Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
Yesterday at 09:18 PM

Paris murder
Yesterday at 12:15 PM

the lost road
Yesterday at 12:30 AM

Muslim grooming gangs sti...
October 27, 2020, 06:56 PM

8 killed, more than 110 i...
October 27, 2020, 04:21 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
October 27, 2020, 12:32 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
October 27, 2020, 09:44 AM

Donald Trump wants to ban...
October 25, 2020, 11:07 AM

JW Apostasy film on BBC
October 24, 2020, 09:16 PM

مدهش----- لماذا؟؟؟؟
by akay
October 24, 2020, 01:59 PM

Hitchens....Dawkins....Ha...
October 22, 2020, 12:57 PM

The essence of the facts
by akay
October 20, 2020, 04:56 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?

 (Read 1588 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     OP - September 03, 2020, 02:56 PM

    I am of the view that we human beings are still not knowledgeable enough to talk about God, his revelation and creation. I think so because I see people lack knowledge about some very basic things involved in this discussion.

    Can anyone explain how many stages of learning there are for a human being to be able to talk about God related things in a sensible way?

    Regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #1 - September 03, 2020, 07:42 PM

    Mughal is well read.. well equipped.. he write.. writes and writes... and that is wonderful.,  let me phrase Mughal's post as pointer and answer them...
    Quote
    1). I am of the view that we human beings are still not knowledgeable enough to talk about God, his revelation and creation.

    I fully agree with Mughal., Indeed we do not understand anything.. forget god.. we don't even understand grass..... his revelation??  HIS.....HIS...... ?? nah  nah.. no revelations., yes there are zillion things we don't understand how they got created ..... but i can assure you dear Mughal .,  God's revelations are NOT in BOOKS.. NOT IN THE WORDS FROM HUMAN BEING., but may be individual can see those revelations of god once in while in their lives... but you know look for them..
    Quote
    2). I think so because I see people lack knowledge about some very basic things involved in this discussion.

    Oh again I fully agree with you there., but you can teach the reader about those things .. teaching is the key..
    Quote
    3). Can anyone explain how many stages of learning there are for a human being to be able to talk about God related things in a sensible way?

    well there could be infinite stages of learning.,.. it is a quest for human life to figure out those ways., and individual must have freedom to explore those ways. Certainly bookish way is not the way., it could be a way for some people  but that is not for everyone..
     
    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #2 - September 04, 2020, 07:54 PM

    I am of the view that we human beings are still not knowledgeable enough to talk about God, his revelation and creation.


    is it consistent to claim insufficient knowledge of something but still assert some of its attributes? seems the equivalent of being definite about your uncertainty - something doesn't add up.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #3 - September 10, 2020, 12:17 AM

    Mughal is well read.. well equipped.. he write.. writes and writes... and that is wonderful.,  let me phrase Mughal's post as pointer and answer them...I fully agree with Mughal., Indeed we do not understand anything.. forget god.. we don't even understand grass..... his revelation??  HIS.....HIS...... ?? nah  nah.. no revelations., yes there are zillion things we don't understand how they got created ..... but i can assure you dear Mughal .,  God's revelations are NOT in BOOKS.. NOT IN THE WORDS FROM HUMAN BEING., but may be individual can see those revelations of god once in while in their lives... but you know look for them..Oh again I fully agree with you there., but you can teach the reader about those things .. teaching is the key.. well there could be infinite stages of learning.,.. it is a quest for human life to figure out those ways., and individual must have freedom to explore those ways. Certainly bookish way is not the way., it could be a way for some people  but that is not for everyone..
     
    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Greetings dear yeezevee, thank you for your reply and kind remarks.

    I think we humans need to go through three stages of learning before we could talk about God in a sensible way. Our first stage of learning is all about things we can detect directly with our senses after our birth. All we need to do is observe what things are and what they do and how they do what they do or why they do what they do. This is how we start rationalising things or this is how we start developing our logical thinking about things from the most simple to the most complex. If we do not learn things to this stage we cannot move on to the next stage. The better we are at reasoning the better is our understanding or comprehension of things. In the beginning we can only perform most simple tasks but as we get busy with our learning in time we come to the stage whereby we can perform most complex tasks. Compare mechanism involved in a bike to the mechanisms involved in a car or an aeroplane etc. If we do not understand bike mechanism then we surely cannot understand aeroplane mechanisms. Moreover if we do not understand visible mechanism then we cannot understand invisible mechanisms because for that we need to develop higher level of thinking ability.

    Once we have reach first stage of thinking level then comes our second stage of learning which is about things that are not all directly reachable by our senses. Now we try our best to come up with tools or instruments whereby we extend our power of observations or detection. By this stage of knowledge we come to realise the fact that not all that exists is detectable by our senses directly. Here we start calling things visible as well as invisible or detectable as well as undeotectable. In other words we come to know by this stage that some things are accessible by us and others not. Now stage one of our learning comes to our help if had trained ourselves well in logical thinking. In case of first stage if one was using a bike for riding and it broke, it will only need a visible inspection to find fault in it eg if a person was riding a bike and was going along then suddenly the turning of pedals became ineffective then one will try to look at the bike to see what may have gone wrong. As the rider inspects the bike he sees the chain has broken down, one was able to find this fault very easy for two main reasons a)the mechanism was simple and b)the whole mechanism was visible directly. Had it been a tv set which had broken down then the fault finding process will not be that simple. It is because the tv set will have much more complex circuitry and will be involving many more components as well as some totally invisible things as well. So now we will have to be able to reason things out at a much higher level to figure out the fault. We will have to know functions of components and the involved circuitry as to how exactly these components etc make a tv set work the way it works so what could cause the fault that has developed in the tv set. Once we have reached this stage of learning then we need to go to yet higher stage of learning when we have to deal with things that are totally undetectable with our senses or even with any tool or instrument.

    Unless one has reached stage one of thinking level one cannot go to stage two of learning and likewise if one has not mastered stage two of thinking level then one cannot go for stage three of thinking level. Stage one is about directly detectable or sensible things but stage two involves some detectable as well as some undetectable things. Stage three however involves things that are not detectable at all by us directly but there effects or affects are made obvious to us through explanation alone. No explanation is a visible object because it is only and only our mental process. This is why to know whether there is a God or not or that the quran is a book from God or not we need to be able to reason things out at stage three level. Unless one is really good at this one cannot know the truth with needed reasonable certainty.

    Sorry for delay in my response, but due to getting old I am no longer as fit as I used to be. Nice to have a dialogue with you after so long.

    Regards and all the best.     

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #4 - September 10, 2020, 02:11 PM

    my goodness gracious .. I knew it.. what a response from Mughal., it is always educational ., but let me hide unimportant part of his post  under the code and respond to the important points...
    1). Greetings dear yeezevee, thank you for your reply and kind remarks.

    I think we humans need to go through three stages of learning before we could talk about God in a sensible way. Our first stage of learning is all about things we can detect directly with our senses after our birth. All we need to do is observe what things are and what they do and how they do what they do or why they do what they do. This is how we start rationalising things or this is how we start developing our logical thinking about things from the most simple to the most complex. If we do not learn things to this stage we cannot move on to the next stage. The better we are at reasoning the better is our understanding or comprehension of things. In the beginning we can only perform most simple tasks but as we get busy with our learning in time we come to the stage whereby we can perform most complex tasks. Compare mechanism involved in a bike to the mechanisms involved in a car or an aeroplane etc. If we do not understand bike mechanism then we surely cannot understand aeroplane mechanisms. Moreover if we do not understand visible mechanism then we cannot understand invisible mechanisms because for that we need to develop higher level of thinking ability.

    Once we have reach first stage of thinking level then comes our second stage of learning which is about things that are not all directly reachable by our senses. Now we try our best to come up with tools or instruments whereby we extend our power of observations or detection. By this stage of knowledge we come to realise the fact that not all that exists is detectable by our senses directly. Here we start calling things visible as well as invisible or detectable as well as undeotectable. In other words we come to know by this stage that some things are accessible by us and others not. Now stage one of our learning comes to our help if had trained ourselves well in logical thinking. In case of first stage if one was using a bike for riding and it broke, it will only need a visible inspection to find fault in it eg if a person was riding a bike and was going along then suddenly the turning of pedals became ineffective then one will try to look at the bike to see what may have gone wrong. As the rider inspects the bike he sees the chain has broken down, one was able to find this fault very easy for two main reasons a)the mechanism was simple and b)the whole mechanism was visible directly. Had it been a tv set which had broken down then the fault finding process will not be that simple. It is because the tv set will have much more complex circuitry and will be involving many more components as well as some totally invisible things as well. So now we will have to be able to reason things out at a much higher level to figure out the fault. We will have to know functions of components and the involved circuitry as to how exactly these components etc make a tv set work the way it works so what could cause the fault that has developed in the tv set. Once we have reached this stage of learning then we need to go to yet higher stage of learning when we have to deal with things that are totally undetectable with our senses or even with any tool or instrument.

    Unless one has reached stage one of thinking level one cannot go to stage two of learning and likewise if one has not mastered stage two of thinking level then one cannot go for stage three of thinking level. Stage one is about directly detectable or sensible things but stage two involves some detectable as well as some undetectable things. Stage three however involves things that are not detectable at all by us directly but there effects or affects are made obvious to us through explanation alone. No explanation is a visible object because it is only and only our mental process. This is why to know whether there is a God or not or that the quran is a book from God or not we need to be able to reason things out at stage three level. Unless one is really good at this one cannot know the truth with needed reasonable certainty.

    2). Sorry for delay in my response, but due to getting old I am no longer as fit as I used to be. Nice to have a dialogue with you after so long.

    Regards and all the best.     

    please DO NOT SAY SORRY.,   and we are all getting old.. do you remember when I said "Greetings Mughal  for the first time??  THAT WAS 20 years ago in that Faith Freedom International forum.... Cheesy., and I see you are still actively posting there.,   So why are you not posting here??

    And  no one will get younger .. well ...  arrow of time for a given life of any species goes only one direction....  we should not worry about that.. do what we can do with in the time  we live...

    as far as your rest of the post is concerned,,  there is so much on the plate .. I am still eating those first few lines of your unimportant  part of the post
    Quote
    1). I think we humans need to go through three stages of learning before we could talk about God in a sensible way.

    2). Our first stage of learning is all about things we can detect directly with our senses after our birth

    well Not sure about the point one.. Why only three stages?  and I don't think I have crossed the first stage ....  any ways., rest I will read through critically and respond to your post..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #5 - September 11, 2020, 08:24 AM

    So back to Mughal's post... my goodness .. I was causally checking web   and I get "Mughal and yeezevee"   all over..
    Quote
    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=15894&start=120
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8853.0
    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?p=187346
    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=15839&start=100
    Quote
    I accept the quran is work of God because it is not possible for humanity to produce a book like the quran. It will become obvious even for thinking atheists if I have the time and health to complete my work on the quran. Even if I do not it will guide interested others to carry on research where I leave. Well the my hope anyway but who knows.


     that is from Mughal in one of his responses

    old times nostalgia memories.... well yes,, we are all  getting old... but that is OK.,  that is the way life supposed to go...So back to Mughal's question..
    Quote
    Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation? 

    well for that we need to define those words first ..
    1).. God, 2). revelation  3). creation .. any way Mughal  says in that unimportant part of his post ..
    Quote
    I think we humans need to go through three stages of learning before we could talk about God in a sensible way.

    well as I said we can have infinite number of stages of learning ...  but that is ok ,, we can have three major stages and then many sub-stages under those three
    Quote
    Our first stage of learning is all about things we can detect directly with our senses after our birth. All we need to do is observe what things are and what they do and how they do what they do or why they do what they do. This is how we start rationalising things or this is how we start developing our logical thinking about things from the most simple to the most complex. If we do not learn things to this stage we cannot move on to the next stage. The better we are at reasoning the better is our understanding or comprehension of things. In the beginning we can only perform most simple tasks but as we get busy with our learning in time we come to the stage whereby we can perform most complex tasks.

       that is fine as a first basic step in the life of a child I agree with that Mughal..
    Quote
    Compare mechanism involved in a bike to the mechanisms involved in a car or an aeroplane etc. If we do not understand bike mechanism then we surely cannot understand aeroplane mechanisms

    .
      that is OK .. both are different transport devices that use mechanical assembly   and they can use biological/chemical/electrical/ or atomic energy to propel the device forward against some  friction..
    Quote
    Moreover if we do not understand visible mechanism then we cannot understand invisible mechanisms because for that we need to develop higher level of thinking ability.

    In this 21st century with internet on finger tips.,   we understand  the visible mechanisms of many mechanical/electrical/biological devices of the planet we live in   far far better than what  cave dwellers/story tellers/song sonnet writers of the past  that lived some 1000s of years ago..

    Quote
    Once we have reach first stage of thinking level then comes our second stage of learning which is about things that are not all directly reachable by our senses.

     that is OK.. I agree with that ... we can have some more sub-stages under that 2nd stage ..
    Quote
    Now we try our best to come up with tools or instruments whereby we extend our power of observations or detection. By this stage of knowledge we come to realise the fact that not all that exists is detectable by our senses directly. Here we start calling things visible as well as invisible or detectable as well as undeotectable. In other words we come to know by this stage that some things are accessible by us and others not. Now stage one of our learning comes to our help if had trained ourselves well in logical thinking. In case of first stage if one was using a bike for riding and it broke, it will only need a visible inspection to find fault in it eg if a person was riding a bike and was going along then suddenly the turning of pedals became ineffective then one will try to look at the bike to see what may have gone wrong. As the rider inspects the bike he sees the chain has broken down, one was able to find this fault very easy for two main reasons a)the mechanism was simple and b)the whole mechanism was visible directly. Had it been a tv set which had broken down then the fault finding process will not be that simple. It is because the tv set will have much more complex circuitry and will be involving many more components as well as some totally invisible things as well. So now we will have to be able to reason things out at a much higher level to figure out the fault. We will have to know functions of components and the involved circuitry as to how exactly these components etc make a tv set work the way it works so what could cause the fault that has developed in the tv set. Once we have reached this stage of learning then we need to go to yet higher stage of learning when we have to deal with things that are totally undetectable with our senses or even with any tool or instrument.

    dear Mughal  I fully understand your point of the existence of invisible world to our senses .,  I worked with Synchrotron light sources  where one uses invisible waves to probe structures of biological molecules at atomic lengths........  and I fully agree with you on the basic premises of your post that  ., we must keep options open to explore the vast invisible world that lives around us and far way from us in this universe
    Quote
    Unless one has reached stage one of thinking level one cannot go to stage two of learning and likewise if one has not mastered stage two of thinking level then one cannot go for stage three of thinking level. Stage one is about directly detectable or sensible things but stage two involves some detectable as well as some undetectable things. Stage three however involves things that are not detectable at all by us directly but there effects or affects are made obvious to us through explanation alone

    . that is fine ... I agree with you there   and  we can have more sub-stages under that stage 3.,  but   what you wrote below is a problem
    Quote
    No explanation is a visible object because it is only and only our mental process.

    yes ....indeed it is mental......... mental  process .. so let us keep that mental process open for all times for those people who can explore using their individual mental abilities ..  let us not lock it out to a book  by using  physical, emotional, political  forces....

    Quote
    This is why to know whether there is a God or not or that the quran is a book from God or not we need to be able to reason things out at stage three level. Unless one is really good at this one cannot know the truth with needed reasonable certainty.

    And I fully agree with you on that  "to reason, to debate, to discuss" ......  things...  and   also we must lean to differentiate .. god.  or  inquiring about god  from book/s written by some guys  as word of god...

    Quote


    and  let us continue on the subject and those links and many many  of your posts tells me the level of patience you have in life dear Mughal


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #6 - September 13, 2020, 02:19 PM

    is it consistent to claim insufficient knowledge of something but still assert some of its attributes? seems the equivalent of being definite about your uncertainty - something doesn't add up.


    Dear crumble, it is an observable reality that we human beings are born knowing absolutely nothing at all and no matter what we can only learn so much beyond which we cannot go. In other words there is a limit as to how far we can learn things. No human being can tell us names of all the kinds of plants for example let alone all kinds of things. Our universe is full of so many different kinds of things. We cannot know each and everything in all its detail. It is not possible for us. nonetheless it does not mean we cannot know anything at all about things. Why we are the way we are in respect of learning knowledge will hopefully become clear as this thread progresses. After all we are all on a journey of discovery.

    regards and all the best. 

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #7 - September 13, 2020, 02:26 PM

    So back to Mughal's post... my goodness .. I was causally checking web   and I get "Mughal and yeezevee"   all over.. that is from Mughal in one of his responses

    old times nostalgia memories.... well yes,, we are all  getting old... but that is OK.,  that is the way life supposed to go...So back to Mughal's question..well for that we need to define those words first ..
    1).. God, 2). revelation  3). creation .. any way Mughal  says in that unimportant part of his post ..well as I said we can have infinite number of stages of learning ...  but that is ok ,, we can have three major stages and then many sub-stages under those three    that is fine as a first basic step in the life of a child I agree with that Mughal...
      that is OK .. both are different transport devices that use mechanical assembly   and they can use biological/chemical/electrical/ or atomic energy to propel the device forward against some  friction..In this 21st century with internet on finger tips.,   we understand  the visible mechanisms of many mechanical/electrical/biological devices of the planet we live in   far far better than what  cave dwellers/story tellers/song sonnet writers of the past  that lived some 1000s of years ago..
     that is OK.. I agree with that ... we can have some more sub-stages under that 2nd stage ..dear Mughal  I fully understand your point of the existence of invisible world to our senses .,  I worked with Synchrotron light sources  where one uses invisible waves to probe structures of biological molecules at atomic lengths........  and I fully agree with you on the basic premises of your post that  ., we must keep options open to explore the vast invisible world that lives around us and far way from us in this universe . that is fine ... I agree with you there   and  we can have more sub-stages under that stage 3.,  but   what you wrote below is a problemyes ....indeed it is mental......... mental  process .. so let us keep that mental process open for all times for those people who can explore using their individual mental abilities ..  let us not lock it out to a book  by using  physical, emotional, political  forces....
    And I fully agree with you on that  "to reason, to debate, to discuss" ......  things...  and   also we must lean to differentiate .. god.  or  inquiring about god  from book/s written by some guys  as word of god...

    and  let us continue on the subject and those links and many many  of your posts tells me the level of patience you have in life dear Mughal




    Thanks for your response dear yeezevee. Although for the time being things are not going to make much sense because I am trying to explain different things for what my objective is so kindly bear with me but please do comment as you see fit. Hopefully things will become clear later on when we will discuss what I hope to discuss ie God, quran and islam.

    regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #8 - September 14, 2020, 11:26 AM

    Thanks for your response dear yeezevee. Although for the time being things are not going to make much sense because I am trying to explain different things for what my objective is so kindly bear with me but please do comment as you see fit.

    dear Mughal I may not agree with everything you write but I always read your posts ...indeed it is pleasure reading your thoughts.. specially on Quran.,
    Quote
    Hopefully things will become clear later on when we will discuss what I hope to discuss ie God, quran and islam.

    regards and all the best.

     let us keep that hope alive and let us keep working on it., by the way I remember you translating Quran your own way and your own understanding of Quran., Did you publish that as a book?? I guess for some reason I remember  reading it on Jang English version of it at https://www.thenews.com.pk/.... do you still have it on web??..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #9 - September 17, 2020, 04:35 PM

    dear Mughal I may not agree with everything you write but I always read your posts ...indeed it is pleasure reading your thoughts.. specially on Quran.,  let us keep that hope alive and let us keep working on it., by the way I remember you translating Quran your own way and your own understanding of Quran., Did you publish that as a book?? I guess for some reason I remember  reading it on Jang English version of it at https://www.thenews.com.pk/.... do you still have it on web??..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Dear yeezevee, yes, I am still busy with interpretation of the quran. This is why I am trying to explain things the way I understand them. During my study of the quran I realised that there are some aspects implications of which we human beings have not yet realised for proper understanding of the quran. We have been side tracked by each other instead of taking aboard some very basic but vitally important points. This is the reason I started this thread the way I did. It is because we need to be clear about some things before we actually discuss the quran.

    Atheism is having a go at the religion which I see as a good thing because it brings theists out of their depth and helps to drag them towards rationality so that they could become rational thinkers and give up the nonsense called religion. I myself am anti religion because it is very damaging for humanity in various ways. It does not bring people to God but leads them away from God into utter confusion and perplexity or puzzlement. Religion in my view is therefore a most dangerous thing for humanity, in fact more dangerous than atheism. It is because religion keeps people foolish or worse stupid or ignorant and illiterate. This I hope will become clear as we develop this discussion and I explain more and more things.

    My other point is against atheism ie to me God of the gaps is more appealing and better way to tackle this issue than no God approach till we come across God. Why? Because no God approach is also very dangerous for humanity to take as it has most serious consequences for humanity as we have been experiencing directly or indirectly all along throughout our lives ie Godless human society is a dangerous society by its very nature in my view based upon our life experiences. This is why to me there is a God unless we can prove otherwise. Why?

    It is because our main question to ourselves is, how did all that exists come about? Was it always there or was it brought into existence by a creator? In this regard a question arises, could non-existing things come about out of absolute nothingness? Or could zero ever equal one and vice versa? My answer is never. I mean nothing can come into existence out of absolute nothingness. This means either there is a creator or that all that exists is ever existing. Now ever existence of anything has its own implications eg whatever is ever existing remains the way it is and it cannot change in its nature because a thing can only change in its nature if some other outside force acts upon it. Since there is no other force there to begin with then ever existing thing cannot change in its nature therefore it must remain as it is or as it ever was.

    Since whatever exists before our eyes is always changing with time that means someone is causing it to change otherwise it could not change. This means whatever exists and is changing is not ever existing rather it was created by one who does not change. This means the universe was created by a God.

    Scientists say the creator has to be something simple so God is far too complex a being to be considered as a creator. I disagree. In my view the very existence of something simple is impossible. Why? Because to be simple and be ever existing both contradict each other. After all what did not exist could never come into existence. If something is ever existing then ever existence is not a simple thing. Moreover even for argument sake if we accept there is such a thing as simple then it will remain as it was forever. So it could not create the creation. To create the kind of creation we observe, it had to be at least as complex as the creation it has created by implication. Therefore It ought to be knowledgeable and it ought to be able choose and decide things etc etc. So the idea that God is far too complex being for start of creation is proven completely wrong.   

    This means we have a God and we have his creation because otherwise nothing could exist to begin with. So those who claim there is no God and all that exists came into being all by itself seem to be totally wrong. They have no basis to stand upon.

    regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #10 - September 18, 2020, 02:07 PM

    Mughal is a fantastic story teller with the patience that rivals no one.. ..  glad to read your response dear Mughal.,  and please do not stop writing..  but here i am going to make your response in to different parts as you are clubbing entirely different subjects in to one  post and and so i will separate the subjects  here and  respond to each of them individually in the  post
     
    1).......   Dear yeezevee, yes, I am still busy with interpretation of the quran. This is why I am trying to explain things the way I understand them. During my study of the quran I realized that there are some aspects implications of which we human beings have not yet realized for proper understanding of the quran. We have been side tracked by each other instead of taking aboard some very basic but vitally important points. This is the reason I started this thread the way I did. It is because we need to be clear about some things before we actually discuss the quran..

    I was under the impression  ((in fact I remember reading it in FFI))  you have your own version of Quran translation of interpretation  and I agree with you ,, Quran indeed is a very unique book .. A superficial .casual reading of it will not help the reader to understand the mind set of Quran writers and composers .,  the other serious problem is translators adding their own style which often add confusion to the reader , on who is saying what and to whom   as the book is written in  some sort of  discussion/debate/drama style..  and i fully agree with those highlighted words of yours ., although it side tracks the discussion from Quran to some other topics..

    Quote
    2)........Atheism is having a go at the religion which I see as a good thing because it brings theists out of their depth and helps to drag them towards rationality so that they could become rational thinkers and give up the nonsense called religion. I myself am anti religion because it is very damaging for humanity in various ways. It does not bring people to God but leads them away from God into utter confusion and perplexity or puzzlement. Religion in my view is therefore a most dangerous thing for humanity, in fact more dangerous than atheism. It is because religion keeps people foolish or worse stupid or ignorant and illiterate. This I hope will become clear as we develop this discussion and I explain more and more things.

     I fully agree with you there ..indeed this God of Human brain or God of universe .. OR THE GENTLE MAN WHO CREATED THIS UNIVERSE is different from the god described in every faith/religious book/s

    and I disagree with those  deleted words of yours .. because that is not true.,  It appears to be true in the case  of those faiths whose  followers  WILL NOT ALLOW. and WILL NOT GIVE FREEDOM TO PEOPLE  TO QUESTION WHAT IS THERE IN THEIR RESPECTIVE FAITH BOOKS/.PRECHINGS

    Quote
    3)..............My other point is against atheism ie to me God of the gaps is more appealing and better way to tackle this issue than no God approach till we come across God. Why? Because no God approach is also very dangerous for humanity to take as it has most serious consequences for humanity as we have been experiencing directly or indirectly all along throughout our lives ie Godless human society is a dangerous society by its very nature in my view based upon our life experiences. This is why to me there is a God unless we can prove otherwise. Why?

    Well  If  "NO GOD " idea  followers make their idea unquestionable then  they are as good as faith heads  ,, it is just they are "NO GOD" IDEA FAITH HEADS.  and unquestionable faiths and   yes the faith heads that follow these unquestionable faiths are sometimes dangerous to the society ..

    and yes you are right in  saying "God of the gaps is more appealing and better way"  because it gives freedom to people to explore those gaps and i tell you there are millions and millions  of those gaps ...
    Quote
    4)...........  It is because our main question to ourselves is, how did all that exists come about? Was it always there or was it brought into existence by a creator? In this regard a question arises, could non-existing things come about out of absolute nothingness? Or could zero ever equal one and vice versa? My answer is never. I mean nothing can come into existence out of absolute nothingness. This means either there is a creator or that all that exists is ever existing. Now ever existence of anything has its own implications eg whatever is ever existing remains the way it is and it cannot change in its nature because a thing can only change in its nature if some other outside force acts upon it. Since there is no other force there to begin with then ever existing thing cannot change in its nature therefore it must remain as it is or as it ever was.

    that is entirely different subject from Quran/god/religions/ faiths/faith heads dear Mughal.  it is best to deal with it independent of faiths and faith books  as it is nothing to do with  Quran/god/religions/ faiths/faith heads ...

    Quote
    5)..........Since whatever exists before our eyes is always changing with time that means someone is causing it to change otherwise it could not change. This means whatever exists and is changing is not ever existing rather it was created by one who does not change. This means the universe was created by a God.

    Nope I completely disagree with you there..,  that statement of yours  "whatever exists before our eyes is always changing with time"     is very ill defined and without that time span number  it is meaningless .

    , .. Time  and time scale is huge subject  from say .............shortest time a physicist use  in their calculations.. that is Planck time  .... ((Planck time is the time light takes to travel one Planck length. Theoretically, this is the smallest time measurement that will ever be possible)) to Astronomical time scale   say some 14 billion years  or so,,

    Your point on . "CHANGE in front of your eyes"  is irrelevant and meaningless with reference to vast times scales we are dealing with from (10) to the power of -24 seconds to (10) to the power of +24 seconds.,   please watch this video 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRtLXagrMHw

    That i casually pulled it out of KhanAcademy

    Quote
    6).......Scientists say the creator has to be something simple so God is far too complex a being to be considered as a creator. I disagree. In my view the very existence of something simple is impossible. Why? Because to be simple and be ever existing both contradict each other. After all what did not exist could never come into existence. If something is ever existing then ever existence is not a simple thing. Moreover even for argument sake if we accept there is such a thing as simple then it will remain as it was forever. So it could not create the creation. To create the kind of creation we observe, it had to be at least as complex as the creation it has created by implication. Therefore It ought to be knowledgeable and it ought to be able choose and decide things etc etc. So the idea that God is far too complex being for start of creation is proven completely wrong.   

    This means we have a God and we have his creation because otherwise nothing could exist to begin with. So those who claim there is no God and all that exists came into being all by itself seem to be totally wrong. They have no basis to stand upon.

    I have to respond to your post in parts because a flat response from me will make a  looooong and and a unreadable  post.. 

    Your point 6 is drifting faraway from the book Quran.. or other faith books...... faiths ...... faith heads ..  God, revelation and creation etc...,   etc...    that too it is filled  with  unproven assumptions and fallacies dear Mughal  and I understand the problem that subject is very complex  hence assumptions and  gedanken experiments are necessary
     
    *****

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #11 - September 24, 2020, 09:40 AM

    well on these  QUESTIONS AND WORDS from Mughal's post
    how did all that exists come about?
    Was it always there or was it brought into existence by a creator?
     could non-existing things come about out of absolute nothingness?
    Or could zero ever equal one and vice versa? 
    ..........time ..........
     ...........the universe  ................
    ...........Scientists .................
    .............creation ................
     

     let me add some tube links... that are relevant to what   Mughal' saying on   "TIME:"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TiQidGPHA4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAScJvxCy2Y

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWo5SnrrOU4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN1KJ8LYW3U


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #12 - September 25, 2020, 07:33 PM

    Thanks dear yeezevee for your kind responses. While you are going to carry on with things your way I will carry on clarifying my point of view regarding things. As I explained already, things are not going to make sense yet because I am first going to explain some important or key points and then I will try and put them in the context. Till then I will try and continue. In short I am trying to explain the reasons why humanity has failed very badly in understanding the quran properly.

    regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #13 - September 25, 2020, 07:34 PM

    My next problem is with people who say there is no scientific knowledge in the quran. This in my view is result of their lack of awareness or realisation of the fact that people do not have knowledge of the future ie people cannot know future till it comes to pass. In other words we human beings cannot know things we must come to know till our time has come for knowing those things.

    Let me try and explain this issue by way of an example. Let us suppose we have a newly born baby and all his relatives have phds in various fields of knowledge. Can they teach all that they know to that new born baby at once? No, they cannot. Why not? It is because we humans are created by God to grow or evolve with time both psychologically as well as biologically so we cannot learn anything at all till our time has come to learn it. So people even to memorise a message need ample time let alone its proper understanding. People are born knowing absolutely nothing. They need to start learning things by direct experience of things and this is where science starts from because without direct interactions with things we could not learn or know anything at all in our lives. It is because as I explained already in my very first post our brains can only understand things by way of explanations of things alone. In other words explanations arise in our minds by thinking or reasoning after observation of things. The question is what are we doing when we say we are reasoning? We try to connect dots in our minds about things we are thinking about. As explained already in my first post we learn how to make links or connections between things just as we learned right from the start by looking at nature as to how things are interconnected.

    This is how we use a mental process called deductive reasoning. This is why my first post is very important for people to try and understand. This is why people who have not yet learned to be rational at the very basic level they cannot understand the quran either because the quran is a book for people who have reached the highest stage or level of understanding things rationally. It is because people who have translated and interpreted the quran they have not reached that level therefore they have turned the message in the quran into a nonsense in their translations or interpretations.

    This is why in my view we cannot have any proper interpretation of the quran till we reach the level of knowledge that is required for interpreting the quran properly. The quran talks about all things essential for knowledge of humanity for bringing about a proper human community in the kingdom of God. They cannot do so till they learn the quran as it ought to be learned. A scripture from God had to be such that was sensible or rational so irrational people till they become rationally solid could never interpret it correctly. One has to think about how many people we have in this world who have attained to three levels of understanding things I have explained. In this world as far as I see it, a lot of people are ignorant, illiterate, uneducated, untrained or unskilled or inexperienced in thinking or reasoning things properly so they are superstitious who believe anything and everything without being able to reason things out properly. In short they have not learned the sense of making proper sense of things.

    Besides being able to put two and two together we humans have a huge problem with human language. Very few of us have ability to know and use our mother tongue as effectively as it ought to be used. Our vocabularies are very limited this is why we cannot express ourselves to each other properly. We can see a dictionary has say 100 thousand words but how many of them we can truly spell correctly or know their meanings or proper uses? Then how many of us know how human languages came about and developed? Why is this vitally important to know? It is because our use of language is very different from God's use of language. Why it is different? It is because God already knows all there is to know about any and everything but we humans don't. Why not? Because it takes time for us to discover or learn things as already explained. For example, when we use a word for naming something, we do not necessary know anything much about the thing we name but God does in all its detail. For example, we named a thing, human being, but what do we really know about this creature we call a human? So far very little. Had God told us things about human beings, could we therefore understand them? No, I just gave example of a baby with phd relatives. We will still need time to grow and make sense of things by ourselves at our own pace of learning through direct interacting with things. So our level of knowledge is no where near level of knowledge of God. It can never be. Moreover God did not reveal his message to reinforce the nonsense we already have gathered in our heads but to teach us something very different because he had a purpose in his mind for creating us human beings and all the rest of things we see all around us or not see yet because they are hidden from us or are beyond our reach. This is why he revealed his message to tell us what his purpose was and what part in his scheme of things we need to play in order to fulfil that purpose. This is why he told us how to live or what to do and how to do it so that we could fulfil the purpose for which God has created us. This is why knowing the quran properly is absolutely necessary for us as it ought to be known but it cannot be known unless we come to know its related real world realities first. In other words we must first go through our learning stages as explained already before we the people could make any real sense of the quran.

    Coming to human languages, in our human languages words have multiple meanings, the question is how can we come to know what meaning is meant by God for a word when we try to understand or make sense of message of God? This is where in comes the idea of context. This is why the quran cannot be understood unless we first try to read it to discover its proper context. This is why anyone who criticises the text of the quran must first learn a lot of vitally important things before one could say anything and everything about the quran properly. Just knowing a particular language is not enough to interpret the quran, this is why even arabs are as confused as nonarabs when it comes to proper understanding of the quran. Arabs do not know how to understand the quran properly. Why not? Because they are as dumb about things I am talking about and going to talk about as any other people in the world. Just by reading a book we cannot understand things it talks about till we also learn properly about its related things and understand them, so that we could make sense of the book. That is where proper understanding comes from. You cannot be a good politician just by reading a book about politics or for that matter any other book about anything else eg economics or engineering or medicine or law or even a cooking book etc etc. Let me explain it by way of an example. Suppose you tell a baby, make me a cup of tea. What do you think the baby needs to know before he could make you a cup of tea? Can you see where I am getting at? Likewise if we do not learn about things we need to know for proper understanding of the quranic message then we cannot understand the quran properly. This is why people spend a good several years in learning some professions or trades. This is why to specialise in understanding of the quran properly one has to do vitally needed homework.

    Coming back to origin and develop of human language, why knowing its origin and development is vitally important for us? It is because only and only then we can know the mechanism involved in origin of words and their meanings or how words came about and how they got their meanings. This is how we can come to know why words have the meaning they have. Once we know the mechanism then we will never be able to dispute with one another as to how many different meanings the very same word can have in a human language and why nor how many different words actually have the very same meaning as well. It will first confuse us very much when we will become aware of the fact that a word can have thousands of meanings and that thousands of words can be used for expressing the very same meaning. It is this very reason that forced me to try to write a special dictionary for this purpose. A type of dictionary that no one has bothered to write yet.

    Vocabulary is necessary for two reasons a)for expressing our own thoughts to others because the better command we have on language the better we are able to express ourselves to others so that others could get what we mean by saying something b) for understanding others ie the better we can sense what others are saying or telling us the better we will be able to understand their intentions as to what they mean by saying what they have said. Language is basically about naming things so that we could know what or who we are talking about. It is about their descriptions or what they do or why they do what they do or how they do what they do or where they do what they do or when they do what they do etc etc. Not only that we learn about how things are positioned relative to each other or how they are related to each other. Moreover we need to get things together at times and separate them at other times etc etc. So human language is no doubt a very complex thing to make sense of. This is why people spend years in mastering it just regarding its use.

    Some times we see things are so simple but at other times so complex eg if we look at maths or things, we are always either putting things together or busy separating them depending upon how they suit us or serve our purposes. This is what all sciences and all life is about ie to deconstruct what is naturally there and reconstruct it the way it serves our purposes. Take a tree for example, we chop it up and make lovely things out of its wood. Same we do with the earth and all it contains. All because we observed the natural world and found out what nature does and how it does it so we put that into practice and make things the way they suit us. Problem only arises when we do things our way in such a way that we become a terrible problem for each other in this world. This is where in comes the need for guidance from God our creator and provider of all things for our living so that we could have a purposeful great life in this world as well as in hereafter.

    This hopefully is going to be continued

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #14 - September 28, 2020, 01:03 PM

    Thanks dear yeezevee for your kind responses.

    ............... In short I am trying to explain the reasons why humanity has failed very badly in understanding the quran properly.

    regards and all the best.

    My next problem is with people who say there is no scientific knowledge in the quran. This in my view is result of their lack of awareness or realisation of the fact that people do not have knowledge of the future ie people cannot know future till it comes to pass. In other words we human beings cannot know things we must come to know till our time has come for knowing those things.

    Let me try and explain this issue by way of an example. Let us suppose we have a newly born baby and all his relatives have phds in various fields of knowledge. Can they teach all that they know to that new born baby at once? No, they cannot. Why not? It is because we humans are created by God to grow or evolve with time both psychologically as well as biologically so we cannot learn anything at all till our time has come to learn it. So people even to memorise a message need ample time let alone its proper understanding. People are born knowing absolutely nothing. They need to start learning things by direct experience of things and this is where science starts from because without direct interactions with things we could not learn or know anything at all in our lives. It is because as I explained already in my very post our brains can only understand things by way of explanations of things alone. In other words explanations arise by thinking after observation of things and then only and only by deduction process when it comes to thinking at highest level. This is why my first post is very important for people to try and understand. This is why people who have not yet learned to be rational at the very basic level they cannot understand the quran either because the quran is a book for people who have reached the highest stage or level of understanding things rationally. It is because people who have translated and interpreted the quran they have not reached that level therefore they have turned the message of the quran into a nonsense in their translations and interpretations.

    This is why in my view we cannot have any proper interpretation of the quran till we reach the level of knowledge that is required for interpreting the quran properly. The quran talks about all things essential for knowledge of humanity for bringing about a proper human community in the kingdom of God. They cannot do so till they learn the quran as it ought to be learned. A scripture from God had to be such that was sensible or rational so irrational people till they become rationally solid could never interpret it correctly. One has to think about how many people we have in this world that have attained to three levels of knowledge I have explained. In this world as far as I see it, a lot of people are superstitious who believe anything and everything without being able to reason things out properly.

    Besides being able to put two and two together we have a huge problem with human language. Very few of us have ability to know and use our mother tongue. Our vocabularies are very limited. We can see a dictionary has say 100 thousand words but how many of them we can truly spell correctly or know their meanings or proper uses? Then how many of us know how human languages came about and developed? Why is this vitally important to know? It is because our use of language is very different from God's use of language. Why it is different? It is because God already knows all there is to know about any and everything but we humans don't. Why not? Because it takes time for us to learn things as already explained. For example, when we use a word for naming something, we do not necessary know anything much about the thing but God does in all its detail. For example, we named a thing, human being, but what do we really know about this creature? So far very little. Had God told us things about human beings, could we understand them? No, I just gave example of a baby with phd relatives. We will still need time to make sense of things by ourselves at our own pace of learning through direct interacting with things. So our level of knowledge is no where near level of knowledge of God. It can never be. Moreover God did not reveal his message to reinforce the nonsense we have already gathered in our heads but to teach us something very different because he had a purpose in his mind for creating us human beings and all the rest we see or not see yet. This is why he revealed his message to tell us what his purpose was and what part in his scheme of things we need to play in order to fulfil that purpose. This is why he told us how to live or what to do or how to do it so that we could fulfil the purpose for which God has created us. This is why knowing the quran properly is absolutely necessary as it ought to be known but it cannot be known unless we come to know its related real world realities first. In other words we must first go through our learning stages explained already before people can make any real sense of the quran.

    In our human languages words have multiple meanings, the question is how can we come to know what meaning is meant by God when we try to understand or make sense of message of God? This is where in comes the idea of context. This is why the quran cannot be understood unless we first try to read it to discover its proper context. This is why anyone who criticises the text of the quran must first learn a lot of vitally important things before one says anything and everything about the quran. Just knowing a particular language is not enough to interpret the quran, this is why even arabs are as confused as nonarabs when it comes to proper understanding of the quran. Arabs do not know how to understand the quran properly. Why not? Because they are as dumb about things I am talking about as any other people in the world. Just by reading a book we cannot understand things it talks about till we learn the things involved ourselves properly so taht we could make sense of the book. That is where understanding comes from. You cannot be a good politician just by reading a book about politics or for that matter any other book about anything else eg economics or engineering or medicine or law or even a cooking book etc etc. This is why people spend a good several years in learning some professions or trades. This is why to specialise in understanding of the quran properly one has to do some homework.

    Coming back to origin and develop of human language, why knowing its origin and development is vitally important for us? It is because only and only then we can know the mechanism involved in origin of words and their meanings or how words came about and how they got their meanings. This is how we can come to know why words have the meaning they have. Once we know the mechanism then we will never be able to dispute with one another as to how many different meanings the very same word can have in a human language and why nor how many different words actually have the very same meaning as well. It will first confuse us very much when we will become aware of the fact that words can have thousands of meanings and that thousands of words can have the very same meaning as well not just a couple or a few or even several we are used to as we have them in our simple dictionaries. It is this very reason that forced me to try to write a special dictionary for this purpose. A type of dictionary that no one has bothered to write yet.

    Vocabulary is necessary for two reasons a)for expressing our own thoughts because the better command we have on language the better we are able to express ourselves b) for understanding others ie the better we can sense what others are saying or telling us the better we will be able to understand their intentions as to what they mean by saying what they have said. Language is basically about naming things so that we could know what or who we are talking about. It is about their descriptions or what they do or why they do what they do or how they do what they do or where they do what they do or when they do what do etc etc. Not only that we learn about how things are positioned relative to or related to each other. Moreover we need to get things together at times and separate them at other times etc etc. So human language is no doubt a very complex thing to make sense of. This is why people spend years in mastering it just regarding its use.

    Some times we see things are so simple but at other times so complex eg if we look at maths or things, we are always either putting things together or busy separating them depending upon how they suit us or serve our purposes. This is what all sciences and all life is about ie to deconstruct what is naturally there and reconstruct it the way it serves our purposes. Take a tree for example, we chop it up and make lovely things out of its wood. Same with the earth and all it contains. All because we observed the natural world and found out what nature does and how it does it so we put that into practice and make things the way they suit us. Problem only arises when we do things our way in such a way that we become a terrible problem for each other in this world. This is where in comes the need for guidance from God our creator and provider of all things for our living so that we could have a purposeful great life in this world as well as in hereafter.

    This hopefully is going to be continued

    dear  Mughal you are one of the most patient and kindest person i have ever interacted in discussing Islam and other faiths . As far as your words on  "why humanity has failed very badly in understanding the quran properly. "  and other wall of text post is concerned .,   we have discussed and debated these things before  and we can do it again and again

    But.. but ., you said these following words during a similar debate some 8 years ago on Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:19 pm
    Quote
    .........................all translations of the quran are rubbish because they do not tell us what the quran is actually telling us. They do not have this foundation that I am talking about............. .....  Mughal  Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:19 pm


    that must be the good reason   "why humanity has failed very badly in understanding the quran properly. " /., Here I was under the impression that  you did   translate  the Quran in your own way .,

    Question is  DID YOU PUBLISH IT??., if you did.,   please give me the link to buy  your  Quran translation.......   your version of Tafsir Quran......     I am sure you have done a thorough job of translating Quran according to your views and your understanding..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #15 - October 01, 2020, 12:14 PM

    Quote from:
    In other words we must first go through our learning stages as explained already before we the people could make any real sense of the quran.


    only experts in language/history/religion are allowed to have an opinion on a compilation of  poetic verses? You write more eloquently than akay but it's still mostly nonsense.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #16 - October 01, 2020, 01:55 PM

    dear  Mughal you are one of the most patient and kindest person i have ever interacted in discussing Islam and other faiths . As far as your words on  "why humanity has failed very badly in understanding the quran properly. "  and other wall of text post is concerned .,   we have discussed and debated these things before  and we can do it again and again

    But.. but ., you said these following words during a similar debate some 8 years ago on Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:19 pm
    that must be the good reason   "why humanity has failed very badly in understanding the quran properly. " /., Here I was under the impression that  you did   translate  the Quran in your own way .,

    Question is  DID YOU PUBLISH IT??., if you did.,   please give me the link to buy  your  Quran translation.......   your version of Tafsir Quran......     I am sure you have done a thorough job of translating Quran according to your views and your understanding..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee




    Thanks for your kind remarks dear yeezevee, No I have not managed to complete my translation of the quran yet. Reason hopefully will become apparent as I explain things but I am very much hopeful for completing the task undertaken God willing.

    Meanwhile regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #17 - October 01, 2020, 02:08 PM

    Let me now try to go into a bit of detail of the issues I raised for explanations ie the human language and the science in the quran. No doubt the quran is a book of science from the very beginning to the very end but whenever scientists make any discovery we do not see it in the existing interpretations of the quran, why not? It is because interpretations of the quranic text are by human beings and human beings cannot understand things of the future till that future becomes their present or comes to pass. This is why criticising the quranic text instead of understanding the issue involved is not a valid way to go about this issue. The right way to look at the quranic text is to see if the text in the quran remains in line with our solid new discoveries because that is all we can do due to lack of our ability to see into the future or past or even wider present.

    It is an indisputable fact that when it comes to our knowledge about the future, all we can do is look at the possibilities and if there is a way whereby the quranic text can be justified in light of our new scientific discoveries then we cannot declare the quranic text invalid. Of course, we can declare any interpretation of the quran by anyone invalid if it fails to justify the quranic text provided we can prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the quranic text is justified by reinterpreting it in light of our new discoveries. The question is how do we do that? We can do that by having the quranic text and a dictionary which has the possible meanings of words used in the quran according to the mechanism whereby words have been interpreted throughout the history of the human language. In short all we need is the quran and a comprehensive dictionary of the quranic words with their possible meanings.

    Our existing dictionaries are also very useful because they help us discover the mechanism whereby people used to give new meanings to already existing words for their purposes or uses. So long as people of the past could update their dictionaries by giving the old words new meanings they did not necessarily invent new words. This point about relationship between human language and human progress is vitally important to grasp before one could interpret the quran properly. On this basis the quran is a book of science because it is about a way of life which can ensure progress of humanity at a speed not possible otherwise. I will come to how of this later when I will discuss what is meant by way of life which the quran advises for humanity. This is what forced me to write a new kind of dictionary so that people could to some degree become independent of interpreters of the scriptures. This short explanation solves the conflict which people have in their minds between the quran and the science forever.   

    Coming to human language, it is of vital importance to know that human language was not there in the begin rather it was invented by human beings themselves as they came about and evolved or progressed with time just as humans have been inventing things through out times and places.

    When it comes to the quran, just as we do not know our future so we do not know our past either or for that matter our present at a much wider scale. All we can do is try our best to figure out ways to see if we can get some ideas about our present or past or future etc. This is why we always try to work out ways for knowing things to some degree as far as it is possible for us regardless they are about past, present or future. So the main thing is knowing the ways for being, having, using or doing things. So long as we can know something beyond any reasonable doubt that should be sufficient for living our lives on that basis because it is not possible for humanity to know anything one hundred percent nor everything 100%. This is because we can only trust our minds and senses up to a degree and not 100%. All our knowledge is based upon trial and error method which in turn is based upon suppositions. This is why in learning knowledge we can only go as far as it is practical or possible for us. Beyond that our thinking cannot go because our logic breaks down. This is why we can only know some of the things about God but not the rest.
     

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #18 - October 06, 2020, 05:48 AM

    Another vitally important thing one must come to know to understand the quran properly is origin and development of human language to some degree. To see why translating or interpreting the quran is so difficult for humanity as a whole. We humans are responsible for interpreting the message of God correctly regardless whatever we claim to be. We have no right to misinterpret the quran deliberately or we can never escape terrible consequences told in the quran for us. The quran is full of warnings to save mankind from terrible painful sufferings. I will explain this point later on when I will start explaining quranic words and their related concepts in detail. Just now I am explaining human language as regard its origin and development asbout the relationship between words and their meanings or the mechanism involved in this process.

    Coming to human languages, they all come from the very same original human language. Why? It is because all of us human beings are descendents of the very same original people, so if we came from the original people then we could not have any different original language than the one they used. This is why all our existing languages once we have completed our language family tree will reveal this fact. It is quite possible to retrace languages back to the original mother language. Languages only became different later on when people migrated away from each other and never went back to their ancestral lands. The reason is inventions by humans never ceased with time and as they invented more and more things they had to name them with new words and they had to explain their functionalities etc. This is how human languages became different due to addition of new words and their meanings in different places.

    The original human language developed over a very, very long period of time because originally there was very small human population and ideas also came very very slowly to minds of those people but as human population increased and people got more and more ideas they realised they can make sounds as well along with their bodily gestures. People originally made simple gestures which gradually turned into more and more complex gestures just like a human baby does even today and as people gradually turned to sounds they realised they could communicate with each other through sounds as well. Then as they desired to express themselves better and better to each other they got the idea of writing things down in shapes of pictures which were later turned into letters and then much later people became able to read and write as we do today.

    People originally only had very simple thinking ability which developed in them over a very long period of time. Once people started thinking more and more and they got better and better they they developed language to express themselves to each other better and better. When they invented words to express their ideas to each other, they tried to express their concept using less number of words just like a baby does today and as time passed they perfected their this idea more and more. This is why original human language expressed a lot of concepts using the very same word and as time passed more and more words were used for expressing the very same concepts. This is why human language is very complex to figure out as to what one is saying unless one is used to living in an environment within a group of people. It is like a mother understands what her baby wants when he cries. She over time realised that when her baby cries he needs her attention because he may be hungry or has wet his nappy or that something is bothering him etc etc. So one can see that just one gesture of crying creates a few possibilities for a mother to figure out as to why the baby is crying. This is the start of understanding human language as to how it came about. It shows how someone makes a body a body or sound gesture and how others make something out of it and try to do something in response. This is why human language uses very same word for many different meanings and many words for the very same meaning.

    The alphabet set we use today which contains letters was a set of pictures originally if you like which conveyed some ideas or concepts. We call it alphabet set because this word is made of first two letters of the alphabet set ie ALAF and BAA. In greek alaf was called alpha and baa was called beta. Because languages came from each other so different people made different things of the very same thing. This is what we call different languages. Any human can learn any language within a few years if one tries passionately. So the excuse the quran should be in my own mother tongue is no excuse. The reason is none of us knows even our own mother tongue to the detail the quran requires. The language of the quran is such that each and every human beings needs to learn it right from the beginning. It is because the information the quran contains is vitally important for humanity to know because it teaches mankind what a proper way of life is for humanity to live in this world properly so that it could have the kind of existence it is promised in the quran by God.     

    Let us now examine the mechanism involved between words and their meanings. Let us talk about letter BAA. It was called BAIT in hebrew and arabic etc. Why because it had something to do with place of living or place of residence. Most people interpret it as house. However, the question is, why it is interpreted as house? It is because it is a place of one's residence. This word alone has very many meanings based upon the reason as to what is meant by a place of residence. It needs a context for its proper understanding as to what one means when one uses it for purpose of place of residence. The place of residence is my address but what is my address? How do I answer this question? It depends on who is asking me this questions and what is the reason for which I need to answer this question. It is part of my identity. Already things are getting complicated, are they not? This shows word bait does not mean house ie a building I am living in for the time being. The place I am living in could be as small as it can be and as large as it can be. Pay attention to what I am saying here because it is vitally important point I am raising for people to realise or become aware of. It is this lack of awareness that makes people interpret the quran very very wrongly. My place of living is a room in which I am living or a house in which I am living. My place of living is the village in which I am living, My place of living could the town or city or country in which I am living or even the world in which I am living etc etc. The context will decide what is meant by word bait not just the word because the word can have so many different meanings for various reasons. For example, a house is a secure place wherein I feel safe. It is my shelter or my protection or sanctuary or asylum or orphanage or safe haven. Because this very understanding of use of a human language is missing in minds of people therefore they fail very badly in understanding the quranic text properly.

    This is the very mechanism whereby words get their meanings and if one is unfamiliar with this mechanism then one can never understand the quran. When words were used to give things names originally there were reasons for doing so. Arabic is a special language because it links us to our past languages an well as to our future languages. This is why the quran, the final revelation from God has been revealed in this language due to its proper preservation. Now the next vitally important point, which is future meanings of words used in the quran. Now that we know the mechanism whereby the words used in the quran got their meanings in the past we too can use the very same mechanism to derive further meanings for them on the very same grounds or basis. This is why the quran can never become old or an ancient book that has nothing at all to do with our future. Now I ask people what is meaning of words BAITULLAH? You will agree it can mean many things not what ignorant mullahs tell us ie a house in makkah, saudi arabia. It means kingdom of God ie the universe or this world in which we humans live ie we humans are citizens of kingdom of God. In other words we are living in the house made by God for us and therefore we must live in this house by rules of God ie by the rules of the house owner. It also means a place from wherein people carry out orders of God for serving humanity. The very same thing one will see in use of word MASJID. It means a place of worship of God ie an administrative office from wherein people carry out duties God has imposed upon them regarding serving humanity. Nothing at all to do with pooja paat of God.

    Already a sensible person will realise what we are told about the quran by foolish mullahs has nothing at all to do with the quran and islam the quran proposes. For the very same reason I take philosophers an scientists who talk rubbish about the quran as fools. Because even if muslims have misinterpreted the quran for whatever reasons at least you people should have done a good job of it because you claim to know more than author of the quran. This is question about honesty and knowledge of people and the right of a book to be interpreted correctly and honestly regardless who its author is. These like are the reason I named this thread the way I did.   

    When it comes to our knowledge of our past or present or future it is very limited as I have explained it already. Not only that but many of us do not even know things some of us humans have already discovered by now because they lag behind others in their knowledge about things. So knowledge gaps between human beings are a reality. This is why we must teach each other as well as learn from each other and discuss things with each other so that we could know things we should. However when we teach or learn or discuss things with each other we need to have right mindset, attitude and behaviour that is conducive to teaching or learning or discussing things. The wrong mindset, attitude or behaviour will only defeat the very purpose of the exercise. 

    Just to recap, human language came about gradually because first of all there were no human beings on this earth at all. In fact there was no life at all nor any living thing on this earth and if we go back even the earth was not there. God brought about things from things, so the idea that humans did not evolve from other things is utter nonsense by ignorant people we call mullahs or priesthood etc. When humans came about they originally used to make gestures and simple sounds and as time passed they gradually learned to speak and then they discovered writing and so came about reading and writing culture. With time gestures turned into sounds and words but basically humans were expressing what was in their minds ie their thoughts just like human babies do even today.

    In the beginning a human baby just makes some bodily movements and some sounds that are as simple as they can be. Gradually this baby builds on that and makes more and more complex gestures and sounds. There comes a stage when the baby starts speaking but he uses the very same sound or gesture to express so many things. This is like using the very same word for everything in a way. As baby grows he starts using more and more words for saying different things. This is the beginning of our vocabulary. This is where comes from our concept of same word for everything and so many different words for the very same thing.

    When people learned reading and writing they used pictographs not letters as we use today. By picture they conveyed many things and concepts or what they meant by certain pictures or pictographs. Later for ease of writing there came about letters and again despite speaking different languages people used the very same letters to write them, Just like today we can write any language using any set of etters eg use persian letters or hindi letters or roman letters etc. As time passed people brought about new letter shapes to help them write things down easily and with clarity just like arabic numeric symbols instead of romans when solving mathetical problems.

    Looking at arabic alphabet set, it came from various ancestral languages eg hebrew, syriac, aramaic etc etc. Letters of the set conveyed various concepts eg letter BAITH meant a tent or a household or a people who are interconnected in a place. This is why it means a place where someone lives or resides or abides. The word in its meaning is as tiny as possible and as large as possible ie it means house or dwelling of a single person as well as of all people living in a place. depending upon how it is used and for what purpose. This is why word bait can means a house as well as a village or town or city or country or kingdom or the whole world or whole of the universe. It is because it depends upon how we use the word. All because a person is a citizen of this universe as well as this world or a particular country or kingdom or a city or town or village etc etc. A citizen or dweller of the city or town or village or the tent. This is a vitally important point to understand for proper understanding the quran. It uses simple words to convey most complex ideas. So people who do not or are unable to take such points into consideration can never be able to translate or interpret the quran properly.

    For the very reason they cannot see the science in the quran. It is because when scientists discover things and someone says such and such is already told in the quran a debate starts that you are twisting words to fit the quran. If there was science already in the quran then why ancient interpreters of the quran did not predict such and such in their interpretations? These people do not realise the fact already pointed out that humans no matter what cannot see into the future so things which people cannot know till their times comes how could they predict them? The quran contains such information because it is not a book written by human beings but for people to know what is written in the quran they must first reach that stage of knowledge to realise it. This is why people need to look at the quran not as a book of scientific predictions that way but as a book of predictions in the sense that, is there anything in the quran that cannot be justified according to current state of human knowledge? One will see that text of the quran is such due to using such wide range meaning words that it will never be found contradicting known facts.

    There are many such like points one can find in the quran that clearly show this book could not have come from human beings because human minds cannot think that wide or in that much depth as is found in the quran. Real problem however is that human beings needs to be that wide and deep thinking to see these like points as I have raised so far.

    Hopefully in my next post I will try to explain why it is vitally important to keep the quran in its own category rather than mixing it with the rest of religious holy books. 

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #19 - October 06, 2020, 09:24 AM

    Another vitally important thing one must come to know to understand the quran properly is origin and development of human language to some degree. To see why translating or interpreting the quran is so difficult for humanity as a whole.
    We humans are responsible for interpreting the message of God correctly regardless whatever we claim to be. We have no right to misinterpret the quran deliberately or we can never escape terrible consequences told in the quran for us. The quran is full of warnings to save mankind from terrible painful sufferings. I will explain this point later on when I will start explaining quranic words and their related concepts in detail. Just now I am explaining human language as regard its origin and development asbout the relationship between words and their meanings or the mechanism involved in this process.

    Coming to human languages, they all come from the very same original human language. Why? It is because all of us human beings are descendents of the very same original people, so if we came from the original people then we could not have any different original language than the one they used. This is why all our existing languages once we have completed our language family tree will reveal this fact. It is quite possible to retrace languages back to the original mother language. Languages only became different later on when people migrated away from each other and never went back to their ancestral lands. The reason is inventions by humans never ceased with time and as they invented more and more things they had to name them with new words and they had to explain their functionalities etc. This is how human languages became different due to addition of new words and their meanings in different places.

    The original human language developed over a very, very long period of time because originally there was very small human population and ideas also came very very slowly to minds of those people but as human population increased and people got more and more ideas they realised they can make sounds as well along with their bodily gestures. People originally made simple gestures which gradually turned into more and more complex gestures just like a human baby does even today and as people gradually turned to sounds they realised they could communicate with each other through sounds as well. Then as they desired to express themselves better and better to each other they got the idea of writing things down in shapes of pictures which were later turned into letters and then much later people became able to read and write as we do today.

    People originally only had very simple thinking ability which developed in them over a very long period of time. Once people started thinking more and more and they got better and better they they developed language to express themselves to each other better and better. When they invented words to express their ideas to each other, they tried to express their concept using less number of words just like a baby does today and as time passed they perfected their this idea more and more. This is why original human language expressed a lot of concepts using the very same word and as time passed more and more words were used for expressing the very same concepts. This is why human language is very complex to figure out as to what one is saying unless one is used to living in an environment within a group of people. It is like a mother understands what her baby wants when he cries. She over time realised that when her baby cries he needs her attention because he may be hungry or has wet his nappy or that something is bothering him etc etc. So one can see that just one gesture of crying creates a few possibilities for a mother to figure out as to why the baby is crying. This is the start of understanding human language as to how it came about. It shows how someone makes a body a body or sound gesture and how others make something out of it and try to do something in response. This is why human language uses very same word for many different meanings and many words for the very same meaning.

    The alphabet set we use today which contains letters was a set of pictures originally if you like which conveyed some ideas or concepts. We call it alphabet set because this word is made of first two letters of the alphabet set ie ALAF and BAA. In greek alaf was called alpha and baa was called beta. Because languages came from each other so different people made different things of the very same thing. This is what we call different languages. Any human can learn any language within a few years if one tries passionately. So the excuse the quran should be in my own mother tongue is no excuse. The reason is none of us knows even our own mother tongue to the detail the quran requires. The language of the quran is such that each and every human beings needs to learn it right from the beginning. It is because the information the quran contains is vitally important for humanity to know because it teaches mankind what a proper way of life is for humanity to live in this world properly so that it could have the kind of existence it is promised in the quran by God.     

    Let us now examine the mechanism involved between words and their meanings. Let us talk about letter BAA. It was called BAIT in hebrew and arabic etc. Why because it had something to do with place of living or place of residence. Most people interpret it as house. However, the question is, why it is interpreted as house? It is because it is a place of one's residence. This word alone has very many meanings based upon the reason as to what is meant by a place of residence. It needs a context for its proper understanding as to what one means when one uses it for purpose of place of residence. The place of residence is my address but what is my address? How do I answer this question? It depends on who is asking me this questions and what is the reason for which I need to answer this question. It is part of my identity. Already things are getting complicated, are they not? This shows word bait does not mean house ie a building I am living in for the time being. The place I am living in could be as small as it can be and as large as it can be. Pay attention to what I am saying here because it is vitally important point I am raising for people to realise or become aware of. It is this lack of awareness that makes people interpret the quran very very wrongly. My place of living is a room in which I am living or a house in which I am living. My place of living is the village in which I am living, My place of living could the town or city or country in which I am living or even the world in which I am living etc etc. The context will decide what is meant by word bait not just the word because the word can have so many different meanings for various reasons. For example, a house is a secure place wherein I feel safe. It is my shelter or my protection or sanctuary or asylum or orphanage or safe haven. Because this very understanding of use of a human language is missing in minds of people therefore they fail very badly in understanding the quranic text properly.

    This is the very mechanism whereby words get their meanings and if one is unfamiliar with this mechanism then one can never understand the quran. When words were used to give things names originally there were reasons for doing so. Arabic is a special language because it links us to our past languages an well as to our future languages. This is why the quran, the final revelation from God has been revealed in this language due to its proper preservation. Now the next vitally important point, which is future meanings of words used in the quran. Now that we know the mechanism whereby the words used in the quran got their meanings in the past we too can use the very same mechanism to derive further meanings for them on the very same grounds or basis. This is why the quran can never become old or an ancient book that has nothing at all to do with our future. Now I ask people what is meaning of words BAITULLAH? You will agree it can mean many things not what ignorant mullahs tell us ie a house in makkah, saudi arabia. It means kingdom of God ie the universe or this world in which we humans live ie we humans are citizens of kingdom of God. In other words we are living in the house made by God for us and therefore we must live in this house by rules of God ie by the rules of the house owner. It also means a place from wherein people carry out orders of God for serving humanity. The very same thing one will see in use of word MASJID. It means a place of worship of God ie an administrative office from wherein people carry out duties God has imposed upon them regarding serving humanity. Nothing at all to do with pooja paat of God.

    Already a sensible person will realise what we are told about the quran by foolish mullahs has nothing at all to do with the quran and islam the quran proposes. For the very same reason I take philosophers an scientists who talk rubbish about the quran as fools. Because even if muslims have misinterpreted the quran for whatever reasons at least you people should have done a good job of it because you claim to know more than author of the quran. This is question about honesty and knowledge of people and the right of a book to be interpreted correctly and honestly regardless who its author is. These like are the reason I named this thread the way I did.   

    When it comes to our knowledge of our past or present or future it is very limited as I have explained it already. Not only that but many of us do not even know things some of us humans have already discovered by now because they lag behind others in their knowledge about things. So knowledge gaps between human beings are a reality. This is why we must teach each other as well as learn from each other and discuss things with each other so that we could know things we should. However when we teach or learn or discuss things with each other we need to have right mindset, attitude and behaviour that is conducive to teaching or learning or discussing things. The wrong mindset, attitude or behaviour will only defeat the very purpose of the exercise. 

    Just to recap, human language came about gradually because first of all there were no human beings on this earth at all. In fact there was no life at all nor any living thing on this earth and if we go back even the earth was not there. God brought about things from things, so the idea that humans did not evolve from other things is utter nonsense by ignorant people we call mullahs or priesthood etc. When humans came about they originally used to make gestures and simple sounds and as time passed they gradually learned to speak and then they discovered writing and so came about reading and writing culture. With time gestures turned into sounds and words but basically humans were expressing what was in their minds ie their thoughts just like human babies do even today.

    In the beginning a human baby just makes some bodily movements and some sounds that are as simple as they can be. Gradually this baby builds on that and makes more and more complex gestures and sounds. There comes a stage when the baby starts speaking but he uses the very same sound or gesture to express so many things. This is like using the very same word for everything in a way. As baby grows he starts using more and more words for saying different things. This is the beginning of our vocabulary. This is where comes from our concept of same word for everything and so many different words for the very same thing.

    When people learned reading and writing they used pictographs not letters as we use today. By picture they conveyed many things and concepts or what they meant by certain pictures or pictographs. Later for ease of writing there came about letters and again despite speaking different languages people used the very same letters to write them, Just like today we can write any language using any set of etters eg use persian letters or hindi letters or roman letters etc. As time passed people brought about new letter shapes to help them write things down easily and with clarity just like arabic numeric symbols instead of romans when solving mathetical problems.

    Looking at arabic alphabet set, it came from various ancestral languages eg hebrew, syriac, aramaic etc etc. Letters of the set conveyed various concepts eg letter BAITH meant a tent or a household or a people who are interconnected in a place. This is why it means a place where someone lives or resides or abides. The word in its meaning is as tiny as possible and as large as possible ie it means house or dwelling of a single person as well as of all people living in a place. depending upon how it is used and for what purpose. This is why word bait can means a house as well as a village or town or city or country or kingdom or the whole world or whole of the universe. It is because it depends upon how we use the word. All because a person is a citizen of this universe as well as this world or a particular country or kingdom or a city or town or village etc etc. A citizen or dweller of the city or town or village or the tent. This is a vitally important point to understand for proper understanding the quran. It uses simple words to convey most complex ideas. So people who do not or are unable to take such points into consideration can never be able to translate or interpret the quran properly.

    For the very reason they cannot see the science in the quran. It is because when scientists discover things and someone says such and such is already told in the quran a debate starts that you are twisting words to fit the quran. If there was science already in the quran then why ancient interpreters of the quran did not predict such and such in their interpretations? These people do not realise the fact already pointed out that humans no matter what cannot see into the future so things which people cannot know till their times comes how could they predict them? The quran contains such information because it is not a book written by human beings but for people to know what is written in the quran they must first reach that stage of knowledge to realise it. This is why people need to look at the quran not as a book of scientific predictions that way but as a book of predictions in the sense that, is there anything in the quran that cannot be justified according to current state of human knowledge? One will see that text of the quran is such due to using such wide range meaning words that it will never be found contradicting known facts.

    There are many such like points one can find in the quran that clearly show this book could not have come from human beings because human minds cannot think that wide or in that much depth as is found in the quran. Real problem however is that human beings needs to be that wide and deep thinking to see these like points as I have raised so far.

    Hopefully in my next post I will try to explain why it is vitally important to keep the quran in its own category rather than mixing it with the rest of religious holy books. 

    dear Mughal   you are writing silly and you are running circles without addressing the problems.  That first statement of yours is the proof of it and all your posts on this subject of Quran are filled with common fallacies and  cogitative dissonance ., well you are not young 18 year old  fellow,  neither am I .,  so please free to fill pages and run in circles,  but your time is short  Cheesy , So I consider the best way to spend your rest of time to help Muslims.. The humans....  is  translate Quran the way you like.,  You could have done it by now if you ended that  running in circles business  without addressing the  core problem.

    anyways .. my good wishes to you
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #20 - October 07, 2020, 05:06 AM

    Why the quran must not be taken as a religious holy book like many other religious holy books? It is because the quran is the only book in the world today which claims to be sent by God. No other scripture claims itself to be sent by God. For example, let us take the christian holy scripture the new testament. It is authored by matthew, luke, mark, john etc etc. Since the new testament is not sent by God we humans too should not attribute it to God either. We should not waste our time in studying such books as books sent by God which God did not send and the books themselves do not claim they are from God. Even if we accept for argument sake that jesus was God, yet he did not give any book to his disciples as a book from jesus or for that matter ram did not give ramayna to walmiki as his book. These are books written by people about God and not books given to people by God and these books do not claim that to be the case.

    The quran claims to be a distinct book or a book that is clearly different from the rest of existing books in this very respect. By this I do not mean that the quran should be accepted as a book from God just because it says so, for that we will have to examine the quran to see if it is what it claims to be. However this point is vitally important regardless that why we should not accept any other book as a book from God which does not even claim to be sent by God. By this I am not saying these other books written by people are not important because they are but in their own way ie as they are books written by people for the people. Human works are also vitally important for us because they too are very helpful for us human beings in various ways. However human works are not necessarily free of errors therefore they need some sort of criterion to be judged by to see what is true or right in them and what is false and wrong in them. The quran is a stand alone book in that respect and can act as that criterion. How is that possible?

    It is possible because the quran is like a complete jig saw puzzle with all its pieces intact and once we assemble this criterion then we can use it as the criterion for testing all other information with it to see if it is true and right or not. This is why understanding the quran is of utmost importance for humanity to have a proper criterion or standard or yardstick or benchmark for checking and testing everything else. Again if one has read the quran, one will find it in the quran that it claims to be the criterion between the truth and falsehood or the right and wrong. Whatever humanity needs to make sense of this world, the quran has it in it. It answers all vitally important questions by humanity eg who sent us here or what for and what we need to do to fulfil the purpose of God for which he has created us. This is why the way that helps us do that is called deen of islam or way of life advised by God. As one can see I am slowly building the picture what the quran is all about. All this is going to help us when we are going to interpret the quranic text for ourselves independent of nonsense of mullahs who have no sense and are keeping others senseless and foolish as far as they can.

    Another important point people need to understand is concept of miracles ie are miracles that people believe in really possible or do they serve any purpose? Not at all. Why not? It is because God has created this universe and things in it for serving his purpose so he runs or makes it work to fulfil his purpose and not do things at random. This is why God has set up universal systems, structures, procedure and practices so the operation of each and everything is controlled by set up laws of nature as put in place by God. Laws are not made to be broken or systems will fail to work or operate. Moreover a law of nature is a law of nature only because it is permanent ie it works the same way always. This is why we see water always flows downhill not uphill. Things fall downwards and not upwards. This is why things made by God have fixed properties and characteristics or features or qualities or attributes that is why we humans can name them and use them and make predictions about them otherwise if things changed at random then we could not be able to make any sense of them nor could we make any use of them due to random changes in their natural properlties. In fact life will have been impossible has that been the case.

    People hold contradictory or controversial beliefs about things and they also claim miracles by their holy figures and that is simply impossible because then truth and falsehood could never be differentiated or become known. This is why each and everything must follow set laws of nature or it cannot exist or operate in this universe and that is the way God has made things or he has set them up. Moreover even if God himself ends up needing to break his own set up laws then how can we trust God or ourselves? We could not exist or operate in that sort of environment. I mean imagine one day a thing was a stick and the next day it turned into a snake and yet another day it turned into a monkey or one day something was wood and the next day metal and the next day a stone. One minute a thing was fire and the next minute ice etc etc. How could we make any sense of anything if that is how God made things to happen or behave? To make sense of things we needed stability not instability.

    Moreover miracles do not and cannot serve any purpose at all in even in the sense of religious people themselves. Why not? It is because if God wanted people to believe in him through miracles then why he did not show his miracles to all people so that they could believe in him? Is it not unfairness on part of God to give miracles to some and not others or to show miracles to some and not others? Not only that but if it was not possible to believe in God without miracles then where are God's miracles for people of today? Today each and every religious person is trying to prove his religion for others on basis of his religious holy book alone. This means God only needed to send a book to be believed by mankind and he did not need to do any miracles at all. All God needed to do was to explain things for mankind in his book as to what his purpose of creating all this was and what part human beings had to play in his grand scheme of things etc etc. This is why a book from God had to be a rational book for mankind to make sense of it in light of real world realities. That book in my view is the quran which has been turned into a book of nonsense by ignorant mullahs and equally foolish philosophers and scientists. Because they instead of carrying out their research on the book as they do on the universe, accepted mullahs nonsense and rejected the book on that basis. The failure of human beings to interpret the book of God rationally is the most serious crime they have committed against God and humanity for which humanity has been paying the price and this situation will continue till people come to their senses and think and do what they need to think and do to get things right and put things right as they should be as they were intended and told by God in his revealed messages for mankind.

    My next explanation is about originality of the quranic text ie Is the quran we have today original? 

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #21 - October 11, 2020, 09:07 PM

    only experts in language/history/religion are allowed to have an opinion on a compilation of  poetic verses? You write more eloquently than akay but it's still mostly nonsense.

    crumble  dear crumble you are brutal., you try to crumble every cookie and then eat them up ., I ask you why??

    anyway., what is your opinion on this..

    Quote
    ...................We exmuslims lack money as well as man power whereas muslim propagation centres are very well funded as well as have plenty of man power at their disposal. Nonetheless our message has gone through despite our lack of things.

    Quote
    I take five things very seriously for proper foundation of humanity. Freedom, secularism, democracy, human rights and separation between religion and state. Without these things as basis, humanity cannot coexist in harmony therefore cannot have peace, which is absolutely necessary for making progress towards prosperity of mankind.


    Our main problem is islamic states' constitutions because they are based on the quran and the hadith and no laws are allowed that go against them. These constitutions give just a very limited freedom for secular matters. What we need is secular democratic state constitutions wherein people of all religions and no religion are given equal freedom with limits. I think all muslim countries should follow turkey as an example rather than saudi arabia...................


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #22 - October 21, 2020, 11:42 AM

    Is the quran we have today original? Yes, the quran we have today is original. How do we know? We know because we have many copies of the quran around the world from different times and places and many people who have committed the quran to their memories. They are all very same except for copying errors or book binding errors. There is no evidence at all of any deliberately made changes in the text of the quran to pervert its actual message to serve some purpose that is opposite of the actual quranic message. However things need to be looked at in their proper context and the context is the universal realities as we observe them and the revelation of God. Without making proper sense of these two we cannot really claim we understand anything at all properly. We human beings as individuals must do our best to try to make proper sense of the universe as well as the revelation of God by figuring out all the elements or components involved as their detail. That is we need to figure out the universe as a unit and its individual things as well as the quran as a unit with meanings of its components ie its letters, words, phrases, sentences and surahs. So before going into detail of how the quran proves to be preserved properly I need to explain why we human beings need the quran to begin with.

    We cannot get anywhere with things just by looking at them and doing nothing much other than living our lives like rest of animals. It is a very sad situation that the world is full of human beings but most just live their lives like rest of animals or we force each other into living like animals. We cannot change this unless we decide to make each and every member of human family a very useful person even if it means using incentives and if that does not work then using force to put each other on the right track. Letting individuals waste their lives is our terrible loss which is costing us all dearly in form of our terrible painful suffering by hands of each other. Education is two things, 1)the understanding of the universal realities because without having this sense we are nowhere because this is our starting point. Unless we discover things for ourselves we cannot know anything about them so we cannot use them as we should, 2)the revelation of God because without having proper understanding of it we cannot have a proper moral foundation.

    Just by knowing about the universe we can only learn things about things but not their proper use. For example, we can clearly see we do not trust one another at all. Due to lack of trust we try to hide things from each other for fear of their loss. This leads us to invent newer and newer ways of saving our things from each other so that we are not robbed or dispossessed by each other or that our things are not stolen by each other. This fear can never go away till we create a human society in which we learn to trust each other fully. Just by our inventions of better and better locks and keys we cannot teach other to trust each other but if anything we are teaching each other how not to trust one another. This means we are living our lives the very wrong way and this wrong way of living is ruining us and forcing us to waste our lives on wrong kind of education. Due to this way of life we are always watching our own backs fearing that any one of us can back stab us at any time. This is where our so far adopted education system has led us. We have invented best medicines but people are always dying after terrible painful suffering worldwide because we have adopted a way of living our lives whereby all this does not bother us because we are keeping our things locked away out of reach of many. This being the case, can any of us claim to be a civilised person or a civilised human society? No, not at all. This clearly shows how we try our best to pretend we are civilised good people when reality of the human world we have created or brought about is staring us in the face and calling us liars.   

    All this because we have ignored the right way of living our lives in this world. That right way of life is told only and only by our creator in his message which he gave us to be proper human beings so that then we could bring about a human world that reflects life of paradise in this world. Let us ask ourselves some questions to help us understand why we humans need guidance of God to live in this world properly. If we read the quran, we are repeatedly told all things belong to God. This means nothing at all belongs to anyone else. If nothing belongs to anyone else then who has any right to have anything at all? None. In fact we human beings ourselves are made by God therefore we ourselves do not own ourselves let alone anything else in this world. This being the case who can tell us who brought us about and why or why we have what we have? Only and only our creator. This is why learning the message of our creator is of utmost important for us so that we get the full picture as to what is going on and where do we fit in all this. God has given us his message to tell us all what is vitally important for us to know to have a great life in this universe as a proper human community in his kingdom. Moreover he has given us the whole of universe to make best use of all that he has given us in there.

    We have heard people saying to each other don't play God. The quran tells people that God has created people to play God ie deconstruct what God has made and reconstruct it the way it benefits humanity the best. This is why we use God provided things as raw materials to make things from that which we find useful for ourselves. Humans do play God the wrong way as well ie they try to control each other for their personal gains at each other's expense and that is where playing God is not allowed by God. This is why it is called SHIRK or polytheism. It is not that people actually become Gods but that they are not allowed to make decisions against God's decisions and act upon them and thereby cause problems for each other. It is because you can only live by your own way of life or by way of life that God has advised for humanity. Living by way of life advised by God is about using God provided things the way God has advised and not misusing them or mismanaging them. By using God provided things God's way people can add value to things whereby they appreciate things in their value or worth in their own eyes as well as fulfil the purpose of God but by misusing them they devalues God provided things in the eyes of humanity as well as God. So one can see how vitally important it is for humanity to live by way of life advised by God and not to deliberately live by way of life one chooses for oneself or one will end up causing all sorts of troubles, not only for others but for oneself as well because what goes round comes round. This is why if anyone claims to be a civilised person or society one has to be judged by this criterion alone. Guidance of God must be appreciated because God made the world and he knows each and everything thing about it in all its possible detail so who can be better than God in advising as to how people can fit in with this world the best. This is why the quran challenges mankind to bring a better book than the quran if you are in any doubt about it ie bring a book which tells you a better way of life than the one told by the quran. People don't yet know what kind of way of life the quran teaches then how can they bring a better one? The first thing one needs to know about something is, what it is and only then there is chance of bringing something better. So if the quran is not even understood properly by humanity so far then how can it bring anything like it till it does? We have invented so many kinds of dangerous weapons to harm or destroy each other yet we have not used our brains to make proper sense of what is of utmost importance, that is how clever we are as a specie.

    Anyway before I explain the issue of originality of the quran we need to become aware of some points which are often neglected or not given attention they deserve and as a result we end up confusing ourselves instead of understanding the issues or points. When we talk about God, people and rest of things, it is vitally important for a person to realise that each and every existing being has to play its own part or role including God in this grand scheme of things. Likewise when it comes to revelation of God, God plays his role and people play their roles so the end result is what we have. We know God is free of making errors or mistakes but human beings are human beings so they are not necessarily free of making human error in their thoughts or actions.

    From God's point of view the quran can never have any errors at all because God does not make mistakes but from human beings' points of views the quran cannot be necessarily error free because humans are prone to making human errors. The proof is simple, ask a person who knows the quran by heart to read it and listen to it and soon you will come to know that the person does get stuck here and there. However when one makes a mistake if there is another person there as well who has also committed the quran to his memory then he will correct him. Likewise whenever we write down things we do end up making mistakes but when we reread things or ask someone else to read what we have written the mistakes we make are caught and if need be they are corrected. So just as people make errors so people can detect those errors and not only detect them but if they so choose they can also correct them. All correctable errors therefore can be ignored as errors or mistakes. This is why as far as practicality or pragmatism is concerned there are no errors in the quran at all because they can be detected and corrected if humanity so decides. When God says he will preserve the quran this is what it means because it cannot be any other way. No human is free of possibility of making human errors because our whole life is based upon idea of learning by trial and error method. Just bring to your mind when you were just a baby or watch any other baby growing and soon you will come to know how many mistakes we humans make and repeatedly till we become learned and wise. So as we grow we do overcome a lot of mistakes or in other words we grow out of those mistakes.

    Let us now look at the quranic copies that we have around the world in a bit of detail to see how the existing copies of the quran prove to us human beings that the quran we have today is original and all claims by ignorant people that the quran has been changed are false.

    Regardless let us first look at the way the quran was written down in ancient format of writing. If one gathers ancient copies of the quran that still exist today around the world, one will see in them a special way of writing the quranic text. For example, in those copies we will see that they do not have short or very long vowel marks as well as various other marks. Such as are called tashdeed, madda, jazm, damma, kasra or fatha etc etc in arabic. They also have no dots in them to distinguish some alike shaped letters from each other. One can clearly see that BAA, TAA, SAA etc use exactly the same shape of a letter. Likewise JEEM, HAA and KHAA use the very same letter shape, DAAL and ZAAL, RAA and ZAA, SEEN and SHEEN, SWAAD and DWAAD, TWAA and ZWAA, AIN and GHAIN, FAA and QAAF are written using the very same shape. This is most important point to note. The question one has to ask oneself is, is it possible for any person at all to read such a text that is written down this way unless one already knows the actual message in this kind of text format? My answer is, no, it cannot be read no matter how hard one tries unless one is already very much familiar with the message in the text.

    What does this prove beyond a shadow of doubt? It proves the quran we have today in its written form has come from the original source ie directly from the final messenger of God. Not only that it also proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the quran we have today was transmitted by the final messenger of God in two completely independent ways or channels. a) through memory ie people had committed the quran to their memories directly from the final messenger of God and b)through writing and again directly from the final messenger of God.

    The vitally important points in this regard for people to understand are:-

    The way the quran was written down could not be read unless the quranic text was fully memorised by people. If anyone thinks it could be read then go ahead and try it yourself in your very own mother tongue. Ask someone to write something down for you in that format without telling you what one is writing and then you try and read it yourself. You will soon find out that you cannot make any head or tail of such a text in its written format.

    But how does this prove the quran we have today is original? It is because the quranic text we find in the existing copies of the quran proves, it could not have been written down by people from their own memories alone as individuals. Not only that but one can try and do so oneself and one will fail badly even today. So the claim by muslims that they can recreate the quranic text merely from their memories if all written copied of the quran somehow became destroyed is false. Why? Because there are some particular problems which people face when someone dictates the quranic text from one's memory for others to write it down. The question is what are those problems?

    Those problems are different ways of writing a particular piece of quranic information. For example, if I tell a group of people in a place to write a number eg three. Will the person write 3 as a digit or as a word three? You will agree that some could write 3 as a digit and others could write three as a word. If the quran was copied the same way from dictation by someone from one's memory then people could write it down in different ways. Likewise if I told a person to write ALAF then one could end up writing letter alaf or word alaf or number one because alaf also has an alphanumerical value, which is one or1. In the quran we have many surahs which contain some letters in their beginnings eg surah 2 al baqarah starts with ALAF, LAAM and MEEM letters. So if a group of people was told to write down alaf, laam, meem then what do you think people will write down? Letters alaf, laam and meem or words alaf laam meem? Then in arabic language we have some words that can be written with different spellings or letters eg word SIRAAT can be written either by using letter SEEN or SWAAD. So if a group of people were told to write word SIRAAT what do you think people will write down? SIRAAT with letter SEEN or siraat with letter SWAAD? The same is true in case of word BASTATUN ie it too can be written using either seen or swad. You will agree that some could write down word siraat with seen and others with swaad. It is just as we write english word REALISE with letter S or Z ie REALIZE. Not only this but there are borrowed words in each and every human language from other languages which can be written down different ways eg see in english in how many different ways people spell word MUHAMMAD or QURAAN ie they write it as mohammed or mohamed and so on and so forth or QURAN or KORAN etc etc.

    Can you therefore see the problems when people have to read a text from an awkward way of writing without having it in their memories? Likewise can you see the problems if a group of people is told to write some information down from their memories? This will create a lot of variations or differences between people whether they memorise some information or write it down unless they memorised it and wrote it down exactly the same way right from the very beginning or original source. This is how the quran proves to be preserved perfectly beyond a shadow of doubt.

    Now the big question, in the existing copies of quran worldwide which are from different times, do we find any such fatal differences at all? The answer is no, none at all. They are all exactly the same anyone can check them any where in the world. This is impossible to happen unless all copies of the quran were copied from the copies exactly the same way. This explanation proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the quran we have today is exactly the same. This claim can also be verified by looking at the quranic text in written form and reading it out from one's memory. Despite coming down to us in two completely independent ways or channels the over all quranic information remains exactly the same. A clear proof that the quran we have today has been preserved perfectly except for some copying errors by the copiers of the quran or book binding errors.

    This proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the claims made by ignorant muslims and nonmuslinms about the changed quran are utterly false. Muslims have been spreading false information about the quran in order to defend confusing reports in the hadith books and nonmuslims have been using the same reports to discredit the final messenger of God, the quran and deen of islam etc.

    Before I move onto errors in the copies of the quran around the world, it should be born in minds of people that God works with his creatures in the world he has created. This is why when God plays his part in wider scheme of things he makes no mistakes but his human creatures have no immunity against making unintentional mistakes called human errors. Even though God revealed his message to his final messenger in the form of the quran and his messenger preserved it perfectly in form of a memorised information as well as in form of a written information and passed it on through his supporters generation after generation his supporters did make copying errors during this transmission process. However as it is possible for human beings to make unintentional errors so it is possible for them to detect those errors and if they choose they can correct them as well therefore actual message of God does not suffer in such a way that it could be invalidated or discredited.

    It is a fact that the quranic copies that still exist worldwide contain scribal, printing and book binding etc etc errors. Such copies always existed and they are nothing new but it is time that I explained what are the features or characteristics or properties of these kinds of errors or why or how they occurred, remained and continued increasing till better ways came about to minimise such errors. They will become eliminated once muslims become an ummah again. 

    When a person is copying a text from another copy of a written text it is possible that a person puts extra letters or words or phrases in the text of the copy one is making or preparing. One can also omit letters or words or phrases and even sentences or paragraphs or pages by looking at one copy and turning the pages of the other copy from which one is copying. One may end up copying a letter or word or sentence or even a page more than once. Likewise when one is binding pages of a written text in form of a book, one may end up missing some pages or putting extra pages or one may end up putting the pages in wrong order or upside down. It is because human mind does not remain fully attentive at all times when one is doing something. This is how human errors occur or take place and are found in almost each and every copy of the quran. In the printed copies printing related errors occur eg misprints are found in copies.

    The good thing is such error are always detected by people who read the quran from those copies and inform the publishers or printers or scribes of the copies. These errors are detectable because of their fixed characteristics. Such errors are also correctable because they are clearly obvious. It is because if any letters are added to words or are omitted from the words then words cannot be read correctly as words. Likewise additions and omissions or disordering of words in sentences makes sentences senseless and if any pages are missed then continuity of the text becomes disturbed. So just as preventing human errors is not possible for human beings so human beings are good at detecting human errors. It is then up to people to correct these correctable errors or not to bother but make later copies better. This is what printers and publishers do ie they correct errors made in earlier copies of the books in later copies they produce of the same text.

    No doubt the quran claims that the quran will remain intact but since God does things through things so where people are involved in program of God things will happen the way they should. God does not make mistakes through absent mindedness or lack of attention but people do therefore when it comes to people they can make mistakes in memorising or copying the quran but they can also detect and correct the mistakes they may make in this regard. All because only God is God and humans can only be humans at their best. Humans are not supernatural beings otherwise such errors by human beings will not have taken place at all. This is how the quran has been kept original by God and his people. These like things also expose such people who claim supernatural powers amongst religious folk and foolish people flock around them looking for all kinds of miraculous or magical help from them which they cannot do. If religious holy men or for that matter women had any supernatural powers will they not make sure there are no any copying errors in their holy books? What else could be more important for them than doing this? Likewise if holy people could move about freely between the heaven and the earth or controlled any supernatural hidden beings, could they not tell us how the world looked like from up there very long ago as scientist have discovered it today? Such claims are clearly false and only foolish people accept nonsense and take it seriously. Moreover if human beings had any superpowers they will have interpreted the book from God correctly right from the very beginning and there will not be any need for its reinterpretations all the time as humanity learns more and more sense. All this clearly shows people have been raising false claims always and that we need to become sensible enough to become aware of them and disregard them instead of being fooled by them.

    Any errors in any copy are always correctable because copies with errors can be compared with each other as all copies cannot necessarily have exactly the same errors. Moreover later copies can be compared with the earlier ones if need be or vice versa. Not only that but written copies can be tested against memorised version and the memorised version can be tested against the written version. However such exercises should be carried out every now and then by people at ummah level and not at individual level. At individual level people should inform the authorities responsible for publishing of the quranic text to keep the scribal or printing errors or book binding errors to a bare minimum. Unintentional human errors in the copies of the quran make no difference to validity of the quranic text because the original message of the quran over all remains intact despite such kind of errors.

    There is no proof at all in the existing copies of the quran around the world for any deliberate changes in the quranic message. All errors found in the existing copies of the quran are unintentional and not deliberate. Unintentional errors occur from human beings naturally but to make deliberate changes one has to have an agenda to make purposeful changes in a piece of information to suit one's agenda so that the agenda or purpose of the existing information could be diverted from what it is, to what serves the agenda of the person who makes deliberate changes to the information. There is no sign of such fatal changes in any existing copy of the quran around the world. A clear proof the quran has been preserved perfectly for all practical purposes. Human errors found in the copies do not invalidate the originality of the quran as we have it.

    Why errors occurred in the quranic text has been explained but how they kept increasing remains to be explained. As explained already how errors occurred in the quranic text some people have used these errors and corrections to claim variant readings of the quran which are taken by ignorant muslims and nonmuslims alike as different versions of the quran. In fact so called muslims go a step further and claim God has revealed the quran in different versions. The problem with such claims is, there is no any such proof in the quran itself that God has revealed the quran in different versions. No sensible person can expect that God will reveal a number of versions of the quran yet he will fail to mention them in the quran. Moreover what sensible purpose could those versions serve which the version we have could not? Then we are told these version could be any number of versions eg seven or ten or thirty or more. What it means is that we have only one version with us all the rest are lost. So we have lost six parts if there were seven versions or twenty-nine parts if there were thirty versions etc etc. All this means there were never any different versions of the quran to begin with. How could God ignore mentioning his revealed versions if he did reveal them? Also why God needed to reveal different or multiple versions? By looking at information which is categorised as different versions of the quran one can understand the mistake people made in their understanding of things in this regard. People who talk about different readings or different versions of the quran show they had no idea about origin and development of human language or how human errors occur in a message or how people come together and fall apart and how all this affects what kinds of changes in things. Had they understood such things clearly then they could not have called copies of the quran with errors as different versions of the quran.

    Let us now try and understand some basic things in this regard. People who come together from different backgrounds or areas clearly show the problems when they try to talk to each other. For example, try and see how an arab speaks in english or try and and see how a punjabi person speaks english. It shows that people who are used to speaking their own mother tongue if they are not brought up speaking a different language then this could cause them problems when they try to speak a different language after their growing up. It takes a lot of conscious practice to change habits when such a need arises because mind and body parts become programmed. For example, if we have developed some bad habits during growing up they stay with us for lifetime. If anything needs changing it becomes a big problem. We can develop bad habits for driving the car and if we are forced to change them then we have to consciously work at them till we have replaced them. The same is the case with human languages. Ask an indian punjabi person to say word TABLE, he will say TEVAL. He will find it easier to say WAA instead of BAA. ask him to say ZERO, he will say JEERO. Likewise if we ask an arab to say pakistan, he will say bakistan. If we ask an englishman to say TEE as it is in arabic, he will say tea because there is no arabic tee sound in english language. The same is true about people who claim to speak the same language ie they have their own local meanings for certain words. KOWAT

    So people need to become aware of the fact that just because we give a name to a language and its people it does not mean all speakers of that same language speak exactly the same language exactly the same way or with exactly the same understanding or meanings etc etc. There occur many variations about it between the people of different areas. If we talk about letters or alphabet set of arabic, we will see people wrote letters in different ways eg different arabs wrote letter FAA differently ie some placed a dot above it and others below it. Likewise different people pronounced arabic letters differently eg ask an egyptian to say letter JEEM, he will say it GEEM. J as in word JUG=G as in word JUG to an egyptian muslim. Likewise for some iraqis or kuwaitis muslims letter QAAF sounds like letter GAAF. In urdu we have both sounds. So these linguistic differences are also found in the quranic copies. Why? Because there was a time when muslims were a single community during lifetime of the final messenger of God but then after him they fell apart into rival groups so their future generations did things according to their own smaller communities as they saw fit. This is why there occurred differences between copies of the quran. These differences increased with time as people divided more and more into smaller and smaller groups. This is why these differences which are of minor nature cannot become eliminated till muslims see the need for a central authority between them for this purpose or reunite as an ummah. Now if on this basis one claims different readings or different versions of the quran then they are as many as many copies of the quran one can find. But as I already explained these sort of errors do not invalidate the quran because if a knowledgable muslim sits down and tries to correct all these error one can. Likewise if muslims decided to have a central authority for this task that too can carry out such a work. It is because every now and again some individuals have been writing books which contain all the needed information as to how or when certain errors occurred or why. This is why the quran remains intact for all practical purposes.

    I hope to explain, why islam is away of life and not a religion.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #23 - October 21, 2020, 11:50 AM

    Is the quran we have today original? Yes, the quran we have today is original. How do we know? We know because we have many copies of the quran around the world from different times and places and many people who have committed the quran to their memories. They are all very same except for copying errors or book binding errors. There is no evidence at all of any deliberately made changes in the text of the quran to pervert its actual message to serve some purpose that is opposite of the actual quranic message. However things need to be looked at in their proper context and the context is the universal realities as we observe them and the revelation of God.
    Without making proper sense of these two we cannot really claim we understand anything at all properly. We human beings as individuals must do our best to try to make proper sense of the universe as well as the revelation of God by figuring out all the elements or components involved as their detail. That is we need to figure out the universe as a unit and its individual things as well as the quran as a unit with meanings of its components ie its letters, words, phrases, sentences and surahs. So before going into detail of how the quran proves to be preserved properly I need to explain why we human beings need the quran to begin with.

    We cannot get anywhere with things just by looking at them and doing nothing much other than living our lives like rest of animals. It is a very sad situation that the world is full of human beings but most just live their lives like rest of animals or we force each other into living like animals. We cannot change this unless we decide to make each and every member of human family a very useful person even if it means using incentives and if that does not work then using force to put each other on the right track. Letting individuals waste their lives is our terrible loss which is costing us all dearly in form of our terrible painful suffering by hands of each other. Education is two things, 1)the understanding of the universal realities because without having this sense we are nowhere because this is our starting point. Unless we discover things for ourselves we cannot know anything about them so we cannot use them as we should, 2)the revelation of God because without having proper understanding of it we cannot have a proper moral foundation.

    Just by knowing about the universe we can only learn things about things but not their proper use. For example, we can clearly see we do not trust one another at all. Due to lack of trust we try to hide things from each other for fear of their loss. This leads us to invent newer and newer ways of saving our things from each other so that we are not robbed or dispossessed by each other or that our things are not stolen by each other. This fear can never go away till we create a human society in which we learn to trust each other fully. Just by our inventions of better and better locks and keys we cannot teach other to trust each other but if anything we are teaching each other how not to trust one another. This means we are living our lives the very wrong way and this wrong way of living is ruining us and forcing us to waste our lives on wrong kind of education. Due to this way of life we are always watching our own backs fearing that any one of us can back stab us at any time. This is where our so far adopted education system has led us. We have invented best medicines but people are always dying after terrible painful suffering worldwide because we have adopted a way of living our lives whereby all this does not bother us because we are keeping our things locked away out of reach of many. This being the case, can any of us claim to be a civilised person or a civilised human society? No, not at all. This clearly shows how we try our best to pretend we are civilised good people when reality of the human world we have created or brought about is staring us in the face and calling us liars.   

    All this because we have ignored the right way of living our lives in this world. That right way of life is told only and only by our creator in his message which he gave us to be proper human beings so that then we could bring about a human world that reflects life of paradise in this world. Let us ask ourselves some questions to help us understand why we humans need guidance of God to live in this world properly. If we read the quran, we are repeatedly told all things belong to God. This means nothing at all belongs to anyone else. If nothing belongs to anyone else then who has any right to have anything at all? None. In fact we human beings ourselves are made by God therefore we ourselves do not own ourselves let alone anything else in this world. This being the case who can tell us who brought us about and why or why we have what we have? Only and only our creator. This is why learning the message of our creator is of utmost important for us so that we get the full picture as to what is going on and where do we fit in all this. God has given us his message to tell us all what is vitally important for us to know to have a great life in this universe as a proper human community in his kingdom. Moreover he has given us the whole of universe to make best use of all that he has given us in there.

    We have heard people saying to each other don't play God. The quran tells people that God has created people to play God ie deconstruct what God has made and reconstruct it the way it benefits humanity the best. This is why we use God provided things as raw materials to make things from that which we find useful for ourselves. Humans do paly God the wrong way as well ie they try to control each other for their personal gains at each other's expense and that is where playing God is not allowed by God. This is why it is called SHIRK or polytheism. It is not that people actually become Gods but that they are not allowed to make decisions against God's decisions and act upon them and thereby cause problems for each other. It is because you can only live by your own way or by way of life that God has advised for humanity. Living by way of life advised by God is about using God provided things the way God has advised and not misusing them or mismanaging them. By using God provided things God's way people can add value to things whereby they appreciate things in their value or worth in their own eyes as well as fulfil the purpose of God but by misusing them they devalues God provided things in the eyes of humanity as well as God. So one can see how vitally important it is for humanity to live by way of life advised by God and not to deliberately live by way of life one chooses for oneself or one will end up causing all sorts of troubles, not only for others but for oneself as well because what goes round comes round. This is why if anyone claims to be a civilised person or society one has to be judged by this criterion alone. Guidance of God must be appreciated because God made the world and he knows each and everything thing about it in all its possible detail so who can be better than God in advising as to how people can fit in with this world the best. This is why the quran challenges mankind to bring a better book than the quran if you are in any doubt about it ie bring a book which tells you a better way of life than the one told by the quran. People don't yet know what kind of way of life the quran teaches then how can they bring a better one? The first thing one needs to know about something is, what it is and only then there is chance of bringing something better. So if the quran is not even understood properly by humanity so far then how can it bring anything like it till it does? We have invented so many kinds of dangerous weapons to harm or destroy each other yet we have not used our brains to make proper sense of what is of utmost importance, that is how clever we are as a species.

    Anyway before I explain the issue of originality of the quran we need to become aware of some points which are often neglected or not given attention they deserve and as a result we end up confusing ourselves instead of understanding the issues or points. When we talk about God, people and rest of things, it is vitally important for a person to realise that each and every existing being has to play its own part or role including God in this grand scheme of things. Likewise when it comes to revelation of God, God plays his role and people play their roles so the end result is what we have. We know God is free of making errors or mistakes but human beings are human beings so they are not necessarily free of making human error in their thoughts or actions.

    From God's point of view the quran can never have any errors at all because God does not make mistakes but from human beings' points of views the quran cannot be necessarily error free because humans are prone to making human errors. The proof is simple, ask a person who knows the quran by heart to read it and listen to it and soon you will come to know that the person does get stuck here and there. However when one makes a mistake if there is another person there as well who has also committed the quran to his memory then he will correct him. Likewise whenever we write down things we do end up making mistakes but when we reread things or ask someone else to read what we have written the mistakes we make are caught and if need be they are corrected. So just as people make errors so people can detect those errors and not only detect them but if they so choose they can also correct them. All correctable errors therefore can be ignored as errors or mistakes. This is why as far as practicality pragmatism is concerned there are no errors in the quran at all because they can be detected and corrected if humanity so decides. When God says he will preserve the quran this is what it means because it cannot be any other way. No human is free of human errors because our whole life is based upon idea of learning by trial and error method. Just bring to your mind when you were just a baby or watch any other baby growing and soon you will come to know how many mistakes we humans make and repeatedly. However as we grow we do overcome a lot of mistakes or in other words we grow out of those mistakes.

    Let us now look at the quranic copies that we have around the world in a bit of detail to see how the existing copies of the quran prove to us human beings that the quran we have today is original and all claims by ignorant people that the quran has been changed are false.

    Regardless let us first look at the way the quran was written down in ancient format of writing. If one gathers ancient copies of the quran that still exist today around the world, one will see in them a special way of writing the quranic text. For example, in those copies we will see that they do not have short or very long vowel marks as well as various other marks. Such as are called tashdeed, madda, jazm, damma, kasra or fatha etc etc in arabic. They also have no dots in them to distinguish some alike shaped letters from each other. One can clearly see that BAA, TAA, SAA etc use exactly the same shape of a letter. Likewise JEEM, HAA and KHAA use the very same letter shape, DAAL and ZAAL, RAA and ZAA, SEEN and SHEEN, SWAAD and DWAAD, TWAA and ZWAA, AIN and GHAIN, FAA and QAAF are written using the very same shape. This is most important point to note. The question one has to ask oneself is, is it possible for any person at all to read such a text that is written down this way unless one already knows the actual message in this kind of text format? My answer is, no, it cannot be read no matter how hard one tries unless one is already familiar with the message in the text.

    What does this prove beyond a shadow of doubt? It proves the quran we have today in its written form has come from the original source ie directly from the final messenger of God. Not only that it also proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the quran we have today was transmitted by the final messenger of God in two completely independent ways or channels. a) through memory ie people had committed the quran to their memories directly from the final messenger of God and b)through writing and again directly from the final messenger of God.

    The vitally important points in this regard for people to understand are:-

    The way the quran was written down could not be read unless the quranic text was fully memorised by people. If anyone thinks it could be read then go ahead and try it yourself in your very own mother tongue. Ask someone to write something down for you in that format without telling you what one is writing and then you try and read it yourself. You will soon find out that you cannot make any head or tail of such a text in its written format.

    But how does this prove the quran we have today is original? It is because the quranic text we find in the existing copies of the quran proves, it could not have been written down by people from their own memories alone as individuals. Not only that but one can try and do so oneself and one will fail badly even today. So the claim by muslims that they can recreate the quranic text merely from their memories if all written copied of the quran somehow became destroyed is false. Why? Because there are some particular problems which people face when someone dictates the quranic text from one's memory for others to write it down. The question is what are those problems?

    Those problems are different ways of writing a particular piece of quranic information. For example, if I tell a group of people in a place to write a number eg three. Will the person write 3 as a digit or as a word? You will agree that some could write 3 as a digit and others could write three as a word. If the quran was copied the same way from dictation by someone from one's memory then people could write it down in different ways. Likewise if I told a person to write ALAF then one could end up writing letter alaf or word alaf or number one because alaf also has an alphanumerical value, which is one or1. In the quran we have many surahs which contain some letters in their beginnings eg surah 2 al baqarah starts with ALAF, LAAM and MEEM letters. So if a group of people was told to write down alaf, laam, meem then what do you think people will write down? Letters alaf, laam and meem or words alaf laam meem? Then in arabic language we have some words that can be written with different spellings or letters eg word SIRAAT can be written either by using letter SEEN or SWAAD. So if a group of people were told to write word SIRAAT what do you think people will write down? SIRAAT with letter SEEN or siraat with letter SWAAD? The same is true in case or word BASTATUN ie it too can be written using either seen or swad. You will agree that some could write down word siraat with seen and others with swaad. It is just as we write english word REALISE with letter S or Z ie REALIZE. Not only this but there are borrowed words in each and every human language from other languages which can be written down different ways eg see in english in how many different ways people spell word MUHAMMAD or QURAAN ie they write it as mohammed or mohamed and so on and so forth or QURAN or KORAN etc etc.

    Can you therefore see the problems when people have to read a text from an awkward way of writing without having it in their memories? Likewise can you see the problems if a group of people is told to write some information down from their memories? This will create a lot of variations or differences between people whether they memorise some information or write it down unless they memorised it and wrote it down exactly the same way right from the very beginning or original source. This is how the quran proves to be preserved perfectly.

    Now the big question, in the existing copies of quran worldwide which are from different times, do we find any such fatal differences at all? The answer is no, none at all. They are all exactly the same anyone can check them any where. This is impossible to happen unless all copies of the quran were copied from the copies exactly the same way. This explanation proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the quran we have today is exactly the same. This claim can also be verified by looking at the quranic text in written form and reading it out from one's memory. Despite coming down to us in two completely independent ways or channels the over all quranic information remains exactly the same. A clear proof that the quran we have today has been preserved perfectly except for some copying errors by the copiers of the quran.

    This proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the claims made by ignorant muslims and nonmuslinms about the changed quran are utterly false. Muslims have been spreading false information about the quran in order to defend confusing reports in the hadith books and nonmuslims have been using the same reports to discredit the final messenger of God, the quran and deen of islam.

    Before I move onto errors in the copies of the quran around the world, it should be born in minds of people that God works with his creatures in the world he has created. This is why when God plays his part in wider scheme of things he makes no mistakes but his human creatures have no immunity against making unintentional mistakes called human errors. Even though God revealed his message to his final messenger in the form of the quran and his messenger preserved it perfectly in form of a memorised information as well as in form of a written information and passed it on through his supporters generation after generation his supporters did make copying errors during this transmission process. However as it is possible for human beings to make unintentional errors so it is possible for them to detect those errors and if they chose they can correct them as well therefore actual message of God does not suffer in such a way that it could be invalidated or discredited.

    It is a fact that the quranic copies that still exist worldwide contain scribal, printing and book binding etc etc errors. Such copies always existed and they are nothing new but it is time that I explained what are the features or characteristics or properties of these kinds of errors or why or how they occurred, remained and continued increasing.

    When a person is copying a text from another copy of a written text it is possible that a person puts extra letters or words or phrases in the text of the copy one is making or preparing. One can also omit letters or words or phrases and even sentences or paragraphs or pages by looking at one copy and turning the pages of the other copy from which one is copying. One may end up copying a letter or word or sentence or even a page more than once. Likewise when one is binding pages of a written text in form of a book, one may end up missing some pages or putting extra pages or one may end up putting the pages in wrong order or upside down. It is because human mind does not remain fully attentive at all times when one is doing something. This is how human errors occur or take place and are found in almost each and every copy of the quran. In the printed copies printing related errors occur eg misprints are found in copies.

    The good thing is such error are always detected by people who read the quran from those copies and inform the publishers or printers or scribes of the copies. These errors are detectable because of their fixed characteristics. Such errors are also correctable because they are clearly obvious. It is because if any letters are added to words or are omitted from the words then words cannot be read correctly as words. Likewise additions and omissions or disordering of words in sentences makes sentences senseless and if any pages are missed then continuity of the text becomes disturbed. So just as preventing human errors is not possible for human beings so human beings are good at detecting human errors. It is then up to people to correct these correctable errors or not to bother but make later copies better. This is what printers and publishers do ie they correct errors made in earlier copies of the books in later copies they produce of the same text.

    No doubt the quran claims that the quran will remain intact but since God does things through things so where people are involved in program of God things will happen the way they should. God does not make mistakes through absent mindedness but people do therefore when it comes to people they can make mistakes in memorising or copying the quran but they can also detect and correct the mistakes they may make in this regard. All because only God is God and humans can only be humans. Humans are not supernatural beings otherwise such errors by human beings will not have taken place at all. This is how the quran has been kept original by God and his people. These like things also expose such people who claim supernatural powers amongst religious folk and foolish people flock around them looking for all kinds of miraculous or magical help from them which they cannot do. If religious holy men or for that matter women had any supernatural powers will they not make sure there are no any copying errors in their holy books? What else could be more important for them than doing this? Likewise if holy people could move about freely between the heaven and the earth or controlled any supernatural beings, could they not tell us how the world looked like from up there very long ago as scientist have discovered it today? Such claims are clearly false and only foolish people accept nonsense and take it seriously. Moreover if human beings had any superpowers they will have interpreted the book from God correctly right from the very beginning and there will not be any need for its reinterpretations all the time as humanity learns more and more sense. All this clearly shows people have been raising false claims always and that we need to become sensible enough to become aware of them and disregard them instead of being fooled by them.

    Any errors in any copy are always correctable because copies with errors can be compared with each other as all copies cannot necessarily have exactly the same errors. Moreover later copies can be compared with the earlier ones if need be. Not only that but written copies can be tested against memorised version and the memorised version can be tested against the written version. However such exercises should be carried out every now and then by people at ummah level and not at individual level. At individual level people should inform the authorities responsible for publishing of the quranic text to keep the scribal or printing errors or book binding errors to a bare minimum. Unintentional human errors in the copies of the quran make no difference to validity of the quranic text because the original message of the quran over all remains intact despite such kind of errors.

    There is no proof at all in the existing copies of the quran around the world for any deliberate changes in the quranic message. All errors found in the existing copies of the quran are unintentional and not deliberate. Unintentional errors occur from human beings naturally but to make deliberate changes one has to have an agenda to make purposeful changes in a piece of information to suit one's agenda so that the agenda or purpose of the existing information could be diverted from what it is, to what serves the agenda of the person who makes deliberate changes to the information. There is no sign of such fatal changes in any existing copy of the quran around the world. A clear proof the quran has been preserved perfectly for all practical purposes. Human errors found in the copies do not invalidate the originality of the quran as we have it.

    Why errors occurred in the quranic text has been explained but how they kept increasing remains to be explained.

    dear Ameer.. dear Mughal.... sorry to say this .. BUT TRUTH TO BE TOLD...

    you have not done your home work on the history and origins of Quran..  you have not done your home work on Quranic manuscripts from Sana or from other areas..  That is far more bigger subject and needs great analytical/rational skills  than writing wall of text .. BUT I WILL READ YOUR POSTS

    please read some posts

    Quote


    DAMN IN FACT YOU SHOULD READ WHOLE FOLDER  all 328 pages https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.0

    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #24 - October 24, 2020, 12:26 AM

    Another point for people to understand clearly is, islam is a deen, not a mazhab. Why? Because the quran calls the way of life advised by God for humanity to live by DEEN AL ISLAAM. Why the quranic way of life is called deen of islam? Because it is the only way of life that if understood properly and followed faithfully by humanity, it will lead humanity to unity, peace , progress and prosperity in here as well as in hereafter. In other words humanity can have a blissful, dignified and secure existence in here as well as hereafter if it understands the quran properly and lives by it faithfully. The quran rejects idea of any personal God, it is because if there is a God then that God is God of each and every person or thing.

    The question is what is deen and what is mazhab? Deen is a way of life revealed by God for mankind to live by in order to have a great life in this world as well as in hereafter. Mazhab is what human being have learned so far all by themselves regarding God and his creation. It is not based upon revelations of God but ideas of people themselves due to their own life experiences and interactions within their social environements. In other words it should be very clear for everyone that it was mazhab that came about long before God revealed deen of islam for humanity to live by. In other words mazhab was already there long before human beings were sent message by God for their guidance. The reason is, God evolved human beings from already existing life forms or tree of life. First there was only the earth ie lifeless or non-living matter. Then there came about life form in a most simple form which evolved into many most complex living things and from those living things evolved humanity. Originally human beings learned thing from other existing things but as they got better and better brains they got better and better in their thinking and doing things. It is because God created things from very, very simple things to very, very complex things and he programmed them accordingly so that they could serve his purpose of creating them.

    Why God started revealing his messages to people much later in their lives rather than as the very first thing? It is because God had to wait till some people at least had learned enough sense to understand message of God at least to some degree. It is a case similar to birth of a new baby. A baby has to grow to a stage before he could be able to understand others clearly. So people who claim adam was first human being are totally wrong. No such statement exists in the quran. Word adam is used in the quran for origin and development of humanity as a species or it is used about adam the very first messenger of God to his people. People who deny evolution theory are ignorant to put it simply. Evolution theory does nothing but explains how God brought about things from things and that is what the quran says in its verses. God brought to life living things from non-living things and he changes living things back to non-living things ie non-living matter by way of employing various processes. God brought about all living things from the non-living earth. So even if man comes from monkeys there is nothing wrong with it. Human dignity is not in what man is created from but how well he understands and follows guidance of God in order to fulfil purpose of God for creating him. God has created his creation the way we observe and understand it and not any other way. One has to understand clearly that there are only two acts of God whereby he expressed himself and they are his creation and his revelation. Another point to note is that if God could create his creation then he could also reveal his messages to mankind for their guidance by employing a particular process or mechanism. The idea that God could not interact with his creatures is nothing but nonsense. Equally absurd is the idea that since God can interact with his creatures, he can do whatever he likes and since he can do whatever he likes therefore he has done all kinds of things which people attribute to him. This is nonsense because God had a purpose in his mind for creating things so he is bound by his purpose not to deviate from it therefore he cannot act against his own decision ever. This is why all senseless attributions to God by religious people are nothing but absurdities and people accept them due to lack of proper knowledge of things.

    God has programmed all things and human beings are programmed least as compared to other living things this is why they need external guidance whereas other things simply perform their functions as assigned for them by God. Human beings are created to program themselves to a much greater degree than rest of living things. People can judge things but they need a criterion to do so as well as information about the case. Both of these need to be learned by human beings. There is no way human beings could know what is really true or false or what is really right or wrong, if they could they could not differ with each other regarding these. For example, if we look at people, we can see they believe and do different things. What one group believes to be true, another group believes it to be false. What one groups believes is right, another group believes it to be wrong. If people could judge truth and falsehood or right and wrong without a need for an external criterion then this situation between people could never arise. It is a clear proof that people need guidance from God as the criterion for judging what is true or false or what is right or wrong. This is why ignoring revelation of God has utmost serious consequences for humanity as a whole. It is only through creation and revelation of God humanity can come to know if morality is absolute or not or both. Why? Because God knows all in all and people do not. This is why morality is absolute from point of view of God because he knows everything fully already but relative from point of view of humanity because people need to learn things and arrive at that stage before they too could see things as they are or as they should be in relation to morality. This is why what God says is true is actually true but it will take us human beings a very long and a very hard struggle to find out what God has said is true, because we will have to gain the needed information about the issue and then after making proper sense of that information we will come to the very same truth.

    Many such points made in the quran force one to accept the claims the quran makes that it is truly revealed word of God. This is why God has created humanity in its simplest form both biologically as well as psychologically. Because once God expressed himself through creation and revelation then he could be truly appreciated by his human creatures if they so chose by learning and doings all they needed to learn and do all by themselves. This is why human beings are top most creatures of God or worst of all the creation. It is because man can climb up the ladder of dignity and honour by thinking and doing what is inline with guidance of God and humanity or go down and be lowest of the low by thinking and doing what goes against God and humanity. This is why humanity is working towards the end God has set for it right from the very beginning. A time will come when humanity will become wise enough to self organise and self regulate itself according to guidance of God and bring about a world like paradise for itself in this very universe. This is why deen of islam has fives main pillars 1)TOHEED 2)SALAAH 3)SOWM, 4)ZAKAAH and 5) HAJJ. What is connection between these pillars? In simple words these pillar tell people to be a perfect human brotherhood or a single human family under one true God.

    The pillar called TOHEED is about belief in one true God by way of his revealed word for this era the quran which is revealed via his final messenger muhammad. This is why none can claim to own or rule even a simplest possible subatomic particle let alone a human being. This is why no muslim can be a ruler or master of another muslim or for that matter a nonmuslim because muslims are supposed to be members of the very same brotherhood of humanity or human family. People who claim to be muslims are supposed to cooperate and fully support each other for ensuring well being of each other and thereby of the whole proper human community in the kingdom of God. One can therefore clearly see that people who claim to be muslims how close they are to actual teaching of the quran. This pillar is not at all about POOJA of God. God does not ask people for POOJA ie ritalistic worship of God. God does not need anyone to pay him any lip service because it does not fulfil his purpose of creating human beings. This is why to translate or interpret this pillar as none is worthy of ritualistic worship other than Allah is totally wrong interpretation of this pillar. I will explain latter on why God cannot be worshipped or why it is wrong to do so when I discuss religion and its absurdities. 

    The pillar called SALAAH is about bringing about a proper human community in the kingdom of God according to guidance of God. This pillar is about connecting or linking or joining or sticking people together as a family or a brotherhood of humanity for God sake. In other words it is about establishing a network of humanity under God or for sake of God. It has nothing at all to do with what name sake muslims claim to be daily prayers. I will later on explain why God could never ask people for daily prayers. One will come to realise how absurd this idea of five daily prayers is.

    The pillar called SOWM is about people not thinking and doing anything which may fracture or break up the proper human community that is established in the kingdom of God or may not even let a proper human community come about to begin with. This has nothing at all to do with people fasting or staying hungry and thirsty from dawn to sunset for thirty days during month of ramadan. In fact there was no such thing as called islamic months during life time of the messenger of God. What we call muslim calendar was started by second caliph of islam after the death of the messenger of God. Again I will try and explain why fasting is not part of deen of islam as practised by namesake muslims.

    The pillar called ZAKAAH is about thinking and doing all one can to strengthen the proper human community so that it develops or grows or progresses and prospers and so that others also come and join this community for ensuring their own well being by being part of this brotherhood under one true God. It has nothing at all to do with rich giving alms for the poor at the rate of 2.5% on their savings each year. Buying and selling things is not allowed in deen of islam because no one owns anything at all other than God so how can anyone sell anything which none has the right to own to begin with? It is a mechanism of exploitation and manipulation and making fool of each other for personal gains at the expense of each other. There is no such things as rich and poor muslims. Ummah means one people under one true God. Can such people ever become an ummah or a proper human community under one true God who exploit and manipulate each other? Again I will go into great detail about all these things later on. So ZAKAAH too cannot be what namesake muslims claim it to be. This is a ploy by powerful and rich people who say they are muslims but actually they are not. All this is going to be explained in detail.

    The pillar called HAJJ is about undertaking a sacred journey towards a sacred or God appointed destiny or end goal. The end goal according to the quran is bringing about a kingdom wherein people live by rule of law of God and once such a kingdom is brought about to maintain it or to keep it going, the best people can according to their God given abilities for sake of God and ensuring well being of humanity. Did name sake muslims do any of these things which have power to change things in this world for mankind for the best? No, they can't even think at this level or let others think at this level let alone they think and do things at this level instead most of them are worse than animals because they do not use their God given brains to think and do things which God tells them to think and do. Instead they get busy waving their back sides in the air and rubbing their noses on the ground. Calling their such acts worship of God. The quran provides an architectural map for building a proper human society. This is what word UMRAH is used for. The quranic text has nothing at all to do with visiting kaba in makkah as the main pillar of deen of islam. if anything even ancient sights are important to visit according to the quran, not because they are holy sights but so that people could learn from good or bad beliefs and practices of people who lived in there to see what gained or lost by living according to God advised way of life or by living against it.
       
    Regardless these explanations clearly show that deen of islam teaches humanity to be one for all and all for one. Look at wording of muslim AZAAN which namesake muslims call, a call to prayer for muslims. It is not a call to prayer for muslims but a call to deen of islam for humanity as a whole. People are told come and be part of a proper human community so that you could be successful in having a great life in here as well as in hereafter. This explanation should leave none in doubt that deen of islam has nothing at all to do with mazhab or religion or namesake muslims. It is all about real life and its realities. This is why deen of islam is about a proper human society, its proper politics, its proper culture and its proper economics etc etc. It has nothing at all to do with mullahs nonsense they call islam or religion of islam. One simple question is enough to dismantles islam of mullahs and namesake muslims. Mullahs also accept their islam has five pillars. What this means is that main islam is all about these fives pillars or in their mind these five things are of the utmost importance in their islam. This being the case, can any mullah or any namesake muslim tell me which of these pillars deals with real world real issues effectively if islam of mullahs is the best way of life for humanity to live by? None can ever give a worthy answer for this question try all one can. No religion can answer tough questions no matter what because all religions are human creations which have been adjusted to accommodate interests of various parties ie rulers, money lenders and mullahs. Deen of islam is a straightforward way of life and it is up to people to accept or reject it and face the consequence which cannot be escaped by anyone ever. Not only in hereafter but right in this very world.

    Deen of islam is about people organising and regulating themselves according to the quran based constitution and laws for doing works of God as his employees or workers or servants and it is not about ruling humanity but serving humanity for sake of God. This is where secularism and religion both fail humanity in a very bad way. Look at how democratic system works in the world to fool the uneducated and unaware. This is why proper education of each and every person is of vital importance so that together people could bring about a proper human community and reap the benefits promised in the quran. Deen of islam is not about sitting on the prayer mat and crying to God for help. It is because whatever humanity needed for doing what they were created for by God has already been  given to them including things for use and guidance. So all people need to do is learn about things and guidance of God and get on with doing things that need to be done by them so that as a result this world becomes a paradise for humanity. This is why islam is a proper way of life because it deals with real world issues properly. It is about livelihood of humanity or its sustenance. It tells people how they should fulfil their daily needs properly as individuals within the proper human community. That is where humanity is mislead by religious and secular forces because they try to take people away from real way of life therefore people instead of working for ensuring well being of each other start attacking each other for dispossessing each other or robbing each other by force or by tricks or clever mechanisms. It is because some people want to be masters of others whereby they try to enslave each other by various means or methods or ways. This is why they try their best to take control of land and resources and means of production and distribution so that thereby they could control people mentally and physically. Such people use religion for the very same end as seculairm.

    These people try their best not to let rest of people live their lives properly by creating oppressive conditions or situations or circumstances and if any of the people try and blame them they quickly tell them it is all fault of your God because he has not given you what he has given us. The quran tells us that God created people different from each other by giving some people more advantages than others so that people complement each other by cooperating fully with each other and working in harmony. This is how the blind and the legless can escape the fire in the jungle ie blind carrying the legless on his shoulders and the legless guiding the blind. However human beings instead of working in harmony and complementing each other try and take undue advantages of each other for their petty personal gains at each other's expense. So one can see why and how powerful and wealthy people fund mullaism so that they could keep rest of masses confused through their wrong interpretations of the God sent scriptures to mislead humanity thereby. It is because these people have no real knowledge about the God sent scriptures. Moreover these people do not build sufficient proper educational places because then educated people will become a threat for their lifestyle at the expense of rest of humanity. This shows how all wars and terrorism is created by design and it has nothing at all to do with the quranic teaching. The very people who create terrorism and wars between people for their petty personal gains complain against it the most as well as very loudly. The quranic teaching is simple, it is up to people themselves to make their lives a paradise or a hell by following the right or wrong way of life. One cannot reach the right destination by following the wrong way that leads nowhere or to somewhere else away from the intended destination. Life of paradise or hell starts in this life and continues into the life to come.

    From the explanations I have provided so far it should very be clear how mullahs have made fool of namesake muslims as well as nonmuslim who do not study the quran properly by themselves and depend fully upon mullahs and follow them blindly. They have replaced the quranic words with wrong meanings eg word masjid is turned into a prayer temple which is actually a place from where administration of the kingdom of God is supposed to carry out its God given tasks as decided by the community as a whole. Masaajid are supposed to be government offices from where worker of God are supposed to carry out their God given duties to serve the ummah, the duties which are decided and given to them by ummah or the proper human community. The quran was misinterpreted to show islam is a religion like any other religion which it is not. This is why the quran needs to be interpreted properly in context of deen of islam. This is proper context of the quran in which the whole quran needs to be interpreted to put things right for humanity. We can see the quran repeatedly talks about some things because those things are very very important for humanity to know and take heed. It repeatedly warns against thinking and doing wrongs to each other. Not because God is angry but that he is wise and wants people to know where they are heading or will end up if they will continue along that path. The quran is a book for a proper education based revolution for bringing about changes in human societies for the best of mankind. We cannot change anything by sitting in temples and praying or repeating some words or doing religious things. Religion in that sense is utterly ineffective. This is why it is used by the powerful and the rich to make fool of masses. Their good or bad is decided by religious criterion instead of how it affects humanity at large. You pray to God five times daily you go to paradise or you say these words and you are forgiven all your sins etc etc. This is how they fool masses to think they are good people without really doing anything good for God or humnaity. Religious chip on the shoulder has nothing at all to do with deen of islam. Deen of Islam is all about what people actually think and do for or against each other. This is how they are defined as good citizens of kingdom of God or as criminals who disobey rule of law of God and think and do harmful and destructive things to each other.

    In deen of islam people and God are all bound by the very same rule of law of God. This is why even God cannot deviate from his given law or go back on his words or promises. This is why people will get what they have been promised by God as they respond to call of God. There is no concept of forgiveness of sins in deen of islam. You commit a crime against humanity you pay for it because that is what is promised by God.  There is no concept of intervention by anyone for getting anyone forgiveness of one's sins. People can intervene only to stop one from committing a crime before one does it. If a crime is committed then punishment must follow be it right away or after a given respite ends. There are no exceptions in set laws of God as already explained in case of miracles and laws of nature etc. You put your hand in fire it will burn. Mullahs have given wrong meanings to word ISTAGHFAAR. In quranic context it means to seek protection of God not his forgiveness. The idea is to do things which God says people should for ensuring well being of each other and they should not do things to each other from which God stops them. This is how people can protect themselves from hands or each other as a proper human community. This is why people must try their best to help each other in doing good for one another and they must not let each other do bad to each other. This is how the human community can stay safe and will not need any saviour after destroying itself by doing wrongs to each other. My explanations should make clear to people how they are made fools by ignorant people who claim to be religious leaders. This is why they need to educate themselves properly or keep suffering terribly painfully. There is no one coming to save anyone or to forgive any crimes people commit against each other for their petty personal gains at each other's expense. Such beliefs and practices are utterly false and are invented to make fools of people so that they remain put after wrong is done to them in hope that someone else will come and save them or will put things right for them.

    It is people themselves who are supposed to keep their world the way they want it because the world is what people make of it all by themselves. God does not intervene in this world the way religious people believe it to be the case. So stop reading mullahs translations and interpretation of the quran and learn language of the quran to see how wrong people are about the quran. Deen of islam is very simple, be a community and work hard for ensuring well being of each other according to the best of your God given abilities and share the benefits appropriately. This is why there is no concept of joblessness or unemployment in deen of islam. It is because deen of islam is about helping each other to develop to full potential by actualising potentialities God has placed in people and not to prevent each other from progress and prosperity by placing obstacle and hurdles in each other's way. This is why religion and secularism cannot compete with deen of islam.

    Now let us look at sunnah concept of mullahs and their foolish followers. They think muslims should act like the final messenger of God or copy him or imitate his actions. They have no sense to realise that if people follow a daily routine they become stuck with it therefore they cannot develop or make progress therefore they cannot prosper as a community and instead they stagnate and regress as rest of humanity moves on. Deen of islam tells us to go back in time for things which provide us basis for our future and that we must move forward in time so that we have a great future. The quran nowhere tells us to follow messenger of God in a way that makes us get stuck in the 7th century arabian desert. It instead it tells us to be on the top of the world by building a community based upon the model the quran provides for building such a community. The quran tells us how to create wealth properly and how to distribute it so that there is no one poor or weak in the proper human community. This is why there is no concept of charity for the poor in deen of islam instead all muslim are supposed to be in the very same boat. It is because each and every person belongs to God and each and every thing belongs to God. So no one is doing anything for anyone rather all are doing everything for sake of God whereby all benefit. In such a society all are humble and thankful to God that he has chosen them to help others for his sake. This is why an abled bodied person cannot look down upon a person with disabilities with disdain or as a burden on society. This is how trinity of rulers, money lenders and mullahs becomes fully exposed as axis of evil.

    Next I hope to talk about position or status of hadith books, sunnah or praying to God to show why it is wrong to pray to God 5 times daily on fixed times.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #25 - October 27, 2020, 09:44 AM

    Another point for people to understand clearly is, islam is a deen, not a mazhab. Why? Because the quran calls the way of life advised by God for humanity to live by DEEN AL ISLAAM. Why the quranic way of life is called deen of islam? Because it is the only way of life that if understood properly and followed faithfully by humanity, it will lead humanity to unity, peace , progress and prosperity in here as well as in hereafter.
    In other words humanity can have a blissful, dignified and secure existence in here as well as hereafter if it understands the quran properly and lives by it faithfully. The quran rejects idea of any personal God, it is because if there is a God then that God is God of each and every person or thing.

    The question is what is deen and what is mazhab? Deen is a way of life revealed by God for mankind to live by in order to have a great life in this world as well as in hereafter. Mazhab is what human being have learned so far all by themselves regarding God and his creation. It is not based upon revelations of God but ideas of people themselves due to their own life experiences and interactions within their social environements. In other words it should be very clear for everyone that it was mazhab that came about long before God revealed deen of islam for humanity to live by. In other words mazhab was already there long before human beings were sent message by God for their guidance. The reason is, God evolved human beings from already existing life forms or tree of life. First there was only the earth ie lifeless or non-living matter. Then there came about life form in a most simple form which evolved into many most complex living things and from those living things evolved humanity. Originally human beings learned thing from other existing things but as they got better and better brains they got better and better in their thinking and doing things. It is because God created things from very, very simple things to very, very complex things and he programmed them accordingly so that they could serve his purpose of creating them.

    Why God started revealing his messages to people much later in their lives rather than as the very first thing? It is because God had to wait till some people at least had learned enough sense to understand message of God at least to some degree. It is a case similar to birth of a new baby. A baby has to grow to a stage before he could be able to understand others clearly. So people who claim adam was first human being are totally wrong. No such statement exists in the quran. Word adam is used in the quran for origin and development of humanity as a species or it is used about adam the very first messenger of God to his people. People who deny evolution theory are ignorant to put it simply. Evolution theory does nothing but explains how God brought about things from things and that is what the quran says in its verses. God brought to life living things from non-living things and he changes living things back to non-living things ie non-living matter by way of employing various processes. God brought about all living things from the non-living earth. So even if man comes from monkeys there is nothing wrong with it. Human dignity is not in what man is created from but how well he understands and follows guidance of God in order to fulfil purpose of God for creating him. God has created his creation the way we observe and understand it and not any other way. One has to understand clearly that there are only two acts of God whereby he expressed himself and they are his creation and his revelation. Another point to note is that if God could create his creation then he could also reveal his messages to mankind for their guidance by employing a particular process or mechanism. The idea that God could not interact with his creatures is nothing but nonsense. Equally absurd is the idea that since God can interact with his creatures, he can do whatever he likes and since he can do whatever he likes therefore he has done all kinds of things which people attribute to him. This is nonsense because God had a purpose in his mind for creating things so he is bound by his purpose not to deviate from it therefore he cannot act against his own decision ever. This is why all senseless attributions to God by religious people are nothing but absurdities and people accept them due to lack of proper knowledge of things.

    God has programmed all things and human beings are programmed least as compared to other living things this is why they need external guidance whereas other things simply perform their functions as assigned for them by God. Human beings are created to program themselves to a much greater degree than rest of living things. People can judge things but they need a criterion to do so as well as information about the case. Both of these need to be learned by human beings. There is no way human beings could know what is really true or false or what is really right or wrong, if they could they could not differ with each other regarding these. For example, if we look at people, we can see they believe and do different things. What one group believes to be true, another group believes it to be false. What one groups believes is right, another group believes it to be wrong. If people could judge truth and falsehood or right and wrong without a need for an external criterion then this situation between people could never arise. It is a clear proof that people need guidance from God as the criterion for judging what is true or false or what is right or wrong. This is why ignoring revelation of God has utmost serious consequences for humanity as a whole. It is only through creation and revelation of God humanity can come to know if morality is absolute or not or both. Why? Because God knows all in all and people do not. This is why morality is absolute from point of view of God because he knows everything fully already but relative from point of view of humanity because people need to learn things and arrive at that stage before they too could see things as they are or as they should be in relation to morality. This is why what God says is true is actually true but it will take us human beings a very long and a very hard struggle to find out what God has said is true, because we will have to gain the needed information about the issue and then after making proper sense of that information we will come to the very same truth.

    Many such points made in the quran force one to accept the claims the quran makes that it is truly revealed word of God. This is why God has created humanity in its simplest form both biologically as well as psychologically. Because once God expressed himself through creation and revelation then he could be truly appreciated by his human creatures if they so chose by learning and doings all they needed to learn and do all by themselves. This is why human beings are top most creatures of God or worst of all the creation. It is because man can climb up the ladder of dignity and honour by thinking and doing what is inline with guidance of God and humanity or go down and be lowest of the low by thinking and doing what goes against God and humanity. This is why humanity is working towards the end God has set for it right from the very beginning. A time will come when humanity will become wise enough to self organise and self regulate itself according to guidance of God and bring about a world like paradise for itself in this very universe. This is why deen of islam has fives main pillars 1)TOHEED 2)SALAAH 3)SOWM, 4)ZAKAAH and 5) HAJJ. What is connection between these pillars? In simple words these pillar tell people to be a perfect human brotherhood or a single human family under one true God.

    The pillar called TOHEED is about belief in one true God by way of his revealed word for this era the quran which is revealed via his final messenger muhammad. This is why none can claim to own or rule even a simplest possible subatomic particle let alone a human being. This is why no muslim can be a ruler or master of another muslim or for that matter a nonmuslim because muslims are supposed to be members of the very same brotherhood of humanity or human family. People who claim to be muslims are supposed to cooperate and fully support each other for ensuring well being of each other and thereby of the whole proper human community in the kingdom of God. One can therefore clearly see that people who claim to be muslims how close they are to actual teaching of the quran. This pillar is not at all about POOJA of God. God does not ask people for POOJA ie ritalistic worship of God. God does not need anyone to pay him any lip service because it does not fulfil his purpose of creating human beings. This is why to translate or interpret this pillar as none is worthy of ritualistic worship other than Allah is totally wrong interpretation of this pillar. I will explain latter on why God cannot be worshipped or why it is wrong to do so when I discuss religion and its absurdities. 

    The pillar called SALAAH is about bringing about a proper human community in the kingdom of God according to guidance of God. This pillar is about connecting or linking or joining or sticking people together as a family or a brotherhood of humanity for God sake. In other words it is about establishing a network of humanity under God or for sake of God. It has nothing at all to do with what name sake muslims claim to be daily prayers. I will later on explain why God could never ask people for daily prayers. One will come to realise how absurd this idea of five daily prayers is.

    The pillar called SOWM is about people not thinking and doing anything which may fracture or break up the proper human community that is established in the kingdom of God or may not even let a proper human community come about to begin with. This has nothing at all to do with people fasting or staying hungry and thirsty from dawn to sunset for thirty days during month of ramadan. In fact there was no such thing as called islamic months during life time of the messenger of God. What we call muslim calendar was started by second caliph of islam after the death of the messenger of God. Again I will try and explain why fasting is not part of deen of islam as practised by namesake muslims.

    The pillar called ZAKAAH is about thinking and doing all one can to strengthen the proper human community so that it develops or grows or progresses and prospers and so that others also come and join this community for ensuring their own well being by being part of this brotherhood under one true God. It has nothing at all to do with rich giving alms for the poor at the rate of 2.5% on their savings each year. Buying and selling things is not allowed in deen of islam because no one owns anything at all other than God so how can anyone sell anything which none has the right to own to begin with? It is a mechanism of exploitation and manipulation and making fool of each other for personal gains at the expense of each other. There is no such things as rich and poor muslims. Ummah means one people under one true God. Can such people ever become an ummah or a proper human community under one true God who exploit and manipulate each other? Again I will go into great detail about all these things later on. So ZAKAAH too cannot be what namesake muslims claim it to be. This is a ploy by powerful and rich people who say they are muslims but actually they are not. All this is going to be explained in detail.

    The pillar called HAJJ is about undertaking a sacred journey towards a sacred or God appointed destiny or end goal. The end goal according to the quran is bringing about a kingdom wherein people live by rule of law of God and once such a kingdom is brought about to maintain it or to keep it going, the best people can according to their God given abilities for sake of God and ensuring well being of humanity. Did name sake muslims do any of these things which have power to change things in this world for mankind for the best? No, they can't even think at this level or let others think at this level let alone they think and do things at this level instead most of them are worse than animals because they do not use their God given brains to think and do things which God tells them to think and do. Instead they get busy waving their back sides in the air and rubbing their noses on the ground. Calling their such acts worship of God. The quran provides an architectural map for building a proper human society. This is what word UMRAH is used for. The quranic text has nothing at all to do with visiting kaba in makkah as the main pillar of deen of islam. if anything even ancient sights are important to visit according to the quran, not because they are holy sights but so that people could learn from good or bad beliefs and practices of people who lived in there to see what gained or lost by living according to God advised way of life or by living against it.
       
    Regardless these explanations clearly show that deen of islam teaches humanity to be one for all and all for one. Look at wording of muslim AZAAN which namesake muslims call, a call to prayer for muslims. It is not a call to prayer for muslims but a call to deen of islam for humanity as a whole. People are told come and be part of a proper human community so that you could be successful in having a great life in here as well as in hereafter. This explanation should leave none in doubt that deen of islam has nothing at all to do with mazhab or religion or namesake muslims. It is all about real life and its realities. This is why deen of islam is about a proper human society, its proper politics, its proper culture and its proper economics etc etc. It has nothing at all to do with mullahs nonsense they call islam or religion of islam. One simple question is enough to dismantles islam of mullahs and namesake muslims. Mullahs also accept their islam has five pillars. What this means is that main islam is all about these fives pillars or in their mind these five things are of the utmost importance in their islam. This being the case, can any mullah or any namesake muslim tell me which of these pillars deals with real world real issues effectively if islam of mullahs is the best way of life for humanity to live by? None can ever give a worthy answer for this question try all one can. No religion can answer tough questions no matter what because all religions are human creations which have been adjusted to accommodate interests of various parties ie rulers, money lenders and mullahs. Deen of islam is a straightforward way of life and it is up to people to accept or reject it and face the consequence which cannot be escaped by anyone ever. Not only in hereafter but right in this very world.

    Deen of islam is about people organising and regulating themselves according to the quran based constitution and laws for doing works of God as his employees or workers or servants and it is not about ruling humanity but serving humanity for sake of God. This is where secularism and religion both fail humanity in a very bad way. Look at how democratic system works in the world to fool the uneducated and unaware. This is why proper education of each and every person is of vital importance so that together people could bring about a proper human community and reap the benefits promised in the quran. Deen of islam is not about sitting on the prayer mat and crying to God for help. It is because whatever humanity needed for doing what they were created for by God has already been  given to them including things for use and guidance. So all people need to do is learn about things and guidance of God and get on with doing things that need to be done by them so that as a result this world becomes a paradise for humanity. This is why islam is a proper way of life because it deals with real world issues properly. It is about livelihood of humanity or its sustenance. It tells people how they should fulfil their daily needs properly as individuals within the proper human community. That is where humanity is mislead by religious and secular forces because they try to take people away from real way of life therefore people instead of working for ensuring well being of each other start attacking each other for dispossessing each other or robbing each other by force or by tricks or clever mechanisms. It is because some people want to be masters of others whereby they try to enslave each other by various means or methods or ways. This is why they try their best to take control of land and resources and means of production and distribution so that thereby they could control people mentally and physically. Such people use religion for the very same end as seculairm.

    These people try their best not to let rest of people live their lives properly by creating oppressive conditions or situations or circumstances and if any of the people try and blame them they quickly tell them it is all fault of your God because he has not given you what he has given us. The quran tells us that God created people different from each other by giving some people more advantages than others so that people complement each other by cooperating fully with each other and working in harmony. This is how the blind and the legless can escape the fire in the jungle ie blind carrying the legless on his shoulders and the legless guiding the blind. However human beings instead of working in harmony and complementing each other try and take undue advantages of each other for their petty personal gains at each other's expense. So one can see why and how powerful and wealthy people fund mullaism so that they could keep rest of masses confused through their wrong interpretations of the God sent scriptures to mislead humanity thereby. It is because these people have no real knowledge about the God sent scriptures. Moreover these people do not build sufficient proper educational places because then educated people will become a threat for their lifestyle at the expense of rest of humanity. This shows how all wars and terrorism is created by design and it has nothing at all to do with the quranic teaching. The very people who create terrorism and wars between people for their petty personal gains complain against it the most as well as very loudly. The quranic teaching is simple, it is up to people themselves to make their lives a paradise or a hell by following the right or wrong way of life. One cannot reach the right destination by following the wrong way that leads nowhere or to somewhere else away from the intended destination. Life of paradise or hell starts in this life and continues into the life to come.

    From the explanations I have provided so far it should very be clear how mullahs have made fool of namesake muslims as well as nonmuslim who do not study the quran properly by themselves and depend fully upon mullahs and follow them blindly. They have replaced the quranic words with wrong meanings eg word masjid is turned into a prayer temple which is actually a place from where administration of the kingdom of God is supposed to carry out its God given tasks as decided by the community as a whole. Masaajid are supposed to be government offices from where worker of God are supposed to carry out their God given duties to serve the ummah, the duties which are decided and given to them by ummah or the proper human community. The quran was misinterpreted to show islam is a religion like any other religion which it is not. This is why the quran needs to be interpreted properly in context of deen of islam. This is proper context of the quran in which the whole quran needs to be interpreted to put things right for humanity. We can see the quran repeatedly talks about some things because those things are very very important for humanity to know and take heed. It repeatedly warns against thinking and doing wrongs to each other. Not because God is angry but that he is wise and wants people to know where they are heading or will end up if they will continue along that path. The quran is a book for a proper education based revolution for bringing about changes in human societies for the best of mankind. We cannot change anything by sitting in temples and praying or repeating some words or doing religious things. Religion in that sense is utterly ineffective. This is why it is used by the powerful and the rich to make fool of masses. Their good or bad is decided by religious criterion instead of how it affects humanity at large. You pray to God five times daily you go to paradise or you say these words and you are forgiven all your sins etc etc. This is how they fool masses to think they are good people without really doing anything good for God or humnaity. Religious chip on the shoulder has nothing at all to do with deen of islam. Deen of Islam is all about what people actually think and do for or against each other. This is how they are defined as good citizens of kingdom of God or as criminals who disobey rule of law of God and think and do harmful and destructive things to each other.

    In deen of islam people and God are all bound by the very same rule of law of God. This is why even God cannot deviate from his given law or go back on his words or promises. This is why people will get what they have been promised by God as they respond to call of God. There is no concept of forgiveness of sins in deen of islam. You commit a crime against humanity you pay for it because that is what is promised by God.  There is no concept of intervention by anyone for getting anyone forgiveness of one's sins. People can intervene only to stop one from committing a crime before one does it. If a crime is committed then punishment must follow be it right away or after a given respite ends. There are no exceptions in set laws of God as already explained in case of miracles and laws of nature etc. You put your hand in fire it will burn. Mullahs have given wrong meanings to word ISTAGHFAAR. In quranic context it means to seek protection of God not his forgiveness. The idea is to do things which God says people should for ensuring well being of each other and they should not do things to each other from which God stops them. This is how people can protect themselves from hands or each other as a proper human community. This is why people must try their best to help each other in doing good for one another and they must not let each other do bad to each other. This is how the human community can stay safe and will not need any saviour after destroying itself by doing wrongs to each other. My explanations should make clear to people how they are made fools by ignorant people who claim to be religious leaders. This is why they need to educate themselves properly or keep suffering terribly painfully. There is no one coming to save anyone or to forgive any crimes people commit against each other for their petty personal gains at each other's expense. Such beliefs and practices are utterly false and are invented to make fools of people so that they remain put after wrong is done to them in hope that someone else will come and save them or will put things right for them.

    It is people themselves who are supposed to keep their world the way they want it because the world is what people make of it all by themselves. God does not intervene in this world the way religious people believe it to be the case. So stop reading mullahs translations and interpretation of the quran and learn language of the quran to see how wrong people are about the quran. Deen of islam is very simple, be a community and work hard for ensuring well being of each other according to the best of your God given abilities and share the benefits appropriately. This is why there is no concept of joblessness or unemployment in deen of islam. It is because deen of islam is about helping each other to develop to full potential by actualising potentialities God has placed in people and not to prevent each other from progress and prosperity by placing obstacle and hurdles in each other's way. This is why religion and secularism cannot compete with deen of islam.

    Now let us look at sunnah concept of mullahs and their foolish followers. They think muslims should act like the final messenger of God or copy him or imitate his actions. They have no sense to realise that if people follow a daily routine they become stuck with it therefore they cannot develop or make progress therefore they cannot prosper as a community and instead they stagnate and regress as rest of humanity moves on. Deen of islam tells us to go back in time for things which provide us basis for our future and that we must move forward in time so that we have a great future. The quran nowhere tells us to follow messenger of God in a way that makes us get stuck in the 7th century arabian desert. It instead it tells us to be on the top of the world by building a community based upon the model the quran provides for building such a community. The quran tells us how to create wealth properly and how to distribute it so that there is no one poor or weak in the proper human community. This is why there is no concept of charity for the poor in deen of islam instead all muslim are supposed to be in the very same boat. It is because each and every person belongs to God and each and every thing belongs to God. So no one is doing anything for anyone rather all are doing everything for sake of God whereby all benefit. In such a society all are humble and thankful to God that he has chosen them to help others for his sake. This is why an abled bodied person cannot look down upon a person with disabilities with disdain or as a burden on society. This is how trinity of rulers, money lenders and mullahs becomes fully exposed as axis of evil.


    Next I hope to talk about position or status of hadith books, sunnah or praying to God to show why it is wrong to pray to God 5 times daily on fixed times.


    why it is wrong to pray to God 5 times daily on fixed times .....Mughal.

    I like that Mughal it saves lot of  time of working class Muslim folks and less trouble at working places of other countries that do not prescribe to Islamic rules and logic.,  ., but you are making your life harder than needed to live good life dear Mughal..,

    And do you know where all these  Quranic statements/ calls/rules  whatever to live human  life  come from?

    do you know where all these  "rules of  DEEN AL ISLAAM" in Quran come from ??


    They come from the statements of these books .....Torah_Genesis _ Exodus_ Leviticus_ Numbers _Deuteronomy_ etc..etc..........,   off course they come in Arabic language..  Here read it in English

    Quote

    Quran deen or Quran rules for human life come from those book  dear Mughal., Quran rules are some filtered version of statements from those books 

    here are some statements straight out of those links

    Quote
    1.I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me…………. Deuteronomy  chapter5 verse 6

     Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, even any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth………… Deuteronomy  chapter5 verse 7

    And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to draw thee away from the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage……….Deuteronomy 13 verse 11.

    4. Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate Me…….Deuteronomy chapter 5 verse 8

    5.   . Thou shalt not plant thee an Asherah of any kind of tree beside the altar of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee. 22 Neither shalt thou set thee up a pillar, which the LORD thy God hateth. ....... .Deuteronomy chapter 5  verses  21 & 22
    Quote
    6.  Certain base fellows are gone out from the midst of thee, and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying: Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known'; 15 then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in the midst of thee; 16 thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. 17 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the broad place thereof, and shall burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, unto the LORD thy God; and it shall be a heap for ever; it shall not be built again   ..............Deuteronomy chapter 13 verses 14 to  17 

    .....
    7.  The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire; thou shalt not covet the silver or the gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein; for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God.............. Deuteronomy   chapter 7 verse 25 
    Quote
    8.   There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one that useth divination, a soothsayer, or an enchanter, or a sorcerer, 11 or a charmer, or one that consulteth a ghost or a familiar spirit, or a necromancer. 12 For whosoever doeth these things is an abomination unto the LORD; and because of these abominations the LORD thy God is driving them out from before thee ................Deuteronomy chapter  18. verse 10 to 12


    9. A woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whosoever doeth these things is an abomination unto the LORD thy God. {P}................Deuteronomy  chapter 22 verse 5

    Quote
    10.    22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to a husband, then they shall both of them die, the man that lay with the woman, and the woman; so shalt thou put away the evil from Israel. {S} 23 If there be a damsel that is a virgin betrothed unto a man, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24 then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die: the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife; so thou shalt put away the evil from the midst of thee. {S} 25 But if the man find the damsel that is betrothed in the field, and the man take hold of her, and lie with her; then the man only that lay with her shall die. 26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death; for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter. 27 For he found her in the field; the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. {S} 28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he hath humbled her; he may not put her away all his days. {S} Deuteronomy  chapter 22. verses  22 to 29


    11.   Not to make an idol even for others, as it is written "nor make to yourselves molten gods" ..............(Leviticus chapter 19 verse 4).


    read more of Islamic Deen from those links of those original Abrahamic faith books.,  we must learn to read before writing on these  so-called god's words   and their origins. their history  and the  writers who penned then in the first place dear Mughal ..  but we do have responsibility to educate our near and dear and our human community ..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »