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Theme Changer

 Topic: New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker

 (Read 16244 times)
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  • Re: New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #30 - October 22, 2012, 10:10 PM


    Will get back to you on that one, when I have read some more mate.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #31 - October 22, 2012, 10:14 PM

    Thanks. I think I may have to drop hints that I want it as a bday/xmas prezzie: I’ve been reading some extracts (such as the start of chapter 3) using the Look Inside feature on Amazon and the book seems fascinating!
  • Re: New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #32 - October 22, 2012, 10:25 PM

    Quote
    Thanks for the whole bullet point list, it has me very interested. However, it is the above that bothers me a little. When the Arabs were ruling various bits of the world in the name of Islam they never really had either of those two cities as their established bases of operations, so why and how did they settle on those particular places out of all the others? They set up shop in Baghdad, Damascus, etc. didn’t they?


    Tom Holland basically agrees with this, my impression is that this has now been established - that Mecca and Medina are much later, but we have not yet worked out why.

    It is also very unclear that they were conquering in the name of Islam.  That is looking like a much later justification for a bit of successful warring and plundering and whoring.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #33 - October 22, 2012, 10:29 PM

    Thanks. I think I may have to drop hints that I want it as a bday/xmas prezzie: I’ve been reading some extracts (such as the start of chapter 3) using the Look Inside feature on Amazon and the book seems fascinating!


    Its really, really good. Save up for it. Its a steep price, but an exceptional work, at least from what I have read so far.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #34 - October 22, 2012, 10:29 PM



    Islam was constructed by men retrospectively. Just as Christianity was invented, consolidated, refined and institutionalised, and just as Judaism and Zoroastrianism were constructs of their time, pressures and situations.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #35 - October 22, 2012, 10:36 PM

    "particularly if the end was expected to come before Mohammed died"

    Were the arab conquests evangelical?  Convert and go to heaven, get killed you were going to hell in any case, allah is coming very soon.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #36 - October 30, 2012, 03:44 PM

    in a nutshell, what's the book about/
  • Re: New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #37 - October 30, 2012, 04:11 PM


    Go through the thread

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #38 - November 14, 2012, 04:34 PM

    Ok. Got the book today. Going to read it and post a comment here when I am done.  dance

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #39 - November 15, 2012, 12:47 PM


    Great, I have read the first couple of chapters and then got sidelined by other stuff, will get back into this book and finish it soon

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #40 - December 18, 2012, 10:46 PM

    So I dropped the ‘hint’ and my youngest sister is getting me this book for my birthday anniversary. Yay! dance
  • New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #41 - December 18, 2012, 10:48 PM

    Nice one Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #42 - December 24, 2012, 09:10 PM

    Well, I’ve been given the book, and I’m surprised by how thin it is, haha. The introduction and first few pages of Chapter 1 I have now read, and there are both good and bad points. The main thrust of the argument is that Muhammad was still alive 2 years after his supposed death, when the Arabs invaded Palestine. However, the proof provided thus far is vague and unconvincing. There are references to someone leading the Arabs, but it could very well have been Abu Bakr or any other Khalifah, not necessarily Mo himself.

    I hope that picks up and becomes more solid (as I said, not gotten very far into it yet).

    On the plus side, the introduction is a marvel of disinterested study and clearly displays that it is not simply an attack on muslim faith, but a considered and meticulous examination using the same sorts of criteria that Biblical scholars regularly use.

    Oh, and I laughed about it being a Zionist conspiracy. Firstly Shoemaker (presumably pronounced like Schumacher) is a popular Jewish name. Secondly, the book came with a free book mark which advertised the Jewish Quarterly Review! Grin
  • New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #43 - December 24, 2012, 09:39 PM

    Quote
    Secondly, the book came with a free book mark which advertised the Jewish Quarterly Review!



    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #44 - December 24, 2012, 09:48 PM

    ^ Grin Cheesy I love it!
  • New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #45 - January 03, 2013, 07:44 PM

    Ok I got this book and I can barely put it down it is so compelling.  Afro

    I am up to chapter 3.

    It has a very good summary of all of the earliest sources on Islam and Muhammad from the First Century of the Arabian Era. Most of them are by Christians and pretty much all of them are under the impression that Muhammad was still alive during the invasion of Palestine.

    The most fascinating one is a recent discovery of correspondence between Umayyad Caliph Umar II and Byzantine Emperor Leo. The discovery and reconstruction of this letter is simply fascinating. If i remember correctly, the original letter from Umar II was lost, but parts of it were quoted in Leo's reply. Recently an Almajiado language document from Islamic Spain was compared with Emperor Leo's letter and it was found that when the Almajiado alphabet was put back into Arabic characters, parts of it matched almost perfectly with the parts of Umar's letter that had been quoted by Leo, so from that it was discovered that the Almajiado document is actually a preserved copy of Umar's original letter. Kudos to whoever made that discovery.  Afro

    Anyway in that letter, Umar II casually refers to Muhammad as leading the conquest of Palestine. This was all long before Ibn Ishaq wrote his Sirah which firmly established the death of Muhammad at Medina in 632 AD.
  • New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #46 - January 03, 2013, 07:56 PM

    Interesting. Does it say why they wanted to conquer Palestine?

    And by the way, does it say what the Palestinians thought about being invaded?  grin12

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #47 - January 03, 2013, 08:01 PM

    To spread Islam of course, and/or to control the holy land.
  • New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #48 - January 03, 2013, 08:04 PM

    Well yes, but there has been speculation that Muhammed was expecting the end of the world in his lifetime, and wanted to have control of Jerusalem before the big event. No mention of anything like that?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #49 - January 03, 2013, 08:16 PM

    Yep, that is what the book is about I believe, but I'm not really up to that part yet.
  • New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #50 - February 25, 2013, 04:31 PM

    Finally finished this book.

    The main thrust of the argument is that Muhammad was still alive 2 years after his supposed death, when the Arabs invaded Palestine. However, the proof provided thus far is vague and unconvincing. There are references to someone leading the Arabs, but it could very well have been Abu Bakr or any other Khalifah, not necessarily Mo himself........On the plus side, the introduction is a marvel of disinterested study and clearly displays that it is not simply an attack on muslim faith, but a considered and meticulous examination using the same sorts of criteria that Biblical scholars regularly use.


    Yes that is a pretty fair summary. The book provides some evidence from both Islamic and non-Islamic sources that Muhammad was still alive during the invasion of Palestine, but it is conceivable that those sources simply made a mistake.

    What is more convincing is the other part of the argument, that Muhammad was a doomsday prophet, who actually believed that the end of the world was to happen very soon, possibly within his own lifetime. The evidence from the Quran that Muhammad was pre-occupied with doomsday is prolific, however there is nothing within the Quran that specifically gives a date to when the end of the world will come, only that it will come "soon". But "soon" is very subjective. So again not a killer blow. Though there is more evidence within the Hadiths (see below).

    What I found most interesting about the book was the author's skeptical approach to studying Muslim traditions and trying to determine what parts of the Quran and Hadiths are most likely to have originated from Muhammad himself. For example the author suggests that the rhyming style of the Quran was most likely added by later compilers when trying to fit all the different little bits of the Quran together, and the parts when the Quran seems to repeat itself is most likely the result of trying to compile various different versions of Muhammad's ramblings from different sources into a single source and scribes accidentally putting the same ramblings from Muhammad into different surahs.

    Shoemaker shows that the content of the Quran was still in flux as late as the Ummayad era as evidenced by the Quranic inscriptions on the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem (inscribed during the time of Abd Al-Malik) that are apparently different from the corresponding passages in today's Quran:

    Quote
    The relative instability of the Qur’anic text even at this late date is substantiated by the thousands of variant readings preserved by early Islamic authors or recorded on coinage. Yet perhaps the most prominent and inescapable such evidence appears in the inscriptions of the Dome of the Rock: these citations from the Qur’an diverge from the 'ne varietur textus receptus', which had allegedly been codified almost forty years prior under Uthman, at least according to the traditionally accepted account. If the Quranic text had been already established for nearly four decades by this time, it is difficult to explain how or why this variant text came to be in-scribed on one of Islam’s most sacred and prominent monuments. To the contrary, it would seem that even in the centers of power, the codification of the textus receptus had not yet been achieved…


    Shoemaker argues that a good methodology to determine the authenticity of traditions in the Hadith is the use of what he calls ‘MATN’ analysis or the doctrine of embarrassment. Basically any hadith that contradicts key principles of the later established tradition or that paints Muhammad or the early community in an unfavorable light is likely to be very early or even authentic. Because traditions that are embarrassing or contradictory to established beliefs and practices are unlikely to have been invented in a setting where their content would have created dissonance.

    With regards to content in the Hadiths that talk about the end of the world coming within Muhammad’s lifetime, it is rather improbable that later generations would have dreamed up such pronouncements and placed them in Muhammad’s mouth, when they were so plainly contradicted by the flow of history; to the contrary, the persistence of traditions ascribing to Muhammad a belief in the Hour’s imminent arrival, despite their manifest inaccuracy, attests to the prominence of this idea within earliest Islam, confirming the evidence from the Qur’an. (Basically the fact that these traditions that Muhammad believed that the end of the world was rapidly approaching have survived at all is testament to how important the belief must have been in early Islam because it became impossible to totally cover up and "unremember" these mistakes)

    Two of the best examples of this that Shoemaker identifies are a hadith where Muhammad pointed to a young man and said “If this young man lives, the Hour will arrive before he reaches old age.” And an incident from Ibn Sa’d’s Tabaqat where he instructed the builders of the Mosque in Medina not to bother with constructing a proper roof because there was no time left  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy:

    Quote
    the builders were instructed not to bother with constructing a proper roof for the mosque, since the end was close at hand. Instead they were enjoined “to build the mosque in a provisional way, like the booth of Moses,” apparently a roof of thatch, because “God’s command” would soon arrive putting an end to life in general and, consequently, worship as well. The tradition’s omission from many standard collections is readily understandable, as Kister observes: “the Day of Judgment did not come in the days of the Prophet and there was no reason to quote a tradition which stated clearly that the Prophet believed that the s’na (the Hour) would happen in his own lifetime.” Moreover, it is extremely unlikely that believers in later generations would invent such a tradition and ascribe it to Muhammad, since it was so patently contradicted by the passing of time: the most probable explanation is that the tradition originated from Muhammad’s own eschatological teachings. (pg. 176)


    So all in all a very interesting read.  Afro
  • New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #51 - August 23, 2014, 08:13 AM

    Patricia Crone and Michael Cook have backed away from Hagarism now.


    It is not obvious that they have!  Do we need a list of Islamic urban myths?

    It looks to me as if they had some very nasty attacks from those who they thought would be supportive like Wansborough and have retrenched. 

    But I think the basic thesis is correct and Shoemaker is backing it.

    We are in the middle of a propaganda war.

    Quote
    I began along the path to this book many years ago, back in graduate school actually.  The focus of my training was on Christianity in the late ancient and early medieval Near East, but one of my good friends was an Islamicist who had initially started out in the history of Christianity.  We often discussed the differences in approach to studying the origins of the two traditions, and especially the relative absence of the “hermeneutics of suspicion” from study of early Islam.  This same friend first introduced me to a book by Patricia Crone and Michael Cook, Hagarism, a highly provocative and controversial study of formative Islam based on the non-Islamic sources.  This was the first work to identify the discrepancy in the sources concerning the timing of Muhammad’s death.  I was struck by the quality of the evidence for this tradition, particularly its “multiple, independent attestation” in a variety of sources: such evidence is the “gold standard” of historical Jesus studies.  I initially intended to write a brief article noting the apparent quality of this evidence when viewed from another discipline.  But the article grew, and before long, I realized that I was writing a book.




    http://rorotoko.com/interview/20120424_shoemaker_stephen_on_death_prophet_end_muhammad_life_begin_islam/?page=2

    And would people please read Cooke and Crone before repeating myths?

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/27096936/Hagarism-The-Making-of-the-Islamic-World

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • New book on beginnings of Islam by Stephen J. Shoemaker
     Reply #52 - August 25, 2017, 08:31 PM

    pdf of the book: http://docshare01.docshare.tips/files/26639/266395254.pdf
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