Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
Today at 02:47 AM

No Outsiders? Except at t...
Yesterday at 07:05 PM

Excellence and uniqueness
Yesterday at 12:11 PM

What music are you listen...
Yesterday at 12:54 AM

'Islamic State' a.k.a. IS...
October 17, 2019, 06:09 PM

NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
October 17, 2019, 05:39 PM

New PM incoming
October 17, 2019, 11:54 AM

مدهش----- لماذا؟؟؟؟
October 16, 2019, 02:47 PM

Freely down loadable Boo...
October 15, 2019, 03:45 PM

Catalan protests
October 14, 2019, 06:06 PM

Neo prounouns & facism
October 13, 2019, 10:35 PM

New tunisian prez
October 13, 2019, 09:24 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: No Outsiders? Except at the school gates

 (Read 1312 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     OP - May 30, 2019, 09:59 PM

    So seen the news about protests outside primary schools teaching lgbt narratives? There's probably some irony in visibly muslim parents complaining about indoctrination but that doesn't necessarily make them wrong.

    Are young minds only impressionable when it comes to religion but not in the case of other agendas?
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #1 - June 02, 2019, 08:09 AM

    What agenda does lgbt have besides a, giving lgbt kids a chance if accepting themselves and b, giving other kids a chance of accepting their lgbt peers?

    What kind of ideology are you referring to?

    People protesting against information about lgbt are in most if not all cases homophobes who just can't accept that being gay, bi, lesbian, queer, whatever isn't a choice they make because "I like it".

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #2 - June 02, 2019, 07:43 PM

    That sounds like an ideological argument.

    By the way, small girls should be allowed to wear a hijab to school so they can accept their muslim identity and feel comfortable with their muslim peers.

    People protesting against it are probably islamophobes who can't accept that the hijab isn't the parent's choice but just respecting god's will blah blah.

    ... do you see my point? You might think the school is protecting a minority but it looks more like social engineering. So-called essential characteristics like gender, orientation, race, etc are as arbitrary as religion in the end so why privilege one over another?
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #3 - June 02, 2019, 09:01 PM

    You appear to have gone straight from 'give lgbt kids a chance to accept themselves and let other kids accept them as they are' to 'everything is as arbitrary as religion, so anything that doesn't fit my own ideological conceptions is fair game', so telling us that that lgbt kids are an ideological creation that can be waved away, just like that.

    Charming. I wonder where this line of argument will lead.
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #4 - June 02, 2019, 10:32 PM

    Not quite that charming.

    I'm saying let islamists and lgbt activists do battle without the pretense that one position is intrinsically right.

    I don't think it hurts the rights of children (non-specific and imaginary in this argument amongst assumed adults) to level the ideological playing field.

  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #5 - June 02, 2019, 10:42 PM

    "Level the ideological playing field" here means 'let's pretend that none of the children at this school will be lgbt, and that they won't have noticed the parents at the gates'. You know, the ones protesting that their knowing anything about lgbt people is bad.

    Naturally, their being taught that lgbt people are anything other than normal members of society will do them a world of good.

    You're right, charming it definitely isn't.
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #6 - June 02, 2019, 11:30 PM

    Emotive arguments which invoke the rights of an unknown number of notional children are going to resolve the issue? I don't think so. Compromise is not a dirty word - even when dealing with parents with bigoted views.

    I don't believe this particular program is mandated by the national curriculum so it's ultimately up to the elected govt to decide rather than my charm or lack thereof.
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #7 - June 03, 2019, 07:06 AM

    There is no compromise to be had with people who think that your existence is an abomination.

    If your view is that it is fine to teach children that lgbt people are ultimately a social problem, and not simply normal members of society, you've just denied their humanity on a basic level; no appeal to abstract reason will obfuscate that.
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #8 - June 03, 2019, 08:02 AM

    That's not my view.

    The rights and views of minorities should be taught but to children of an appropriate age. After all, schools are in the business of teaching not preaching. I disagree with your suggestion that anyone's human rights are denied by applying a bit of a reason.
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #9 - June 03, 2019, 07:03 PM

    To say that it's only "applying a bit of reason" is on the face of it driving euphemism to escape velocity, especially when the parents concerned are having their protests framed in the following terms:

    Quote
    "We are a traditional community - we have traditional family values and morally we do not accept homosexuality as a valid sexual relationship to have," he told the BBC.

    "We do not believe in homosexuality but that does not make us homophobic."

    He told BBC Newsnight the lessons were "not about gay lesbian rights and equality". Mr Ahmed added: "This is purely about proselytizing homosexual way of life to children."

    When asked if children could be recruited to become gay, he said: "Well you can condition them to accept. This has been a normal way of life. And it makes the children more promiscuous as they grow older."


    Source.

    The funny thing is that this is much the same line of argumentation that Thatcher used before giving the country Section 28, the effects of which blighted a generation of LGBT children:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VRRWuryb4k

    As things stand, there is precisely no triangulated position here that does not damn the people most affected by these attitudes, which leaves us with the observation that the only sort of "applying a bit of reason" that can be spoken of here is that which has specific outcomes in mind. What outcome do you think will be served by giving ground to the implacable?
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #10 - June 03, 2019, 08:50 PM

    Well, they don't recognise homosexuality, only homosexual acts. Of course, it's a small technicality which they hide their animosity behind.

    Whether you call it activism, lobbying or proselytizing, it has lead to radical cultural change over the years. You can debate what effect it has had over childhood development and sexual behaviour but to ask such questions doesn't automatically make one a prude or a homophobe.

    With regard to feeding the metaphorical crocodile, I think such a mindset is counter productive. What do you think will happen to the parents attitudes and their children when you push them into a corner?
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #11 - June 03, 2019, 09:22 PM

    With regard to feeding the metaphorical crocodile, I think such a mindset is counter productive. What do you think will happen to the parents attitudes and their children when you push them into a corner?

    I understand that this is meant as a rhetorical question, but: all other things remaining equal, I'm willing to bet that if society at large can now be more inclusive of lgbtq people than it was during the 1990s, any such parents will face increased marginalisation if they choose to fight that particular battle, and will be worn down accordingly. If they harm their own children by their actions, they won't exactly have been unique in being bad parents; what is important is that they are not further empowered by those institutions that have a duty to their children, and to the children of others.

    You can debate what effect it has had over childhood development and sexual behaviour but to ask such questions doesn't automatically make one a prude or a homophobe.

    Pointedly making the distinction between the sexuality of people and the sex they have may not technically make one a prude or a bigot, but its regular use as a rhetorical device by the latter makes it difficult to ignore as a heuristic.
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #12 - June 04, 2019, 02:24 AM

    Many of them will simply withdraw their children from state schools. Some may be happy for that price to be paid to set an example. I say it is unwise and will provoke a backlash when the political pendulum swings further right in the near future.

    Your last paragraph reminds me of the below exchange about racists and brexit.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=NfFrW4yDubc
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #13 - June 04, 2019, 10:19 AM

    Many of them will simply withdraw their children from state schools. Some may be happy for that price to be paid to set an example. I say it is unwise and will provoke a backlash when the political pendulum swings further right in the near future.

    A small number of noisy parents shouting about the evils of the gay agenda does not equal a large-scale exodus of Muslim children from state schools, though no doubt these parents will be made out to be a Threat to Society by people whose previous commitment to lgbt equality might be charitably described as dubious.

    If the trajectory of the pendulum is indeed further rightwards (which, for various reasons, appears to be the favoured option among our commentariat), then perhaps this is just a wider symptom of the culture wars already being refought; if the parents refuse to see the bigger picture, that's really on them.



    lol
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #14 - June 05, 2019, 12:42 PM

    In today's despatch from the culture wars:

  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #15 - June 05, 2019, 02:46 PM

    In today's despatch from the culture wars:

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    I  strongly advice her to BECOME A MUSLIM &   TALK  AGAINST ISAM

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #16 - June 05, 2019, 06:39 PM

    Is she officiating their civil partnership? I guess that's one way to settle the argument.

    I vaguely recall reading that the teacher behind all this has form? I think he was asked to leave his previous school after doing something similar. It reminds me of that gay cake from christian bakers incident. ie a cynical plan to provoke controversy, whip up anti-muslim sentiment and set some kind of precedent.
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #17 - June 08, 2019, 11:28 AM

    So read this news about a teenaged gang attacking a female couple. I'd say the gang's behavior is informed by a culture of self-gratification rather than poor sex education.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jun/08/london-bus-attack-fifth-arrest-after-homophobic-assault
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #18 - September 27, 2019, 09:16 PM

    protest-ban goes to court soon:

    Quote from:
    In a school where about 90% of the pupils are Muslim, predominantly from families with Mirpur heritage, the teachers have a difficult balancing act: how to respect the values of its parents, who come from what has been known as one of the most rural and conservative cultures in Pakistan, while preparing the children properly for modern life in Britain.

    Quote from:
    The high court will consider whether the temporary exclusion zone should become permanent in the week beginning 14 October


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/21/birmingham-anderton-park-primary-school-row-parents-teachers-demonstrators

    meanwhile, here's the modern life in britain they're being taught about, ie full spectrum confusion:

    Quote from:
    British Muslims are launching their first ever pride festival at a time when the community is ‘under attack more than ever’. The festival hopes to celebrate what it means to be LGTBQI and Muslim and how they do ‘not have to choose’ between both identities.


    https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/22/british-muslims-launch-first-ever-pride-festival-10788697/
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #19 - October 01, 2019, 04:53 PM

    Logical fallacy in your first comparison so not interested in a discussion. Being gay is not an ideology.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #20 - October 01, 2019, 06:58 PM

    Logical fallacy in your first comparison so not interested in a discussion.


    what comparison? which post are you responding to? and why reply f you don't want to discuss?

    Quote from:
    Being gay is not an ideology.


    strawman response?
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #21 - October 01, 2019, 08:31 PM

    here's something up your street,  baroness warsi (unelected community leader type) waters down the religious contradiction for a radio4 audience.

    Quote from:
    Sayeeda Warsi asks why Islam and same-sex attraction are often presented as black and white - binary opposites - when the picture has many shades of grey.

    The question could not be more timely. Protests outside primary schools in Birmingham have highlighted the often testy relationship between homosexuality and Islam


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07pd7dc/episodes/player
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #22 - October 15, 2019, 08:35 PM

    nuggets from first two days of  the court case.

    day 1:
    Quote from:
    Around 70 people are crammed into the small courtroom - Mr. Manning, representing Birmingham City Council said “This is not about freedom of speech or the right to protest- its about the behaviour of the defendants”

    Mr Robert James from @BhamCityCouncil is standing firm on his claim that the injunction was sought because of how the protesters were acting - “Parents have a right to object to LGBT teaching, but this behaviour has been deeply inappropriate”

    Asked about the #NoOutsiders books @MrsSHC
     told the court “I understand it’s difficult to have a book like Princess Boy - but it’s an impossible situation for me as a headteacher to simply ban it, or lock it away in a cabinet where only certain children are allowed to see it.”

    “I feel a bit uncomfortable discussing these things because I am not a Muslim. But homosexuality isn’t a sin in British law.” - @AndertonPark headteacher
    @MrsSHC enters a third hour of questioning at the appeal by defence barrister Mr. Ramby de Mello


    https://mobile.twitter.com/HeartMidsNews/status/1183612143838597120

    day 2 -
    Quote from:
    Asked about her meeting with Sarah Khan of @CommissionCE @MrsSHC says “if I’m asked about what’s been happening I will answer honestly and truthfully - but the term ‘extremism’ was her word” after a report from Khan saying the protests have been hijacked by extremists

    Asked about complaints about the #NoOutsiders books from parents - Sarah Hewitt Clarkson responds “we heard concerns about parents not being allowed to inspect or vet the books - we responded with workshops and feedback forms”

    Deputy head at @AndertonPark Claire Evans has been called to the stand. The court is being shown videos she took showing how the protest chants of “Head Teacher Step Down” could be heard from the playground, and within the school

    Mrs Evans adds: “You can see from the videos we’re being accused of teaching self touching - and the lady in red saying it was shouting at a level audible to the pupils at the school.”

    Assistant headteacher of @AndertonPark Kathy Mayne has been called to the stand for cross examination by Mr. Ramby De Mallo. She is excused after brief questioning on the nature of how she felt intimidated by protesters.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/CapitalMidsNews/status/1184032573447704576

  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #23 - October 17, 2019, 07:07 PM

    day 3 -
    Quote from:
    First defendant Shakeel Afsar has been called to the stand for questioning

    Barrister for @BhamCityCouncil Mr. Manning suggests “the tactic of your group is to throw all kinds of mud at the school which you know is not true to generate bad publicity” - Shakeel responds “Not at all absolutely not”

    Another video is shown to the court of a protester shouting “there’s pedophiles in there! There’s pedophiles in there!” Outside the school gates. Shakeel is seen in the video standing next to him holding up signs he’s brought with him. The video plays on to show the protester shouting about ‘transgender, pedophillia, homosexuality, sex and bull***t’ while small children are around. Shakeel says he was trying to defuse the situation and didn’t know who the man was.

    Shakeel is asked multiple times to clarify what would satisfy the protesters - he says: “Why should the school be teaching one thing (about LGBT) and the parents another. We want to find a way to teach this without infringing the parents beliefs”

    Barrister for @BhamCityCouncil Mr. Jonathan Manning QC says “the crux of the equality teaching is that it’s ok to have two mums and two dads” - Shakeel says he disagrees: “teaching that being gay is morally acceptable is very different from just teaching that gay people exist.”


    https://mobile.twitter.com/HeartMidsNews/status/1184395240632995841

    day 4 -
    Quote from:
    The court will now hear questioning of parent Rosina Afsar.

    Asked about a meeting with headteacher @MrsSHC after her son brought home ‘Princess Boy’ Rosina says “She said in the meeting they were not teaching homosexuality... As a parent I feel they are teaching homosexuality through the books.”

    Rosina is excused from the witness box after a final question from the judge to confirm the quote from her statement “It became clear she (the headteacher) was indoctrinating children with an LGBT agenda.” - she confirms those are her own words.

    Defence Barrister Mr. De Mello has called Imam @AjmalMasroor to the stand. He is being questioned about a report on how the protests at @AndertonPark affect the Muslim community.

    Excused from questioning having said in Islam it is their obligation to lawfully protest against things which go against our religion “We have a wonderful tradition of lawful protest in the UK - like extinction rebellion in London. If people DO break the law, they are arrested

    Protest organiser Amir Ahmed has been called to the witness stand.

    Manning: Do you accept Mrs Sarah Hewitt Clarkson is not trying to ‘smash heteronormativity’?

    Ahmed: The headteacher’s made abundantly clear her idiological position on this. I think that’s something she would support. The headteacher is teaching people that it’s ok to be gay - she makes no distinction between belief and behaviour. It is not in the equality act 2010 to ignore an entire communities belief - it is disrespectful and discriminatory.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/HeartMidsNews/status/1184850222998052864
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #24 - Yesterday at 07:05 PM

    final day 5 -
    Quote from:
    Defendant Mr. John Allman has denied using a homophobic slur in court towards a witness earlier in the hearing - saying that under his breath he said “well done mate” and was mid-heard by the witness in question.

    Mr. Allman’s lawyer Mr. Paul Diamond is putting forward his argument about social media restrictions included in the high court injunction. Justice Warby tells him the restrictions are not to stifle free speech, but to prevent harassment of @AndertonPark staff.

    Mr. Diamond says the injunction grants the headteacher the “unique privilege” of being exempt from abuse from everyone in the country.

    He continues: “The truth of the matter is that no criminal offenders has been committed here. There is no right not to be offended. There is no right to not disagree with any way someone tweets. There is no right not to be abused.”

    Mr. Justice Warby interjects: “But there is a law against harassment - which is one of the issues of this case which has not been resolved.” To which Diamond responds: “It is not the place of the law to enforce civil discourse though.”

    Mr. De Mello asks the judge to consider: “The school says ‘we would like you to learn about equality and subdue your religious beliefs because it extends tolerance and inclusivity - and steps away from extremism.’” Argues this is discriminatory.

    @BhamCityCouncil lawyer Mr. Jonathan Manning submits the protest ban has been used entirely justifiably: “These powers exist only in situations where anti-social behaviour involving nuisance, annoyance, causing alarm or distress.”

    He uses the example of a naked man walking around the streets of Birmingham: “He may be exercising his article 10 right to freedom of expression, but he is also causing alarm or distress.”

    Mr. Manning continues: “We don’t dispute the rights of the protesters are engaged here - we only suggest that the Article 8 rights of the teachers and children should also be considered” (ECHR Article 8 - Right to respect for private and family life)

    Addressing Mr. De Mello’s argument about discrimination Manning says: “The right to manifest expression of religion does not extend to doing so wherever and whenever one chooses.”

    @BhamCityCouncil lawyer Mr. Jonathan Manning has asked the judge that the two areas of grass on Yardley Wood Road where the protests have been since the banned zone was brought in are now included in that zone. “There is no reason the protests should not be moved to another location not disturbing the school.”

    All arguments have concluded. Judgement has been deferred by Mr Justice Warby: “I can’t at the moment give any reliable commitments to when the judgment will be, but I assure I will reach a verdict as quickly as I can.”


    https://mobile.twitter.com/CapitalMidsNews/status/1185122492416974848
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »