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 Topic: Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?

 (Read 7343 times)
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  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #30 - December 31, 2020, 02:48 PM

    Quote from:
    The quranic text therefore must be interpreted rationally and not irrationally as mullaans have done for last 1400 years


    rationalising the irrational is what mullahs do too. you simply believe their conclusions are nonsensical whilst yours are sensible. however, you are both misguided. garbage in, garbage out.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #31 - January 01, 2021, 10:01 AM

    rationalising the irrational is what mullahs do too. you simply believe their conclusions are nonsensical whilst yours are sensible. however, you are both misguided. garbage in, garbage out.

    that is another good one from crumble .,  but I was trying to say something on "LOGICAL FALICIES "   that are filled in  each and every Mughal's posts .. So i  wanted to give him a pdf book link on "LOGICAL FALICIES ".,  In searching it I fell in to a trap of reading this booklet     and  I am putting the link here for readers  to get trapped  Cheesy Cheesy

    Quote


    that is one heck of a funny booklet ., ..lol..  anyways Mughal., as a "FAITH HEAD"., you are a wonderful person   but sorry to say this  "every post of yours is filled with logical fallacies.,  So please  read some literature on that "logical fallacies "   start with wiki   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #32 - March 01, 2021, 05:07 AM

    Time for me to start explaining things in a bit more detail which people still do not understand after my explanations.

    Let me start with raising a question, are people born scientists?

    Anyone and everyone is welcome to answer this question.

     

     

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #33 - March 01, 2021, 02:49 PM

    Time for me to start explaining things in a bit more detail which people still do not understand after my explanations.

    who said folks/readers do not/did not  understand your explanations and reasons dear Mughal??  I think most of them  do understand your point of view.,  But Point out to me your previous posts or write some  pointers  that you think people did not understand after you explained them .,

      I have not seen any Quantum mechanics in your posts that one need  to have loaded mathematics background  to understand the trade tricks of QM... or may be  your explanations are inadequate and also it  is possible for  some folks like me who are dumb can not understand your logic  .. some guys are  just plain dumb
    Quote
    Let me start with raising a question, are people born scientists?

     Not just scientists ., every one and every species has that in-born abilities , intelligence  and scientific thought process  to analyze a given situation or subject  and act according to the best of their abilities.,    well let me watch these tubes for now

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VUHdu_g8ok

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQMP74-XziI
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #34 - March 03, 2021, 06:38 PM

    who said folks/readers do not/did not  understand your explanations and reasons dear Mughal??  I think most of them  do understand your point of view.,  But Point out to me your previous posts or write some  pointers  that you think people did not understand after you explained them .,

      I have not seen any Quantum mechanics in your posts that one need  to have loaded mathematics background  to understand the trade tricks of QM... or may e could be your explanations are inadequate and also it could be some folks like me are dumb .. just plain dumb  Not just scientists ., every one and every species has that in-born abilities , intelligence  and scientific thought process  to analyze a given situation or subject  and act according to the best of their abilities.,    well let me watch these tubes for now

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VUHdu_g8ok

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQMP74-XziI
     


    Thank you dear yeezevee for your interesting reply. The reason I raised the question that I have is, because we need to sort out the fallacy question.

    I have explained things on basis of process of elimination which we humans use almost anywhere and everywhere when things are beyond our capability to know something about something with 100% certainty. It saves us time and energy and also brings things within our grasp which are otherwise beyond capability of us human beings.

    In my view God does exist and there is a way to find this out to a reasonable degree of certainty. We humans are born scientists because we learn things by way of trial and error or we use trial and error method for our learning because that is the way God has created us. If God has created us this way then why will he give us a book that is irrational? This is why we need to do the very same with alleged God sent book as we do with the universe and things in it ie we must try or use trial and error method for its proper understanding otherwise we are not doing justice to God, his revelation and ourselves. It is this against what God warns us in the quran. That if we will ignore his advised way of life then we will have no life because in that case we will make certainly end up making lives of one another a living end which is right in front of our own very eyes.   

    Trial and error method kicks in as soon as we open our eyes in this world. We have no idea what is what. Not only about other things but even about our own very selves. We do not know anything about our own bodies or body parts and what they are or what they are for or what they are supposed to do. Gradually we start using our senses eg eyes, ears, noses or tongues or sense of touch or feeling. This is why the saying, practice makes us human beings perfect.

    With our senses and rest of our body parts and God given things we start interacting with things or experimenting with things on basis of trial and error method. This is how we gradually learn to figure out things for ourselves about ourselves as well as other things. In order to do that we make countless mistakes along the way till we get hang of things to some degree. In a way the world and things in it acts as our toys for us to play with and learn or find out things. We remain kids always in this world of ours. This is our direct method of learning and we call it our life experience which proves the point that we humans are created as scientists by God for finding out things for ourselves with as much certainty as is humanly possible for us.

    Since as individuals we cannot know everything all by ourselves by our direct experience or interaction with things therefore we also use indirect method of learning as well and that is why we ended up building learning institutions such as schools, colleges and universities etc and developed ways of ensuring how to trust or not to trust others. This is where from come our rules of judgement that we use in the court of law for deciding our disputes or disagreements about things. In these institutions we share our direct experiences or experiments with things with each other to widen our knowledge about things and become wiser with help of one another despite being at odds with each other. This is how with time we are getting better and better at learning and doing things.

    So for I have fully established the fact that the only way for us to learn things is trial and error method. This is how we learned to use our senses for recognising things with help of our memories. Once we saw a thing the very first time and we remembered it in our heads then if we saw it again, we recognised it. Likewise if we heard a sound and heard it again, we recognised it and so on and so forth.

    Likewise when we tried to learn reading or writing, we tried things again and again till we got them right enough to serve our purposes just like learning how to drive a car for example. It was the way we learned how to sit or stand or walk or talk etc etc. It is a time tested method that never failed us and will not fail us so long as we keep using this method rather than accepting things on face value or taking them for granted. Likewise we have been learning from each other always and benefitted from that so much. This is why there should not be any questions against our learning methods or rules of judgement in anyone's mind.

    The other thing that need clarification is, we hear people say, follow the evidence and go where it leads. Is this statement true? No, it is not on its own till it is explained a bit and understood properly for what it is really worth. It is because in this case word evidence has two meanings a)an object or thing and b)its explanation. People need to clearly distinguish between these two because each of them plays a very different role.         

    An object is just an object and does not say anything to us about itself. In this sense evidence cannot lead us anywhere because it goes nowhere to take us with it. It 100% depends upon our own minds how we explain it and only and only that explanation can lead us wherever it takes us. This is why we all follow our own explanations about things wherever they lead us. People have very wrong idea that an evidence on its own is a proof of something. It is not. It is the best possible explanation of the evidence that is the proof. This is how we prove any case in a court of law by putting up our best possible explanations about the available evidences and then the one that is better wins the day.

    Let me try and expand this a bit more. Let us say that two people were walking along on a road and they came across a brick wall. One of them says, I see a wall but the other denies it and says, no, there is nothing there. How is the one who says there is a wall going to prove to the other who says there is no wall that there is really a wall in order to convince him? Yes, you are right, he will have to come up with an idea from his head from inside his head to sort out this fellow. This idea is the explanation and it will prove beyond any reasonable doubt that there is actually a brick wall there. So he tells the other fellow bring your head near me and when he gets hold of his head he bangs it into the brick wall. Then he says to him, can you now see there is a really a brick wall there? This is how the evidence and its related proper explanation work together.

    Just the evidence or just the explanation do not prove anything at all or lead anywhere. We need something there to start with. if there is nothing there then we do not need any explanation for it either. Explanation only becomes necessary for us if we have something there which needs a sensible explanation for us to understand it the best we can. No explanation is any good unless it help us solves our facing problem or answers our question as best as it is humanly possible. Not only that but any method or explanation that leads us nowhere or remains open ended can destroy us in various ways because it can lead us into hopelessness and boredom or depression. Lack of proper explanation destroys us because to live in the dark or confusion throws us in identity crisis. We need real answers not baseless explanations to live by. This is why our human world is full mentally unstable people who are on anti depressants but they cannot help people if they mentally confused about things. Nothing cure this problem otherwise lots people will not be alcoholic or drug addicts.

    It is because we humans have no idea as to how to live in this world properly so we look for happiness in all sorts of wrong ways and in all the wrong places which ruin our lives. Right from the day we are born we need things to keep us amused or entertained. Nothing can entertain us for the whole of our lifetime other than our greed for learning knowledge about the universal realities and revelation of God. We get bored easily. We all need brainwashing or indoctrination or addition otherwise we cannot live our lives. Confusion or mysteries or perplexities or living in the darkness of ignorance kills us. This is why if we will not get addicted or brain washed or indoctrinated the right way then we will become victims of addiction or brainwashing or indoctrination the wrong way. We start programming our minds ourselves and once we become programmed the wrong way then it is very hard to become unwound unless we reach a do or die situations. This is why we need to have a solid foundation to base our learning upon as well as our education system so that we do not end up with nothing at all or nowhere at all.

    The purpose of our education should be to unite us (and not divide us) for sake of peace between us on a basis which helps us progress and prosper as a proper human community in the kingdom of God.   This is why we need to put our coming generations on the right footing that makes sense and ensures our best possible future. Each and every one running around like headless chicken is no way to live our lives. One only has to look at how people are living and what are their lives based upon. We have a huge group of people in the world with religious mindset, attitude and behaviour and we also have an even bigger group of people who have secular mindset, attitude or behaviour. I have already explained this and the effect or end result or outcome or consequence of all this. This means if we have any sense then we must change our ways of life to a best possible way of life, which is deen of islam. I will try and explain this latter when I start discussing the surahs of the quran in detail to help people see what the real message in the quran is. The quran has nothing to do with battles between mullaans and scientists or philosophers. It is because none of them actually knows what the real message in the quran is for humanity. In our world look at how men treat women and vice versa or how parents treat children and vice versa and how we all treat each other in our wider human society or community. While we have these like situations in our human world people are wasting their time on entertainments instead of trying to find way out of this situation. Men are running after women and vice versa most of the time and wasting their time and energy intsead of doing something useful with their God gifted lives. All because people see no point in their life and living it properly.

    Let us now also look at the method called process of elimination. It is used very, very widely eg in all the sciences or fields of knowledge or technology and the reason for that is because it works perfectly for us to help us find out things for ourselves as much as or as far as we possibly can. I used all these methods in my explanations which have been called fallacies. This is why I saw the need for my given explanations to expand them further for better understanding of people as to where I am coming from and why. The reason we need to use this method is because we humans are not omniscient or omnipresent so we cannot know everything there is to know no matter how hard we try. So elimination method helps us overcome our this very limitation to a great extend.

    For example, in my posts I already talked about scriptures people claim they are revealed by God. I said in there, only the quran is possible candidate in that case because all other scriptures in the world themselves contradict their followers who say they are God revealed scripture because names of authors of all those scriptures are known and accepted by people themselves who claim them to be God revealed or God inspired. I talked there in as an example the new testament which contains writings by various people instead of God eg matthew, mark, luke or John etc etc. This saves us ample time in studying and wasting our time on those scriptures for this purpose. For other purposes they are highly useful but we need to be sensible enough to be able to use them properly.

    So let us see what a doctor does in case of a patent. First of all, no one goes to a doctor till one needs attention of a doctor due to being something wrong with the person. When someone comes to a doctor, the doctor uses elimination method by questioning the patient ie about what brings him to the doctor. The doctor does not start with examining the patient all over for every possible thing which could go wrong with a person first to find out what is wrong with him all by himself because it is a waste of time method. Elimination method saves a lot of time and energy which can be used on doing other useful things. This is how some ideas we humans come up become very helpful for us to solve our problems. Here when doctors asks question of a patient as to what is wrong with the patient, he eliminates all other numberless possibilities. Doctor then starts digging deeper and deeper in order to get closer and closer to the actual problem. I mean through trial and error method we have built up a data base of problems by now eg we know thousands of viral diseases already. We know what a normal human body is and what are its parts so if we see anything that is not supposed to be part of the normal human body then we know it is some kind of foreign element in the body. This is why we compare what we find out with our already existing data base and if it does not already exist in our catalogue then we catalogue it for our future reference or use. 

    Now I want people to find any fallacies in my these methods and explanations if they can. When I explain things I look at things in various way in order to help people understand the issue under consideration rather than trying to explain the methods I am using. The reason is I assumed people will know these things already.  Now at least people should know things if they did not know them before.

    Now the issue of God. As explained already, this is how after we are born in this word we witness the universe and things in it and therefore questions rise in our minds where has all this come from and for what purpose and how does it fulfil that purpose etc etc. So we come across the creation as the evidence and the revelation as its explanation allegedly both from God. This is why we must examined them both properly and sincerely to see if that is really true. Here we must apply elimination method because we have no capability of searching out God all by ourselves. Moreover even if there is such a God who has not given us any message to explain things for us then there is no point in searching for such a God who has nothing to do with his creation and creatures. This is why concept of God without concept of revelation is no use for us because it does not solve our problem which is, what is purpose of God for creating us and what we need to do to fulfil that purpose or what is our part in this grand scheme of things as planned by God for us. This is why God concept without revelation of God does not and cannot work. Not only that but any purpose we attribute to God must be in line with our observations of his creation or creatures.

    This is why we must come up with an explanation of things that clearly shows to us that it works ie it explains all we need to know about our existence and purpose. How we can come to know this with reasonable certainty? By using the methods I explained just now ie we must start with trial and error method for trying to understand both the alleged creation of God as well as alleged revelation of God. Scientist and philosophers on their own independent of creation and revelation can never explain realities behind these two things. It is due to trial and error method I talked about God of the gaps. Not the way the scientist talk about God because they are completely ignorant of the message of God. This I will prove when I discuss the quranic surahs.

    Why God of the gaps is right way to go? Because it is wrong and not only wrong but utmost dangerous to go by first assuming there is no God and then looking for evidences to disprove existence of God. This is going to take humanity forever and meanwhile whatever is happening in the human world is not acceptable ie look at how mankind are putting each other through hell by living senseless and immoral lives. The same problem I have with people who think this world is not real. Such argument are utterly none because what matters for us is, our painful suffering by hands of each other which is absolutely real for us and that is what really matters. We cannot know actual realities of things all by ourselves but by using whatever is in our world and what it does and how it does it we can come up with good enough explanation of things which can make our lives as if we are in paradise in this world with help and full support of each other rather than fighting against each other for our petty personal gains at each other's expense.

    How many people in the world are happy with their lives? None. We each have something to bother us. This is why we all need to put aside all scriptures that do not say they are from God and stick to the quran and do our best to decode it for ourselves and our future generations. This is a task no one has touched yet to the degree it needs to be touched.

    Here is a question for each and every person on this forum be one muslim or nonmuslim. Please explains why in the quran God advises people to read taooz before starting their reading of the quran? The answer to this question will decide how many and much people really know about the quran. This is particularly for those who say they have read the quran and there is nothing sensible in it.

    Regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #35 - March 04, 2021, 09:10 AM

    Quote from:
    This idea is the explanation and it will prove beyond any reasonable doubt that there is actually a brick wall there. So he tells the other fellow bring your head near me and when he gets hold of his head he bangs it into the brick wall.


    banging ones head against a brick wall - sums up the experience of reading your overlong posts.

    Quote from:
    Here is a question for each and every person on this forum be one muslim or nonmuslim. Please explains why in the quran ...


    forget about muslim binaries or quranic circulars. open your mind and close that book.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #36 - March 04, 2021, 01:41 PM

    Thank you dear yeezevee for your interesting reply. The reason I raised the question that I have is, because we need to sort out the fallacy question.

    I have explained things on basis of process of elimination which we humans use almost anywhere and everywhere when things are beyond our capability to know something about something with 100% certainty. It saves us time and energy and also brings things within our grasp which are otherwise beyond capability of us human beings.

    In my view God does exist and there is a way to find this out to a reasonable degree of certainty. We humans are born scientists because we learn things by way of trial and error or we use trial and error method for our learning because that is the way God has created us. If God has created us this way then why will he give us a book that is irrational? This is why we need to do the very same with alleged God sent book as we do with the universe and things in it ie we must try or use trial and error method for its proper understanding otherwise we are not doing justice to God, his revelation and ourselves. It is this against what God warns us in the quran. That if we will ignore his advised way of life then we will have no life because in that case we will make certainly end up making lives of one another a living end which is right in front of our own very eyes.   

    Trial and error method kicks in as soon as we open our eyes in this world. We have no idea what is what. Not only about other things but even about our own very selves. We do not know anything about our own bodies or body parts and what they are or what they are for or what they are supposed to do. Gradually we start using our senses eg eyes, ears, noses or tongues or sense of touch or feeling. This is why the saying, practice makes us human beings perfect.

    With our senses and rest of our body parts and God given things we start interacting with things or experimenting with things on basis of trial and error method. This is how we gradually learn to figure out things for ourselves about ourselves as well as other things. In order to do that we make countless mistakes along the way till we get hang of things to some degree. In a way the world and things in it acts as our toys for us to play with and learn or find out things. We remain kids always in this world of ours. This is our direct method of learning and we call it our life experience which proves the point that we humans are created as scientists by God for finding out things for ourselves with as much certainty as is humanly possible for us.

    Since as individuals we cannot know everything all by ourselves by our direct experience or interaction with things therefore we also use indirect method of learning as well and that is why we ended up building learning institutions such as schools, colleges and universities etc and developed ways of ensuring how to trust or not to trust others. This is where from come our rules of judgement that we use in the court of law for deciding our disputes or disagreements about things. In these institutions we share our direct experiences or experiments with things with each other to widen our knowledge about things and become wiser with help of one another despite being at odds with each other. This is how with time we are getting better and better at learning and doing things.

    So for I have fully established the fact that the only way for us to learn things is trial and error method. This is how we learned to use our senses for recognising things with help of our memories. Once we saw a thing the very first time and we remembered it in our heads then if we saw it again, we recognised it. Likewise if we heard a sound and heard it again, we recognised it and so on and so forth.

    Likewise when we tried to learn reading or writing, we tried things again and again till we got them right enough to serve our purposes just like learning how to drive a car for example. It was the way we learned how to sit or stand or walk or talk etc etc. It is a time tested method that never failed us and will not fail us so long as we keep using this method rather than accepting things on face value or taking them for granted. Likewise we have been learning from each other always and benefitted from that so much. This is why there should not be any questions against our learning methods or rules of judgement in anyone's mind.

    The other thing that need clarification is, we hear people say, follow the evidence and go where it leads. Is this statement true? No, it is not on its own till it is explained a bit and understood properly for what it is really worth. It is because in this case word evidence has two meanings a)an object or thing and b)its explanation. People need to clearly distinguish between these two because each of them plays a very different role.         

    An object is just an object and does not say anything to us about itself. In this sense evidence cannot lead us anywhere because it goes nowhere to take us with it. It 100% depends upon our own minds how we explain it and only and only that explanation can lead us wherever it takes us. This is why we all follow our own explanations about things wherever they lead us. People have very wrong idea that an evidence on its own is a proof of something. It is not. It is the best possible explanation of the evidence that is the proof. This is how we prove any case in a court of law by putting up our best possible explanations about the available evidences and then the one that is better wins the day.

    Let me try and expand this a bit more. Let us say that two people were walking along on a road and they came across a brick wall. One of them says, I see a wall but the other denies it and says, no, there is nothing there. How is the one who says there is a wall going to prove to the other who says there is no wall that there is really a wall in order to convince him? Yes, you are right, he will have to come up with an idea from his head from inside his head to sort out this fellow. This idea is the explanation and it will prove beyond any reasonable doubt that there is actually a brick wall there. So he tells the other fellow bring your head near me and when he gets hold of his head he bangs it into the brick wall. Then he says to him, can you now see there is a really a brick wall there? This is how the evidence and its related proper explanation work together.

    Just the evidence or just the explanation do not prove anything at all or lead anywhere. We need something there to start with. if there is nothing there then we do not need any explanation for it either. Explanation only becomes necessary for us if we have something there which needs a sensible explanation for us to understand it the best we can. No explanation is any good unless it help us solves our facing problem or answers our question as best as it is humanly possible. Not only that but any method or explanation that leads us nowhere or remains open ended can destroy us in various ways because it can lead us into hopelessness and boredom or depression. Lack of proper explanation destroys us because to live in the dark or confusion throws us in identity crisis. We need real answers not baseless explanations to live by. This is why our human world is full mentally unstable people who are on anti depressants but they cannot help people if they mentally confused about things. Nothing cure this problem otherwise lots people will not be alcoholic or drug addicts.

    It is because we humans have no idea as to how to live in this world properly so we look for happiness in all sorts of wrong ways and in all the wrong places which ruin our lives. Right from the day we are born we need things to keep us amused or entertained. Nothing can entertain us for the whole of our lifetime other than our greed for learning knowledge about the universal realities and revelation of God. We get bored easily. We all need brainwashing or indoctrination or addition otherwise we cannot live our lives. Confusion or mysteries or perplexities or living in the darkness of ignorance kills us. This is why if we will not get addicted or brain washed or indoctrinated the right way then we will become victims of addiction or brainwashing or indoctrination the wrong way. We start programming our minds ourselves and once we become programmed the wrong way then it is very hard to become unwound unless we reach a do or die situations. This is why we need to have a solid foundation to base our learning upon as well as our education system so that we do not end up with nothing at all or nowhere at all.

    The purpose of our education should be to unite us (and not divide us) for sake of peace between us on a basis which helps us progress and prosper as a proper human community in the kingdom of God.   This is why we need to put our coming generations on the right footing that makes sense and ensures our best possible future. Each and every one running around like headless chicken is no way to live our lives. One only has to look at how people are living and what are their lives based upon. We have a huge group of people in the world with religious mindset, attitude and behaviour and we also have an even bigger group of people who have secular mindset, attitude or behaviour. I have already explained this and the effect or end result or outcome or consequence of all this. This means if we have any sense then we must change our ways of life to a best possible way of life, which is deen of islam. I will try and explain this latter when I start discussing the surahs of the quran in detail to help people see what the real message in the quran is. The quran has nothing to do with battles between mullaans and scientists or philosophers. It is because none of them actually knows what the real message in the quran is for humanity. In our world look at how men treat women and vice versa or how parents treat children and vice versa and how we all treat each other in our wider human society or community. While we have these like situations in our human world people are wasting their time on entertainments instead of trying to find way out of this situation. Men are running after women and vice versa most of the time and wasting their time and energy intsead of doing something useful with their God gifted lives. All because people see no point in their life and living it properly.

    Let us now also look at the method called process of elimination. It is used very, very widely eg in all the sciences or fields of knowledge or technology and the reason for that is because it works perfectly for us to help us find out things for ourselves as much as or as far as we possibly can. I used all these methods in my explanations which have been called fallacies. This is why I saw the need for my given explanations to expand them further for better understanding of people as to where I am coming from and why. The reason we need to use this method is because we humans are not omniscient or omnipresent so we cannot know everything there is to know no matter how hard we try. So elimination method helps us overcome our this very limitation to a great extend.

    For example, in my posts I already talked about scriptures people claim they are revealed by God. I said in there, only the quran is possible candidate in that case because all other scriptures in the world themselves contradict their followers who say they are God revealed scripture because names of authors of all those scriptures are known and accepted by people themselves who claim them to be God revealed or God inspired. I talked there in as an example the new testament which contains writings by various people instead of God eg matthew, mark, luke or John etc etc. This saves us ample time in studying and wasting our time on those scriptures for this purpose. For other purposes they are highly useful but we need to be sensible enough to be able to use them properly.

    So let us see what a doctor does in case of a patent. First of all, no one goes to a doctor till one needs attention of a doctor due to being something wrong with the person. When someone comes to a doctor, the doctor uses elimination method by questioning the patient ie about what brings him to the doctor. The doctor does not start with examining the patient all over for every possible thing which could go wrong with a person first to find out what is wrong with him all by himself because it is a waste of time method. Elimination method saves a lot of time and energy which can be used on doing other useful things. This is how some ideas we humans come up become very helpful for us to solve our problems. Here when doctors asks question of a patient as to what is wrong with the patient, he eliminates all other numberless possibilities. Doctor then starts digging deeper and deeper in order to get closer and closer to the actual problem. I mean through trial and error method we have built up a data base of problems by now eg we know thousands of viral diseases already. We know what a normal human body is and what are its parts so if we see anything that is not supposed to be part of the normal human body then we know it is some kind of foreign element in the body. This is why we compare what we find out with our already existing data base and if it does not already exist in our catalogue then we catalogue it for our future reference or use. 

    Now I want people to find any fallacies in my these methods and explanations if they can. When I explain things I look at things in various way in order to help people understand the issue under consideration rather than trying to explain the methods I am using. The reason is I assumed people will know these things already.  Now at least people should know things if they did not know them before.

    Now the issue of God. As explained already, this is how after we are born in this word we witness the universe and things in it and therefore questions rise in our minds where has all this come from and for what purpose and how does it fulfil that purpose etc etc. So we come across the creation as the evidence and the revelation as its explanation allegedly both from God. This is why we must examined them both properly and sincerely to see if that is really true. Here we must apply elimination method because we have no capability of searching out God all by ourselves. Moreover even if there is such a God who has not given us any message to explain things for us then there is no point in searching for such a God who has nothing to do with his creation and creatures. This is why concept of God without concept of revelation is no use for us because it does not solve our problem which is, what is purpose of God for creating us and what we need to do to fulfil that purpose or what is our part in this grand scheme of things as planned by God for us. This is why God concept without revelation of God does not and cannot work. Not only that but any purpose we attribute to God must be in line with our observations of his creation or creatures.

    This is why we must come up with an explanation of things that clearly shows to us that it works ie it explains all we need to know about our existence and purpose. How we can come to know this with reasonable certainty? By using the methods I explained just now ie we must start with trial and error method for trying to understand both the alleged creation of God as well as alleged revelation of God. Scientist and philosophers on their own independent of creation and revelation can never explain realities behind these two things. It is due to trial and error method I talked about God of the gaps. Not the way the scientist talk about God because they are completely ignorant of the message of God. This I will prove when I discuss the quranic surahs.

    Why God of the gaps is right way to go? Because it is wrong and not only wrong but utmost dangerous to go by first assuming there is no God and then looking for evidences to disprove existence of God. This is going to take humanity forever and meanwhile whatever is happening in the human world is not acceptable ie look at how mankind are putting each other through hell by living senseless and immoral lives. The same problem I have with people who think this world is not real. Such argument are utterly none because what matters for us is, our painful suffering by hands of each other which is absolutely real for us and that is what really matters. We cannot know actual realities of things all by ourselves but by using whatever is in our world and what it does and how it does it we can come up with good enough explanation of things which can make our lives as if we are in paradise in this world with help and full support of each other rather than fighting against each other for our petty personal gains at each other's expense.

    How many people in the world are happy with their lives? None. We each have something to bother us. This is why we all need to put aside all scriptures that do not say they are from God and stick to the quran and do our best to decode it for ourselves and our future generations. This is a task no one has touched yet to the degree it needs to be touched.

    Here is a question for each and every person on this forum be one muslim or nonmuslim. Please explains why in the quran God advises people to read taooz before starting their reading of the quran? The answer to this question will decide how many and much people really know about the quran. This is particularly for those who say they have read the quran and there is nothing sensible in it.
    Regards and all the best.

     Cheesy my goodness gracious ., you are such a text writer., I often wonder whether you could be more crisp and bit more logical ., any ways I like that word of your post "fallacy" .. so I will respond all that wall of text but for  now let me read these links

    Quote
    https://www.dawn.com/news/1610235/blasphemy-suspect-gets-bail-over-four-years-after-arrest
    LAHORE: The Lahore High Court on Monday granted post-arrest bail to a man facing trial on blasphemy charge for over four years.

    The suspect was a juvenile when Phoolnagar Saddar police, Kasur district, arrested him in 2016 following an FIR registered under sections 295 and 295-A of Pakistan Penal Code against him on the complaint of one Akhtar Ali.

    The PPC sections in the FIR deal with the offences of injuring or defiling a place of worship, with intent to insult the religion of any class and deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings of any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs....


    Quote
    https://www.dawn.com/news/1610468/thousands-demand-indias-chief-justice-quit-for-suggesting-accused-rapist-marry-schoolgirl-victim

    India's top judge was facing calls to resign on Wednesday after telling an accused rapist to marry his schoolgirl victim to avoid jail.

    More than 5,000 people have signed a petition demanding Chief Justice Sharad Arvind Bobde quit after he told the government technician at a hearing: “If you want to marry (her) we can help you. If not, you lose your job and go to jail.”

    Bobde's comments sparked a furore and prompted women's rights activists to circulate an open letter calling for his resignation that has secured more than 5,200 signatures, campaigner Vani Subramanian said.

    According to the letter, the man is accused of stalking, tying up, gagging and repeatedly raping the girl before threatening to douse her in petrol, set her alight and have her brother killed.

    “By suggesting that this rapist marry the victim-survivor, you, the Chief Justice of India, sought to condemn the victim-survivor to a lifetime of rape at the hands of the tormentor who drove her to attempt suicide,” the letter said.......

      Damn Idiots in high power positions these baboons  are everywhere in every faith in every color...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojpGBz9OxPM


    and hear this  interesting and important Origins podcast ..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeDyJMhrO-A

    https://www.goldsmithssu.org/organisation/islamicsociety/
    Quote
    Lawrence joins human rights activist Maryam Namazie at her office in London to discuss her work with The Council of Ex-Muslims, the rise of fascism in the west, blasphemy, “safe spaces”, and much more.

    Consider supporting the podcast and the Origins Project Foundation at www.originsprojectfoundation.org

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXLv1PHLilU&list=PL5R87nA_A7ijBql86ZL1_PAM8GDM1M_VC




    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #37 - March 18, 2021, 02:29 PM

    To the mod of this forum, please replace the following para in my above post 34 and delete this post, thanks.

    In my view God does exist and there is a way to find this out to a reasonable degree of certainty. We humans are born scientists because we learn things by way of trial and error or we use trial and error method for our learning because that is the way God has created us. If God has created us this way then why will he give us a book that is irrational? This is why we need to do the very same with alleged God sent book as we do with the universe and things in it ie we must try or use trial and error method for its proper understanding otherwise we are not doing justice to God, his revelation and ourselves. It is this against what God warns us in the quran that if we will ignore his advised way of life then we will have no life because in that case for sure we will end up making lives of one another a living hell and that is what is right in front of our own very eyes ie we have turned our lives into a living hell by our battles against each other at a worldwide scale.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #38 - March 18, 2021, 03:32 PM

    Mughal is back.... glad to see that he is trying to change his own views.. his own past and his own posts  well let me read that ..
    Thank you dear yeezevee for your interesting reply. The reason I raised the question that I have is, because we need to sort out the fallacy question.

    I have explained things on basis of process of elimination which we humans use almost anywhere and everywhere when things are beyond our capability to know something about something with 100% certainty. It saves us time and energy and also brings things within our grasp which are otherwise beyond capability of us human beings.

    In my view God does exist and there is a way to find this out to a reasonable degree of certainty. We humans are born scientists because we learn things by way of trial and error or we use trial and error method for our learning because that is the way God has created us. If God has created us this way then why will he give us a book that is irrational? This is why we need to do the very same with alleged God sent book as we do with the universe and things in it ie we must try or use trial and error method for its proper understanding otherwise we are not doing justice to God, his revelation and ourselves. It is this against what God warns us in the quran. That if we will ignore his advised way of life then we will have no life because in that case we will make certainly end up making lives of one another a living end which is right in front of our own very eyes.   

    Trial and error method kicks in as soon as we open our eyes in this world. We have no idea what is what. Not only about other things but even about our own very selves. We do not know anything about our own bodies or body parts and what they are or what they are for or what they are supposed to do. Gradually we start using our senses eg eyes, ears, noses or tongues or sense of touch or feeling. This is why the saying, practice makes us human beings perfect.

    With our senses and rest of our body parts and God given things we start interacting with things or experimenting with things on basis of trial and error method. This is how we gradually learn to figure out things for ourselves about ourselves as well as other things. In order to do that we make countless mistakes along the way till we get hang of things to some degree. In a way the world and things in it acts as our toys for us to play with and learn or find out things. We remain kids always in this world of ours. This is our direct method of learning and we call it our life experience which proves the point that we humans are created as scientists by God for finding out things for ourselves with as much certainty as is humanly possible for us.

    Since as individuals we cannot know everything all by ourselves by our direct experience or interaction with things therefore we also use indirect method of learning as well and that is why we ended up building learning institutions such as schools, colleges and universities etc and developed ways of ensuring how to trust or not to trust others. This is where from come our rules of judgement that we use in the court of law for deciding our disputes or disagreements about things. In these institutions we share our direct experiences or experiments with things with each other to widen our knowledge about things and become wiser with help of one another despite being at odds with each other. This is how with time we are getting better and better at learning and doing things.

    So for I have fully established the fact that the only way for us to learn things is trial and error method. This is how we learned to use our senses for recognising things with help of our memories. Once we saw a thing the very first time and we remembered it in our heads then if we saw it again, we recognised it. Likewise if we heard a sound and heard it again, we recognised it and so on and so forth.

    Likewise when we tried to learn reading or writing, we tried things again and again till we got them right enough to serve our purposes just like learning how to drive a car for example. It was the way we learned how to sit or stand or walk or talk etc etc. It is a time tested method that never failed us and will not fail us so long as we keep using this method rather than accepting things on face value or taking them for granted. Likewise we have been learning from each other always and benefitted from that so much. This is why there should not be any questions against our learning methods or rules of judgement in anyone's mind.

    The other thing that need clarification is, we hear people say, follow the evidence and go where it leads. Is this statement true? No, it is not on its own till it is explained a bit and understood properly for what it is really worth. It is because in this case word evidence has two meanings a)an object or thing and b)its explanation. People need to clearly distinguish between these two because each of them plays a very different role.         

    An object is just an object and does not say anything to us about itself. In this sense evidence cannot lead us anywhere because it goes nowhere to take us with it. It 100% depends upon our own minds how we explain it and only and only that explanation can lead us wherever it takes us. This is why we all follow our own explanations about things wherever they lead us. People have very wrong idea that an evidence on its own is a proof of something. It is not. It is the best possible explanation of the evidence that is the proof. This is how we prove any case in a court of law by putting up our best possible explanations about the available evidences and then the one that is better wins the day.

    Let me try and expand this a bit more. Let us say that two people were walking along on a road and they came across a brick wall. One of them says, I see a wall but the other denies it and says, no, there is nothing there. How is the one who says there is a wall going to prove to the other who says there is no wall that there is really a wall in order to convince him? Yes, you are right, he will have to come up with an idea from his head from inside his head to sort out this fellow. This idea is the explanation and it will prove beyond any reasonable doubt that there is actually a brick wall there. So he tells the other fellow bring your head near me and when he gets hold of his head he bangs it into the brick wall. Then he says to him, can you now see there is a really a brick wall there? This is how the evidence and its related proper explanation work together.

    Just the evidence or just the explanation do not prove anything at all or lead anywhere. We need something there to start with. if there is nothing there then we do not need any explanation for it either. Explanation only becomes necessary for us if we have something there which needs a sensible explanation for us to understand it the best we can. No explanation is any good unless it help us solves our facing problem or answers our question as best as it is humanly possible. Not only that but any method or explanation that leads us nowhere or remains open ended can destroy us in various ways because it can lead us into hopelessness and boredom or depression. Lack of proper explanation destroys us because to live in the dark or confusion throws us in identity crisis. We need real answers not baseless explanations to live by. This is why our human world is full mentally unstable people who are on anti depressants but they cannot help people if they mentally confused about things. Nothing cure this problem otherwise lots people will not be alcoholic or drug addicts.

    It is because we humans have no idea as to how to live in this world properly so we look for happiness in all sorts of wrong ways and in all the wrong places which ruin our lives. Right from the day we are born we need things to keep us amused or entertained. Nothing can entertain us for the whole of our lifetime other than our greed for learning knowledge about the universal realities and revelation of God. We get bored easily. We all need brainwashing or indoctrination or addition otherwise we cannot live our lives. Confusion or mysteries or perplexities or living in the darkness of ignorance kills us. This is why if we will not get addicted or brain washed or indoctrinated the right way then we will become victims of addiction or brainwashing or indoctrination the wrong way. We start programming our minds ourselves and once we become programmed the wrong way then it is very hard to become unwound unless we reach a do or die situations. This is why we need to have a solid foundation to base our learning upon as well as our education system so that we do not end up with nothing at all or nowhere at all.

    The purpose of our education should be to unite us (and not divide us) for sake of peace between us on a basis which helps us progress and prosper as a proper human community in the kingdom of God.   This is why we need to put our coming generations on the right footing that makes sense and ensures our best possible future. Each and every one running around like headless chicken is no way to live our lives. One only has to look at how people are living and what are their lives based upon. We have a huge group of people in the world with religious mindset, attitude and behaviour and we also have an even bigger group of people who have secular mindset, attitude or behaviour. I have already explained this and the effect or end result or outcome or consequence of all this. This means if we have any sense then we must change our ways of life to a best possible way of life, which is deen of islam. I will try and explain this latter when I start discussing the surahs of the quran in detail to help people see what the real message in the quran is. The quran has nothing to do with battles between mullaans and scientists or philosophers. It is because none of them actually knows what the real message in the quran is for humanity. In our world look at how men treat women and vice versa or how parents treat children and vice versa and how we all treat each other in our wider human society or community. While we have these like situations in our human world people are wasting their time on entertainments instead of trying to find way out of this situation. Men are running after women and vice versa most of the time and wasting their time and energy intsead of doing something useful with their God gifted lives. All because people see no point in their life and living it properly.

    Let us now also look at the method called process of elimination. It is used very, very widely eg in all the sciences or fields of knowledge or technology and the reason for that is because it works perfectly for us to help us find out things for ourselves as much as or as far as we possibly can. I used all these methods in my explanations which have been called fallacies. This is why I saw the need for my given explanations to expand them further for better understanding of people as to where I am coming from and why. The reason we need to use this method is because we humans are not omniscient or omnipresent so we cannot know everything there is to know no matter how hard we try. So elimination method helps us overcome our this very limitation to a great extend.

    For example, in my posts I already talked about scriptures people claim they are revealed by God. I said in there, only the quran is possible candidate in that case because all other scriptures in the world themselves contradict their followers who say they are God revealed scripture because names of authors of all those scriptures are known and accepted by people themselves who claim them to be God revealed or God inspired. I talked there in as an example the new testament which contains writings by various people instead of God eg matthew, mark, luke or John etc etc. This saves us ample time in studying and wasting our time on those scriptures for this purpose. For other purposes they are highly useful but we need to be sensible enough to be able to use them properly.

    So let us see what a doctor does in case of a patent. First of all, no one goes to a doctor till one needs attention of a doctor due to being something wrong with the person. When someone comes to a doctor, the doctor uses elimination method by questioning the patient ie about what brings him to the doctor. The doctor does not start with examining the patient all over for every possible thing which could go wrong with a person first to find out what is wrong with him all by himself because it is a waste of time method. Elimination method saves a lot of time and energy which can be used on doing other useful things. This is how some ideas we humans come up become very helpful for us to solve our problems. Here when doctors asks question of a patient as to what is wrong with the patient, he eliminates all other numberless possibilities. Doctor then starts digging deeper and deeper in order to get closer and closer to the actual problem. I mean through trial and error method we have built up a data base of problems by now eg we know thousands of viral diseases already. We know what a normal human body is and what are its parts so if we see anything that is not supposed to be part of the normal human body then we know it is some kind of foreign element in the body. This is why we compare what we find out with our already existing data base and if it does not already exist in our catalogue then we catalogue it for our future reference or use. 

    Now I want people to find any fallacies in my these methods and explanations if they can. When I explain things I look at things in various way in order to help people understand the issue under consideration rather than trying to explain the methods I am using. The reason is I assumed people will know these things already.  Now at least people should know things if they did not know them before.

    Now the issue of God. As explained already, this is how after we are born in this word we witness the universe and things in it and therefore questions rise in our minds where has all this come from and for what purpose and how does it fulfil that purpose etc etc. So we come across the creation as the evidence and the revelation as its explanation allegedly both from God. This is why we must examined them both properly and sincerely to see if that is really true. Here we must apply elimination method because we have no capability of searching out God all by ourselves. Moreover even if there is such a God who has not given us any message to explain things for us then there is no point in searching for such a God who has nothing to do with his creation and creatures. This is why concept of God without concept of revelation is no use for us because it does not solve our problem which is, what is purpose of God for creating us and what we need to do to fulfil that purpose or what is our part in this grand scheme of things as planned by God for us. This is why God concept without revelation of God does not and cannot work. Not only that but any purpose we attribute to God must be in line with our observations of his creation or creatures.

    This is why we must come up with an explanation of things that clearly shows to us that it works ie it explains all we need to know about our existence and purpose. How we can come to know this with reasonable certainty? By using the methods I explained just now ie we must start with trial and error method for trying to understand both the alleged creation of God as well as alleged revelation of God. Scientist and philosophers on their own independent of creation and revelation can never explain realities behind these two things. It is due to trial and error method I talked about God of the gaps. Not the way the scientist talk about God because they are completely ignorant of the message of God. This I will prove when I discuss the quranic surahs.

    Why God of the gaps is right way to go? Because it is wrong and not only wrong but utmost dangerous to go by first assuming there is no God and then looking for evidences to disprove existence of God. This is going to take humanity forever and meanwhile whatever is happening in the human world is not acceptable ie look at how mankind are putting each other through hell by living senseless and immoral lives. The same problem I have with people who think this world is not real. Such argument are utterly none because what matters for us is, our painful suffering by hands of each other which is absolutely real for us and that is what really matters. We cannot know actual realities of things all by ourselves but by using whatever is in our world and what it does and how it does it we can come up with good enough explanation of things which can make our lives as if we are in paradise in this world with help and full support of each other rather than fighting against each other for our petty personal gains at each other's expense.

    How many people in the world are happy with their lives? None. We each have something to bother us. This is why we all need to put aside all scriptures that do not say they are from God and stick to the quran and do our best to decode it for ourselves and our future generations. This is a task no one has touched yet to the degree it needs to be touched.

    Here is a question for each and every person on this forum be one muslim or nonmuslim. Please explains why in the quran God advises people to read taooz before starting their reading of the quran? The answer to this question will decide how many and much people really know about the quran. This is particularly for those who say they have read the quran and there is nothing sensible in it.

    Regards and all the best.

     So Mughal replace that paragraph of his post with this
    To the mod of this forum, please replace the following para in my above post 34 and delete this post, thanks.
    ....In my view God does exist and there is a way to find this out to a reasonable degree of certainty. We humans are born scientists because we learn things by way of trial and error or we use trial and error method for our learning because that is the way God has created us. If God has created us this way then why will he give us a book that is irrational? This is why we need to do the very same with alleged God sent book as we do with the universe and things in it ie we must try or use trial and error method for its proper understanding otherwise we are not doing justice to God, his revelation and ourselves. It is this against what God warns us in the quran that if we will ignore his advised way of life then we will have no life because in that case for sure we will end up making lives of one another a living hell and that is what is right in front of our own very eyes ie we have turned our lives into a living hell by our battles against each other at a worldwide scale. .....

    so what is new in that paragraph??    well I am getting Ooold  I am reading Mughal FOR THE PAST 20 YEARS .,  but nothing seems to be  new ... anyways let me go point by points ..  So Italics is new one  new text
    Quote
    1). In my view God does exist and there is a way to find this out to a reasonable degree of certainty.
    In my view God does exist and there is a way to find this out to a reasonable degree of certainty

    2). We humans are born scientists because we learn things by way of trial and error or we use trial and error method for our learning because that is the way God has created us.
      We humans are born scientists because we learn things by way of trial and error or we use trial and error method for our learning because that is the way God has created us.

    3).  If God has created us this way then why will he give us a book that is irrational? This is why we need to do the very same with alleged God sent book as we do with the universe and things in it ie we must try or use trial and error method for its proper understanding otherwise we are not doing justice to God, his revelation and ourselves.
    If God has created us this way then why will he give us a book that is irrational? This is why we need to do the very same with alleged God sent book as we do with the universe and things in it ie we must try or use trial and error method for its proper understanding otherwise we are not doing justice to God, his revelation and ourselves.

    4). It is this against what God warns us in the quran. That if we will ignore his advised way of life then we will have no life because in that case we will make certainly end up making lives of one another a living end which is right in front of our own very eyes. 
    It is this against what God warns us in the quran that if we will ignore his advised way of life then we will have no life because in that case for sure we will end up making lives of one another a living hell and that is what is right in front of our own very eyes ie we have turned our lives into a living hell by our battles against each other at a worldwide scale.

    Hmm.. so again what is the difference ?   

    Point 1 is  same............
    point 2 is  same..........
    point 3 is  same.......... GOD IS STILL HE...with a male sex organ in HEEEE HEAD... 
    point 4 ...... well not much difference  GOD IS STILL HE.... HIS.......HIM..... that dicky.....The male .,   It is all one male reveling some stuff to other male ., 
    Hmmm...so here is bit difference in point 4..

     
    It is this against what God warns us in the quran. That if we will ignore [size=12pt]his[/size] advised way of life then we will have no life because in that case
    we will make certainly end up making lives of one another a living end which is right in front of our own very eyes. 

    that gets replaced with this

    It is this against what God warns us in the quran that if we will ignore [size=12pt]his[/size] advised way of life then we will have no life because in that case
    for sure we will end up making lives of one another a living hell and that is what is right in front of our own very eyes ie we have turned our lives into a living hell by our battles against each other at a worldwide scale.

    ah Ha!  eureka  .... eureka  .... .... I am so happy i figured  that  out., 

    but ,,, but  Oh well not much difference ,,   it is just this word changed to that word...   but all is  down the hill and  it  all ends up in hell...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #39 - March 18, 2021, 11:09 PM

    To the mod of this forum, please replace the following para in my above post 34 and delete this post, thanks.


    the mod either doesn't exist or heeds you not.

    In my view God does exist and there is a way to find this out to a reasonable degree of certainty.


    likewise.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #40 - March 20, 2021, 08:07 AM

    In my view God does exist and there is a way to find this out to a reasonable degree of certainty. ...........

        
    likewise.

    Huh!.......WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN DEAR CRUMBLE??   your word is really ringing in my brain ..

    likewise.  ....likewise.  ....likewise...... likewise......

     I know Mughal's god...  I know Mughal's Allah  .,  I am reading and  i am interacting with him for the past 20 years or more  .,

    HIS GOD IS "HE".. HIS ALLAH IS "HE".....  It is HE in his brain that is bothering Mughal

    The  attributes and characteristics of his   GOD......god ....Allah..... allah.... whatever...   is  HE  ...... heeeeeeeeee... The Male god.. ,

    That is fine..... That is OK i can deal with that  Mughal's god  ..Mughal  like believers

    but  what is  "like wise god"?? and what is  god in your neck of the world  dear crumble??

    and let me throw some old links here

    GOD/S and Goddesses Across The World From Ancient Times

    Hundreds of Proofs of God's Existence!

    What is an Agnostic Muslim?

    Hindu Gods

    The changing face of God

    Top 10 Logical Fallacies Used By Religion

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #41 - March 20, 2021, 09:37 AM

        Huh!.......WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN DEAR CRUMBLE??   your word is really ringing in my brain ..


    the god either doesn't exist or heeds you not.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #42 - March 21, 2021, 05:57 AM

    the god either doesn't exist or heeds you not.


    Dear crumble, God is not supposed to heed us human beings rather we human beings are supposed to heed God. Why? Because it is God who has created us for his own purposes and not that we do our own things as we please by ignoring God. This is why God has set up universal systems, structures, procedures and practices about which he has told mankind. So the universe is programmed to responds to what people and things think and do as I have explained already in my posts if you have taken the trouble to read them.

    God has created people scientists ie they are capable of learning things by using direct and indirect learning methods as I have explained them in a bit of detail. Method one is trial,and error method, which is direct learning method.

    Method two is indirect learning method whereby we learn from each other as well as rest of the things and finally we have process of elimination method.

    These are the only methods of learning available to us. The only other method is revelations from God. Which in our time is only and only the quran as already explained in detail.

    However, I have yet to explain in detail things about human language before I start explaining the text of the quran in its proper context. Till then things are not going to be clear for people to understand the quran properly. This is why I had to explain things before going onto to the quran. It is because unless we have the common ground which none can dispute, we can carry on arguing with each other at random till the cows come home.

    So everyone has to wait till next interesting bit ie my explanation of things about human language. Had people been thinking the way I do, things could not be this bad as we see them all around us no matter what. However we human beings can still put them right if we get some proper education about things.

    regards and all the  best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #43 - March 21, 2021, 09:43 AM

    .
    However, I have yet to explain in detail things about human language before I start explaining the text of the quran in its proper context. Till then things are not going to be clear for people to understand the quran properly. This is why I had to explain things before going onto to the quran. It is because unless we have the common ground which none can dispute, we can carry on arguing with each other at random till the cows come home.


    explain things? you mean the interminable waffle that relies on circular logic? no common ground will be established that way.

    why not just say something succinct? like you're a quranist who tries to make his distasteful religion palatable for the modern day?
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #44 - March 21, 2021, 08:20 PM

    explain things? you mean the interminable waffle that relies on circular logic? no common ground will be established that way.

    why not just say something succinct? like you're a quranist who tries to make his distasteful religion palatable for the modern day?


    Dear crumble, what is your take on origin and development or words and meaning and the mechanism involved in there in human language before I start explaining my version?

    regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #45 - March 22, 2021, 09:16 AM

    you're going to ramble about arabic? you don't need to be a linguist to know it's another smokescreen.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_homeland
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #46 - March 22, 2021, 01:16 PM

    Quote
    Dear crumble, what is your take on origin and development or words and meaning and the mechanism involved in there in human language before I start explaining my version?

    regards and all the best.

    you're going to ramble about arabic? you don't need to be a linguist to know it's another smokescreen.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_homeland


    well Mughal talks about Human language and crumble talks about Arabic language....

    I ask you why dear crumble??    Mughal is way beyond all   these languages that are developed by different folks at different times by different cultures  .. Mughal is NOT talking about Arabic language which is just an another one of the 1000s of languages that are out there dear crumble..

    Mughal IS TALKING ABOUT HUMAN LANGUAGE .. not languages developed by human beings ..  Question is,  what is human language??  , Clearly one has to be human being or close to humanist to speak and understand that human language., 

    dear Mughal correct me if am wrong saying that...  and  explain naïve folks like crumble ( NOT ME I AM NOT NAVIE)  about human language ..... 

     hmmmm   let me watch this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pieJ-GSdyx8

    there appears to be some human language .. without speaking a single word of any human language   

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #47 - March 22, 2021, 01:57 PM

    how about telling us what you believe instead of the convoluted reasons why? not very interested in a language lecture whether it's from humans or aliens.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #48 - March 23, 2021, 12:09 PM

    is this for me of to Mughal  dear crumble? if it is for me..
    how about telling us what you believe instead of the convoluted reasons why?

    I DID ANSWER THAT SAME/SMILAR QUESTION TO YOU dear crumble ... part of the answer to It is  floating under each and every post of mine .. and you can add to that few more words... such as freedom of expression and golden rule ....
    Quote
    not very interested in a language lecture whether it's from humans or aliens.

    No...Noooo.,  crumble you have to be interested., you must be interested and I say you must explore origins of languages.. and their scripts if you are trying to explore faiths and faith books.,

    Imagine human life without languages and without scripts .,  Imagine human life some 10000 years ago.. which is a very very short time w.r.t biological evolution or even human evolution.,  so please do not neglect such an important  part of human evolution..  language development is very very closely related to every development of human life ..including faiths and their respective books

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #49 - March 24, 2021, 12:34 AM

    the question was actually to mughal but not expecting a non-circuitous answer.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #50 - March 24, 2021, 11:41 AM

    the question was actually to mughal but not expecting a non-circuitous answer.

    Oh!.. Ooops .  putting foot in mud is not new to me.,   but  Mughal is a very smart guy he knows how to answer a question with a question...  So  Mughal's  questions in this folder of GOD... REVELATION/S......CREATION/S   are

    1). Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?

    2). what is your take on origin and development or words and meaning and the mechanism involved in there in human language before I start explaining my version?

    3). If God has created us this way then why will he give us a book that is irrational?

    4). The other thing that need clarification is, we hear people say, follow the evidence and go where it leads. Is this statement true?


    well those are the four questions we have from Mughal ,, and then we have loooong winding wall of text about HIS GOD... AND HIS QURAN., 
    Quote
    Now the issue of God. As explained already, this is how after we are born in this word we witness the universe and things in it and therefore questions rise in our minds where has all this come from and for what purpose and how does it fulfil that purpose etc etc. So we come across the creation as the evidence and the revelation as its explanation allegedly both from God. This is why we must examined them both properly and sincerely to see if that is really true. Here we must apply elimination method because we have no capability of searching out God all by ourselves. Moreover even if there is such a God who has not given us any message to explain things for us then there is no point in searching for such a God who has nothing to do with his creation and creatures. This is why concept of God without concept of revelation is no use for us because it does not solve our problem which is, what is purpose of God for creating us and what we need to do to fulfil that purpose or what is our part in this grand scheme of things as planned by God for us. This is why God concept without revelation of God does not and cannot work. Not only that but any purpose we attribute to God must be in line with our observations of his creation or creatures.

    This is why we must come up with an explanation of things that clearly shows to us that it works ie it explains all we need to know about our existence and purpose. How we can come to know this with reasonable certainty? By using the methods I explained just now ie we must start with trial and error method for trying to understand both the alleged creation of God as well as alleged revelation of God. Scientist and philosophers on their own independent of creation and revelation can never explain realities behind these two things. It is due to trial and error method I talked about God of the gaps. Not the way the scientist talk about God because they are completely ignorant of the message of God. This I will prove when I discuss the quranic surahs.

    Why God of the gaps is right way to go? Because it is wrong and not only wrong but utmost dangerous to go by first assuming there is no God and then looking for evidences to disprove existence of God. This is going to take humanity forever and meanwhile whatever is happening in the human world is not acceptable ie look at how mankind are putting each other through hell by living senseless and immoral lives. The same problem I have with people who think this world is not real. Such argument are utterly none because what matters for us is, our painful suffering by hands of each other which is absolutely real for us and that is what really matters. We cannot know actual realities of things all by ourselves but by using whatever is in our world and what it does and how it does it we can come up with good enough explanation of things which can make our lives as if we are in paradise in this world with help and full support of each other rather than fighting against each other for our petty personal gains at each other's expense.

    How many people in the world are happy with their lives? None. We each have something to bother us. This is why we all need to put aside all scriptures that do not say they are from God and stick to the quran and do our best to decode it for ourselves and our future generations. This is a task no one has touched yet to the degree it needs to be touched.

    and then he has  another question about Quran...

    Quote
    Here is a question for each and every person on this forum be one muslim or nonmuslim. Please explains why in the quran God advises people to read taooz before starting their reading of the quran? The answer to this question will decide how many and much people really know about the quran. This is particularly for those who say they have read the quran and there is nothing sensible in it.


    so those are the questions that are bothering Mughal dear crumble.. and and you or some one answer them .. he will come up with same question in new form .. SO YOU RUN IN CIRCLES and read his long winding texts that takes you nowhere ..

     Crumble I too need answer on that taooz .... and why in the quran,, WHERE IS THE QURAN... God advises people to read taooz before starting their reading of the quran?


    well let me watch the kid.. LESSON 4 "TAOOZ AND TASMIA"   who seem to  understands Quran better than Mughal.....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sFBR3GAPQY


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #51 - March 24, 2021, 10:55 PM

    explain things? you mean the interminable waffle that relies on circular logic? no common ground will be established that way.


    Dear crumble, please explain in detail what do you mean by term circular reasoning? In my view such terms are used wrongly or for wrong purposes. They are used for avoiding acceptance of proper way of thinking for humanity as i have explained in detail already. Why? It is because reasoning requires a starting point and that starting point needs to be triggered by something, be it an idea or object. So that which triggers reasoning we cannot say it is nothing at all or is not important particularly if humanity depends upon it for one reason or another even if it is on basis of necessity. For example, idea of God comes to our minds after seeing his alleged creation and his alleged revelation. I have already explained this very clearly. This is why such an idea cannot be dismissed by saying it is a circular reasoning. It is not a simple case of the quran says there is a God so there is a God. The quran points out evidences as well as explains them. The question is whether the pointed out evidences and provided explanations are up to scratch or not. This we cannot decide till we study what exists out there and its given explanation properly.

    We are foretold that if we will dismiss what exists and its given explanation without giving it the due attention then consequences for doing so could be unbearable for humanity. Almost all of us have done that and the consequences for that are right before our very eyes even today. This is why we are arguing with each other and not just arguing but fighting with each other all the time anywhere and everywhere throughout the world. This is nothing new rather it has been the case ever since we came into existence and started to go our ways.     

    As I have explained already we humans are not Gods or as capable as God, so we are forced by reason to use the methods I have explained already for learning. We cannot and we should not waste our lives on basis of reaching the ultimate truth all by ourselves one day. If we want to decide issue of God once and for all then we must get into nitty griity of the creation and the explanation as we have it allegedly according to God. It is nothing less than madness to try to solve this issue by going about it independent of God's alleged creation and revelation. This is why I call this way of looking at things God of the gaps. It is because we need a proper moral standard to live by or we are doomed forever. It is because we humans are not capable of creating an absolute moral standard all by ourselves to live by no matter what. It is hard enough for us to try to figure out the absolute moral standard provided to us by God because he created us without knowing a thing. It is because we need to find out things by ourselves to a degree that is why from our point of view moral standards is relative till we get the hang of the absolute moral standard. The while we are trying to figure out things we still need to have some kind of reasonable way of life to start from and then we can gradually move towards the way of life given to us by God as we understand it better and better.

    The idea that this world is not real is nonsense. It is because what matters is our own experiences in this world. We in this world whatever it is experience pleasures as well as pains and they are real for us. This is why we should adopt any way of life that gives us a great life in this world by way of eliminating our painful suffering by hands of each other. A way of life offered by the quran is the only best possible way of life for humanity in this world. That is what the quranic challenge is about ie we cannot bring about a book that could offer us as good a way of life as the quran suggests for us in this world as well as it explain the purpose for such a life. This is why to dismiss the quran is not that easy as we shall see when I start explaining the actual text of the quran after explaining things about human language. Whatever people have learned so far, they have not yet realised the idea of having a proper dictionary of the human language. Had they realised this and have had written such dictionaries then we could not be as foolish as we are about human language just as we are about methods of learning.

    We have been telling each other we are making each other sensible are giving knowledge to each other. This is false. We have inbuilt potentialities and capabilities or talents or gifts and all we can do is help each other with information we each could bring to the attention of others. This we are not doing properly instead we are busy putting hurdles and barriers in the way of each other whereby we try to put off or stop each other from learning what we ought to learn. We are being unhelpful rather than helpful to each other and this is why the human world is the way it is.

    Please note, I am not stopping anyone from searching for ultimate truth. What I am saying is don't mess up your own and others' humanity in the process rather do what needs to be done for humanity first to put it right and then carry on with whatever you wish to do with your lives.

    regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #52 - March 24, 2021, 11:59 PM

    I have distilled the essence of your argument:

    Dear crumble, please explain in detail what do you mean by term circular reasoning? 

    For example, idea of God comes to our minds after seeing his alleged creation and his alleged revelation.

    It is not a simple case of the quran says there is a God so there is a God.

    If we want to decide issue of God once and for all then we must get into nitty griity of the creation and the explanation as we have it allegedly according to God.

    It is because we humans are not capable of creating an absolute moral standard all by ourselves to live by no matter what.

    A way of life offered by the quran is the only best possible way of life for humanity in this world.


    it would be amusing except religious nutcases use similar nonsensical self-reinforcing arguments to explain why others should be attacked or killed.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #53 - March 26, 2021, 08:10 AM

    Origin and development of human language issue is straightforward one.

    Think about how capable God has created human beings ie he has given us huge potential and ability to learn things and that is why we are very good at figuring out things right from the day we are born. This is why we learn how to use our body parts and bodies. This is why we very soon learn how to see or hear or feel or taste or smell things and what they mean for us. We soon learn how to use our hands and feet etc etc. So our brains are very good at figuring out anything and everything to a degree we need to.

    This being the case to begin with, learning how to communicate with each other through speaking or reading or writing was not such a mystery for us that we could not figure out for ourselves and that is exactly what we did. This is how we ended up coding our gestures and noises for each other and we learned ways of decoding them. This is the process whereby we communicate with each other right from the day we are born. In order to preserve information from generation to generation for our own future and our future generations we invented various methods such as reading and writing methods. Just as the noises we heard or made became meaningful for us so the scratches or marks we made anywhere also became meaningful for us. We tried writing down our information in form of pictures and from pictures we ended up with letters and with letters we ended up writing words etc etc. We have been trying to invent things which could help us preserve records of information and that is how we ended up with computers. However, any time we get stuck for communication the way we do it now, we always go back to our long past and start again. This is why to decode the quranic message we need to do exactly the same. I will explain as we go along the reason why information from God takes us back to basics. One thing we must remember is that we always preserved our mental concepts. For example, if we wanted to express word chair from our minds then we had each and every aspects about chair in our minds and that is why word chair means a lot of different things. Likewise word God also has many meanings in our minds. The reason is naming words contain all the possible descriptions of the things that go with them.       

    So knowing information about origin and development of human language is important in general but in the context of the alleged revelation of God it is particularly of vital importance as it will become clear after my explanation. The question is, why it is of such fundamental importance? It is important because we are not born knowing all there is to know and we need to learn things before we could discuss things whether they are true or false or right or wrong or why or how etc etc. This is why we cannot jump the gun ie we cannot discuss the quran till we come to know things about human language which we must come to know if we wish to understand the quran properly in its proper context. Just as we could not run as soon as we were born rather before doing so we had to learn how to sit up or crawl or stand up or walk etc etc likewise we must start learning things about language right from the start. All this takes time but not much time once someone teaches us things. That cuts down millions of years into a very short period of time as already explain in my explanation of learning methods.

    Knowing things about human language will help us decode language and message of of God just like we decode messages between ourselves and other things on this planet, so it is very important that we try to have some sense about human language as well so that we then could see how the quran uses the language to convey to us its message. If we have no idea why the quran is using the human language the way it is then how can we know what it is trying to tell us or teach us? Just suppose one has phds in all fields of knowledge and one has a newborn baby, can one teach to that newborn baby everything one knows right away? No way, rather one needs to wait and give the baby needed time to grow with time as regard learning and doing things so that the baby is able to catch up with things one wishes to teach the baby gradually. This is why having idea of things we experienced in our lives is not just very important but vitally important. It is of vital importance to look at a baby as to how he learns language and uses it. Just like a baby learns things by direct experience of things as I have explained in detail already so he learns the human language as well. let us think about process of learning of human language between a mother and her baby for example.

    A baby tries to make sense of things the baby senses by sensing and doing things and that is how he learns using his senses or limbs or rest of his body etc. Likewise baby becomes aware or figures it out that when he cries he gets attention of his mother. Mother also learns and interprets language of her baby. Just now they do not use words as we know them rather they simply use noises. Baby uses crying noise for example each time he needs attention of his mother. Mother due to her experience with her baby eventually learns or figures out the signal sent by the baby in form of his crying that he is hungry or needs his nappy changed etc etc as baby cannot tell her about thing in words yet, but the question is, what are words? Just noises like crying or signals. This is the beginning of communication between mother and baby. Gradually as baby grows this language become complex. It is because at the starts baby uses the very same noise or sound for lot of different things. This is the origin of the very same sound or let us say the very same word or gesture meaning very many different things. So people who say this or that word cannot mean this and that and the other prove very wrong right at the very start of this discussion. Even word this mean everything nearby regardless of its any other name and the same is true about word that ie everything away from us that or that thing. This is what we do when we are talking with each other if we do not know each other's language. We may go to a shop and ask the shopkeeper please give us that or that thing if we do not know the name of it.   

    As this baby grows bigger and bigger and he can make more and more sounds and gestures, the language becomes more and more complex. As more and more words and gestures become available to the baby to express himself better and better, the baby language becomes more and more precise but never never fully precise because there are so many things to learn about in life for people that we have no words for or we cannot remember them all in our heads. So from one word for everything the baby now uses more words for more things to talk about them. This is how human language starts from one word or gesture for everything and then a lot of different words and gestures for a lot of different things. This helps human mind grow a lot because as baby learns to figure our new words or noises or gestures so we grown ups try to figure out what baby is saying or doing now and what it means for us and the baby. It is a situation like two people who do not know language of each other how they try to figure each other out. This struggle for learning things helps our brains a lot in growing and becoming cleverer, 

    New learning saves baby from explaining things in detail and helps his mother understand her baby better as time passes but misunderstandings still carry on because humans are still learning things even today and they need each other's explanations to help them understand each other's points better. Interpretation or explanation is all about decoding information for each other's understanding. With time some things become a standard and for the rest we carry on explanations till they become a communication standard. This is why human language is not a simple thing to understand. All those people who talk a lot of nonsense they lack this awareness about how they became possessors of a human language in the first place. Human language is not clear till we clarify it for ourselves for our own uses or purposes for communications between ourselves. This is why we create educational institutions to standardise things between ourselves to help us get through life with help of each other.

    Now if we open up any worthwhile dictionary of any human language then it will clearly tell us various meanings of the very same word, particularly of those words used currently a lot. Not only that, we will also be told the terminology as well ie the way we have defined words for any particular uses. So to think or say the human language is simple or precise is not true rather we try to make it as precise as we can for whatever purpose we choose to use the language for. It is just like mathematical expressions where in we say this number equals this etc. For example, we can write 10=1+9 or 2+8 or 2x5 or 20/2 etc etc. Likewise words have so many meanings and they work the same way.

    Now think about it, this is the situation between human beings who have been living with each other for God knows how long. How about people understanding language of God? Can they? No way. The reason is, God is not our close relative or next door neighbour that we can chat with each other directly each and every day and clarify things for each other. This is why to think if God gave us a book using our human language words then we can have no difficulty in understanding it is not the right way to think. If we have hard time understanding each other then we have even harder time understanding words of God. It is because God is conveying his own thoughts for us by using our own human language which we have not fully grasped yet.

    For example, we go back to being babies any time we get stuck with language problem eg imagine an urdu speaking guy who only knows urdu and nothing else and some how he ends up among a people who only speak english, how are they going to communicate to each other? You guest it. They will go back to gestures and noises and gradually learn to communicate with each other. The very same we need to do with book from God ie we need to become babies to find out what it might be saying to us from the scratch. However our attempts to decode words in the book of God leads us all over the place because we all come from so many different backgrounds and we each have baggage of our own life experiences. So we are mostly forced to look at things the wrong way because we do not have the right way and that is how we end up differing from each other. But if we will understand these problems in our way then we will end up working together on this project for decoding the message of God properly and by fighting each other we will only confuse each other more and more and as a result we will end up causing more and more problems for each other and suffer thereby by hands of each other.

    When it comes to decoding message of God, we are like babies and God is a highly knowledgeable being. We have no way to know what is meant by God when he talks to us. It is because we do not know things about things about which we talk but God fully knows what he is talking about. If God talks about human beings, he knows them inside out but do we? No. We only know what we have been able to find out so far about human beings after so many of our human generations. It is still going to take a lot more time for us to know more about human beings because we have been busy fighting each other for our petty personal gains at each other's expense instead of working as a team to learn what we needed to learn to have a great life in this world by working hard for it. God knows how many more generations will perish due to their deliberately remaining ignorant or due to keeping each other ignorant for purposes of exploitation or abusive use of each other. Yet these like people dare to talk about the quran about which they never bothered to learn much in the first place, be they name sake muslims or nonmuslims.

    This is why if we want the best possible world for ourselves and our future generations then we need to learn the quran properly and to do so we need to discover a method for decoding message of God properly just as we have learned to decode messages of each other. Most human beings are very lazy and very crazy when it comes to learning knowledge which seems of no benefit for people. If they were not then we could not be in the terrible situation that we are in today. Moreover many instead of helping each other are always placing barriers or hurdles in the way of each other in order to trip each other. One can see how we have created the idea of intellectual property copyright etc for example and its affects. We are doing anything and everything to hold each other back from learning proper sense and we are also holding each other down for as long as we can and any how we can yet we talk about human rights and this and that etc etc. The more ignorant and immoral the people are the louder they shout about morality about which they know nothing at all. Wherever we need cooperation or help and full support of each other, we do our best to create hurdles or problems or difficulties or troubles for each other for our petty personal gains at each other's expense.

    This shows our utter lack of morality and concern for humanity. We talk about better world for our future generations but we do everything to ruin their chances to a best possible life in this world. This is why so many of our generations have perished after very long and terribly painful suffering by hands of each other. Why we do almost all that is bad in our lives to each other? Only and only because we are ignorant or foolish or stupid or we are deliberately deceiving each other by our nice talk but harmful and destructive works due to our ignorance about what is true and right or what is false and wrong. We don't miss any chance for ruining each other any way we can to stay on the top of each other. This very clearly shows that we have not based ourselves upon right foundation for living properly in this world and we do not want to learn about what that proper foundation is otherwise how could so many of human generations perish this way over such a long time? We are just trying to fool each other all the time rather than finding out by ourselves or from each other the proper foundation that we should have for our betterment as a human population fully concerned about our true well being.

    Anyway since we need a method to decode message of God therefore we need to become aware of the fact that good dictionaries we already have need to be understood by us because they contain in them words and their meanings as well as why those word have those meanings. This gives us mechanism whereby we can come up with new possible meanings of the very same words that are already part of human language. This is the kind of dictionary humanity needs for decoding communication from God and I am writing such a dictionary already and it is a huge project or undertaking. It is because when I carry out my research of this nature, I end up with up to 30 a4 size pages just for meaning of a particular root. So one can see how many pages I am going to end up with for a whole dictionary based upon words used in the quran for example. It is very time consuming exercise. This is only one thing we need to go through after figuring out the purpose of the text. The other problem is figuring out the meaning of the text in a way that it makes perfect sense to us. No one has done much work on these things yet because human beings have not yet become aware of the vital importance of having such works in order to help us figure out things.

    Another point to take note of is, we assume that we speak different languages but is that really true? If we have the very same ancestors then how could we end up speaking different languages? Does the idea of speaking different languages mean we have come down from different ancestors? If our ancestors are the same then how we ended up speaking so called different languages?

    To be continued.   

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #54 - March 26, 2021, 01:55 PM

    Quote from:
    How about people understanding language of God? Can they? No way. The reason is, God is not our close relative or next door neighbour that we can chat with each other directly each and every day and clarify things for each other. This is why to think if God gave us a book using our human language words then we can have no difficulty in understanding it is not the right way to think. If we have hard time understanding each other then we have even harder time understanding words of God. It is because God is conveying his own thoughts for us by using our own human language which we have not fully grasped yet.


    complete bollocks.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #55 - March 27, 2021, 05:10 AM

    complete bollocks.


    Dear crumble, what is difference between circular reasoning and anecdotal evidence and the direct and indirect methods of learning I explained in detail? Kindly explain this in a bit of detail for me. Are these methods of learning I explained without which we cannot do in conflict with what we call circular reasoning or anecdotal evidence? Please explain.

    Regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #56 - March 27, 2021, 09:07 AM

    complete bollocks.


    translation: you  believe that an omnipotent god is constrained by his own creation, ie it is impossible for him to send a clear message because he is forced to abide by the rules of human language.

    and despite how ridiculous that sounds, you want  everyone to submit to this impotent god and his defective message?

    so yes, complete bollocks.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #57 - March 27, 2021, 09:28 AM

    if you want to be rational then don't start with the conclusion and work backwards to prove it.

    as in the below thread, start with the evidence and then arrive at a conclusion.

    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg890635;topicseen#new
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #58 - March 28, 2021, 01:01 AM

    translation: you  believe that an omnipotent god is constrained by his own creation, ie it is impossible for him to send a clear message because he is forced to abide by the rules of human language.

    and despite how ridiculous that sounds, you want  everyone to submit to this impotent god and his defective message?

    so yes, complete bollocks.


    Dear crumble, it seems to me that you are not looking at things objectively or purposefully. God is God with all his due attributes and qualities. God basically has two kinds of attributes, can you explain which ones, why or how? The quran is said to be word of God but is it creation of God or not? If yes, why? If no, why not? I wanted to leave such things till their time but since you have brought up the issue of God so let us see, what sort of God is in your mind in which you will be able to believe and whose existence you will be able prove  and your way to do so will be interesting to know.

    Regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #59 - March 28, 2021, 01:57 AM

    if you want to be rational then don't start with the conclusion and work backwards to prove it.

    as in the below thread, start with the evidence and then arrive at a conclusion.

    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg890635;topicseen#new


    Dear crumble, I am trying to be rational and that is why I am trying to understand how you look at things and whether your way of looking at things makes any sense at all.

    Before anyone could talk about God, one has to come up with a way whereby one could prove or disprove existence of God. If you have any such way that works, please share. Otherwise as I have explained already there are only three methods for learning knowledge for human beings and anything outside that is not rationality but utter nonsense because human beings cannot rationalise anything that is beyond human capability. That is realm of God ie we cannot approach God but God can approach us. Why should we waste our lives on basis of things which we can never find out all by ourselves? Human beings can never prove or disprove existence of God all by themselves. It is beyond their capability. Only God himself can prove to us his own existence by way he himself chooses and he chose to prove his existence for us by way of his revelation. This is why our only best chance for solving this question is by looking at the quran rationally in light of real world realities as it ought to be looked at, so the real question we should ask ourselves is, have we humans really done that? I do not think so because this very thread proves it. How? Because I do not see any people here with the needed knowledge for looking into the quran properly. All I see here is the very same thing as we have it on youtube etc ie many debates between theists and atheists but nothing about proper understanding of the revelation of God.

    Had anyone bothered to read my posts for understanding things, they will have found that my approach to issue of existence of God is very different from all the rest. I am challenging rules whereby people arrive at their conclusions about God. If their rules are wrong then their conclusion based upon those rules cannot be true or right. For example, I already explained that method of elimination is the best possible method whereby we can approach all issues that are otherwise beyond our capability. By trying to find out whether God exist or not the way we cannot, is irrational in itself. It is like looking for a needle in the haystack. What should we do till we find the needle in the haystack? Keep wasting our lives by thinking and doing things the way they keep ruining us?

    On the other hand let us suppose there is no God, however we assume there is a God and he has send us a book and that book can help us create a great life for ourselves in this world then what do we lose? Absolutely nothing at all but instead we gain a great life in this world. All we need to do is live moral lives based upon that book if it proves to be such a book. I do not see anything wrong with that. I see everything wrong with the idea of no God till we actually find one. I see a better idea whereby we live as if there is truly a God and he has sent us his book to live by which gives us a great life here in this world. This is why we should take the better option than the one which is worse. This is why I explained things about God of the gaps. I am not saying there is no God or there is a God but that we must study things the way they need to be studied or we can forget peace and stability in this world for humanity for which all people say they longing for it . The world in that case belongs to those who can exploit the rest the most. Who can stop such people and why anyone should bother to do that? Why shouldn't one join the party that is strongest and can offer the most to it at the expense of all others? Rules in that case are set by the most powerful people not weak people. In that kind of world we all will try to be more powerful than each other and in that struggle we will be like animals in a jungle not human beings as God intended for us to be.

    The quran instead talks about a complementary human community in the kingdom of God. The quran is also about self organised and self regulated human community. This is why this book is really worth a proper study. I will talk about it when I come to that stage. Just now I am talking about language of God and language of humanity and how they can complement each other.  But as I said these things will become clear when I explain the quranic text.

    regards and all the best.


    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
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