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 Topic: Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters

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  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #30 - August 16, 2017, 04:10 PM

    well what is cooking here?  

    good/bad/ugly
    who is good...who is bad .
    when was he good
    and when did he became bad guy?

    I guess world works with Theory of Relativity  ..  any way I was reading the news   at http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/rajgauri-pawar-beats-einstein-stephen-hawking-high-iq-test-mensa-cheshire-a7722681.html

    it says  some 12 year old kid from Indian subcontinent   scored higher in an IQ test than Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking.  So the news some interviewer said .. "Oh You are Smarter than  Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking"

    ...and story goes on.,   but what   caught my eye is this comment of "Luna Lubin" under that news link

    Quote
    Einstein was a complete fraud and plagiarist and Hawkins believes everything came from nothing.

    So not much competition really
    .


    Well there goes the credit of  Einstein   and Hawkins  in to the dust...   do they deserve it?   may be...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #31 - August 16, 2017, 06:00 PM

    Seriously. The military is not a bastion of ethics nor a superior moral example. There is no need to tout their values as a reason to glorify those who would keep the institution of slavery.
    "The military" has their own territory where the rest of us cannot go. They have plenty of room to put up whatever statues they want to.


    No the military just acknowledges his accomplishments as a military leader and does not whitewash history because it upsets people.

    So when is Lincoln's monument coming down? After all he thought blacks were not due equal rights. He was willing to keep slavery around for the sake of the Union as per his own letters and a proposed peace treaty Or are you just focusing on the figure that upsets you more than principle? Washington's as well as he owned more than 6x the slaves Lee did and he bought his rather than inherited. After all he was a founding father while Lee wasn't.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #32 - August 16, 2017, 06:28 PM

    I’m sorry, Bogart, but your comparisons are flawed here. As I think you are at least beginning to acknowledge in your post, the men in question have legacies that have come to symbolize things beyond what they may have independently said, done, or believed in their lifetimes.

    It was not an uncommon sentiment during the period leading up to the civil war for Whites with an intellectual or moral conscious to recognize the faults in slavery while still supporting it in all practical ways. In fact, some of the most outspoken proponents of slavery made concessions to its evils while also deeming it necessary for Africans in particular, either because “providence” willed it, or because blacks were supposedly less intelligent and more naturally unruly and therefore worthy of subjugation, or because their alleged physical build and adaptation to the climate, disease and working conditions made them most suitable – happy, even, as some arguments went – to be enslaved.

    The “evil but necessary” arguments were often used to fuel public support for something that men in power with intellectual or moral conscious on both sides of the war could not ignore, but those arguments did not always drive their policies or actions. In many ways, I believe those arguments have done even more damage to the legacy of race in this country in that they have engrained stereotypes that linger on till this day.

    All of that, still, is a bit beside the point.

    The symbols of those men, in this case in the form of statues and/or flags, were not adopted for the sake of commemoration of any lived confederate history, but as representations of ideas. The bulk of those confederate statues, including the ones in Charlottesville and in Durham, were installed in the height of the Jim Crow era during the 1920s and 1930s. The resurgence of Robert E Lee's confederate battle flag as a cultural phenomenon occurred during the 40s, 50's, and 60's, during height of Civil Rights and integration movements. They had nothing to do with the defeated confederacy and everything to do with the sought continued subjugation of blacks and the perpetuation of Jim Crow.

    Similarly, Abraham Lincoln and the memorials dedicated to him were adopted as symbols of emancipation, unity, and democracy - regardless of what the man may have actually believed. It is important never to forget the importance of symbolism in the creation myth of a country, and it is especially important to recognize what people are actually standing for or attacking when they stand for or attack those symbols.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #33 - August 16, 2017, 06:52 PM

    No the military just acknowledges his accomplishments as a military leader and does not whitewash history because it upsets people.

    that is true when military leaders are NOT under the control of public elected leaders .. but I think in 21st century  US of A is NOT under military rule ., or am I wrong??
    Quote
    So when is Lincoln's monument coming down? After all he thought blacks were not due equal rights. He was willing to keep slavery around for the sake of the Union as per his own letters and a proposed peace treaty


    i am sure you know Mr. John Wilkes Booth  dear bogart



    would you like see his monument   in any public sphere of US of A dear bogart??  .. well you know the heroes of American confederate states lost the war.. So ideally I would suggest  a Museum for all those monuments and memorials  and huge library to explain their actions for children of US of A....

    what do you think?

    Quote
    Or are you just focusing on the figure that upsets you more than principle? Washington's as well as he owned more than 6x the slaves Lee did and he bought his rather than inherited. After all he was a founding father while Lee wasn't.


    That I agree and very good point you are raising., we need to  debate/discuss and fight on issues NOT on personalities ..  well it is good to learn about Mr.. Robert Edward  Lee

    http://www.startribune.com/ap-explains-how-robert-e-lee-went-from-hero-to-racist-icon/440192573/

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee#Lee.27s_views_on_slavery    

    http://www.newsweek.com/robert-e-lee-statue-charlottesville-donald-trump-white-nationalists-651208

    Quote
    Here's the recent Lee family's statement in its entirety:


    The events of the past weekend in Charlottesville were a terrible tragedy for America, for the state of Virginia and for us, the descendants of General Robert E. Lee. Our family extends our deepest condolences to the families who lost a loved one. We send our heartfelt sympathy to those who were injured, and pray for their recovery.

    General Lee's life was about duty, honor and country. At the end of the Civil War, he implored the nation to come together to heal our wounds and to move forward to become a more unified nation. He never would have tolerated the hateful words and violent actions of white supremacists, the KKK, or Neo Nazis.

    While the debate about how we memorialize figures from our past continues, we the descendants of Robert E. Lee decry in the strongest terms the misuse of his memory by those advancing a message of intolerance and hate. We urge the nation’s leaders as well as local citizens to engage in a civil, respectful and non-hateful conversation.

    As Americans and as human beings it is essential that we respect one another and treat others as we ourselves wish to be treated. As General Lee wrote in his diary, “the great duty of life is the promotion of the happiness and welfare of our fellow man.”

    Robert E. Lee V
    Great-great-grandson of General Robert E. Lee

    Tracy Lee Crittenberger
    Great-great-granddaughter of General Robert E. Lee

    that is what his great great Grand sons and  Great-great-granddaughter says., and I have to agree with them.

    We must realize racism and race problems are there all over the globe ., they are still there but  they were  more prevalent  in U S of A   all the way to that Mr.John F. Kennedy times.,     Lincoln  times were simply unimaginable and that was one reason Lincoln gave his life  ..

    anyways it is good to watch the mother that  32 year old  Heather Heyer

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btUukGE0efM

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #34 - August 16, 2017, 10:42 PM

    What the counter-protesters Trump despises were actually doing in Charlottesville last weekend
    Quote
    On Tuesday, after a weekend that included a white supremacist mowing down and killing a peaceful counter-protester in Charlottesville and Nazis marching on the University of Virginia with torches, the president of the United States stood in front of the American people and said, “What about the ‘alt-left’ that came charging at, as you say, the ‘alt-right’? Let me ask you this: What about the fact they came charging—that they came charging with clubs in their hands, swinging clubs? Do they have any problem? I think they do.”

    There were, as it turns out, a great number of Charlottesville locals present to witness the violence and lawlessness on display in this town—my town—last weekend. I asked local witnesses, many in the faith community, every one of whom was on the streets of Charlottesville on Saturday, whether there was a violent, club-wielding mob threatening the good people on team Nazi. Here’s what I heard back...

  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #35 - August 16, 2017, 10:48 PM

    Who are the antifa?
    Quote
    On Monday, President Trump capitulated to the popular demand that he distance himself from his comment that “many sides” were to blame in Charlottesville by explicitly denouncing white nationalism. “Racism is evil,” he appeared to grudgingly concede, “including the KKK, neo-Nazis and white supremacists.”

    A day later, however, Trump reversed course by clarifying that there were “very fine people” at the white power rally, while casting “blame on both sides” including the allegedly “alt-left” antifa.

    First bursting into the headlines when they shut down far-right provocateur Milo Yiannopoulos in February at the University of California at Berkeley, antifascists again captivated the public imagination by battling the fascists assembled at the “Unite the Right” white power rally in Charlottesville.

    But what is antifa? Where did it come from? ...

  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #36 - August 17, 2017, 02:06 AM

    I’m sorry, Bogart, but your comparisons are flawed here. As I think you are at least beginning to acknowledge in your post, the men in question have legacies that have come to symbolize things beyond what they may have independently said, done, or believed in their lifetimes.

    It was not an uncommon sentiment during the period leading up to the civil war for Whites with an intellectual or moral conscious to recognize the faults in slavery while still supporting it in all practical ways. In fact, some of the most outspoken proponents of slavery made concessions to its evils while also deeming it necessary for Africans in particular, either because “providence” willed it, or because blacks were supposedly less intelligent and more naturally unruly and therefore worthy of subjugation, or because their alleged physical build and adaptation to the climate, disease and working conditions made them most suitable – happy, even, as some arguments went – to be enslaved.

    The “evil but necessary” arguments were often used to fuel public support for something that men in power with intellectual or moral conscious on both sides of the war could not ignore, but those arguments did not always drive their policies or actions. In many ways, I believe those arguments have done even more damage to the legacy of race in this country in that they have engrained stereotypes that linger on till this day.

    All of that, still, is a bit beside the point.

    The symbols of those men, in this case in the form of statues and/or flags, were not adopted for the sake of commemoration of any lived confederate history, but as representations of ideas. The bulk of those confederate statues, including the ones in Charlottesville and in Durham, were installed in the height of the Jim Crow era during the 1920s and 1930s. The resurgence of Robert E Lee's confederate battle flag as a cultural phenomenon occurred during the 40s, 50's, and 60's, during height of Civil Rights and integration movements. They had nothing to do with the defeated confederacy and everything to do with the sought continued subjugation of blacks and the perpetuation of Jim Crow.

    Similarly, Abraham Lincoln and the memorials dedicated to him were adopted as symbols of emancipation, unity, and democracy - regardless of what the man may have actually believed. It is important never to forget the importance of symbolism in the creation myth of a country, and it is especially important to recognize what people are actually standing for or attacking when they stand for or attack those symbols.



    If people can manufacture nonsense about Lincoln and Washington do so for Lee. People are just not interested in doing so. They want to have their mythology because it is nice rather than actually look at what said people did and said. That is whitewashing of history because they are upset about said history. Perhaps it is time for a history wake up call on both sides yes? Lincoln was no angel. Perhaps it is time to teach people what the man was really like just like they should teach people what Lee was like.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #37 - August 17, 2017, 02:34 AM



    Using violence just because you do not like someone's views does not make it right. Reject both sides and oppose them. Arrest anyone that uses violence.

    Looks like no one read the history of Germany in which Communist and Nazis parties fought in the streets. Attacking neo-Nazi by ignoring the law is going to rally support for that group. NASDP did it. They let themselves be attacked then claimed victimhood. Police would ignore the Communists which pissed of the general population. The NASDP used that to gain popular support. "Look the government does nothing when Communist attack random people. We embrace law and order! We are with you!" Look at what happened after that. NASDP popularity jumps in two election to the point they were the majority. Learn from history, do not repeat it.

    The next 9 planned rallies need the nation-guard. Politicians are weak in the knees so will do nothing but flap their gums after the fact. Ring them with troops. Do not allow a single one to leave the protest area outside of strict designated areas. Arrest anyone laying in wait at these places and anyone not leaving via those areas. If counter-protesters try to interfere with the protest arrest them too. If the protesters try to attack the counter-protesters arrest them.

    Keep in mind which group is more likely to carry firearms. It is not antifa. Yet letting antifa attack people as if that is completely fine is going to cause people getting murdered by more than cars. People are going to be gunned down.

    I suggest people spend some time looking at liveleaks and youtube. You will see the supposed "good guys" randomly attacking people. Neither side is good here.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #38 - August 17, 2017, 12:03 PM

    So you are claiming that the murder in Charlottesville was caused by the antifa? Are you victim blaming? How in the world is the "antifa"responsible for a vehicle purposefully driving into a crowd. That is not any sort of self defense. Dude was in his car and he could leave- no one forced him to attack people on the street or the sidewalk.

    I was in Chapel Hill in 1995 when these same Nazis were killing citizens of color for sport, for protest against POC for existing. They were not pushed into it. No one was making them angry. It was the fault of the perps and the perps alone. Their violence is not anything new, and neither is their heat. They have always been the ones packing and shooting first and you are claiming their actions are dependent on those opposing them? Rephrase, man.

    You don't understand these people, and that might be a good thing.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #39 - August 17, 2017, 01:21 PM

    So you are claiming that the murder in Charlottesville was caused by the antifa?


    Hell no. I have watch a lot of videos. None to me suggest this guy was being attacked nor his car. It looks premeditated to me. Even if he was attacked previously he still went to his car, got in, started, drove to a location, aligned his car, built up speed and rammed into a huge crowd. His is a murder and a terrorist in my view.

    Quote
    Are you victim blaming?


    I have seen no evidence that any of the victims attack that guy. Even if they did as per the above he is still a murder and a terrorist.

    Quote
    How in the world is the "antifa"responsible for a vehicle purposefully driving into a crowd.


    Never said that. What I am saying is Antifa fully accepts the use of public violence as part of it's goals. They do not protest they confront people and attack them. They draw up battle-lines. They do it to anyone that disagrees with them, they do not even need to be white supremacists or Neo-Nazis. Disagreement means that people are fascists in their view. I am calling out a group committed to violent acts. They are part of the problem not the solution.

    Quote
    That is not any sort of self defense. Dude was in his car and he could leave- no one forced him to attack people on the street or the sidewalk.


    Never said it was.

    Quote
    I was in Chapel Hill in 1995 when these same Nazis were killing citizens of color for sport, for protest against POC for existing. They were not pushed into it. No one was making them angry. It was the fault of the perps and the perps alone. Their violence is not anything new, and neither is their heat. They have always been the ones packing and shooting first and you are claiming their actions are dependent on those opposing them?


    No just that these two group literally feed off each other. It creates a dangerous mixture that will explode into far more violence. Hence those two groups need to be kept separated with a zero tolerance policy. Many are just waiting for the chance to attack a Neo-Nazi or Antifa member. Pointing out both sides is not out of line. It is the moderate view. This does not mean the severity of their views are the same. It points out that actions on both side creates violence that needs to be crushed by overwhelming police action or the national-guard.


    Quote
    You don't understand these people, and that might be a good thing.


    No I understand them. They are using the NASDP playbook right now. Go look up one of the protest leaders latest video. He is crying and pointing out a legal march was attacked by an illegal counter-protest. He is using the law to show Antifa are lawless radicals. Besides the crying that is exactly what the NASDP did before 32. It resulting is people rallying to the NASDP as they claimed to represent law and order compared to a weak government and violent radicals. Now there are militias pledging security support for future marches. They want people divide over this one issues into only 1 of two camps. I am simply tell both groups to fuck off I will pick a 3rd option.

    You seem to be blind to the other side of violence. When two extremist groups that fundamental oppose each other meet there is going to be conflicts. Antifa has been attacking people long before this march because they are anti-capitalism communists, socialists and anarchists. Having Neo-Nazis around is a bonus.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #40 - August 17, 2017, 05:24 PM

    As people being on the loosing side does not mean they supported the ideas of that side 100%. Washington owned hundred of slaves yet I see no call to remove any of his monument nor removed from money.

    The military disagrees,


    First off, the military can disagree as they want. Certainly he should be studied as a general, from an academic standpoint, but the military doesn't get to write which are the heroes of our history. We the people do.

    The Civil War was centrally around slavery. States rights was an issue because of slavery. Why? Because the southern states weren't the only ones that cared about states rights however the war was ultimately fought along explicitly north/south lines, which while there were border states, it overall fell along the lines of how invested they were in the slave system. There's no two ways around this.

    Washington did not fight the British to explicitly uphold a slave system. That really wasn't the issue in question, and hence the whole equivalence is nonsensical. Keep in mind, I'm not arguing about which of the two was a more moral person, simply about their acceptability as a symbol with regards to their historical contexts.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #41 - August 17, 2017, 05:27 PM

    I’m sorry, Bogart, but your comparisons are flawed here. As I think you are at least beginning to acknowledge in your post, the men in question have legacies that have come to symbolize things beyond what they may have independently said, done, or believed in their lifetimes.

    It was not an uncommon sentiment during the period leading up to the civil war for Whites with an intellectual or moral conscious to recognize the faults in slavery while still supporting it in all practical ways. In fact, some of the most outspoken proponents of slavery made concessions to its evils while also deeming it necessary for Africans in particular, either because “providence” willed it, or because blacks were supposedly less intelligent and more naturally unruly and therefore worthy of subjugation, or because their alleged physical build and adaptation to the climate, disease and working conditions made them most suitable – happy, even, as some arguments went – to be enslaved.

    The “evil but necessary” arguments were often used to fuel public support for something that men in power with intellectual or moral conscious on both sides of the war could not ignore, but those arguments did not always drive their policies or actions. In many ways, I believe those arguments have done even more damage to the legacy of race in this country in that they have engrained stereotypes that linger on till this day.

    All of that, still, is a bit beside the point.

    The symbols of those men, in this case in the form of statues and/or flags, were not adopted for the sake of commemoration of any lived confederate history, but as representations of ideas. The bulk of those confederate statues, including the ones in Charlottesville and in Durham, were installed in the height of the Jim Crow era during the 1920s and 1930s. The resurgence of Robert E Lee's confederate battle flag as a cultural phenomenon occurred during the 40s, 50's, and 60's, during height of Civil Rights and integration movements. They had nothing to do with the defeated confederacy and everything to do with the sought continued subjugation of blacks and the perpetuation of Jim Crow.

    Similarly, Abraham Lincoln and the memorials dedicated to him were adopted as symbols of emancipation, unity, and democracy - regardless of what the man may have actually believed. It is important never to forget the importance of symbolism in the creation myth of a country, and it is especially important to recognize what people are actually standing for or attacking when they stand for or attack those symbols.


     Afro

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #42 - August 17, 2017, 06:15 PM

    interesting...... interesting discussion about race/racism race relations with  19th century people  vs 21th century racists

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBb9zwHXHYA


    Are you guys not thinking about allah/god controls ?? why think about future/race /racism  when everything is controlled by allah/god??   the fucker is responsible forall  bad things that happens to people ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #43 - August 17, 2017, 06:40 PM

    If people can manufacture nonsense about Lincoln and Washington do so for Lee. People are just not interested in doing so. They want to have their mythology because it is nice rather than actually look at what said people did and said. That is whitewashing of history because they are upset about said history. Perhaps it is time for a history wake up call on both sides yes? Lincoln was no angel. Perhaps it is time to teach people what the man was really like just like they should teach people what Lee was like.


    With that line of reasoning, you completely miss the point. Of course historians should continue to research and educate the public on the lives of historical figures, and I think that said history is fairly well established and available. But a preservation of the details of the lives of these men has never been solely what these symbols and monuments are about, especially as time has passed. Reducing the discussion to those details misses the broader point of this debate and its ramifications, as these symbols were installed after the fact in order to represent certain ideas.  They are not actual items of history from the period.

    Abraham Lincoln actually did sign the Emancipation Proclamation and Robert E Lee actually did lead the Confederate army which sought to uphold the slave system. Similarly, George Washington actually did lead the country through its independence. These men are, then, appropriate symbols of certain respective ideas and are known as such in this country.

    Let’s say, for the sake of illustration, that a hundred years from now, two statues are installed by two different regimes, one commemorating Barack Obama as the first black American president and the second commemorating Osama Bin Laden. They would understandably represent two different ideals and likely attract two different types of supporters. If a call were to be put out for the removal of the latter on the grounds that it was a celebration of global terrorism, a commentator would be remiss to make comparisons at that point between the numbers of people killed under Obama’s orders versus the orders of the latter, or to point out initial American support of the Afghan mujahideen. It would certainly be a fair academic critique, but it would completely miss the point.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #44 - August 17, 2017, 08:06 PM

    The Monuments Must Go: An open letter from the great-great-grandsons of Stonewall Jackson
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #45 - August 17, 2017, 10:11 PM

    With that line of reasoning, you completely miss the point.


    No as people are now calling for Jefferson and Lincoln monuments to come down. Race-bait Sharpton is already running his circuit. Exactly what I said. All because people can not control their emotions.

    Quote
    Of course historians should continue to research and educate the public on the lives of historical figures, and I think that said history is fairly well established and available.


    Once you give into such demand history about these people will be called for next. It is going to be a modern day book burning just like in China and Germany

    Quote
    But a preservation of the details of the lives of these men has never been solely what these symbols and monuments are about, especially as time has passed.


    Neither has most monuments. You just like the "good" slave owners and not the "bad" slave owners because you have an interest in defending one and have zero interest in defending others. You are not capable of entertaining a new dedication of monuments at all.

    Quote
    Reducing the discussion to those details misses the broader point of this debate and its ramifications, as these symbols were installed after the fact in order to represent certain ideas. 


    So were the other monuments. Some of which was based on pure fantasy.

    Quote
    They are not actual items of history from the period.


    Neither are most monuments.

    Quote
    Abraham Lincoln actually did sign the Emancipation Proclamation and Robert E Lee actually did lead the Confederate army which sought to uphold the slave system.


    Lincoln was ready to through the anti-slavery idea under the bus for the Union. But wait details do not matter

    Quote
    Similarly, George Washington actually did lead the country through its independence.


    Which kept slavery intact and owned 6x the slaves Lee did.  But wait details do not matter


    Quote
    These men are, then, appropriate symbols of certain respective ideas and are known as such in this country.


    Yes and now people are calling for those monuments to come down because a floodgate has opened when you entertain the notions of people that just complain about useless crap.

    Quote
    Let’s say, for the sake of illustration, that a hundred years from now, two statues are installed by two different regimes, one commemorating Barack Obama as the first black American president and the second commemorating Osama Bin Laden. They would understandably represent two different ideals and likely attract two different types of supporters. If a call were to be put out for the removal of the latter on the grounds that it was a celebration of global terrorism, a commentator would be remiss to make comparisons at that point between the numbers of people killed under Obama’s orders versus the orders of the latter, or to point out initial American support of the Afghan mujahideen. It would certainly be a fair academic critique, but it would completely miss the point.


    No it just bypasses the point and illusions of myth constructed around these people you like and do not like.

    I am just pointing out the can of worms that has been opened. People are already fishing.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #46 - August 17, 2017, 10:34 PM

    First off, the military can disagree as they want. Certainly he should be studied as a general, from an academic standpoint, but the military doesn't get to write which are the heroes of our history. We the people do.


    They have icons of him in West Point in a section area just for Lee.

    Most people are idiots and make heroes out of people that were never heroes. Some athlete comes out as gay and people treat them like they stormed the beaches at Normandy. The first openly gay NFL draftee was drafted not because of talent but because the NFL leadership, not the teams, want him drafted. He was drafted. Now he does not play at all as he was never a good player to begin with. That does not matter because people have their "heroes" and mob rules is the rule of the day.

    Quote
    The Civil War was centrally around slavery. States rights was an issue because of slavery. Why? Because the southern states weren't the only ones that cared about states rights however the war was ultimately fought along explicitly north/south lines, which while there were border states, it overall fell along the lines of how invested they were in the slave system. There's no two ways around this.


    No it wasn't. The South seceded due to States Rights and Slavery. Lincoln fought to maintain the Union. Lincoln was far more anti-sectionalist than anti-slavery.

    Quote
    Washington did not fight the British to explicitly uphold a slave system.


    He as a founding father had more influence than Lee ever did. Yet you excuse one but not the other because one was on the winning side.

    Quote
    That really wasn't the issue in question, and hence the whole equivalence is nonsensical. Keep in mind, I'm not arguing about which of the two was a more moral person, simply about their acceptability as a symbol with regards to their historical contexts.


    No it is more than fair as both have mythology about them which ignores the real person and their acts. You like one and do not like the other. You support one set of myth because said myths are good and do not like the other as those myths are bad. I see no reason to compromise for the sake of mythology. I see no reason to compromise because one was a "good" slaver owner that did nothing while in office and with the power to do.

    Go ahead though keep you mythology if it make you feel good. That is what seems to matter these days. How upset a person becomes.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #47 - August 17, 2017, 10:59 PM

    No as people are now calling for Jefferson and Lincoln monuments to come down. Race-bait Sharpton is already running his circuit. Exactly what I said. All because people can not control their emotions.

    Once you give into such demand history about these people will be called for next. It is going to be a modern day book burning just like in China and Germany

    Neither has most monuments. You just like the "good" slave owners and not the "bad" slave owners because you have an interest in defending one and have zero interest in defending others. You are not capable of entertaining a new dedication of monuments at all.

    So were the other monuments. Some of which was based on pure fantasy.

    Neither are most monuments.

    Lincoln was ready to through the anti-slavery idea under the bus for the Union. But wait details do not matter

    Which kept slavery intact and owned 6x the slaves Lee did.  But wait details do not matter


    Yes and now people are calling for those monuments to come down because a floodgate has opened when you entertain the notions of people that just complain about useless crap.

    No it just bypasses the point and illusions of myth constructed around these people you like and do not like.

    I am just pointing out the can of worms that has been opened. People are already fishing.


    It has nothing to do with what I like or don't like, which is what you seem to be caught up on. I'm under no illusions about the founding of this country and its entrenched dependence upon slavery and exploitation.

     I personally studied and did actual research on the confederate history and civil war period of my home state, where I was born and raised, not online but in college and in actual libraries. I know what those men were. I wish that more people would study the history and legacy of slavery in this country, but that is not what those monuments were about. I have about as much interest in "rededicating" them as I do in reclaiming the swastika.

    Notice I didn't say you were wrong about the history, I said you were completely missing the point. These monuments not only represent ideas, they honor those ideas. That is why they were installed.

    Now,  in a public place or in front of a court house, those monuments send a message that has always been understood for what it was.

    Research the periods when those monuments were erected, they correspond with key periods in the history of civil rights and Jim Crow.

    To miss that, and to miss the symbolism involved, is to miss everything.


  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #48 - August 18, 2017, 01:51 AM


    No just that these two group literally feed off each other. It creates a dangerous mixture that will explode into far more violence. Hence those two groups need to be kept separated with a zero tolerance policy. Many are just waiting for the chance to attack a Neo-Nazi or Antifa member. Pointing out both sides is not out of line. It is the moderate view. This does not mean the severity of their views are the same. It points out that actions on both side creates violence that needs to be crushed by overwhelming police action or the national-guard.

    You seem to be blind to the other side of violence. When two extremist groups that fundamental oppose each other meet there is going to be conflicts. Antifa has been attacking people long before this march because they are anti-capitalism communists, socialists and anarchists. Having Neo-Nazis around is a bonus.


    I am not blind to "the other side of violence". What I saw in Chapel Hill predates social media and all this organizing bullshit. What happened was Nazis went out "hunting". Found a happy couple and shot them dead. There was no fucking feeding going on at all, no opposition. Only the SHARPs there stood up after and said "We don't want you here." No one else said a word, because people were still getting shot and racism was the norm in the South next to the KKK HQ. SHARPs are not antifa. They were working class kids back then, and probably still are.
    These white supremacists used to have all the power. KKK female membership, when opened, found a million instant new followers. Instant. There was no one opposing them, for decades they did as they pleased from many positions of power.
    The opposition to racism is newer, which is shameful in it's lateness, but I am grateful for it still.
    Forget antifa and left and right and all that bullshit. This is not that, this is not Europe or communism, This is a country built on blood and discrimination and the shameful way people were and are treated.
    This is about racism that has left the privacy of it's home and entered the street with intent to kill. Opposition to this is necessary. Nazism is not welcome here. These marchers admitted they came for violence, and intended war to begin. They always work towards that. The citizens opposing them, whatever you like to call them, do not want this, do not want hate, do not want Nazism.
    This is easy to understand. Nazis kill people, they show up outfitted for it, and they are opposed by people. As it should be.
    Now, you said in your post that "Yet letting antifa attack people as if that is completely fine is going to cause people getting murdered by more than cars.". This is fucked up, because Nazis have been attacking people for nearly a hundred years now. It is not something we wait and see about. We know.
    When we have seen people being shot and killed under the Nazi flag and Heil Hitler and chants against Jews we do feel a bit self defensive. We know where this is going. So when someone declares war against people and promises war to come, people might come out in the street and throw shit at them, or kick them, or try to make them go away. Because Nazis kill people, kill non white people, or autistic people, or people who are perceived to be different. Nazism is not about right to life unless you are blonde and perfect and play their Nazi games.
    It's intolerable hate. Try to tell me that people shouldn't fight back against such a clear declaration? We should just wait for it? You would wait?
    If these other white supremacists want to hold peaceful rallies then they need to send the Nazis and the KKK and the violent orgs home, because by marching together they declare an alignment and it is apparent to the rest of the world how they feel about POC and what their intentions are. No one wants it but them, so they will get pushback.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #49 - August 18, 2017, 08:33 AM

    It has nothing to do with what I like or don't like, which is what you seem to be caught up on. I'm under no illusions about the founding of this country and its entrenched dependence upon slavery and exploitation.


    Rhetorical you.

    Quote
    I personally studied and did actual research on the confederate history and civil war period of my home state, where I was born and raised, not online but in college and in actual libraries. I know what those men were. I wish that more people would study the history and legacy of slavery in this country, but that is not what those monuments were about. I have about as much interest in "rededicating" them as I do in reclaiming the swastika.


    Except the swastika was a bastardization of an existing symbol. Okay so you have no interest in creating mythology. You are fine with mythology that already exists.

    Quote
    Notice I didn't say you were wrong about the history, I said you were completely missing the point. These monuments not only represent ideas, they honor those ideas. That is why they were installed.


    So? Do you think all people look at those statues now and think of those ideals? Embrace those ideals? You do not think someone can look at it in a different way? Like the military for example?

    Quote
    Now,  in a public place or in front of a court house, those monuments send a message that has always been understood for what it was.


    Unless there is a plaque than no message.

    Quote
    Research the periods when those monuments were erected, they correspond with key periods in the history of civil rights and Jim Crow.


    Lincoln Memorial and Mount Rushmore fails under that timeline. So unless you have a statement for the purpose of all those statues you have no corroboration.

    Quote
    To miss that, and to miss the symbolism involved, is to miss everything.


    Not evidence. Just a graph and hand waving. Lets see a dedication speech or something of substance.

  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #50 - August 18, 2017, 08:56 AM

    I am not blind to "the other side of violence". What I saw in Chapel Hill predates social media and all this organizing bullshit.


    If not blind than you justify it which means you are justifying political violence.

    Quote
    What happened was Nazis went out "hunting". Found a happy couple and shot them dead. There was no fucking feeding going on at all, no opposition. Only the SHARPs there stood up after and said "We don't want you here." No one else said a word, because people were still getting shot and racism was the norm in the South next to the KKK HQ. SHARPs are not antifa. They were working class kids back then, and probably still are.


    I was talking about antifa. They and the Neo-Nazis feed off of each other because antifa holds an ideaology beyond combating racism.



    Quote
    These white supremacists used to have all the power. KKK female membership, when opened, found a million instant new followers. Instant. There was no one opposing them, for decades they did as they pleased from many positions of power.


    Opposing to mean what exactly?

    Quote
    The opposition to racism is newer, which is shameful in it's lateness, but I am grateful for it still.


    Unless you want to police thought and speech it will always be late or just a generalized view point

    Quote
    Forget antifa and left and right and all that bullshit. This is not that, this is not Europe or communism, This is a country built on blood and discrimination and the shameful way people were and are treated.


    Yes. Many nation that have a history have been.


    Quote
    This is about racism that has left the privacy of it's home and entered the street with intent to kill. Opposition to this is necessary. Nazism is not welcome here. These marchers admitted they came for violence, and intended war to begin. They always work towards that. The citizens opposing them, whatever you like to call them, do not want this, do not want hate, do not want Nazism.


    Antifa was more than happy to provide a rational outside racism. Moderates do not go off attacking people with bats. Extremists do.

    Quote
    This is easy to understand. Nazis kill people, they show up outfitted for it, and they are opposed by people. As it should be.


    Opposed in what way?

    Quote
    Now, you said in your post that "Yet letting antifa attack people as if that is completely fine is going to cause people getting murdered by more than cars.". This is fucked up, because Nazis have been attacking people for nearly a hundred years now. It is not something we wait and see about. We know.


    No it isn't. They are playing right into the hands of Neo-Nazis and white supremacists. Go look at one of the leaders latest videos. He is moaning about lawless attacks. He is painting a picture in which they want to claim victimhood. They got exactly what they wanted. That moron is even calling the murder a point for their side. They claim he was provoked by attacks and responded. Go look up NASDP history, they did the exact same thing. They are attempting to frame actions and reaction within the legal code in order to underplay their own views. Now there are militia pledging protection based on 1st and 2nd amendment rights. Which to me is just another BS facade to cover for sympathetic views. It does not take a genius to figure this out.

    Quote
    When we have seen people being shot and killed under the Nazi flag and Heil Hitler and chants against Jews we do feel a bit self defensive. We know where this is going. So when someone declares war against people and promises war to come, people might come out in the street and throw shit at them, or kick them, or try to make them go away. Because Nazis kill people, kill non white people, or autistic people, or people who are perceived to be different. Nazism is not about right to life unless you are blonde and perfect and play their Nazi games.


    Endorsement of political violence?

    Quote
    It's intolerable hate. Try to tell me that people shouldn't fight back against such a clear declaration? We should just wait for it? You would wait?


    Yes I would because I am not an emotional wreck that turns to violence at the first chance.

    Quote
    If these other white supremacists want to hold peaceful rallies then they need to send the Nazis and the KKK and the violent orgs home, because by marching together they declare an alignment and it is apparent to the rest of the world how they feel about POC and what their intentions are. No one wants it but them, so they will get pushback.


    Likewise counter-protestors should do the same. Oh I forgot you seem to endorse political violence when it suits you or when your emotions tell. Your little soapbox speech holds no weight when you can not even maintain a balance view that is applicable to both sides. You seem more interesting in shutting down one side than stopping violence.



  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #51 - August 18, 2017, 09:18 AM

    that is true when military leaders are NOT under the control of public elected leaders .. but I think in 21st century  US of A is NOT under military rule ., or am I wrong??


    The military is under civilian control yet West Point still has a Lee section. The difference is the military is not subject to the whims of the mob


    Quote
    i am sure you know Mr. John Wilkes Booth  dear bogart

    would you like see his monument   in any public sphere of US of A dear bogart??  .. well you know the heroes of American confederate states lost the war.. So ideally I would suggest  a Museum for all those monuments and memorials  and huge library to explain their actions for children of US of A....


    It will not stop at museums. Sharpton is already calling for the defunding of the Jefferson monument which is part muesum. Some pastor is calling for the Washington monument to come down. It is becoming a modern day book burning.

    Quote
    what do you think?


    Doesn't matter as I put up with statues and monument I do not like anyways. If they want to go for it.


    Quote
    that is what his great great Grand sons and  Great-great-granddaughter says., and I have to agree with them.


    Their voice is only being highlight because of their name. Yawn.

    Quote
    We must realize racism and race problems are there all over the globe ., they are still there but  they were  more prevalent  in U S of A   all the way to that Mr.John F. Kennedy times.,     Lincoln  times were simply unimaginable and that was one reason Lincoln gave his life  ..


    Yes the USA has a cycle of revisionist history on both sides that keeps the racial divisions going. It gives into mob rule often. In general the media plays a love hate relationship with race and creed. Look at Barsonla coverage. The far-left media was very quick in speculating that it was a copy-cat from Charlottesville. Let just completely ignore global statistics because that wouldn't be part of the narrative. Yet in typical fashion they were wrong again.

    Lincoln didn't give his life. He was not a soldier. He was a politician that in one moment of relaxed security was shot at an opera house.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #52 - August 18, 2017, 09:20 AM

    Not evidence. Just a graph and hand waving. Lets see a dedication speech or something of substance.


    From the link above:
    Quote
    Among many examples, we can see this plainly if we look at the dedication of a Confederate statue at the University of North Carolina, in which a speaker proclaimed that the Confederate soldier “saved the very life of the Anglo-Saxon race in the South.” Disturbingly, he went on to recount a tale of performing the “pleasing duty” of “horse whipping” a black woman in front of federal soldiers.

  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #53 - August 18, 2017, 09:32 AM

    Defending Charlottesville: A Report from the Ground
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #54 - August 18, 2017, 10:18 AM

    Rhetorical you.

    OK
    Quote
    Except the swastika was a bastardization of an existing symbol. Okay so you have no interest in creating mythology. You are fine with mythology that already exists.

    Come on, man. You're putting the onus on me (rhetorical me, though I did grow up terrified of confederate symbolism) to recreate an entire mythology of a nation and to rededicate a symbol that was used to intimidate and supress my family, all to save a fucking statue? Fuck the statue.

    Quote
    So? Do you think all people look at those statues now and think of those ideals? Embrace those ideals?


    No, not all.  But many absolutely do. Why do you think it is the neo nazis and white nationalists who are fighting to preserve these symbols? They are their symbols. Why do you think Dylann Roof wrapped himself in Robert E Lee's battle flag? I am southern born and raised, as I said earlier. I have first hand experience of what that confederate flag represents. I saw these things with my own two eyes. Robert E Lee's flag flying over billboards that say "home of the KKK" or on shops with overtly racist language plastered on the walls. We're dealing with actual White Supremacists here, bogart. Just because you don't understand the symbolism doesn't mean it's not there.

    Quote
    Unless there is a plaque than no message.


    Again, just because you fail to (won't) see the very thinly veiled symbolism doesn't mean it's not there. The monuments proliferated in front of courthouses in 10's and 20's when Jim Crow laws were enacted and in the 1960's when blacks were challenging Jim Crow in the judicial system. There were also, as is linked in this thread, monuments that "faced north" symbolizing a continuation of the fight. These aren't civil war monuments, they are Jim Crow monuments.

     
    Quote
    Lincoln Memorial and Mount Rushmore fails under that timeline.


    Except the Lincoln Memorial is literally dedicated to the saving of the Union. Like, literally, the belief that "all men are created equal" is engraved in its stone. Literally.

    So, to my point, the monuments are symbols to two wildly different ideas.

    Quote
    So unless you have a statement for the purpose of all those statues you have no corroboration.


    Thanks, Zeca.

    Quote
    Not evidence. Just a graph and hand waving.


    Here's another for you. This one shows when the monuments spiked going up in front of courthouses. Surprise, surprise, it happens right when southern White Supremacism and Jim Crow become enacted and challenged in the courts. But I guess that's just more hand waving.

  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #55 - August 18, 2017, 11:19 AM

    If not blind than you justify it which means you are justifying political violence.

    I was talking about antifa. They and the Neo-Nazis feed off of each other because antifa holds an ideaology beyond combating racism.



    Opposing to mean what exactly?

    Unless you want to police thought and speech it will always be late or just a generalized view point

    Yes. Many nation that have a history have been.


    Antifa was more than happy to provide a rational outside racism. Moderates do not go off attacking people with bats. Extremists do.

    Opposed in what way?

    No it isn't. They are playing right into the hands of Neo-Nazis and white supremacists. Go look at one of the leaders latest videos. He is moaning about lawless attacks. He is painting a picture in which they want to claim victimhood. They got exactly what they wanted. That moron is even calling the murder a point for their side. They claim he was provoked by attacks and responded. Go look up NASDP history, they did the exact same thing. They are attempting to frame actions and reaction within the legal code in order to underplay their own views. Now there are militia pledging protection based on 1st and 2nd amendment rights. Which to me is just another BS facade to cover for sympathetic views. It does not take a genius to figure this out.

    Endorsement of political violence?

    Yes I would because I am not an emotional wreck that turns to violence at the first chance.

    Likewise counter-protestors should do the same. Oh I forgot you seem to endorse political violence when it suits you or when your emotions tell. Your little soapbox speech holds no weight when you can not even maintain a balance view that is applicable to both sides. You seem more interesting in shutting down one side than stopping violence.






    I don't think you get it. I am absolutely interested in shutting down hate and calls for race wars. Absolutely. The citizens opposing Nazism are not calling for war as the Nazis are. They are calling for an end to racism and hate. 
    I am talking about the rise of white nationalism on a military base in the South, opposed openly only by a local SHARP crew. I saw the whole thing from start to finish.
    The locals do not want Nazis there.
    I do not know why you are going on and on about beatings when I have clearly stated that the Nazis were shooting people and causing fatalities and one sucking chest wound. I don't think the SHARPs managed to get in an effective beating on a Nazi at all. There was a lot of campaigning, a lot of yelling, some truces on occasion, and only the POC were shot.
    You said the Nazis are here because they are feeding off of antifa.
    I said, no. They were here before. I saw them. They don't need anyone to feed off of, as they feed off of their own hate and they seek out violence, instigate violence, and have done so historically even from positions of power in the South, as their ideology was tolerated and their membership in violent racist orgs (like KKK) was accepted and often their social outlet. 
    We are not dealing with a peaceful organization. We are dealing with violent people, who typically come ready to commit fatalities. Antifa out of towners, for all their criminal tendencies, do not pack heat.
    Nazis are not moderates, either. 
    It would be fantastic if we could stop violence. But it seems we have people gearing up for it, and they want more. Antifa does not have a long term fantasy about wiping out other races. Nazis do.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #56 - August 18, 2017, 03:41 PM

    I am just pointing out the can of worms that has been opened. People are already fishing.


    If the statues are taken down, then in your mind it will be because of a tyranny of the majority without reference to fact. But when the statues were put up, it was precisely because of a tyranny of a majority without reference to fact.

    In a perfect world I'm sure you would be the main arbiter of what goes up and what comes down, but we don't live in that world for better or worse.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #57 - August 18, 2017, 06:16 PM

    http://www.bbc.com/news/video_and_audio/must_see/40956919/us-woman-confronts-her-neighbour-over-nazi-flag

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl0ggx6dcb0

    Page Blaswell couldn't believe her eyes when she drove past a home flying a Nazi flag in North Carolina. She decided to confront her neighbour and told the BBC about her experience.

    That is what BBC  news... 

    Make AMRIKA great ..
    yeeha woo haa...ha..HA1...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-bKFo30o2o

    Make AMRIKA great ..


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #58 - August 19, 2017, 12:08 AM

    Funny. I was just talking about North Carolina.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Charlottesville: one dead, nineteen injured as car drives into protesters
     Reply #59 - August 19, 2017, 01:28 AM

    http://www.snopes.com/2017/08/17/are-antifa-and-the-alt-right-equally-violent/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social

    ...."Announce an event that’s going to piss everyone who has common sense off, something so outrageous it’s going to piss 99 percent of the population off, then when someone gets on Twitter [and threatens them], send out a press release saying, “we can’t practice our free speech rights because of leftist violence.” Then show up anyway. They have canceled so many rallies that they showed up at anyway and still rallied. The “threat of leftist violence” means they need to wear body armor and bring weapons. If it’s an open carry state they’ll have [firearms]. If it’s not an open carry state they’ll bring firecrackers and sticks.

    And then when someone… pushes them or spits on them, they’ll use that as an excuse to strike out. Then the leftists will strike out, and the media won’t know who’s who." The important distinction, he said, is that “the leftists aren’t organizing the protests.” They’re just responding to them. Sepulvado added...

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
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