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 Topic: Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?

 (Read 7738 times)
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  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #60 - March 28, 2021, 11:31 AM

    it seems to me that you are not looking at things objectively or purposefully.


    I don't pretend to be objective. It's clear that you aren't being so honest - to us and possibly yourself.

    I don't think of myself as an ex-muslim or atheist so I'm not trying to convert you to the 'truth'. I just pointing out that your arguments are dogshit.

    As there is no need for you to explain how reality works, lets move on to what you actually believe. Here's an an easy question: should disbelievers be harmed in name of god?
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #61 - March 31, 2021, 04:40 AM

    Continuation

    Before continuing here is how the questions I raised could be answered. According to the so far known information, we have common ancestry. Even if we went back on our own human family tree, we should be able to clearly see that. Some of us are more closely related to others than the rest just like we have parents and grandparents and great grand parents and so on and so forth. Just like some of us are first cousins and second cousins and third cousin etc etc so we are cousins of cousins of cousins etc etc. So it is very safe to say that all human beings who are alive today (say nearly 8 billion of us) are at least distant cousins if not first cousins to each other. If we look at tree of life, we humans are not only related to each other but also to rest of living things because we all come from the very same tree of life. This is why we have a number of common genes with each other to some degree. So humans, animals and plants are all from the very same distant ancestry. If we go yet back in time we end up being just subatomic particles that existed in the very same space like fish in a fish tank moving about at random. In short no matter what we are, we are just things living in the very same vacuum or space or place. It therefore should be very clear for all of us that God has created or evolved things from things. That is how we are here today.

    Why things are different from each other? It is because God decided to create things for his own purposes and because they were supposed to serve different purposes in the grand scheme of God according to his plan and purpose. When we decide to build a building we gather different things to be part of the very same building because they serve different purposes in the building so in a similar way God needed to create so many different things to serve different purposes in the very same house built by God. So we human beings who exist today are children of the very same ancestors. This is why we communicate with each other the very same way as we have learned from each other down our generations. In that case why do we speak many different languages when we all started the very same way?

    It is because there are times when we are together and there are also times when we separate from each other for our own reasons. Sometimes our separations are non-permanent but at other times they are permanent. In case of non-permanent separations some people go away from the main group and come back or keep in touch with the main group but in case of permanent separation that does not happen and people become a separate group of people. Since people always learn new things wherever they are so they need new words or new meanings of words to continue life with new discoveries they make and new things they invent wherever they are. As generations pass over time the new words and meanings people invent due to their new inventions or discoveries they become new languages for them after some generations. These are not the only reasons why new languages came about but also some people want to keep some things secret from others so they keep inventing more an more secret codes between themselves. These are the only main reasons where by we ended up speaking different languages which are basically the very same in their origin if trace them backwards. In other words all human languages are original because they are based on the very same original idea. This is why we can build family trees of languages just as we can our family trees.   

    Now the question, why do we need such dictionaries as I propose? We need such dictionaries for a very simple reason which is the fact that God knows all there is to know but we do not. We only know what we come to know after learning it over a period of time. Same is the problems with our human language. We do not and we cannot know future things and we are hardly sure about our past much. Not only that we also do not know our present very well either. The simple fact is that if we are paying attention to things in front of us, we have no idea what is going on between things behind our back or on our sides.  It is because all other things are out of our focus of attention as we are very limited in our capabilities for they are only given to us by God for serving a particular purpose for which we are created by God. Now God being a God is bound to talk about past, present and future so he has to use many words for that purpose however he cannot use words for us about which we cannot have any idea at all as to what they are about during the time of the revelation of God. However the meanings of those word only become clear to us with time, Meanwhile the human language keeps on expanding all the time through out the human worlds because we keep inventing and discovering new things all the time for which we need new words and new meanings to be able to talk about them or to be able to explain them to each other. So we keep extending meanings of existing words and where we get stuck we coin new words and define them for our purposes and so on and so forth. Since God used words in his book are for a particular time period as God does not send his messengers and books everyday, so we need to be able to interpret messages of God for the duration of the God sent message.

    This is how we end up misinterpreting God sent scripture a lot because the time has not yet come for those realities to become known for us. This is the point all people must focus on fully to understand the main reason why God sent scripture needs reinterpretations all the time because as time moves forward so does human understanding of things due to new inventions and discoveries. People of old could not know what we have come to know and our future generations will come to know things about which we have little or no idea at all. The book of God ought to remain relevant to the reality at all times because God is always aware of all things so this calls for its new interpretations by human beings and this is why we need dictionaries which could tell us possible meanings of words used in the book of God not just meanings used by a people just in their own time. This is why the quran tells us we humans are going to discover a lot of new things generation after generation about which we have no idea yet. This will keep on happening till eventually it becomes very obvious for human beings that the quran is truly word of God or from God.

    We all know mullaans are focusing on vital importance of ancient interpretations of the quran rather than writing the newer ones which could explain the quran in light of current knowledge of humanity in a better way. So we need such scholars and their interpretations of the quran that take us back in time where that is vitally important and which take us into the future where that is vitally important. We don't need same interpretations of the quran with different or new names for they waste our time and energy instead of adding to our knowledge about God and things. Is it therefore not clear who is right and who is wrong on this issue or matter in relation to mullaans, scientists or philosophers and sensible people? This is why when mullaans, scientists and philosophers etc say new interpretations of the quran are wrong they talk nonsense. They do that because they don't think at a deeper and wider scale in this regard as they should. Each time someone says what the scientist have discovered is already in the quran, they say, show it to us in your old interpretations of the quran. Such people fail to realise the point that humans cannot see into the future only God can so how could any human interpret the quran about the future?

    Now if people could not see into the future then how could they interpret word of God that way till their time had come. This is why I point out that just as a human baby learns with time so does a grown up human being ie none can come to know anything before one's time has come for knowing something. So humans cannot know things till the time for knowing them comes for human beings or that human beings bring that time for themselves by working harder than they do. This proves the point that all people are just like mullaans when it comes to learning things. Could anyone decide this issue without the explanation I have given? This does not mean that I am the only clever person on the planet who has figured this out rather there are others much more clever than me. The difference is, I focused on the issue under discussion ie issue of God and his book where as all others are busy doing other great things which also need doing. It is because they also prove greatness of God by their works even though this may not be their intention. This explanation should leave one in major doubt why we need special dictionaries if we wish to learn things from the quran and real world realities. The quran is not in arabic but in arabic that is called mubeen. What does that mean? It means God has revealed the quran for teaching people sense beyond what they can learn by way of three methods I have explained but only if they will learn it the way it should be learned.

    This is why if we humans wish to become highly sensible people then we must create these special dictionaries which not only show us the origin and meanings of words as well as the mechanism involved but also new possible meanings of words as well so that we too like God could figure out things before they happen in future. This is why if we will not give due attention to the quran then we will never become sensible enough to bring about a beautiful world for ourselves which the quran advises for us and tells us that it is possible for us to bring about such a world.

    The next point regarding language is about meanings of alphabet set letters the quran uses. Originally people did not know letters rather they used to talk about things using images or pictures as already explained. We can write in any language using the very same pictures. This is why even today we can write any language using roman characters for example. Roman letters are just pictures or images representing sounds and so are letters of all languages. Likewise we use same letters to write arabic, persian and urdu. Arabic letters' names come from hebrew etc letters. Arabic itself is not a recent language but that it was written using letters of other ancestral languages. We have named languages on basis of names of certain areas that were inhabited by certain people at a particular time period so arabic is a language which was spoken by a people who lived in an area called arabia. However basically all human language are same as already explained. Arabic only has a few letters different from hebrew alphabet set for example. These letters were originally in concept based pictorial forms. These pictures then over time were turned into letters and shapes of letters kept changing till people found them very helpful or easier to use and that is when they became stable. So the concepts of those letters remains with us till today. This is why letters be they hebrew or arabic etc carry the very same concepts they originally had.

    Originally people named things by names of actual existing objects or things, this is why we have such a thing as concrete meanings of words. For example, letter alaf means a bull, bay means tent or house or place of stay or residence and so on and so forth. Another vitally important point to note is that almost all letters have opposing or contrary or contradictory or conflicting meanings within them ie they not only contain synonyms but also their opposite menaing as well, so only the contexts in which letters and words are used decide which meanings are to be taken in which sense. For example, letter hay means hijaab ie fence or wall or barrier etc etc. The wall or barrier is used for keeping something inside the barrier or outside of it. So in one sense it means obstruction or obstacle or hurdle or difficulty or problem etc etc but in another sense it means protection or shield or shelter or screen and yet in another sense it means something else etc etc. If one is not aware of such vitally important points as I have explained then one could never interpret the quran properly just by knowing so called arabic as we generally know it. This is why if people wish to understand the quran properly then they must make really good effort to be able to decode its message properly. These are the major reasons why even the arabs failed to interpret the quran properly ie they have no idea about basic things which need to be at the fore front  of one's mind. It is because the quran uses language in a very broad spectrum from as simple as possible form to as complex as possible form.

    People interpret the quran by way of meanings of words without asking themselves where have those meanings actually come from in the first place and why they mean what they mean. This is why they argue with each other senselessly over the quran. Some will argue over what is arabic and is the quran really in arabic language etc etc. They do not realise that all human language is the same and that we have named languages on basis of geography and that is because people have standardised some sounds in particular ways for practical purposes as explained already. In the quran God says, all his names ie attributes are beautiful yet in the quran we find words which we use in expressing negativity. Then we argue that this word only and only means a bad thing so the quran false and its God is a false God. This is how people waste their time and energy. All because they have no idea that words used in the quran mean both good and bad things and that we humans need to choose appropriate meanings from the conflicting meanings. The quranic text has its own purpose based over all proper context in which it needs to be interpreted. For example, people interpret the quran in religious context when the quran is actually about a proper way of life for mankind from God to live by. That way of life is decided by purpose for which God has created people. It is God advised way of life because it leads people to works whereby they could fulfill the purpose for which God has created them. This is why unless people get hang of what the purpose and plan of God is, they cannot understand the quran to start with. In fact we humans cannot understand anything at all unless we have context of something at the fore front of our minds. Context cannot be known without a lot of very, very hard work and wityngoing back and forth so many times due to trying out different possibilities. However once we come to know things then anything is a piece  of cake for us. Confidence comes from knowledge and doubt throws people in despair. This is why the quran is not at all about blind faith rather it is about reason and evidence based faith.

    I think I have explained major points by now so we can start learning the quran in its proper context. If anything comes up later on I will try and explain it there. Anyone who has not read my so far posts or the quran will have problems with what I am going to explain. My posts are for sincere people who at least reflect on things in order to try and understand them rather than those who try to argue to prove the quran false without having real knowledge of things that are of vital importance. I am not telling people new things but the way I look at them is totally new and I have stated enough reasons for that which if are understood properly by people then they will leave no major doubt in anyone's mind that this is the way to go. It is because human beings can only and only rely upon possibilities that are probable as already explained in detail. That is because even our own very brains and senses are not free of human errors.  Individual issue are not important at this stage but an over all understanding of things regarding the quran. Remember anything we human do not know is a puzzle for us and that is why we need to struggle really hard to sort out the puzzle till it is sorted out. Nothing is accomplished easily in life. Some things are more difficult to figure out or sort out than others and that is why we need to struggle through as a team rather than as enemies who trip each other and ruin everything for everyone. So try to be sensible by learning better and better sense and try to help others learn better and better sense. This is the only way forward for all of us if we are looking for solutions of all over problems in a sensible way. So anyone looking for trouble or creating problems will end up ruining oneself as well as others because we human being are created fully interlinked and fully interdependent by God. This is why if one suffers and then gradually we all end up bearing the brunt of it sooner or later. It is as if we are all around a huge round table and we are pulling it or pushing towards or away from each other. So the table will move in the direction the resultant force moves it. I hope we all move this table towards the right direction and whatever results as a consequence will affect all of us in a good or bad way. So hopefully we all will end up putting this table in the right place.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #62 - March 31, 2021, 06:52 AM

    My posts are for sincere people who at least reflect on things in order to try and understand them rather than those who try to argue to prove the quran false without having real knowledge of things that are of vital importance.


    ie, only insincere people will disagree with your posts? what a load of bollocks.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #63 - March 31, 2021, 10:43 AM

    Continuation

     Before continuing here is how the questions I raised could be answered. According to the so far known information, we have common ancestry. Even if we went back on our own human family tree, we should be able to clearly see that. Some of us are more closely related to others than the rest just like we have parents and grandparents and great grand parents and so on and so forth. Just like some of us are first cousins and second cousins and third cousin etc etc so we are cousins of cousins of cousins etc etc. So it is very safe to say that all human beings who are alive today (say nearly 8 billion of us) are at least distant cousins if not first cousins to each other. If we look at tree of life, we humans are not only related to each other but also to rest of living things because we all come from the very same tree of life. This is why we have a number of common genes with each other to some degree. So humans, animals and plants are all from the very same distant ancestry. If we go yet back in time we end up being just subatomic particles that existed in the very same space like fish in a fish tank moving about at random. In short no matter what we are, we are just things living in the very same vacuum or space or place. It therefore should be very clear for all of us that God has created or evolved things from things. That is how we are here today.

    That is NOT clear and that is one of the biggest fallacy faith heads like you have dear Mughal.,

    God is fine..
    God created everything is fine ..
    God worked through evolutionary processes to create human race is fine 
    God created  dog cat rat  snake etc..etc..gillion spices  is fine
    God created  Ebola virus  covid virus polio virus... etc etc gillion viruses is fine
    God created TB Tuberculosis   Mycobacterium tuberculosis bacteria ..yeast ..e-coli etc..etc gillion  bacteria is fine
    God created  STUPID PEOPLE IS FINE
    God controls everything is fine
    God of gaps is fine

    what is NOT fine is your SILLY STATEMNTS such as "
    Quote
    It therefore should be very clear for all of us that God has created or evolved things from things"

    that is NOT fine.,   SUCH SATEMENST ARE EXPLORABLE DEBATB:E HYPOTHEISES AND ASSUMTIONS .,The other thing that you often do in your posts  is .,  you attribute G_D as ..He...     AND THAT IS ALSO STUPID.., God is not he.. your god is not he .. the dick head

    your posts are full of fallacies and assumptions   and you write those assumptions and fallacies as truth and nothing but truth .,And that is stupid  from a learned man like you .,   but I am glad to read you and I hope you are reading  the book links i provided

    Quote
    Why things are different from each other? It is because God decided to create things for his own purposes and because they were supposed to serve different purposes in the grand scheme of God according to his plan and purpose. When we decide to build a building we gather different things to be part of the very same building because they serve different purposes in the building so in a similar way God needed to create so many different things to serve different purposes in the very same house built by God. So we human beings who exist today are children of the very same ancestors. This is why we communicate with each other the very same way as we have learned from each other down our generations. In that case why do we speak many different languages when we all started the very same way?

    It is because there are times when we are together and there are also times when we separate from each other for our own reasons. Sometimes our separations are non-permanent but at other times they are permanent. In case of non-permanent separations some people go away from the main group and come back or keep in touch with the main group but in case of permanent separation that does not happen and people become a separate group of people. Since people always learn new things wherever they are so they need new words or new meanings of words to continue life with new discoveries they make and new things they invent wherever they are. As generations pass over time the new words and meanings people invent due to their new inventions or discoveries they become new languages for them after some generations. These are not the only reasons why new languages came about but also some people want to keep some things secret from others so they keep inventing more an more secret codes between themselves. These are the only main reasons where by we ended up speaking different languages which are basically the very same in their origin if trace them backwards. In other words all human languages are original because they are based on the very same original idea. This is why we can build family trees of languages just as we can our family trees.

      tha is all OK.. god is NOT he..   all that loooong winding running circles statements are full of QUETIONABLE  assumptions ad full of fallacies

    Quote
    Now the question, why do we need such dictionaries as I propose? We need such dictionaries for a very simple reason which is the fact that God knows all there is to know but we do not. We only know what we come to know after learning it over a period of time. Same is the problems with our human language. We do not and we cannot know future things and we are hardly sure about our past much. Not only that we also do not know our present very well either. The simple fact is that if we are paying attention to things in front of us, we have no idea what is going on between things behind our back or on our sides.  It is because all other things are out of our focus of attention as we are very limited in our capabilities for they are only given to us by God for serving a particular purpose for which we are created by God. Now God being a God is bound to talk about past, present and future so he has to use many words for that purpose however he cannot use words for us about which we cannot have any idea at all as to what they are about during the time of the revelation of God. However the meanings of those word only become clear to us with time, Meanwhile the human language keeps on expanding all the time through out the human worlds because we keep inventing and discovering new things all the time for which we need new words and new meanings to be able to talk about them or to be able to explain them to each other. So we keep extending meanings of existing words and where we get stuck we coin new words and define them for our purposes and so on and so forth. Since God used words in his book are for a particular time period as God does not send his messengers and books everyday, so we need to be able to interpret messages of God for the duration of the God sent message.

    This is how we end up misinterpreting God sent scripture a lot because the time has not yet come for those realities to become known for us. This is the point all people must focus on fully to understand the main reason why God sent scripture needs reinterpretations all the time because as time moves forward so does human understanding of things due to new inventions and discoveries. People of old could not know what we have come to know and our future generations will come to know things about which we have little or no idea at all. The book of God ought to remain relevant to the reality at all times because God is always aware of all things so this calls for its new interpretations by human beings and this is why we need dictionaries which could tell us possible meanings of words used in the book of God not just meanings used by a people just in their own time. This is why the quran tells us we humans are going to discover a lot of new things generation after generation about which we have no idea yet. This will keep on happening till eventually it becomes very obvious for human beings that the quran is truly word of God or from God.

    We all know mullaans are focusing on vital importance of ancient interpretations of the quran rather than writing the newer ones which could explain the quran in light of current knowledge of humanity in a better way. So we need such scholars and their interpretations of the quran that take us back in time where that is vitally important and which take us into the future where that is vitally important. We don't need same interpretations of the quran with different or new names for they waste our time and energy instead of adding to our knowledge about God and things. Is it therefore not clear who is right and who is wrong on this issue or matter in relation to mullaans, scientists or philosophers and sensible people? This is why when mullaans, scientists and philosophers etc say new interpretations of the quran are wrong they talk nonsense. They do that because they don't think at a deeper and wider scale in this regard as they should. Each time someone says what the scientist have discovered is already in the quran, they say, show it to us in your old interpretations of the quran. Such people fail to realise the point that humans cannot see into the future only God can so how could any human interpret the quran about the future?

    Now if people could not see into the future then how could they interpret word of God that way till their time had come. This is why I point out that just as a human baby learns with time so does a grown up human being ie none can come to know anything before one's time has come for knowing something. So humans cannot know things till the time for knowing them comes for human beings or that human beings bring that time for themselves by working harder than they do. This proves the point that all people are just like mullaans when it comes to learning things. Could anyone decide this issue without the explanation I have given? This does not mean that I am the only clever person on the planet who has figured this out rather there are others much more clever than me. The difference is, I focused on the issue under discussion ie issue of God and his book where as all others are busy doing other great things which also need doing. It is because they also prove greatness of God by their works even though this may not be their intention. This explanation should leave one in major doubt why we need special dictionaries if we wish to learn things from the quran and real world realities. The quran is not in arabic but in arabic that is called mubeen. What does that mean? It means God has revealed the quran for teaching people sense beyond what they can learn by way of three methods I have explained but only if they will learn it the way it should be learned.

    This is why if we humans wish to become highly sensible people then we must create these special dictionaries which not only show us the origin and meanings of words as well as the mechanism involved but also new possible meanings of words as well so that we too like God could figure out things before they happen in future. This is why if we will not give due attention to the quran then we will never become sensible enough to bring about a beautiful world for ourselves which the quran advises for us and tells us that it is possible for us to bring about such a world.

    The next point regarding language is about meanings of alphabet set letters the quran uses. Originally people did not know letters rather they used to talk about things using images or pictures as already explained. We can write in any language using the very same pictures. This is why even today we can write any language using roman characters for example. Roman letters are just pictures or images representing sounds and so are letters of all languages. Likewise we use same letters to write arabic, persian and urdu. Arabic letters' names come from hebrew etc letters. Arabic itself is not a recent language but that it was written using letters of other ancestral languages. We have named languages on basis of names of certain areas that were inhabited by certain people at a particular time period so arabic is a language which was spoken by a people who lived in an area called arabia. However basically all human language are same as already explained. Arabic only has a few letters different from hebrew alphabet set for example. These letters were originally in concept based pictorial forms. These pictures then over time were turned into letters and shapes of letters kept changing till people found them very helpful or easier to use and that is when they became stable. So the concepts of those letters remains with us till today. This is why letters be they hebrew or arabic etc carry the very same concepts they originally had.

    Originally people named things by names of actual existing objects or things, this is why we have such a thing as concrete meanings of words. For example, letter alaf means a bull, bay means tent or house or place of stay or residence and so on and so forth. Another vitally important point to note is that almost all letters have opposing or contrary or contradictory or conflicting meanings within them ie they not only contain synonyms but also their opposite menaing as well, so only the contexts in which letters and words are used decide which meanings are to be taken in which sense. For example, letter hay means hijaab ie fence or wall or barrier etc etc. The wall or barrier is used for keeping something inside the barrier or outside of it. So in one sense it means obstruction or obstacle or hurdle or difficulty or problem etc etc but in another sense it means protection or shield or shelter or screen and yet in another sense it means something else etc etc. If one is not aware of such vitally important points as I have explained then one could never interpret the quran properly just by knowing so called arabic as we generally know it. This is why if people wish to understand the quran properly then they must make really good effort to be able to decode its message properly. These are the major reasons why even the arabs failed to interpret the quran properly ie they have no idea about basic things which need to be at the fore front  of one's mind. It is because the quran uses language in a very broad spectrum from as simple as possible form to as complex as possible form.

    People interpret the quran by way of meanings of words without asking themselves where have those meanings actually come from in the first place and why they mean what they mean. This is why they argue with each other senselessly over the quran. Some will argue over what is arabic and is the quran really in arabic language etc etc. They do not realise that all human language is the same and that we have named languages on basis of geography and that is because people have standardised some sounds in particular ways for practical purposes as explained already. In the quran God says, all his names ie attributes are beautiful yet in the quran we find words which we use in expressing negativity. Then we argue that this word only and only means a bad thing so the quran false and its God is a false God. This is how people waste their time and energy. All because they have no idea that words used in the quran mean both good and bad things and that we humans need to choose appropriate meanings from the conflicting meanings. The quranic text has its own purpose based over all proper context in which it needs to be interpreted. For example, people interpret the quran in religious context when the quran is actually about a proper way of life for mankind from God to live by. That way of life is decided by purpose for which God has created people. It is God advised way of life because it leads people to works whereby they could fulfill the purpose for which God has created them. This is why unless people get hang of what the purpose and plan of God is, they cannot understand the quran to start with. In fact we humans cannot understand anything at all unless we have context of something at the fore front of our minds. Context cannot be known without a lot of very, very hard work and wityngoing back and forth so many times due to trying out different possibilities. However once we come to know things then anything is a piece  of cake for us. Confidence comes from knowledge and doubt throws people in despair. This is why the quran is not at all about blind faith rather it is about reason and evidence based faith.

    I think I have explained major points by now so we can start learning the quran in its proper context. If anything comes up later on I will try and explain it there. Anyone who has not read my so far posts or the quran will have problems with what I am going to explain. My posts are for sincere people who at least reflect on things in order to try and understand them rather than those who try to argue to prove the quran false without having real knowledge of things that are of vital importance. I am not telling people new things but the way I look at them is totally new and I have stated enough reasons for that which if are understood properly by people then they will leave no major doubt in anyone's mind that this is the way to go. It is because human beings can only and only rely upon possibilities that are probable as already explained in detail. That is because even our own very brains and senses are not free of human errors.  Individual issue are not important at this stage but an over all understanding of things regarding the quran. Remember anything we human do not know is a puzzle for us and that is why we need to struggle really hard to sort out the puzzle till it is sorted out. Nothing is accomplished easily in life. Some things are more difficult to figure out or sort out than others and that is why we need to struggle through as a team rather than as enemies who trip each other and ruin everything for everyone. So try to be sensible by learning better and better sense and try to help others learn better and better sense. This is the only way forward for all of us if we are looking for solutions of all over problems in a sensible way. So anyone looking for trouble or creating problems will end up ruining oneself as well as others because we human being are created fully interlinked and fully interdependent by God. This is why if one suffers and then gradually we all end up bearing the brunt of it sooner or later. It is as if we are all around a huge round table and we are pulling it or pushing towards or away from each other. So the table will move in the direction the resultant force moves it. I hope we all move this table towards the right direction and whatever results as a consequence will affect all of us in a good or bad way. So hopefully we all will end up putting this table in the right place.



    You don't need to write all that nonsense to say

    ...........QURAN THE BOOK IS FROM GOD ... ALLAH whatever .. because Quran says so............

    So in the end  .,  Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #64 - March 31, 2021, 11:35 AM

    ie, only insincere people will disagree with your posts? what a load of bollocks.


    Dear crumble, if we read the 2/2 of the quran. This point is very clear and very scientific. You see, we human beings only pay attention to things which either come to our attention or which are brought to our attention. Not only that but we only pay deeper attention to things which interest us or we find them interesting for one reason or another. We ignore all else other than what interests us or is made interesting for us by someone or something for whatever reasons.

    So the quran right at its start is telling us what sort of people will find guidance in it ie those who are already looking for guidance. The question is, why will people look for guidance or need guidance and guidance to what? This has been explained in surah one alfaatihah already by the quran.

    You see, we humans only look at a road map when we are learning about it or when we need to use it for what it is supposed to be about in order to get help from it. If we are not interested in learning about something then we ignore it instead of leaning about it and because we ignore it we never come to know the purpose of it or how to use it etc etc.

    If we are not aware or not made aware of something we cannot know anything about it. Likewise if we are not aware or become aware of purpose of something we do not learn it and even if it could help us be or have or use or do something we cannot make use of it even if we wanted or needed to later on because we did not prepare ourselves for that purpose to begin with.

    The quran claims to be guidance for humanity regarding why they are put here in this world and what they are supposed to do here and what is supposed to be going on in this world. It informs people about who put them here and why and how they can fulfill his assigned mission. Working properly for the success of that mission is termed a truly huge success for a person and working against it is termed a great failure. So it is up to individuals to decide how they are going to respond to the call of alleged God sent message for them.

    This is the context in which I speak as I understand things but of course I too am a human being and I could be wrong. It is difficult for one to see errors of one's own way all by oneself till someone helpful comes along and helps one to get out of the confusion or self delusion in some way.

    regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #65 - March 31, 2021, 12:11 PM

    That is NOT clear and that is one of the biggest fallacy faith heads like you have dear Mughal.,

    God is fine..
    God created everything is fine ..
    God worked through evolutionary processes to create human race is fine 
    God created  dog cat rat  snake etc..etc..gillion spices  is fine
    God created  Ebola virus  covid virus polio virus... etc etc gillion viruses is fine
    God created TB Tuberculosis   Mycobacterium tuberculosis bacteria ..yeast ..e-coli etc..etc gillion  bacteria is fine
    God created  STUPID PEOPLE IS FINE
    God controls everything is fine
    God of gaps is fine

    what is NOT fine is your SILLY STATEMNTS such as "that is NOT fine.,   SUCH SATEMENST ARE EXPLORABLE DEBATB:E HYPOTHEISES AND ASSUMTIONS .,The other thing that you often do in your posts  is .,  you attribute G_D as ..He...     AND THAT IS ALSO STUPID.., God is not he.. your god is not he .. the dick head

    your posts are full of fallacies and assumptions   and you write those assumptions and fallacies as truth and nothing but truth .,And that is stupid  from a learned man like you .,   but I am glad to read you and I hope you are reading  the book links i provided
      tha is all OK.. god is NOT he..   all that loooong winding running circles statements are full of QUETIONABLE  assumptions ad full of fallacies
    You don't need to write all that nonsense to say

    ...........QURAN THE BOOK IS FROM GOD ... ALLAH whatever .. because Quran says so............

    So in the end  .,  Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with





    Dear yeezevee, your silly responses are also interesting. I mean why it matters God is he or she or neither? This is just the way human language works.

    As for your point about fallacies, I think you need to go over your such assumptions to see if they prove true. It is because they are in direct conflict with three methods of human learning I already explained in detail the way you seem to understand them.

    God as I already said is beyond human finding out. Otherwise we all could find God out for ourselves all by ourselves. This is why unless God himself told us about himself we could never know anything about God. This is why to look at revelation of God as fallacy is a fallacy in itself.

    If instead of examining the alleged God sent revelation to ensure whether it is or it is not a God sent message we just assume God does not send revelations then that idea is false in itself. It is not logical for us human beings to rule out revelation by God. The implication on the other hand for accepting the idea of God sent revelation is that we must examine it for what it is worth and then if we see that it is false or man made then we can leave it aside and carry on living any way we like. This is why this is the right or logically consistent way of looking at things. This comes under 3rd method of learning.

    As for your concern that I am using my assumption as true statements. Well you are right from your point of you but from my point of view they are ok due to my study and understanding of things. However everyone is free to accept or reject what I or you or anyone says because people have right to make up their own minds about things. This is what we can agree upon 100%. I have already explained things about circular reasoning as to how it needs to be looked at or it conflicts with methods of learning.

    Regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #66 - March 31, 2021, 12:17 PM

    Here are some links for people for checking out things for themselves.

     https://www.sacred-texts.com/world.htm

    some english interpretations of the quran by various people

    http://islamicdawn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/eohq.pdf

    http://www.drshabbir.com/library/qxpvi_w_arabic_text.pdf

    https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/114/1/

    some arabic english dictionaries

    https://archive.org/details/QuranDictionary_201606/VIII

    https://futureislam.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/arabic-english-dictionary-of-qur-anic-usage.pdf

    https://archive.org/details/Arabic-englishDictionaryTheHansWehrDictionaryOfModernWrittenArabic.pdf

    https://archive.org/details/LANESARABICENGLISHLEXICONDIGITIZEDTEXTVERSION/AnArabic-englishLexiconPart1-81.00.04-

    https://archive.org/details/VocabularyOfTheHolyQuranarabicEnglish.pdf/page/n35/mode/2up



    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #67 - March 31, 2021, 12:40 PM


      look at these references yourself dear Mughal   most important is READING THEM ..

    https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/114/1/
     
    what is the point of that CHERRY PICKING??   go read this one

    https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/66/1/

    and read that chapter 66  from   Ghulam Ahmed Parvez of your own link dear   Mughal   ., start from page 1003 and read those verses in it

    http://islamicdawn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/eohq.pdf

    IT IS SUCH A NONSENSE.. anyways Ghulam Ahmed Parvez  was a VERY GOOD PERSON., although he tried his best to hide dirt in his  Quran translation under flying  carpet

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3y8UBn8y6Q

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #68 - April 05, 2021, 05:59 AM

      look at these references yourself dear Mughal   most important is READING THEM ..

    https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/114/1/
     
    what is the point of that CHERRY PICKING??   go read this one

    https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/66/1/

    and read that chapter 66  from   Ghulam Ahmed Parvez of your own link dear   Mughal   ., start from page 1003 and read those verses in it

    http://islamicdawn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/eohq.pdf

    IT IS SUCH A NONSENSE.. anyways Ghulam Ahmed Parvez  was a VERY GOOD PERSON., although he tried his best to hide dirt in his  Quran translation under flying  carpet

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3y8UBn8y6Q


    Dear yeezevee, I have read many books in my life time including the ones I have given links to. This is why I explain things the way I understand them regardless of what others think or say about those things if they make no sense to me.

    It is nice of you to bring in cherry picking terminology. We humans always cherry pick because otherwise there is far too much nonsense out there which could waste our time, energy and life. We always filter things or cherry pick them so problem is not with cherry picking but according to which criterion we cherry pick things. Cherry picking comes under learning method number three I explained already ie process of elimination.

    The whole idea of sharing our thoughts with each other is so that we could take things further than where others have taken them in the right direction. This comes under our learning method 2 ie indirect learning method.

    Looking at other peoples' works help us see what contributions they have made for furthering the cause of humanity. They are not for endorsing their wrong thoughts about things.

    My first link lets people see for themselves various scriptures about which people claim they are from God. By reading through them they can see if they can be or cannot be. In there one can easily see the fact that the quranic text style is totally different from all other scriptures. In other scriptures people themselves are talking about God and those scriptures have their own authors other than God where as in case of the quran, it is God himself speaking to people and telling them things and the quran has no human author and there could not be a human author of the quran as we shall see when I come to explaining the actual text of the quran. It is because human do not have the mindset, attitude and behaviour the quranic author has and which is very obvious in all other scriptures.

    It is a mindset, attitude and behaviour that is out of this world ie beyond human capability. We humans are worst enemies of each other and we know it. This being a case if any human wrote a book it will for sure have such information in it which will be based upon that animosity. It will not be free of biases and prejudices. The quranic text is based upon rules and regulations rather than an emotional nonsense but all this will become obvious when I come to explaining of the message. So we humans could not write a book like the quran even if we wanted to. Look at how many books people have written so far and how many movies have been made so far and that should leave us in no doubt that we have not been able to write a single book or make a single movie which could represent the message that is in the quran. 

    The point to ponder over is, we humans are about 8 billions in our number today on this planet and the quran has been there for last approximately 1500 years. How come out of so many human generations no one thought of writing a book from God in the quranic style of writing? This is very first evidence for people to think about which proves the quran is right candidate for being the actual word of God. As we come to discussing the quranic message we will see many such like points which will clearly show that the quran could not have been written by people themselves let alone by any single person.

    I remember asking people here to explain the purpose of taooz or taawuz and tasmiyah and I am still waiting for the right answer. This is the proof how attentively people read the quran for its proper understanding.

    The reason why I gave link to many quranic interpretations is so that people could clearly see the difference  between what i am going to explain and what those people have done to the message of the quran due to their lack of proper understanding of the proper context of the quranic text.

    Similarly, I have given links to dictionaries to show where their authors have fallen short of what I propose and the reasons for that. You also drew the line through the text not realising how vitally important the point I made is in relation to revelation of God..

    People need to realise that we cannot live with each other without some sort of arrangements and rules or regulations. This is why we must organise and regulate ourselves but why should we do all that for what purpose? Only the quran answers this question.

    Again you have brought in point of fallacies. People either have no idea what fallacies really are or where they are to be applied, they just hide behind fallacies by calling everything fallacies to run away from then issues at hand.

    You see, to us human beings only three methods of learning are available and nothing more ie first the direct learning method, second the indirect learning method and third the method called process of elimination and this is how far we can go for our learning. The fourth method is revelation from God because to reach God is not possible for us but it is possible for God to reach us. Human life is all about practicalities. It is not about infinite things or things which are impossible for human beings to be or to have or to use or to do. Human beings have very limited capabilities as I have explained already in detail. Human cannot do impossible things this is why we cannot use any method or idea or mechanism or thing which is beyond our own capabilities. To define fallacies the way they cannot be applied to human beings is a false definition of fallacies. Similarly if fallacies are applied wrongly then again that is false application of fallacies so in either case  such things are used to stop sensible arguments and this is how people define and apply them.

    Why such definitions or applications of fallacies are wrong? Because they directly contradict our tried and long tested methods of learning. The implication of doing so is that if we accept our learning methods are false then all our learning based upon those methods or according to those methods comes to nothing at all and this includes our definitions and applications of fallacies themselves. Do we want this end result? if not then we cannot call anything and everything a fallacy. It is because our learning methods are the only thing we know for sure that they work and we know they work because that is how we came to know anything and everything that we know. This is why I put all mullaans, philosophers and scientists in the very same category of ignorant fools who are just busy misleading masses by telling them to reject possibility of existence of God and his revelation in their own individual ways. So people need to grow up and not run after all the nonsense anyone tells them. It is time people get proper education or wrong kind of education will only and only keep on destroying them by hands of each other as it has been always the case.

    When it comes to learning language we need to become aware of the fact that we need to learn about related things as well otherwise learning some words and not knowing their applications creates kinds of mullaans or scientists or philosophers as we have them. People have very wrong idea that if they learn a language then they can understand anything and everything in that language so why not the quran? It is because as I have explained already a child speaks arabic as well as a grown up highly educated person yet what they understand about something is very different, why? Because what grown up knows is at a higher level or stage and what a child knows is at a very low level or stage. If an arab tells an arab baby to make a cup of tea for him. he will not get it because baby is not yet capable of doing that. Even if the baby becomes grown up but he has never even heard of what tea is then he will still have the very same problem because words need to be related to things they are meant for. This is why context of our talking is absolutely necessary to understand each other.

    This is why I had to explain what human language is, where it comes from, how it works or what processes are involved in it and why or what mechanisms are involved in it and why or how etc etc. All these thing that I have explained are not new for people put they had never discussed them the way I do and the way I connect and relate things together to show how they are interconnected. One cannot look at them in isolation from each other or they make no sense. For example, what is connection between ideologies, societies, politics, cultures or economics etc? What is connection between systems, structures, procedures or practices etc? None of these make any sense in isolation from each other. We always need to look at over all pictures of things to see what part of something fits where and what part it plays in there and how it does that etc etc. In a human society to understand social structure is as important as structure of a building. We do need to know what is connection between floor, ceiling, roof or walls or windows or doors etc etc. Social structure is all about how people are related or connected to each other eg mother or father or son or daughter or husband or wife or bother or sister or uncle or aunt etc etc. We need to know connections between doctors and patients, teachers and pupils, leaders and followers etc etc, Just as we need to know how people are interlinked or interconnected so we need to know how things are interconnected or interlinked or how people and things are interlinked. If we do not then we do not know how we fit in with each other therefore we cannot organise ourselves nor regulate ourselves let alone properly.     

    This is why we need to deconstruct naturally existing things and reconstruct them many times over in order to try and understand them as a whole and as parts so that we could make proper sense of them and so that we could make proper use of them the way we think could benefit us human beings. We are not here to destroy things just for sake of it but that is exactly what we have done and we are keep on doing. This is how we managed to destroy our natural environment as an example. We only think about immediate personal gains at the expense of anyone and everyone or anything and everything. This is the way of life we have chosen for ourselves to live by yet we do not get tired talking about nice things just to fool each other. Listen to politicians or university professors they badly fail to put two and two together properly. Look at how cigarette factories made money and they are still making money despite knowing what cigarettes do to human health. All this because we are completely divorced from morality and concern for each other's well being and yet we claim to be civilised people. Our schools, colleges and universities are factories for creating people with harmful and destructive mindsets, attitudes and behaviours who work only and only for their personal gains at the expense of all else. If our foundation is based on wrong ideology how can we bring about a right kind of human society that is right for human beings to live in? This is why looking at the whole picture is of vital importance. Jails are full worldwide because we have divided societies, or groups within groups fighting against each other all the time constantly. We are in grip of a spiral of negative competition with each other instead of being in a positive competition with each other.

    We do not want to be forced by anyone but we have every right to force anyone and everyone is the mentality throughout the human world. All this needs to be changed and it cannot be changed if we will put humanity on path of utter confusion by defining all practical  ways of learning as fallacies and defining all nonsense as knowledge which only and only throws humanity into an abyss.  It is time we redefined fallacies in light of practical life and living and apply them sensibly. Till we accept religion no matter whichever version and secularism no matter whichever version are utter nonsense and falsehood as well as utterly harmful and destructive and instead we turn to guidance of God there is no future for humanity other than what we already had. It is because if we will continue our journey of life on the wrong paths then we will certainly keep ending up in the wrong places. This is why to determine our end goal or destination carefully is of utmost vital importance for us and so is to choose the right path for right destination. It is a package deal and one can only take it or leave it and in either case one has to face the related outcome regardless one likes it or not. So we better learn to look at whole picture not just tinker around the edges. 

    regards and all the best.

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #69 - April 05, 2021, 06:06 AM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ1_Mz5VFXg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmAiG0zwSJA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_TW0LwKVyc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkZolOKatOI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmROPqk2BW0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsR6L_18rKs

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
     Reply #70 - April 05, 2021, 11:37 AM


    well dear Mughal

    Tube videos are OK
    writing rhyming sonnets is OK
    singing Quran songs is OK
    Praising God .allah with songs is OK
    you can do that in any language
    and every culture has done that   


     .,  But to read Quran and to enquire the history and origins of Quran and origins of Arabic language   and to think and to understand Quran the book  of114 chapters with some 6300 verses /sayings., It is better to read it multiple times  carefully very carefully .. Again as I said   Ghulam Ahmad Parwez (1903–1985) was a good man   on that let us read this again https://www.dawn.com/news/1132974

    Quote
    .......As a young man, Ghulam Ahmed Parvez would frequently wonder: why is the unvarying practice of Islamic rituals by Muslims not creating more upright men?

    He would repeatedly ask why all this ritualism isn’t creating the kind of a society that Islam’s holy book talks about. He would often be advised by his worried elders to keep his inquires to himself. But Parvez continued to study the Quran and other Islamic literature under various religious scholars to look for answers to all that was perturbing him. He then went on to bag a Master’s degree from the Punjab University in 1934.

    Ghulam Ahmed Parvez was now on his way to becoming one of the most well-informed and prolific Islamic scholars in South Asia. When he migrated to Pakistan in 1947, he rapidly rose to become a prominent figure on the rationalist sides of the Islamic discourse in the country. Consequently,  he also became a controversial thinker who would often clash with the traditionalists and the so-called obscurantists until the early 1980s when he finally slipped into a state of disillusionment and self-doubt, passing away as a broken old scholar in 1985.....

     all that is from   Nadeem F. Paracha written  in Dawn in , 2014
     

    Anyways to understand Quran and its origins and history it is better to read Quran. In those videos ..  For some reason you have selected those  few  verses  here and there from these surahs
     
     Surah Al Qalam...................aka Surah-68
     Surah Al Jin....................... ..aka Surah-72
     Surah Al Muzamil .............aka Surah-73
     Surah Al Mudasir................aka Surah-74
    Surah Al Infitar.......................aka Surah-82
     Surah Al Tatfif ........................aka Surah-83

    Why not read them from his book all those chapter .. verse by verse??  we can read it from his book itself .  That is better than hearing from him ., written words are always better than singing songs

    and watch this guy  from land of pure

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6NfcInq0e8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRNYhSnqZP0

    well that dead guy  was such a rascal..,  By the way., this is a very good book chapter to read   Islam A Challenge to Religion  by Allama Ghulam Ahmad Parwez
     
     you like it.. read it

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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