To have proper knowledge of something one has to know some aspects that are involved in learning knowledge about things.

    I am discussing these things because unless people have these abilities and they use them appropriately they can never make sense of anything at all let alone make proper sense of this world or revelation of God. This is why those who endeavour to learn sense of making proper sense of things become sensible and those who do not remain senseless and foolish regardless what they claim to be by their own mouths.

    Muslims are in dire state of existence because they made two main mistakes. One, they ignored helping people to learn the language of the quran and the other, they failed to interpret the quranic text in its purpose based proper contexts. This is what caused all the problems for muslims and nonmuslims alike throughout the world.

    Humanity in general has made major errors in understanding God related concepts. This is why they ended up portraying God as a monster or a tyrant or a bully or a cruel being as if God has no goodness in him as a being to be appreciated for. God is projected by religions as a being who has no sense and he does things like a spoiled senseless child.

    Unless one gets the basics right as I have explained them nothing else can be understood at all. Most people who claim to be religious believe that sense of making proper sense of things or knowledge is gift of God or is given by God. This is not true. Why not? Because God only gives people his revelations and abilities or potential or talents and not what people are supposed to get or obtain all by themselves. God is only supposed to provide people with things they need to carry out his program to fulfil his purpose for which he has created them but rest has to be their own effort. This is why people must become sensible and knowledgeable or learned or wise.

    Becoming sensible is all about getting better and better in rational thinking or rationality and becoming learned is all about having a lot of purpose based information and making proper sense of it. The more human beings do this the better they become at it.

    What I have explained is nothing new to anyone because we all go through exactly the same processes in this regard. What is new for people is how I put things together and explain things in a very different context for a very different purpose.

    So let me now try to explain the process of learning knowledge ie how we come to know something the way it should be known. Here we will have an explanation in form of coded gestures or noises we call words as I have explained in detail already. We need these codes because without them we can never make any sense of anything at all. If I say to someone please write a letter for me, what one needs to know before one could fulfil my this request?

    One will first of all have to know what do I mean by the words I have used. This means one has to know application or relation of these words to things or actions. If one has no idea what is writing or letter etc etc then one cannot carry out this request. Now even if one has understanding of these applications and relations or connections between words and things that are talked about still one cannot carry out the request. It is because one has to go through a learning process to experience all this by oneself by actually doing things directly.

    It is because one cannot write a letter just because I asked for it. One has to know how to write things as well as what writing a letter actually involves. Look back in your own life as a child and see how you could not read or write or do anything at all till someone taught you how to do it till after a lot of very hard work and practice. Same is very obvious in science classes in schools or universities. How teachers show or demonstrate to kids to do things but they still hesitate to do them on their own and they keep trying till they get things right. So one can see learning knowledge is a complete process or one only knows things partially.

    This is why engineers go through a lot of practical training just like lawyers and doctors etc etc. Normally when we ask each other do you know this or that the answer is a quick yes without any thinking or reflection. However the answer involves a lot of thinking and reflection because to say I know and to actually know things involved a huge process of learning behind it.

    When people talk in general about things they just tell stories about things but they have no real knowledge about things. People use words without relating or connecting them to realities or concepts they are supposed to be expressing through them.

    The other problem for people regarding defining knowledge is, they talk far too much nonsense instead of looking at it in a purposeful way. By looking at things in an aimless way we end up wasting our time as well as get more and more confused by going in circles. 

    This is why people do not know what aql is or what ilm is. This is why most people are superstitious or religious who love making up things or making things mysterious or believing in made up things for no sensible purpose at all. The same is true about scientists and philosophers. Scientists keep coming up with nonsense theories and philosophers with nonsense explanations of things. All because they do not look at things objectively or purposefully. The result is over skepticism about things which turns people into individuals who are full of doubts about things and suspicious about anything and everything. On the other extreme people turn mental slaves believing in anything and everything senselessly. This makes people utterly useless for actual life and living it properly.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #84 - November 25, 2021, 01:57 PM

    hello Mughal  .. another year gone and it is same old wall of text from you ., it is same long winding pots filled with fallacies., Anyway I am glad to read your words.. all is good but these words are nonsense...   
    ...................... The same is true about scientistsand  philosophers.,   Scientists keep coming up with nonsense theories and philosophers with nonsense explanations of things

    forget philosophers but when it comes to science that is nonsense., Science does not work like that .. SCIENCE QUESTIONS EVERYTHING AND EVERY THEORY ., It is NOT faith . yes   scientists do come up theories and they test those theories by questioning them., and they do thorough experiments on such proposed theories   If every question answered then they keep the theories to explain an observed phenomenon., otherwise they will throw theory/theories  out of the window.  Perfect examples are that big bang theory or theory of biological  as well as human evolution on planet earth .,  I am sure you know the difference between faith and science  such as

    The empirical versus the supernatural.............
    ......Open versus closed belief systems..........
    .....Evolving versus absolute knowledge.........
    .....Objectivity versus subjectivity.............
    ................etc..etc.................




    and give you some simple of you tubes which will help you the what scientists do in the laboratory as well as with theories

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CGWuUuduGQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkAxRY41ndU

    that is  how you debate and discuss.. NOT WRITE WALL OF TEXT and say I am only the person who understand faith and science ..

    well may be I will see you in the next year ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Previous page 1 2 3« Previous thread | Next thread »