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 Topic: Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters

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  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #60 - August 19, 2017, 01:40 AM
    Quote from: three on August 19, 2017, 12:08 AM
    Funny. I was just talking about North Carolina.


    North Carolina
     001_wub

  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #61 - August 19, 2017, 04:15 PM
    Quote from: zeca on August 18, 2017, 09:20 AM
    From the link above:


    Thanks. Now citizens, not people from anywhere, get a petition going and submit it to the government. Not commit open violence, vandalism and general lawlessness.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #62 - August 19, 2017, 04:23 PM
    Quote from: three on August 18, 2017, 11:19 AM
    I don't think you get it. I am absolutely interested in shutting down hate and calls for race wars. Absolutely. The citizens opposing Nazism are not calling for war as the Nazis are. They are calling for an end to racism and hate.


    Problem a part of the counter-protest movement are committed to violence. There is no need to embrace those people to oppose supremacy   

    Quote
    I am talking about the rise of white nationalism on a military base in the South, opposed openly only by a local SHARP crew. I saw the whole thing from start to finish.
    The locals do not want Nazis there.


    You never mentioned that before.

    Quote
    I do not know why you are going on and on about beatings when I have clearly stated that the Nazis were shooting people and causing fatalities and one sucking chest wound. I don't think the SHARPs managed to get in an effective beating on a Nazi at all. There was a lot of campaigning, a lot of yelling, some truces on occasion, and only the POC were shot.


    My point was about political violence and attacking people for no actual crime.

    Quote
    You said the Nazis are here because they are feeding off of antifa.


    They are just as antifa feeds off of "Nazis" Both have ideologies that are opposes to each other.

    Quote
    I said, no.


    In that you are wrong.

    Quote
    They were here before. I saw them. They don't need anyone to feed off of, as they feed off of their own hate and they seek out violence, instigate violence, and have done so historically even from positions of power in the South, as their ideology was tolerated and their membership in violent racist orgs (like KKK) was accepted and often their social outlet. 
    We are not dealing with a peaceful organization. We are dealing with violent people, who typically come ready to commit fatalities. Antifa out of towners, for all their criminal tendencies, do not pack heat.


    Wrong again. Antifa dates back to the KPD of Germany. Communism is against racism as it is divisive. Having a group such as supremacists is just a target for part of their ideology. 

    Quote
    Nazis are not moderates, either. 


    Oxymoron really. Nazis are extremist just as communists are.

    Quote
    It would be fantastic if we could stop violence. But it seems we have people gearing up for it, and they want more. Antifa does not have a long term fantasy about wiping out other races. Nazis do.


    That is because people are giving a pass to one group's political violence.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #63 - August 19, 2017, 04:26 PM
    Quote from: asbie on August 18, 2017, 03:41 PM
    If the statues are taken down, then in your mind it will be because of a tyranny of the majority without reference to fact. But when the statues were put up, it was precisely because of a tyranny of a majority without reference to fact.


    If taken down via mob rule, protests and violence then yes. If done by petition by the citizens that is different.

    Quote
    In a perfect world I'm sure you would be the main arbiter of what goes up and what comes down, but we don't live in that world for better or worse.


    Yawn.. Nope. Just use the democrat system that exists rather than rioting and vandalism.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #64 - August 19, 2017, 04:32 PM
    Quote from: three on August 19, 2017, 01:28 AM
    http://www.snopes.com/2017/08/17/are-antifa-and-the-alt-right-equally-violent/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social

    ...."Announce an event that’s going to piss everyone who has common sense off, something so outrageous it’s going to piss 99 percent of the population off, then when someone gets on Twitter [and threatens them], send out a press release saying, “we can’t practice our free speech rights because of leftist violence.” Then show up anyway. They have canceled so many rallies that they showed up at anyway and still rallied. The “threat of leftist violence” means they need to wear body armor and bring weapons. If it’s an open carry state they’ll have [firearms]. If it’s not an open carry state they’ll bring firecrackers and sticks.

    And then when someone… pushes them or spits on them, they’ll use that as an excuse to strike out. Then the leftists will strike out, and the media won’t know who’s who." The important distinction, he said, is that “the leftists aren’t organizing the protests.” They’re just responding to them. Sepulvado added...


    Except Antifa's actions go beyond just fascism and tars many that are not fascists. That does not legitimize violence by the Nazi's. It just feeds their propaganda and paranoia. Something which Antifa has no issues doing. Hence why violence is going to rise. Antifa will lose that battle. Stop the idea of alliances by conveniences.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #65 - August 19, 2017, 04:46 PM
    Quote from: ibn Bilal on August 18, 2017, 10:18 AM
    Come on, man. You're putting the onus on me (rhetorical me, though I did grow up terrified of confederate symbolism) to recreate an entire mythology of a nation and to rededicate a symbol that was used to intimidate and supress my family, all to save a fucking statue? Fuck the statue.


    No not you. I used you as generalization. I was pointing out you are emotionally invested as much as supremacist are. Neither of you are objective. Hence why victims are not part of any jury. There is a right way and wrong way to accomplish change. I am against mob rule, riots and demand. I want people to use the system that is established for change.

    Quote
    No, not all.  But many absolutely do. Why do you think it is the neo nazis and white nationalists who are fighting to preserve these symbols? They are their symbols. Why do you think Dylann Roof wrapped himself in Robert E Lee's battle flag? I am southern born and raised, as I said earlier. I have first hand experience of what that confederate flag represents. I saw these things with my own two eyes. Robert E Lee's flag flying over billboards that say "home of the KKK" or on shops with overtly racist language plastered on the walls. We're dealing with actual White Supremacists here, bogart. Just because you don't understand the symbolism doesn't mean it's not there.


    I understand how people can view the statue as a symbol. I can understand how people change their views of symbols. Take Lenin for example. At one point his statues were icons created to be positive. Decades later that view changed.

    Quote
    Again, just because you fail to (won't) see the very thinly veiled symbolism doesn't mean it's not there. The monuments proliferated in front of courthouses in 10's and 20's when Jim Crow laws were enacted and in the 1960's when blacks were challenging Jim Crow in the judicial system. There were also, as is linked in this thread, monuments that "faced north" symbolizing a continuation of the fight. These aren't civil war monuments, they are Jim Crow monuments.


    No I see it. I just acknowledge that not everyone has such a black/white dynamic view of all things decades later.

     
    Quote
    Except the Lincoln Memorial is literally dedicated to the saving of the Union. Like, literally, the belief that "all men are created equal" is engraved in its stone. Literally.


    Which is part mythology if you actually look at Lincoln views. Also it can be viewed as pro-federalism as in a concentration of power in a central authority. That is something many do oppose.

    Quote
    So, to my point, the monuments are symbols to two wildly different ideas.


    There are other views such as opposition to federalism. You talk only about two views as if those are the only two views that exist. In that you are wrong. Go look at Rice's view points.

  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #66 - August 19, 2017, 07:04 PM
    Quote from: bogart on August 19, 2017, 04:23 PM
    Problem a part of the counter-protest movement are committed to violence. There is no need to embrace those people to oppose supremacy   

    You never mentioned that before.

    My point was about political violence and attacking people for no actual crime.

    They are just as antifa feeds off of "Nazis" Both have ideologies that are opposes to each other.

    In that you are wrong.

    Wrong again. Antifa dates back to the KPD of Germany. Communism is against racism as it is divisive. Having a group such as supremacists is just a target for part of their ideology. 

    Oxymoron really. Nazis are extremist just as communists are.

    That is because people are giving a pass to one group's political violence.


    Again I state: there was no antifa whatsoever in Chapel Hill North Carolina in the 1990s. There was no opposition to the Nazis/KKK in that vicinity until after the murder of two people of color, and the only local pushback was from SHARPs and their few supporters.  Yes I did mention that white supremacy was rising in this area at that time, that is what I have been talking about, this is what Nazis/KKK are and what they do. This is why the Army reformed it's policies on memberships in civilian orgs in the 90s. Because of this incident and the surrounding shit storm of criticism. This is mostly in Cumberland County, next to the KKK HQ in NC.
    There was a huge pass given to white supremacists in this country for hundreds of years. A free pass, and they had no opposition. To claim that they espouse violence solely as a reaction to antifa is wrong. To claim that they rise in reaction to antifa is wrong.
    They have been here far longer than KPD existed. KKK predates that org by at least three generations.
    Their existence and their origins predate antifa and are not about antifa.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #67 - August 19, 2017, 07:07 PM
    Quote from: bogart on August 19, 2017, 04:46 PM
    No not you. I used you as generalization. I was pointing out you are emotionally invested as much as supremacist are. Neither of you are objective. Hence why victims are not part of any jury. There is a right way and wrong way to accomplish change. I am against mob rule, riots and demand. I want people to use the system that is established for change.




    It is ridiculous to expect that more than half our country needs to step away from the table because they are emotionally invested victims. We need to include POC, not exclude them because they are affected.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #68 - August 20, 2017, 08:36 AM
    Quote from: bogart on August 19, 2017, 04:23 PM
    Wrong again. Antifa dates back to the KPD of Germany.

    The Arditi del Popolo were earlier.
    Which side are you on?
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #69 - August 20, 2017, 11:26 AM
    This article gives some background on the erection of Confederate statues in Charlottesville:

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history/2017/06/how_charlottesville_s_confederate_statues_helped_decimate_the_city_s_historically.html
    Which side are you on?
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #70 - August 20, 2017, 12:46 PM
    Facebook post on non-violent protest and Antifa at Charlottesville:

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=288035958271449&id=100011951417392
    Which side are you on?
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #71 - August 20, 2017, 05:42 PM
    An alternative approach in Boston yesterday:
    Quote
    This is Imani, from CT. She just escorted Trump supporters through a crowd as a situation escalated. Here's why in her words:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/steveannear/status/898949729362554880
    Which side are you on?
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #72 - August 20, 2017, 06:14 PM
    That's a great idea, actually.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #73 - August 20, 2017, 07:35 PM
     three  says  "That's a great idea,  "
     
    Aryana   ... you too...  you go girl

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeQL4IJKGIM

    fukall  weird bearded baboons with sounds of beautiful songs .,
     
    ""we all must realize"

    Those days were different.,  rogues used to get away with unpardonable criminal activities and on top of that they used to take support from so-called god..dickhead books....  Those days are over.,  Now we know well "As human beings evolve the so-called Morality also will evolve "
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #74 - August 20, 2017, 07:51 PM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNNHpNXokK0

    indeed freedom of speech is a  worthy cause irrespective who says what .... Oh well life goes on .. RIP Dick

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDTeRorHa3w
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #75 - August 22, 2017, 04:20 AM
    Quote from: three on August 19, 2017, 07:07 PM
    It is ridiculous to expect that more than half our country needs to step away from the table because they are emotionally invested victims. We need to include POC, not exclude them because they are affected.


    I never said to step away from the table. I was pointing out as a victims are not the ones to determine a course of action. That was in reference to protests, vandalism, destruction of property, etc based on emotional outcry. If anyone is a resident of a city with such a statue form a petition or whatever is your local equivalent for a vote or action by the mayor/city. Let the citizens decided. You know... Democracy not mob rule.

    People are now unlawfully removing statues because of said emotional outcry. Remember Trump pointed out a slippery slope. It is starting to come true. People want the statues that are positive mythology removed like Founding Fathers. Some people are vandalizing statues of Catholic Saints. Now people are using their own moral compass to decide what is good or not as a mob or individual regardless of being citizens or voting on the issue.

  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #76 - August 22, 2017, 04:23 AM
    Quote from: zeca on August 20, 2017, 08:36 AM
    The Arditi del Popolo were earlier.


    The KPD was founded in 1918 as well.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #77 - August 22, 2017, 04:46 AM
    Quote from: bogart on August 22, 2017, 04:20 AM
    I never said to step away from the table. I was pointing out as a victims are not the ones to determine a course of action. That was in reference to protests, vandalism, destruction of property, etc based on emotional outcry. If anyone is a resident of a city with such a statue form a petition or whatever is your local equivalent for a vote or action by the mayor/city. Let the citizens decided. You know... Democracy not mob rule.

    People are now unlawfully removing statues because of said emotional outcry. Remember Trump pointed out a slippery slope. It is starting to come true. People want the statues that are positive mythology removed like Founding Fathers. Some people are vandalizing statues of Catholic Saints. Now people are using their own moral compass to decide what is good or not as a mob or individual regardless of being citizens or voting on the issue.




    You said that a POC was as invested as a white supremacist, and hence this is why victims are not on juries- that implies that victims should not be involved. POC are a huge portion of our population and ought to be involved in the decision making, regardless of their victim status. No one asked them for their opinion when the statues went up, trust me when I tell you that there was no vote on that.

    The mayor of Charlottesville had decided to remove this statue and the supremacists showed up to dispute that decision, from as far away as the West Coast. The locals had already decided to take it down. Now the statues look like rallying cries for Nazis. No one wants that. The symbology of these statues is now altered.

    Your positive mythology is not positive to everyone, and has never been.


    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #78 - August 22, 2017, 12:35 PM
    Quote from: three on August 22, 2017, 04:46 AM
    You said that a POC was as invested as a white supremacist, and hence this is why victims are not on juries- that implies that victims should not be involved. POC are a huge portion of our population and ought to be involved in the decision making, regardless of their victim status. No one asked them for their opinion when the statues went up, trust me when I tell you that there was no vote on that.


    No I didn't. I just pointed out those emotionally invested do not determine action. Again no considering I was talking about riots, protests and demands. Neither get to determine action because they say so.  I used the victim and jury example to hammer that home. Hence why I pointed out legal ways

    Quote
    The mayor of Charlottesville had decided to remove this statue and the supremacists showed up to dispute that decision, from as far away as the West Coast.


    Yes I know. However look at Durham. The protestors took the law into their own hands. Do you understand now? One was the right way by legal means. The other was a mob high on emotions.

    White supremacist coming out of states and country shows how little support they have

     
    Quote
    The locals had already decided to take it down. Now the statues look like rallying cries for Nazis. No one wants that. The symbology of these statues is now altered.


    They can protest all they want. When they cross that line into political violence they should be crushed by police force.

    Quote
    Your positive mythology is not positive to everyone, and has never been.


    I was talking about Jefferson and Washington monuments in that case. Sure it is not positive to all. However those that do not view them as positive and/or want such places defunded or removed are not the sole arbiters of action to take. Their argument is that since morality has changed everything that does not match that morality has to go.  No one can stand that test as morality is inter-subjective. If the constitution was created by racists and slave owned should it not be ripped up as well? After all 1 moral blackmark undermines everything good people have done. Should WW2 statues and monument comes down due to the military's view of segregation and combat units, how society was back then? The Iwo Jima monument for example?

    The floodgate has opened.


  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #79 - August 22, 2017, 03:43 PM
    Democracy Now on the removal of Confederate monuments
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FkRCFogDmGU
    Which side are you on?
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #80 - August 22, 2017, 10:05 PM
    Quote from: bogart on August 19, 2017, 04:26 PM
    If taken down via mob rule, protests and violence then yes. If done by petition by the citizens that is different.

    Yawn.. Nope. Just use the democrat system that exists rather than rioting and vandalism.


    Well in reality, both democratic protest and "street action" happen simultaneously in the cases of controversial changes like this. Ultimately though, it is legal orders that bring down the monument, based on referendums, or petitions, so essentially forms of due process.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #81 - August 23, 2017, 05:51 PM

    https://mobile.twitter.com/arawnsley/status/899003405565386757/video/1 https://mobile.twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/899013255506649089?lang=en
    Which side are you on?
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #82 - August 28, 2017, 06:39 PM
    Quote from: asbie on August 22, 2017, 10:05 PM
    Well in reality, both democratic protest and "street action" happen simultaneously in the cases of controversial changes like this. Ultimately though, it is legal orders that bring down the monument, based on referendums, or petitions, so essentially forms of due process.


    Sure. However it has gone beyond that. A whole city in Washington got rid of schools and streets dedicated to a person that contributed millions to the community because the last name is Lynch. The person never lynched anyone. But you know feeling of morons mean something. That was done democratically but for the wrong reasons. Which means just mob-rule and tyranny of the majority along with weak-knee politicians.. As I said it opened a flood gate in which emotion rule the day and nothing more.



  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #83 - August 28, 2017, 08:31 PM
    Quote from: bogart on August 28, 2017, 06:39 PM
    Sure. However it has gone beyond that. A whole city in Washington got rid of schools and streets dedicated to a person that contributed millions to the community because the last name is Lynch. The person never lynched anyone.
    Quote
    But you know feeling of morons mean something. That was done democratically but for the wrong reasons. Which means just mob-rule and tyranny of the majority along with weak-knee politicians.. As I said it opened a flood gate in which emotion rule the day and nothing more.



    I would greatly appreciate Mr. Lynch story and any links on that dear  bogart
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #84 - August 29, 2017, 01:36 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on August 28, 2017, 08:31 PM


    I would greatly appreciate Mr. Lynch story and any links on that dear  bogart


    It was in Portland so wrong state. Pretty stupid and shows the weakness of democracy; stupid people can vote.

    http://www.oregonlive.com/education/index.ssf/2017/07/lynch_elementary_schools_will.html
    http://koin.com/2017/08/09/lynch-to-be-removed-from-names-of-2-schools/
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #85 - August 30, 2017, 01:12 AM
    In Washington DC for a few days to pay homage to the memorials and visit museums.

    Tomorrow I'm heading out to Monticello (Jefferson's home).  There are presentations offered on slavery on the Jefferson estate.   Interested to see how they deal with the whole Sally Hemmings issue.   This morning we (wife and I) failed to get into the newest museum:  The Museum of African American History and Culture.  We'll try again Thursday when you have to apply online at 6:30 am.

    My take is similar to Bogart's.  Some of the hundreds of monuments depicting Confederate leaders were erected in the 20th century for then current political purposes.   A decision to keep or remove each an every statue should be done with care and full local community involvement and discussion, and if necessary a local referendum by secret ballot- not by the mob acting self-righteously.

    Jefferson, Washington and Madison all owned slaves.   If that invalidates them as leaders and authors of the constitution we are inviting anarchy.  At a guess I would say around 95% of Americans would be passionately opposed to any such outcome.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #86 - August 30, 2017, 02:02 AM
    Quote
    The Museum of African American History and Culture.  We'll try again Thursday when you have to apply online at 6:30 am.


    Please do.  It's well worth it. Start at the bottom floor, at the year 1400. I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #87 - August 30, 2017, 11:13 AM
    Quote from: Unifier on August 30, 2017, 01:12 AM
    ..................Confederate leaders were erected in the 20th century for then current political purposes.   A decision to keep or remove each an every statue should be done with care and full local community involvement and discussion, and if necessary a local referendum by secret ballot- not by the mob acting self-righteously.

    Jefferson, Washington and Madison all owned slaves.   If that invalidates them as leaders and authors of the constitution we are inviting anarchy.  At a guess I would say around 95% of Americans would be passionately opposed to any such outcome.

    Unifier has some good points

    but dear Unifier., one must realize that  "those who do wrongs in their lives and correct their mistakes  on the way are different from those who continue to do the same mistakes and propagate them through their sociopolitical/warmongering methods for future generation to continue on the same wrong paths"   and we should be able to differentiate  these two types of people and give the credit to those who deserve.

    but I agree with you on this
    Quote
    A decision to keep or remove each an every statue should be done with care and full local community involvement and discussion, and if necessary a local referendum by secret ballot- not by the mob acting self-righteously.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #88 - August 31, 2017, 01:22 AM
    Yeez ... you'll have to connect some dots for me,  What connects Jefferson, Madison and Washington to 'sociological warmongerers' .. whoever they may be.
    More context please.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #89 - August 31, 2017, 05:45 PM
    Quote from: bogart on August 28, 2017, 06:39 PM
    Sure. However it has gone beyond that. A whole city in Washington got rid of schools and streets dedicated to a person that contributed millions to the community because the last name is Lynch. The person never lynched anyone. But you know feeling of morons mean something. That was done democratically but for the wrong reasons. Which means just mob-rule and tyranny of the majority along with weak-knee politicians.. As I said it opened a flood gate in which emotion rule the day and nothing more.


    That's politics, whether you agree with its end or not.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
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