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 Topic: Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?

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  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     OP - September 03, 2020, 02:56 PM

    I am of the view that we human beings are still not knowledgeable enough to talk about God, his revelation and creation. I think so because I see people lack knowledge about some very basic things involved in this discussion.

    Can anyone explain how many stages of learning there are for a human being to be able to talk about God related things in a sensible way?

    Regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #1 - September 03, 2020, 07:42 PM

    Mughal is well read.. well equipped.. he write.. writes and writes... and that is wonderful.,  let me phrase Mughal's post as pointer and answer them...
    Quote
    1). I am of the view that we human beings are still not knowledgeable enough to talk about God, his revelation and creation.

    I fully agree with Mughal., Indeed we do not understand anything.. forget god.. we don't even understand grass..... his revelation??  HIS.....HIS...... ?? nah  nah.. no revelations., yes there are zillion things we don't understand how they got created ..... but i can assure you dear Mughal .,  God's revelations are NOT in BOOKS.. NOT IN THE WORDS FROM HUMAN BEING., but may be individual can see those revelations of god once in while in their lives... but you know look for them..
    Quote
    2). I think so because I see people lack knowledge about some very basic things involved in this discussion.

    Oh again I fully agree with you there., but you can teach the reader about those things .. teaching is the key..
    Quote
    3). Can anyone explain how many stages of learning there are for a human being to be able to talk about God related things in a sensible way?

    well there could be infinite stages of learning.,.. it is a quest for human life to figure out those ways., and individual must have freedom to explore those ways. Certainly bookish way is not the way., it could be a way for some people  but that is not for everyone..
     
    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #2 - September 04, 2020, 07:54 PM

    I am of the view that we human beings are still not knowledgeable enough to talk about God, his revelation and creation.


    is it consistent to claim insufficient knowledge of something but still assert some of its attributes? seems the equivalent of being definite about your uncertainty - something doesn't add up.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #3 - September 10, 2020, 12:17 AM

    Mughal is well read.. well equipped.. he write.. writes and writes... and that is wonderful.,  let me phrase Mughal's post as pointer and answer them...I fully agree with Mughal., Indeed we do not understand anything.. forget god.. we don't even understand grass..... his revelation??  HIS.....HIS...... ?? nah  nah.. no revelations., yes there are zillion things we don't understand how they got created ..... but i can assure you dear Mughal .,  God's revelations are NOT in BOOKS.. NOT IN THE WORDS FROM HUMAN BEING., but may be individual can see those revelations of god once in while in their lives... but you know look for them..Oh again I fully agree with you there., but you can teach the reader about those things .. teaching is the key.. well there could be infinite stages of learning.,.. it is a quest for human life to figure out those ways., and individual must have freedom to explore those ways. Certainly bookish way is not the way., it could be a way for some people  but that is not for everyone..
     
    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Greetings dear yeezevee, thank you for your reply and kind remarks.

    I think we humans need to go through three stages of learning before we could talk about God in a sensible way. Our first stage of learning is all about things we can detect directly with our senses after our birth. All we need to do is observe what things are and what they do and how they do what they do or why they do what they do. This is how we start rationalising things or this is how we start developing our logical thinking about things from the most simple to the most complex. If we do not learn things to this stage we cannot move on to the next stage. The better we are at reasoning the better is our understanding or comprehension of things. In the beginning we can only perform most simple tasks but as we get busy with our learning in time we come to the stage whereby we can perform most complex tasks. Compare mechanism involved in a bike to the mechanisms involved in a car or an aeroplane etc. If we do not understand bike mechanism then we surely cannot understand aeroplane mechanisms. Moreover if we do not understand visible mechanism then we cannot understand invisible mechanisms because for that we need to develop higher level of thinking ability.

    Once we have reach first stage of thinking level then comes our second stage of learning which is about things that are not all directly reachable by our senses. Now we try our best to come up with tools or instruments whereby we extend our power of observations or detection. By this stage of knowledge we come to realise the fact that not all that exists is detectable by our senses directly. Here we start calling things visible as well as invisible or detectable as well as undeotectable. In other words we come to know by this stage that some things are accessible by us and others not. Now stage one of our learning comes to our help if had trained ourselves well in logical thinking. In case of first stage if one was using a bike for riding and it broke, it will only need a visible inspection to find fault in it eg if a person was riding a bike and was going along then suddenly the turning of pedals became ineffective then one will try to look at the bike to see what may have gone wrong. As the rider inspects the bike he sees the chain has broken down, one was able to find this fault very easy for two main reasons a)the mechanism was simple and b)the whole mechanism was visible directly. Had it been a tv set which had broken down then the fault finding process will not be that simple. It is because the tv set will have much more complex circuitry and will be involving many more components as well as some totally invisible things as well. So now we will have to be able to reason things out at a much higher level to figure out the fault. We will have to know functions of components and the involved circuitry as to how exactly these components etc make a tv set work the way it works so what could cause the fault that has developed in the tv set. Once we have reached this stage of learning then we need to go to yet higher stage of learning when we have to deal with things that are totally undetectable with our senses or even with any tool or instrument.

    Unless one has reached stage one of thinking level one cannot go to stage two of learning and likewise if one has not mastered stage two of thinking level then one cannot go for stage three of thinking level. Stage one is about directly detectable or sensible things but stage two involves some detectable as well as some undetectable things. Stage three however involves things that are not detectable at all by us directly but there effects or affects are made obvious to us through explanation alone. No explanation is a visible object because it is only and only our mental process. This is why to know whether there is a God or not or that the quran is a book from God or not we need to be able to reason things out at stage three level. Unless one is really good at this one cannot know the truth with needed reasonable certainty.

    Sorry for delay in my response, but due to getting old I am no longer as fit as I used to be. Nice to have a dialogue with you after so long.

    Regards and all the best.     

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #4 - September 10, 2020, 02:11 PM

    my goodness gracious .. I knew it.. what a response from Mughal., it is always educational ., but let me hide unimportant part of his post  under the code and respond to the important points...
    1). Greetings dear yeezevee, thank you for your reply and kind remarks.

    I think we humans need to go through three stages of learning before we could talk about God in a sensible way. Our first stage of learning is all about things we can detect directly with our senses after our birth. All we need to do is observe what things are and what they do and how they do what they do or why they do what they do. This is how we start rationalising things or this is how we start developing our logical thinking about things from the most simple to the most complex. If we do not learn things to this stage we cannot move on to the next stage. The better we are at reasoning the better is our understanding or comprehension of things. In the beginning we can only perform most simple tasks but as we get busy with our learning in time we come to the stage whereby we can perform most complex tasks. Compare mechanism involved in a bike to the mechanisms involved in a car or an aeroplane etc. If we do not understand bike mechanism then we surely cannot understand aeroplane mechanisms. Moreover if we do not understand visible mechanism then we cannot understand invisible mechanisms because for that we need to develop higher level of thinking ability.

    Once we have reach first stage of thinking level then comes our second stage of learning which is about things that are not all directly reachable by our senses. Now we try our best to come up with tools or instruments whereby we extend our power of observations or detection. By this stage of knowledge we come to realise the fact that not all that exists is detectable by our senses directly. Here we start calling things visible as well as invisible or detectable as well as undeotectable. In other words we come to know by this stage that some things are accessible by us and others not. Now stage one of our learning comes to our help if had trained ourselves well in logical thinking. In case of first stage if one was using a bike for riding and it broke, it will only need a visible inspection to find fault in it eg if a person was riding a bike and was going along then suddenly the turning of pedals became ineffective then one will try to look at the bike to see what may have gone wrong. As the rider inspects the bike he sees the chain has broken down, one was able to find this fault very easy for two main reasons a)the mechanism was simple and b)the whole mechanism was visible directly. Had it been a tv set which had broken down then the fault finding process will not be that simple. It is because the tv set will have much more complex circuitry and will be involving many more components as well as some totally invisible things as well. So now we will have to be able to reason things out at a much higher level to figure out the fault. We will have to know functions of components and the involved circuitry as to how exactly these components etc make a tv set work the way it works so what could cause the fault that has developed in the tv set. Once we have reached this stage of learning then we need to go to yet higher stage of learning when we have to deal with things that are totally undetectable with our senses or even with any tool or instrument.

    Unless one has reached stage one of thinking level one cannot go to stage two of learning and likewise if one has not mastered stage two of thinking level then one cannot go for stage three of thinking level. Stage one is about directly detectable or sensible things but stage two involves some detectable as well as some undetectable things. Stage three however involves things that are not detectable at all by us directly but there effects or affects are made obvious to us through explanation alone. No explanation is a visible object because it is only and only our mental process. This is why to know whether there is a God or not or that the quran is a book from God or not we need to be able to reason things out at stage three level. Unless one is really good at this one cannot know the truth with needed reasonable certainty.

    2). Sorry for delay in my response, but due to getting old I am no longer as fit as I used to be. Nice to have a dialogue with you after so long.

    Regards and all the best.     

    please DO NOT SAY SORRY.,   and we are all getting old.. do you remember when I said "Greetings Mughal  for the first time??  THAT WAS 20 years ago in that Faith Freedom International forum.... Cheesy., and I see you are still actively posting there.,   So why are you not posting here??

    And  no one will get younger .. well ...  arrow of time for a given life of any species goes only one direction....  we should not worry about that.. do what we can do with in the time  we live...

    as far as your rest of the post is concerned,,  there is so much on the plate .. I am still eating those first few lines of your unimportant  part of the post
    Quote
    1). I think we humans need to go through three stages of learning before we could talk about God in a sensible way.

    2). Our first stage of learning is all about things we can detect directly with our senses after our birth

    well Not sure about the point one.. Why only three stages?  and I don't think I have crossed the first stage ....  any ways., rest I will read through critically and respond to your post..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #5 - September 11, 2020, 08:24 AM

    So back to Mughal's post... my goodness .. I was causally checking web   and I get "Mughal and yeezevee"   all over..
    Quote
    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=15894&start=120
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8853.0
    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?p=187346
    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=15839&start=100
    Quote
    I accept the quran is work of God because it is not possible for humanity to produce a book like the quran. It will become obvious even for thinking atheists if I have the time and health to complete my work on the quran. Even if I do not it will guide interested others to carry on research where I leave. Well the my hope anyway but who knows.


     that is from Mughal in one of his responses

    old times nostalgia memories.... well yes,, we are all  getting old... but that is OK.,  that is the way life supposed to go...So back to Mughal's question..
    Quote
    Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation? 

    well for that we need to define those words first ..
    1).. God, 2). revelation  3). creation .. any way Mughal  says in that unimportant part of his post ..
    Quote
    I think we humans need to go through three stages of learning before we could talk about God in a sensible way.

    well as I said we can have infinite number of stages of learning ...  but that is ok ,, we can have three major stages and then many sub-stages under those three
    Quote
    Our first stage of learning is all about things we can detect directly with our senses after our birth. All we need to do is observe what things are and what they do and how they do what they do or why they do what they do. This is how we start rationalising things or this is how we start developing our logical thinking about things from the most simple to the most complex. If we do not learn things to this stage we cannot move on to the next stage. The better we are at reasoning the better is our understanding or comprehension of things. In the beginning we can only perform most simple tasks but as we get busy with our learning in time we come to the stage whereby we can perform most complex tasks.

       that is fine as a first basic step in the life of a child I agree with that Mughal..
    Quote
    Compare mechanism involved in a bike to the mechanisms involved in a car or an aeroplane etc. If we do not understand bike mechanism then we surely cannot understand aeroplane mechanisms

    .
      that is OK .. both are different transport devices that use mechanical assembly   and they can use biological/chemical/electrical/ or atomic energy to propel the device forward against some  friction..
    Quote
    Moreover if we do not understand visible mechanism then we cannot understand invisible mechanisms because for that we need to develop higher level of thinking ability.

    In this 21st century with internet on finger tips.,   we understand  the visible mechanisms of many mechanical/electrical/biological devices of the planet we live in   far far better than what  cave dwellers/story tellers/song sonnet writers of the past  that lived some 1000s of years ago..

    Quote
    Once we have reach first stage of thinking level then comes our second stage of learning which is about things that are not all directly reachable by our senses.

     that is OK.. I agree with that ... we can have some more sub-stages under that 2nd stage ..
    Quote
    Now we try our best to come up with tools or instruments whereby we extend our power of observations or detection. By this stage of knowledge we come to realise the fact that not all that exists is detectable by our senses directly. Here we start calling things visible as well as invisible or detectable as well as undeotectable. In other words we come to know by this stage that some things are accessible by us and others not. Now stage one of our learning comes to our help if had trained ourselves well in logical thinking. In case of first stage if one was using a bike for riding and it broke, it will only need a visible inspection to find fault in it eg if a person was riding a bike and was going along then suddenly the turning of pedals became ineffective then one will try to look at the bike to see what may have gone wrong. As the rider inspects the bike he sees the chain has broken down, one was able to find this fault very easy for two main reasons a)the mechanism was simple and b)the whole mechanism was visible directly. Had it been a tv set which had broken down then the fault finding process will not be that simple. It is because the tv set will have much more complex circuitry and will be involving many more components as well as some totally invisible things as well. So now we will have to be able to reason things out at a much higher level to figure out the fault. We will have to know functions of components and the involved circuitry as to how exactly these components etc make a tv set work the way it works so what could cause the fault that has developed in the tv set. Once we have reached this stage of learning then we need to go to yet higher stage of learning when we have to deal with things that are totally undetectable with our senses or even with any tool or instrument.

    dear Mughal  I fully understand your point of the existence of invisible world to our senses .,  I worked with Synchrotron light sources  where one uses invisible waves to probe structures of biological molecules at atomic lengths........  and I fully agree with you on the basic premises of your post that  ., we must keep options open to explore the vast invisible world that lives around us and far way from us in this universe
    Quote
    Unless one has reached stage one of thinking level one cannot go to stage two of learning and likewise if one has not mastered stage two of thinking level then one cannot go for stage three of thinking level. Stage one is about directly detectable or sensible things but stage two involves some detectable as well as some undetectable things. Stage three however involves things that are not detectable at all by us directly but there effects or affects are made obvious to us through explanation alone

    . that is fine ... I agree with you there   and  we can have more sub-stages under that stage 3.,  but   what you wrote below is a problem
    Quote
    No explanation is a visible object because it is only and only our mental process.

    yes ....indeed it is mental......... mental  process .. so let us keep that mental process open for all times for those people who can explore using their individual mental abilities ..  let us not lock it out to a book  by using  physical, emotional, political  forces....

    Quote
    This is why to know whether there is a God or not or that the quran is a book from God or not we need to be able to reason things out at stage three level. Unless one is really good at this one cannot know the truth with needed reasonable certainty.

    And I fully agree with you on that  "to reason, to debate, to discuss" ......  things...  and   also we must lean to differentiate .. god.  or  inquiring about god  from book/s written by some guys  as word of god...

    Quote


    and  let us continue on the subject and those links and many many  of your posts tells me the level of patience you have in life dear Mughal


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #6 - September 13, 2020, 02:19 PM

    is it consistent to claim insufficient knowledge of something but still assert some of its attributes? seems the equivalent of being definite about your uncertainty - something doesn't add up.


    Dear crumble, it is an observable reality that we human beings are born knowing absolutely nothing at all and no matter what we can only learn so much beyond which we cannot go. In other words there is a limit as to how far we can learn things. No human being can tell us names of all the kinds of plants for example let alone all kinds of things. Our universe is full of so many different kinds of things. We cannot know each and everything in all its detail. It is not possible for us. nonetheless it does not mean we cannot know anything at all about things. Why we are the way we are in respect of learning knowledge will hopefully become clear as this thread progresses. After all we are all on a journey of discovery.

    regards and all the best. 

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #7 - September 13, 2020, 02:26 PM

    So back to Mughal's post... my goodness .. I was causally checking web   and I get "Mughal and yeezevee"   all over.. that is from Mughal in one of his responses

    old times nostalgia memories.... well yes,, we are all  getting old... but that is OK.,  that is the way life supposed to go...So back to Mughal's question..well for that we need to define those words first ..
    1).. God, 2). revelation  3). creation .. any way Mughal  says in that unimportant part of his post ..well as I said we can have infinite number of stages of learning ...  but that is ok ,, we can have three major stages and then many sub-stages under those three    that is fine as a first basic step in the life of a child I agree with that Mughal...
      that is OK .. both are different transport devices that use mechanical assembly   and they can use biological/chemical/electrical/ or atomic energy to propel the device forward against some  friction..In this 21st century with internet on finger tips.,   we understand  the visible mechanisms of many mechanical/electrical/biological devices of the planet we live in   far far better than what  cave dwellers/story tellers/song sonnet writers of the past  that lived some 1000s of years ago..
     that is OK.. I agree with that ... we can have some more sub-stages under that 2nd stage ..dear Mughal  I fully understand your point of the existence of invisible world to our senses .,  I worked with Synchrotron light sources  where one uses invisible waves to probe structures of biological molecules at atomic lengths........  and I fully agree with you on the basic premises of your post that  ., we must keep options open to explore the vast invisible world that lives around us and far way from us in this universe . that is fine ... I agree with you there   and  we can have more sub-stages under that stage 3.,  but   what you wrote below is a problemyes ....indeed it is mental......... mental  process .. so let us keep that mental process open for all times for those people who can explore using their individual mental abilities ..  let us not lock it out to a book  by using  physical, emotional, political  forces....
    And I fully agree with you on that  "to reason, to debate, to discuss" ......  things...  and   also we must lean to differentiate .. god.  or  inquiring about god  from book/s written by some guys  as word of god...

    and  let us continue on the subject and those links and many many  of your posts tells me the level of patience you have in life dear Mughal




    Thanks for your response dear yeezevee. Although for the time being things are not going to make much sense because I am trying to explain different things for what my objective is so kindly bear with me but please do comment as you see fit. Hopefully things will become clear later on when we will discuss what I hope to discuss ie God, quran and islam.

    regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #8 - September 14, 2020, 11:26 AM

    Thanks for your response dear yeezevee. Although for the time being things are not going to make much sense because I am trying to explain different things for what my objective is so kindly bear with me but please do comment as you see fit.

    dear Mughal I may not agree with everything you write but I always read your posts ...indeed it is pleasure reading your thoughts.. specially on Quran.,
    Quote
    Hopefully things will become clear later on when we will discuss what I hope to discuss ie God, quran and islam.

    regards and all the best.

     let us keep that hope alive and let us keep working on it., by the way I remember you translating Quran your own way and your own understanding of Quran., Did you publish that as a book?? I guess for some reason I remember  reading it on Jang English version of it at https://www.thenews.com.pk/.... do you still have it on web??..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #9 - September 17, 2020, 04:35 PM

    dear Mughal I may not agree with everything you write but I always read your posts ...indeed it is pleasure reading your thoughts.. specially on Quran.,  let us keep that hope alive and let us keep working on it., by the way I remember you translating Quran your own way and your own understanding of Quran., Did you publish that as a book?? I guess for some reason I remember  reading it on Jang English version of it at https://www.thenews.com.pk/.... do you still have it on web??..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Dear yeezevee, yes, I am still busy with interpretation of the quran. This is why I am trying to explain things the way I understand them. During my study of the quran I realised that there are some aspects implications of which we human beings have not yet realised for proper understanding of the quran. We have been side tracked by each other instead of taking aboard some very basic but vitally important points. This is the reason I started this thread the way I did. It is because we need to be clear about some things before we actually discuss the quran.

    Atheism is having a go at the religion which I see as a good thing because it brings theists out of their depth and helps to drag them towards rationality so that they could become rational thinkers and give up the nonsense called religion. I myself am anti religion because it is very damaging for humanity in various ways. It does not bring people to God but leads them away from God into utter confusion and perplexity or puzzlement. Religion in my view is therefore a most dangerous thing for humanity, in fact more dangerous than atheism. It is because religion keeps people foolish or worse stupid or ignorant and illiterate. This I hope will become clear as we develop this discussion and I explain more and more things.

    My other point is against atheism ie to me God of the gaps is more appealing and better way to tackle this issue than no God approach till we come across God. Why? Because no God approach is also very dangerous for humanity to take as it has most serious consequences for humanity as we have been experiencing directly or indirectly all along throughout our lives ie Godless human society is a dangerous society by its very nature in my view based upon our life experiences. This is why to me there is a God unless we can prove otherwise. Why?

    It is because our main question to ourselves is, how did all that exists come about? Was it always there or was it brought into existence by a creator? In this regard a question arises, could non-existing things come about out of absolute nothingness? Or could zero ever equal one and vice versa? My answer is never. I mean nothing can come into existence out of absolute nothingness. This means either there is a creator or that all that exists is ever existing. Now ever existence of anything has its own implications eg whatever is ever existing remains the way it is and it cannot change in its nature because a thing can only change in its nature if some other outside force acts upon it. Since there is no other force there to begin with then ever existing thing cannot change in its nature therefore it must remain as it is or as it ever was.

    Since whatever exists before our eyes is always changing with time that means someone is causing it to change otherwise it could not change. This means whatever exists and is changing is not ever existing rather it was created by one who does not change. This means the universe was created by a God.

    Scientists say the creator has to be something simple so God is far too complex a being to be considered as a creator. I disagree. In my view the very existence of something simple is impossible. Why? Because to be simple and be ever existing both contradict each other. After all what did not exist could never come into existence. If something is ever existing then ever existence is not a simple thing. Moreover even for argument sake if we accept there is such a thing as simple then it will remain as it was forever. So it could not create the creation. To create the kind of creation we observe, it had to be at least as complex as the creation it has created by implication. Therefore It ought to be knowledgeable and it ought to be able choose and decide things etc etc. So the idea that God is far too complex being for start of creation is proven completely wrong.   

    This means we have a God and we have his creation because otherwise nothing could exist to begin with. So those who claim there is no God and all that exists came into being all by itself seem to be totally wrong. They have no basis to stand upon.

    regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #10 - Yesterday at 02:07 PM

    Mughal is a fantastic story teller with the patience that rivals no one.. ..  glad to read your response dear Mughal.,  and please do not stop writing..  but here i am going to make your response in to different parts as you are clubbing entirely subjects in to one  post and and respond each individuallt
    Quote
    1).......   Dear yeezevee, yes, I am still busy with interpretation of the quran. This is why I am trying to explain things the way I understand them. During my study of the quran I realised that there are some aspects implications of which we human beings have not yet realised for proper understanding of the quran. We have been side tracked by each other instead of taking aboard some very basic but vitally important points. This is the reason I started this thread the way I did. It is because we need to be clear about some things before we actually discuss the quran.

    Quote
    2)........Atheism is having a go at the religion which I see as a good thing because it brings theists out of their depth and helps to drag them towards rationality so that they could become rational thinkers and give up the nonsense called religion. I myself am anti religion because it is very damaging for humanity in various ways. It does not bring people to God but leads them away from God into utter confusion and perplexity or puzzlement. Religion in my view is therefore a most dangerous thing for humanity, in fact more dangerous than atheism. It is because religion keeps people foolish or worse stupid or ignorant and illiterate. This I hope will become clear as we develop this discussion and I explain more and more things.

    Quote
    3)..............My other point is against atheism ie to me God of the gaps is more appealing and better way to tackle this issue than no God approach till we come across God. Why? Because no God approach is also very dangerous for humanity to take as it has most serious consequences for humanity as we have been experiencing directly or indirectly all along throughout our lives ie Godless human society is a dangerous society by its very nature in my view based upon our life experiences. This is why to me there is a God unless we can prove otherwise. Why?

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    4)...........  It is because our main question to ourselves is, how did all that exists come about? Was it always there or was it brought into existence by a creator? In this regard a question arises, could non-existing things come about out of absolute nothingness? Or could zero ever equal one and vice versa? My answer is never. I mean nothing can come into existence out of absolute nothingness. This means either there is a creator or that all that exists is ever existing. Now ever existence of anything has its own implications eg whatever is ever existing remains the way it is and it cannot change in its nature because a thing can only change in its nature if some other outside force acts upon it. Since there is no other force there to begin with then ever existing thing cannot change in its nature therefore it must remain as it is or as it ever was.

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    5)..........Since whatever exists before our eyes is always changing with time that means someone is causing it to change otherwise it could not change. This means whatever exists and is changing is not ever existing rather it was created by one who does not change. This means the universe was created by a God.

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    6).......Scientists say the creator has to be something simple so God is far too complex a being to be considered as a creator. I disagree. In my view the very existence of something simple is impossible. Why? Because to be simple and be ever existing both contradict each other. After all what did not exist could never come into existence. If something is ever existing then ever existence is not a simple thing. Moreover even for argument sake if we accept there is such a thing as simple then it will remain as it was forever. So it could not create the creation. To create the kind of creation we observe, it had to be at least as complex as the creation it has created by implication. Therefore It ought to be knowledgeable and it ought to be able choose and decide things etc etc. So the idea that God is far too complex being for start of creation is proven completely wrong.   

    This means we have a God and we have his creation because otherwise nothing could exist to begin with. So those who claim there is no God and all that exists came into being all by itself seem to be totally wrong. They have no basis to stand upon.


    regards and all the best.

    I have to respond to your post in parts because a flat response from me will make a  looooong and and a unreadable  post.. so  let us continue to debate such different subjects in individual posts .. Sand I will respond to those six points  of yours...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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