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Theme Changer

 Topic: No Outsiders? Except at the school gates

 (Read 750 times)
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  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     OP - May 30, 2019, 09:59 PM

    So seen the news about protests outside primary schools teaching lgbt narratives? There's probably some irony in visibly muslim parents complaining about indoctrination but that doesn't necessarily make them wrong.

    Are young minds only impressionable when it comes to religion but not in the case of other agendas?
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #1 - June 02, 2019, 08:09 AM

    What agenda does lgbt have besides a, giving lgbt kids a chance if accepting themselves and b, giving other kids a chance of accepting their lgbt peers?

    What kind of ideology are you referring to?

    People protesting against information about lgbt are in most if not all cases homophobes who just can't accept that being gay, bi, lesbian, queer, whatever isn't a choice they make because "I like it".

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #2 - June 02, 2019, 07:43 PM

    That sounds like an ideological argument.

    By the way, small girls should be allowed to wear a hijab to school so they can accept their muslim identity and feel comfortable with their muslim peers.

    People protesting against it are probably islamophobes who can't accept that the hijab isn't the parent's choice but just respecting god's will blah blah.

    ... do you see my point? You might think the school is protecting a minority but it looks more like social engineering. So-called essential characteristics like gender, orientation, race, etc are as arbitrary as religion in the end so why privilege one over another?
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #3 - June 02, 2019, 09:01 PM

    You appear to have gone straight from 'give lgbt kids a chance to accept themselves and let other kids accept them as they are' to 'everything is as arbitrary as religion, so anything that doesn't fit my own ideological conceptions is fair game', so telling us that that lgbt kids are an ideological creation that can be waved away, just like that.

    Charming. I wonder where this line of argument will lead.
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #4 - June 02, 2019, 10:32 PM

    Not quite that charming.

    I'm saying let islamists and lgbt activists do battle without the pretense that one position is intrinsically right.

    I don't think it hurts the rights of children (non-specific and imaginary in this argument amongst assumed adults) to level the ideological playing field.

  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #5 - June 02, 2019, 10:42 PM

    "Level the ideological playing field" here means 'let's pretend that none of the children at this school will be lgbt, and that they won't have noticed the parents at the gates'. You know, the ones protesting that their knowing anything about lgbt people is bad.

    Naturally, their being taught that lgbt people are anything other than normal members of society will do them a world of good.

    You're right, charming it definitely isn't.
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #6 - June 02, 2019, 11:30 PM

    Emotive arguments which invoke the rights of an unknown number of notional children are going to resolve the issue? I don't think so. Compromise is not a dirty word - even when dealing with parents with bigoted views.

    I don't believe this particular program is mandated by the national curriculum so it's ultimately up to the elected govt to decide rather than my charm or lack thereof.
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #7 - June 03, 2019, 07:06 AM

    There is no compromise to be had with people who think that your existence is an abomination.

    If your view is that it is fine to teach children that lgbt people are ultimately a social problem, and not simply normal members of society, you've just denied their humanity on a basic level; no appeal to abstract reason will obfuscate that.
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #8 - June 03, 2019, 08:02 AM

    That's not my view.

    The rights and views of minorities should be taught but to children of an appropriate age. After all, schools are in the business of teaching not preaching. I disagree with your suggestion that anyone's human rights are denied by applying a bit of a reason.
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #9 - June 03, 2019, 07:03 PM

    To say that it's only "applying a bit of reason" is on the face of it driving euphemism to escape velocity, especially when the parents concerned are having their protests framed in the following terms:

    Quote
    "We are a traditional community - we have traditional family values and morally we do not accept homosexuality as a valid sexual relationship to have," he told the BBC.

    "We do not believe in homosexuality but that does not make us homophobic."

    He told BBC Newsnight the lessons were "not about gay lesbian rights and equality". Mr Ahmed added: "This is purely about proselytizing homosexual way of life to children."

    When asked if children could be recruited to become gay, he said: "Well you can condition them to accept. This has been a normal way of life. And it makes the children more promiscuous as they grow older."


    Source.

    The funny thing is that this is much the same line of argumentation that Thatcher used before giving the country Section 28, the effects of which blighted a generation of LGBT children:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VRRWuryb4k

    As things stand, there is precisely no triangulated position here that does not damn the people most affected by these attitudes, which leaves us with the observation that the only sort of "applying a bit of reason" that can be spoken of here is that which has specific outcomes in mind. What outcome do you think will be served by giving ground to the implacable?
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #10 - June 03, 2019, 08:50 PM

    Well, they don't recognise homosexuality, only homosexual acts. Of course, it's a small technicality which they hide their animosity behind.

    Whether you call it activism, lobbying or proselytizing, it has lead to radical cultural change over the years. You can debate what effect it has had over childhood development and sexual behaviour but to ask such questions doesn't automatically make one a prude or a homophobe.

    With regard to feeding the metaphorical crocodile, I think such a mindset is counter productive. What do you think will happen to the parents attitudes and their children when you push them into a corner?
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #11 - June 03, 2019, 09:22 PM

    With regard to feeding the metaphorical crocodile, I think such a mindset is counter productive. What do you think will happen to the parents attitudes and their children when you push them into a corner?

    I understand that this is meant as a rhetorical question, but: all other things remaining equal, I'm willing to bet that if society at large can now be more inclusive of lgbtq people than it was during the 1990s, any such parents will face increased marginalisation if they choose to fight that particular battle, and will be worn down accordingly. If they harm their own children by their actions, they won't exactly have been unique in being bad parents; what is important is that they are not further empowered by those institutions that have a duty to their children, and to the children of others.

    You can debate what effect it has had over childhood development and sexual behaviour but to ask such questions doesn't automatically make one a prude or a homophobe.

    Pointedly making the distinction between the sexuality of people and the sex they have may not technically make one a prude or a bigot, but its regular use as a rhetorical device by the latter makes it difficult to ignore as a heuristic.
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #12 - June 04, 2019, 02:24 AM

    Many of them will simply withdraw their children from state schools. Some may be happy for that price to be paid to set an example. I say it is unwise and will provoke a backlash when the political pendulum swings further right in the near future.

    Your last paragraph reminds me of the below exchange about racists and brexit.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=NfFrW4yDubc
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #13 - June 04, 2019, 10:19 AM

    Many of them will simply withdraw their children from state schools. Some may be happy for that price to be paid to set an example. I say it is unwise and will provoke a backlash when the political pendulum swings further right in the near future.

    A small number of noisy parents shouting about the evils of the gay agenda does not equal a large-scale exodus of Muslim children from state schools, though no doubt these parents will be made out to be a Threat to Society by people whose previous commitment to lgbt equality might be charitably described as dubious.

    If the trajectory of the pendulum is indeed further rightwards (which, for various reasons, appears to be the favoured option among our commentariat), then perhaps this is just a wider symptom of the culture wars already being refought; if the parents refuse to see the bigger picture, that's really on them.



    lol
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #14 - June 05, 2019, 12:42 PM

    In today's despatch from the culture wars:

  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #15 - June 05, 2019, 02:46 PM

    In today's despatch from the culture wars:

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    I  strongly advice her to BECOME A MUSLIM &   TALK  AGAINST ISAM

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #16 - June 05, 2019, 06:39 PM

    Is she officiating their civil partnership? I guess that's one way to settle the argument.

    I vaguely recall reading that the teacher behind all this has form? I think he was asked to leave his previous school after doing something similar. It reminds me of that gay cake from christian bakers incident. ie a cynical plan to provoke controversy, whip up anti-muslim sentiment and set some kind of precedent.
  • No Outsiders? Except at the school gates
     Reply #17 - June 08, 2019, 11:28 AM

    So read this news about a teenaged gang attacking a female couple. I'd say the gang's behavior is informed by a culture of self-gratification rather than poor sex education.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jun/08/london-bus-attack-fifth-arrest-after-homophobic-assault
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