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 Topic: Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters

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  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #120 - September 10, 2017, 01:26 PM

    There is no moral equivalence between neo-Nazis and the people who oppose them.

    Anyone who feels otherwise should consider for a moment the likely background of most of this forum's members.

    Clear enough?


    I certainly didn't put forward the groups are the same.

    I was curious as it wasn't directed at anyone so seemed odd.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #121 - September 10, 2017, 01:37 PM

    I have recently adopted the view that these people should be left to their own devices, and that we should either ignore them or stand up to them (verbally, of course). That being said, I respect the mods and understand why you won't allow them to have a voice over here. The people who keep suggesting that we be nice to them and engage in open debate to stop their bigotry from spreading have not been in our shoes. They're not the ones who are the targets of these neo-Nazis as people of colour (which most of us are). Additionally, we as ex-Muslims end up getting associated with the far-right all too often, as they keep hovering around us for the sake of their agendas, no need to add neo-Nazis to the mix. This is the despite the fact that the majority of us want nothing to do with these people.


    There are more options besides nice talk and violence. Also keep in mind a lot of the violence I am talking about is not actually directed at Neo-Nazis but anyone that the attacker label as a Nazi or white supremist be it Republican, conservative, half-Japanese.... etc.

    Victimhood does not granted a legal status to attack people in return.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #122 - September 10, 2017, 02:33 PM

    Of course there are more options, and banning them is one. I was talking about the recent decision to ban these people and those who defend them, and why I support the mod's decision even though this may not necessarily be something I would do. I don't think that anyone is encouraging violence, just opposing the notion that the people who oppose the neo-Nazis (albeit through extreme measures) are just as bad as them.

    It all depends on the situation and I wouldn't label anyone a neo-Nazi without clear evidence, but it's clear who the people who marched in Charlottesville were. If I was marching with people who were waving swastikas, chanting "the Jews will never replace us" and had beaten a young Black man to a pulp (not that I would ever be accepted in those circles), I would feel too uncomfortable to stay.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #123 - September 10, 2017, 04:43 PM

    I'm looking at this from the other side of the Atlantic so I probably don't get everything that's going on. It does look to me that there's a wider alliance on the U.S. right that includes people who aren't necessarily neo-nazis, fascists or out and out racists, but are willing to associate with them and give them a platform. This probably includes people who were at Charlottesville. It's a sign of ideas and talking points from the far right going mainstream and influencing a wider public. The whole anti-antifa discourse looks quite strange from over here, partly because, unlike the U.S., it isn't mainstream. I've no wish to link directly to far right sites but this image search might give an idea of where it comes from: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=anti%20antifa&FORM=BILH1
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #124 - September 10, 2017, 08:16 PM

    The far right has always had an influence on the wider public. Racialism, conservative socioeconomics, nativism, etc. are all part of a wider brew, that is constantly reinforced by ostentatious far right rhetoric and propaganda. The extent that it catches hold in white circles overall is directly correlated to their overall economic circumstances. It's a simple matter of incentives influencing behavior.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #125 - September 11, 2017, 10:26 PM

    Report from Patriot Prayer rally in Vancouver, Washington: https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/sep/11/washington-vancouver-portland-rally-protest
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #126 - September 12, 2017, 02:31 PM

    2 recent WSJ articles on this fraught topic:

    First by Alan Dershowitz Harvard Law Professor (and Jewish) contrasting US Fascists and Antifa:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-hard-right-and-hard-left-pose-different-dangers-1505073662

    Second on the Southern Poverty Law Center.  This group beloved by the likes of Apple CEOs and megastars like Clooney has assets to the tune of several hundred million.   A recent Washington Free Beacon article detailed offshore investments (a big no no for legal charities), and a mere $60,000 spent on case work in 2015.   They have lately been active in smearing conservatives as racists.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-its-like-to-be-smeared-by-the-southern-poverty-law-center-1505171221?mod=nwsrl_commentary_u_s_&cx_refModule=nwsrl#cx_testId=16&cx_testVariant=ctrl&cx_artPos=9




  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #127 - September 12, 2017, 06:56 PM

    The far right has always had an influence on the wider public. Racialism, conservative socioeconomics, nativism, etc. are all part of a wider brew, that is constantly reinforced by ostentatious far right rhetoric and propaganda. The extent that it catches hold in white circles overall is directly correlated to their overall economic circumstances. It's a simple matter of incentives influencing behavior.


    Conservative socioeconomics is not far right wing.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #128 - September 12, 2017, 06:58 PM



    Stopped reading at "Alt-right" which was one sentence in. If the article can not be honest in the first sentence it has nothing to tell me. I can see the same news without the obvious agenda based bias.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #129 - September 12, 2017, 07:11 PM

    I've been justifiably chastized occasionally on CEMB for not taking time to understand the different Muslim sects and behavioural characteristics.

    Some (not all) on CEMB should take time to understand what is a conservative (sometimes called a classical liberal) vs just labelling everyone you disagree with as far-right, alt-right, racist etc etc.

    Polarization is reinforced by refusal to understand what your intellectual opponents really think and believe or refusal to think and discuss issues rather than just laziliy sitting back and name calling.

    End of today's rant.   Time for a glass of Barrolo.

  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #130 - September 12, 2017, 09:32 PM

    I can't even take the term "classical liberal" seriously anymore, given the context in which it is used.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #131 - September 13, 2017, 03:25 PM

    Some (not all) on CEMB should take time to understand what is a conservative (sometimes called a classical liberal) vs just labelling everyone you disagree with as far-right, alt-right, racist etc etc.


    A man who unselfconsciously parrots the moronic idea that "Cultural Marxism" is a real thing wants us all to be highly nuanced about his brand of conservatism now.

    Yeah, OK.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #132 - September 14, 2017, 12:31 AM

    I can't even take the term "classical liberal" seriously anymore, given the context in which it is used.


    What is your understanding of the term? To me it's ne of those things that different people seem to regard in different ways, so people end up thinking they're on about the same thing but really aren't.

    I never expected to hear someone come out of that museum singing praises for the contributions of white people before claiming their impression to be otherwise. .


    You'd be surprised at how normal it is. It's part of a tribal mind set. Could be race, could be ethnicity, could be nationality, could be gender, could be sexuality, could be culture or sub-culture, could be religion, etc. A feeling of being painted with the same brush. One of "us" did XYZ, "we" feel shitty, and being able to find one of "us" not doing, or even actively opposing XYZ, stands out sharply.

    Members of your group did a bad thing. Yeah, well these members here did a good thing, so there.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #133 - September 14, 2017, 09:20 AM

    ........ It's part of a tribal mind set. Could be race, could be ethnicity, could be nationality, could be gender, could be sexuality, could be culture or sub-culture, could be religion, etc. A feeling of being painted with the same brush. One of "us" did XYZ, "we" feel shitty, and being able to find one of "us" not doing, or even actively opposing XYZ, stands out sharply.

    Members of your group did a bad thing. Yeah, well these members here did a good thing, so there.

    well said QSE.... well said.....

    I wonder when we human beings that are filled this planet like ants leave that Ooold tribal mentality,  un-group themselves  from their group and give respect to individuals irrespective of their preference to skin color,  creed , race,  ethnicity,  nationality, religion, sexuality ..etc..etc..

    you know recently I learned lot  from dogs in dog parks...  If individuals watch and observe dogs in dog parks I think we can learn a lot from them .. they have wonderful fascinating fantastic social behavior  with new dogs ..old dogs.. their friends  and even puppies in the dog parks ..

    anyways how are you doing and what is up with this ??  finmad

    Quote
    One of "us" did  XYZ, "we" feel shitty


    who did that?  who did that to yeezevee??(YZ) ??  I have been called YZ umpteen times ..lol.

    with best wishes
     yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #134 - September 14, 2017, 10:55 AM

    I'm looking at this from the other side of the Atlantic so I probably don't get everything that's going on. It does look to me that there's a wider alliance on the U.S. right that includes people who aren't necessarily neo-nazis, fascists or out and out racists, but are willing to associate with them and give them a platform. This probably includes people who were at Charlottesville. It's a sign of ideas and talking points from the far right going mainstream and influencing a wider public. The whole anti-antifa discourse looks quite strange from over here, partly because, unlike the U.S., it isn't mainstream. I've no wish to link directly to far right sites but this image search might give an idea of where it comes from: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=anti%20antifa&FORM=BILH1


    If you bother to read the Alan Dershowitz article i posted a couple of days ago its the exact opposite.  Both left and right viewpoints have extremes.   For conservatism its nazism and for the left it's communism.   Conservatives and Republicans in the US constantly disavow white nationalism, nazism and the KKK and rightly so.   But Democrats and people generally to the left give communism a complete free pass.   How often do you see someone wearing an Adolf Hitler T and how often do you see Che Guevara or Mao Ts?   

  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #135 - September 14, 2017, 01:26 PM

    A man who unselfconsciously parrots the moronic idea that "Cultural Marxism" is a real thing wants us all to be highly nuanced about his brand of conservatism now.

    Yeah, OK.


    OK Toor .. how about we debate this like 2 reasonable adults?   How much research, reading, talk listening have I done about cultural marxism?  Not a lot.  I watched a 1 hour video and I have listened to several Jordan Peterson lectures on post-modernism, its role in the destruction of what used to be called 'Humanities' courses in many western universities and the links between post-modernism and the Frankfurt School who developed the set of Marxist arguments against cultural beliefs that they perceived as having prevented Marxism from taking over during WW1 as they had expected.   Gramsci was a leader of this group and many of them came to work in US universities during the 30s to escape Nazism.
    Herbert Marcuse was very influenced by this school of thought that wanted to deconstruct and dilute ideas about marriage, family, religion and patriotism.  These values were identified by the Frankfurt School as having prevented the proletarian soldiers fighting in WW1 from accepting communism and overthrowing their masters as communist agitators had fully expected them to.
    According to Peterson post-modernists deny the value of the individual and reasoned argument.  It is all about power to the post-modernists like Derida.  So the founding documents of the United States mean little as they were simply the product of a powerful European elite who imposed itself on indigenous cultures.   
    Good propaganda always contains a kernel of truth.   The problem is it stops when it has the argument it wants, discounts all other facts and considerations to offer a simple all encompassing explanations.   Freedom of speech is sometimes derided on CEMB but it is a core value for freedom to exist at all.   There is a very good article in the New York Review Of Books by the current head of the ACLU.   He explains why the ACLU went to court to argue for the Charlottesville march to take place.   ANTIFA and Black Block do not believe in the right to free speech - they follow the post-modernist (cultural marxist) argument that it is simply an exercise in projecting power by white supremacists.   You may observe the number of marxist flags, t-shirts and symbols favored by ANTIFA activists.
    In case you're wondering - I regard any racist ideology as flawed and dangerous for one simple reason.  Ideas do not belong exclusively to any single race, and anyone who believes they do is misinformed and potentially dangerous to others.   As a conservative I am not ideological, but rather .. pragmatic.  I flatter myself that I recognize good ideas as embodied in the US Constitution and Bill Of Rights, and believe they offer the best protection to every person in America - white, black, brown and yellow.    So my antennae may be over-tuned to what I see as a curltural dagger poised at the heart of things I value and support .... but I've stated my case.   The floor is yours.


  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #136 - September 14, 2017, 04:38 PM

    I'm at work, so, briefly:

    - Gramsci was never a member of the Frankfurt School, much less a leader;
    - Postmodernism's more commonly understood to be founded in Nietzsche and Heidegger, rather than Marx or the various Marxist (e.g. Frankfurt School, Gramscian) approaches to the question of ideology;
    - The Frankfurt School were not postmodernists, so whatever affinities you see between them bear some explaining;
    - Marriage, family, religion and patriotism are - to borrow Nietzsche's usage of the term - idols, and any study of ideology worth describing as such would be critical of them. So, for that matter, is free speech; the least analysis of the recent uses of 'free speech' as a call to rally Nazis by (quite literally, as it happens) should tell you that it is something to be instrumentalised, and that power dynamics matter the moment you step beyond abstractions and into the real world.

    - And, finally, since we're onto questions of visceral opinion: anyone administering a beatdown to Nazis has my full support.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #137 - September 14, 2017, 05:05 PM

    If you bother to read the Alan Dershowitz article i posted a couple of days ago its the exact opposite.  Both left and right viewpoints have extremes.   For conservatism its nazism and for the left it's communism.   Conservatives and Republicans in the US constantly disavow white nationalism, nazism and the KKK and rightly so.   But Democrats and people generally to the left give communism a complete free pass.   How often do you see someone wearing an Adolf Hitler T and how often do you see Che Guevara or Mao Ts?  

    I hadn't read it as I wasn't expecting much from it. I've read it now and I think it's a pretty hopeless article. It's not that I believe a conservative, or a liberal or whatever, can't write intelligently about the left, or that people on the left can't write badly about the right. It's just that this is a poor article. On Jeremy Corbyn for example:
    Quote
    In contrast, prominent American leftists, such as Noam Chomsky and even Bernie Sanders, supported the candidacy of British hard-left extremist Jeremy Corbyn, despite his flirtation with anti-Semitism.

    Do you think Corbyn is a 'hard-left extremist' or anti-semitic? I'd say he's fairly mainstream old Labour left and genuinely anti-racist. I also think there's a problem with anti-semitic ideas among some of his supporters and that there are issues with his past rather uncritical relationship to some Islamists. I'm not a supporter of Corbyn or Labour, but there's no reason to misrepresent him.

    When people on the left talk about communism they can mean different things. Where it's support for the Cuban regime or North Korea or any other legacy of Stalinism then I'd agree that it's completely misguided. Some other Marxists see it in terms of the original Bolsheviks being good and everything going wrong with the rise of Stalin. I'd say this is misguided too but in a different way. A lot of other, mostly younger, people on the left mean something different by communism. I'm getting old - I grew up with Communism meaning the system in Russia and China - and it still sounds strange to me to use the word to mean something else. I'm not sure it's a particularly good idea to try and reclaim it but that's their choice. I've no problem with criticism of apologetics for people like Che Guevara or Mao, but you shouldn't just assume that the people you disagree with actually have any sympathy for them.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #138 - September 14, 2017, 07:16 PM

    I'm too far away to pass judgement on Corbyn and I would agree that was a poor example for Dershowitz to quote.   At this distance there is no distance between Corbyn and Sanders that I can discern.   I do believe that any system that vilifies one group and exalts another, grants power to an un-elected elite who promise to provide equality of outcome is doomed to descend into dictatorship, chaos and violence.

    Economic communism was eventually so manifestly a monstrous failure responsible for almost 100 million dead that few European intellectuals could continue to argue for it by the late 60s.   That's why they had to switch to cultural issues.   Finding any group in society that could be used to attack the oppressor.  The birth of identity group politics.

    I admire your posts on Islamic history btw.  Most are above and beyond my capacity to really delve into.  At this point I've read some historical texts by Victorians encountering the Islamic world and several of the more recent major histories for the layman like Holland and Hoyland.   I would actually like to post some content and thoughts on Philip Jenkins 'Lost History Of Christianity' which, despite its title has quite a lot on Islam.

  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #139 - September 14, 2017, 07:33 PM

    I admire your posts on Islamic history btw.  Most are above and beyond my capacity to really delve into. 

    I take the approach of posting up anything that looks interesting regardless of how obscure or difficult it is, or whether I understand it myself. People can read what they like or what they can follow and disregard the rest. Only specialists would understand it all anyway.
    Quote
    At this point I've read some historical texts by Victorians encountering the Islamic world and several of the more recent major histories for the layman like Holland and Hoyland.   I would actually like to post some content and thoughts on Philip Jenkins 'Lost History Of Christianity' which, despite its title has quite a lot on Islam.

    I'd say start a thread on it in the religion section or post something on the Random Islamic History thread. If people disagree with what you're saying they can always respond.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #140 - September 14, 2017, 10:42 PM

    I'm at work, so, briefly:

    - Gramsci was never a member of the Frankfurt School, much less a leader;
    - Postmodernism's more commonly understood to be founded in Nietzsche and Heidegger, rather than Marx or the various Marxist (e.g. Frankfurt School, Gramscian) approaches to the question of ideology;
    - The Frankfurt School were not postmodernists, so whatever affinities you see between them bear some explaining;
    - Marriage, family, religion and patriotism are - to borrow Nietzsche's usage of the term - idols, and any study of ideology worth describing as such would be critical of them. So, for that matter, is free speech; the least analysis of the recent uses of 'free speech' as a call to rally Nazis by (quite literally, as it happens) should tell you that it is something to be instrumentalised, and that power dynamics matter the moment you step beyond abstractions and into the real world.

    - And, finally, since we're onto questions of visceral opinion: anyone administering a beatdown to Nazis has my full support.


    Correct Toor.  I conflated Gramsci and Adorno because it has been several months since I watched the video on cultural marxism.   Of course the Frankfurt school were not self-consciously post-modernist since the term had not been invented or applied at that time.   They were plain and simple Marxists looking for a new strategy - which the post-modenists eventually provided.   Many articles link Gramsci and the Frankfurt School - as fellow travellers who thought similarly and were working to solve the same challenge:  the destruction of Western Civilization.   What Peterson and others are claiming is that the founding father of post-modernist theory: Derida was a marxist who morphed into post-modernism as a way to achieve marxist ends.      I've never read Neitsche, and so far no-one I've listened to has made any connection of Neitsche and post-modernism.  In fact Peterson is quite a fan of Neitsche and argues that he has been greatly misunderstood.   Neitsche will have to wait a while.

    Peterson also recommends this book on Post-Modernism by Stephen Hicks which is a free audio-book on youtube.   

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQcNjHNXnEE

    Its 6 hours plus worth of listening but I will listen it thru.   Just listened to Hicks define Modernism - which the post-modernists are consciously rejecting and seeking to replace.   Therefore helpful in defining post-modernism.   Modernist founding fathers are Locke, Bacon and Descartes.   Simply put modernism is the enlightenment belief in the individual, reason, liberal democracy and science.   Modernism replaced European medievalism - which had run from approximately 400 CE to 1400 CE.   From what I can tell most on CEMB are as attuned and reliant on these foundations of western civ, that post-modernism derides, as I am.

    Sorry you seem to want to throw the free speech baby out with the fascist bath water.   Big mistake.   And your heroes in ANTIFA are beating down conservatives most of the time as far as I can see.   God, family and the nation along with faith in the individual is where I'm at.   But I'll be sure to tell my wife I idolize her tonight - I think she'll be pleased!

  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #141 - September 15, 2017, 05:35 AM

    Modernism also rejected the certainty of Enlightenment thinking.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #142 - September 16, 2017, 06:58 PM

    Conservative socioeconomics is not far right wing.


    I'd say the practice of making the rich richer using government power is certainly right wing. Corporatism is a key idea in fascism.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #143 - September 16, 2017, 07:04 PM

    Freedom of speech is sometimes derided on CEMB but it is a core value for freedom to exist at all.


    Have the decency to show some evidence for your accusations.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #144 - September 16, 2017, 08:18 PM

    Many articles link Gramsci and the Frankfurt School - as fellow travellers who thought similarly and were working to solve the same challenge:  the destruction of Western Civilization.   

    Oh look, it's the huge fucking tell. Whatever can it mean?

    What Peterson and others are claiming is that the founding father of post-modernist theory: Derida was a marxist who morphed into post-modernism as a way to achieve marxist ends.      I've never read Neitsche, and so far no-one I've listened to has made any connection of Neitsche and post-modernism.  In fact Peterson is quite a fan of Neitsche and argues that he has been greatly misunderstood.   Neitsche will have to wait a while.

    Do yourself a favour and read Derrida as well, because your guru clearly hasn't bothered.

    Peterson also recommends

    Nah. If the following is what your recommendation leaves you with:

    Quote
    Simply put modernism is the enlightenment belief in the individual, reason, liberal democracy and science.   Modernism replaced European medievalism - which had run from approximately 400 CE to 1400 CE.   

    it's very hard to take seriously.

    Sorry you seem to want to throw the free speech baby out with the fascist bath water.   Big mistake.   

    Free speech is a concept, an ideal; like any such, it is open to instrumentalisation by the unscrupulous. Fascists pull this trick often enough; to paraphrase Sartre, they are prone to repeated acts of bad faith because their adversaries believe in words and they don't, as their aim is intimidation and not the exercise of rigorous argument. Concede there and you make it easier to concede anywhere else.

    God, family and the nation along with faith in the individual is where I'm at.   

    So naturally, you came to a website run for and by atheists, not a small number of whom have seen abuses of family and nation up close and personal-like. Gotcha.

    But I'll be sure to tell my wife I idolize her tonight - I think she'll be pleased!

    If that's what it takes.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #145 - September 16, 2017, 11:00 PM

    On the subject of free speech and fascism, an urban75 thread on Stormfront being taken down:

    https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/white-supremacist-chatroom-stormfront-taken-offline.354104/

  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #146 - September 17, 2017, 03:03 AM

    Interesting where they ended up.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #147 - September 17, 2017, 08:43 AM

    I'd say the practice of making the rich richer using government power is certainly right wing.


    It is hardly right wing at all. Heck look at Clinton. She would be right wing as she has done the same.

    Do not confuse politicians and their tripe with what people believe.


    Quote
    Corporatism is a key idea in fascism.


    Corporatism of a certain type is but not the general idea. I think you are confusing it with Corporatocracy.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #148 - September 18, 2017, 12:07 AM

    I don't consider the Clinton's to be left wing. Being a member of the Democratic party doesn't just give one a liberal label and carte blanche to do whatever economically under its auspices. It's a big part of why Hillary couldn't win presidential elections.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #149 - September 18, 2017, 09:55 PM

    She is left of center as far as US politics go. She is no centrist.

    Liberal does not mean left-wing.
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