Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


What music are you listen...
by zeca
Yesterday at 09:27 PM

مدهش----- لماذا؟؟؟؟
by akay
Yesterday at 01:57 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
January 27, 2023, 06:48 AM

Lights on the way
by akay
January 24, 2023, 12:32 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
January 19, 2023, 12:22 AM

5 strongest arguments aga...
January 15, 2023, 11:21 AM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
January 04, 2023, 09:41 PM

Is Iran/Persia going to b...
by zeca
December 30, 2022, 01:08 PM

(Sticky) Compendium of Sc...
by zeca
December 28, 2022, 01:23 PM

New Britain
December 24, 2022, 10:37 PM

Pakistan: The Nation.....
December 21, 2022, 03:22 PM

Apostasy Alternative
December 21, 2022, 01:42 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: To live as a Muslim or not

 (Read 9792 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     OP - June 22, 2017, 12:53 PM

    Hello All,

    I don’t come on this site very often, but sometimes login when things start getting to me.

    I grew up a devout Muslim, and only realised that Islam could not be the true religion when I was in my thirties (that feels really shitty)

    By this point I was married to a religious lady, and had two kids.
    I had a good marriage and life, so tried to live in the closet, but it’s hard keeping a secret like that from your partner.

    One day when speaking about how slavery was immoral, my wife asked me how I reconciled that with the Quran, and I blurted out that it proved to me that the God of Islam was not real.

    She took the news quite well, I think she might have already suspected.

    She did not want to break the marriage so we agreed to a truce, where I would live like a cultural Muslim, this included not eating haram, or drinking alcohol, but I would not follow the prayer schedule, reading Quran etc.  I agreed to this as I prefer not drinking from a health perspective, and living in London, the food thing is not really a problem.  And In return she would ignore my apostasy. 


    This arrangement has been going for a year.  On the whole its fine.  But somethings do nag away at me.

    constantly hearing god based logic from extended family gets tiring.
    Also my wife does hijab and dresses modestly, and id quite likes to see her out and about in a short skirt. I don’t know why this is an issue but it annoys me a little.

    I know my wife is being selective in her implementation of Islam, as our marriage was Islamic ally over as soon as I  declared my apostasy to her, but she decided to ignore that little detail.

    Sometimes I feel like declaring my apostasy openly, but I’m not sure what that would achieve.
    My wife cares deeply what her close community think of her, and she would have to terminate our marriage. Her uncle left Islam, which hurt her mother.  Resultantly I think my wife would never admit to herself even if she lost her belief as she would never want her mother to go through that pain again.

    Sometimes I try to imagine what would happen if I declared my apostasy openly, would that be a better thing for both of us.  I’m not sure.

    I try to ask myself how I would live my life differently if I was openly an atheist, and for all intents and purposes I wouldn’t do too much different.

    If I’m completely honest the only thing I feel like I’ve missed out on is sleeping with different women. 
    Sometimes I think maybe I should give myself a birthday present each year of a night with a smoking hot prostitute just to experience it. 
     

    If I go down this route I would have to find a new community and being close to 40 and quite introverted, I’m not sure how that would turn out. 

    Also our kids would then have to deal with their parents splitting up, and I would lose the ability to influence my kids beliefs.


    For the moment I have a very loving wife, a nice home, and very supportive extended family and friends network.  But it’s all Muslim.  My life is like a very comfortable pair of slippers.  I don’t know if I want to rock the boat.

    It annoys me, why do I feel the need declare my belief when I am mostly able to live by my own choices.



    In some ways I feel that, by being a closet ex Muslim I am helping to reinforce the myth Muslims have that their religion is perfect and nobody sincere leaves.
    I feel a need to take a stand and be counted, but when I think about that scenario, I don’t think I want to waste the precious little life I have left arguing with religious folk who can’t see the obvious issues with their faith.

    I’m not sure if I’m asking a question or just ranting, but feel free to leave any advice or opinions you have.

    Thanks for reading.




    A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #1 - June 22, 2017, 01:19 PM

    Hello All,
    .......................................

    ...........For the moment I have a very loving wife, a nice home, and very supportive extended family and friends network.  But it’s all Muslim.  My life is like a very comfortable pair of slippers.  I don’t know if I want to rock the boat.......

    I’m not sure if I’m asking a question or just ranting, but feel free to leave any advice or opinions you have.

    Thanks for reading.


    dear aside glad to read you and welcome to the den.. This Den is for ranting.. I say you should NOT rock the boat.. NEVER..... but if the boat gets rocked by ocean ways,  you dance on it and rock & roll along with it .

    Like you,  millions of People live all the time  all over the world with the confusion ., with  the problems of internal inconsistencies   allah/god religious rules/rituals .,  In fact that goe snot only for Islam but for all faiths  

    Questions for you on your words ..

    Quote
    "1). I grew up a devout Muslim, and only realised that Islam could not be the true religion when I was in my thirties (that feels really shitty)"


    1). Who is a devout Muslim? how do we define it.,

    2). Forget Islamic allah/god but do you believe in some supreme authority  of this universe??  would you give chance for yourself  to be an Agnostic Muslim/believer ??  

    3). Or you are completely in to Atheism in the sense that THERE  IS NO SUPER DUPER Allah/god  that controls everything and anything all the time in this universe ??

    4).  If you are in to Atheism., do you have problem with Human Morality  and do you think the present Morality that we have in different cultures comes from religious books/rules?? [/i]

    I can ask you 100s of questions but those are sufficient to start with

    Finally did you read Quran ??

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #2 - June 22, 2017, 04:06 PM

    You live your life basically the way you like it as it is. You don't have to pretend in front of yout wife. Overall, you have a good life. You are part of your children's lives and can be a positive influence for them to be more critical and open minded.

    What could you possibly gain with going public about your apostasy, making a ruckus not just for yourself,but for your wife and kids as well?

    Worst case scenario, which seems to be a likely possibility, you lose your wife and happy life with your kids. Personally, I don't see the reason nor benefit to not just go on as you are.

    I can only assume you are in your 30's or above, women who have been raised modestly and dressed modestly up to that point, don't just change to wearing short skirts because they lose faith. And that's not even a thing you should be worried about, that's her choice. Just becaue you lost your faith doesn't mean she has. She is tolerant enough to accept you like you are. She just wants to keep the peace and harmless cultural practices she is used to.


    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #3 - June 22, 2017, 05:58 PM

    Honestly, dude. The world is not just full of loads of people who love you and understand you. It’s not just full of hot and wild women who are just jumping at the chance to throw themselves onto you every other second. And it’s certainly not full of people who agree with your world views and conclusions and won’t annoy you with their irrational points of view. The world is a pretty unexciting, lonely place most of the time. It sounds like you have a pretty enviable set up as it is.

    Still, it sounds like it’s the relationship with your wife that you are struggling with the most, and that’s understandable. I think it’s reasonable to have an expectation of a fulfilling connection with your spouse. Frankly, if the only thing you feel that you are missing out on is sex, you probably will not stand to gain much by leaving your current arrangement. Your sex drive is one of those things that doesn’t really go away the more sex you have, so it’s likely you’ll always feel that way within a day or two of sleeping with someone new. (That is not to downplay the importance of a fulfilling sex life. It’s just something to consider.)

     If, however, you’re feeling like you aren’t getting fulfillment in other areas, you might be able to use this time to connect more with your wife. It sounds like she’s willing to sacrifice a lot in terms of her own personal values and comfort level so that she can stay with you. Do you think you might be able to plan some sort of a getaway with her and test the waters of conversation a bit? Is there a chance she might open up more to you about her own reservations if you approached the conversation tactfully? Maybe you can help her explore those areas were her personal values and Islam don’t quite line up. That could potentially strengthen the bond between you two.

    (Or, it could completely backfire, at which point you’d have to reassess your strategy. And you always have CEMB if you need to vent about Islamic nonsense in private.  grin12 )
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #4 - June 22, 2017, 07:44 PM

    It feels like, reading your post again, that you're going through a mid-life crisis more than anything. Not sleeping with other women, feeling bored and under-stimulated in your relationship, thinking "is this all?". But perhaps your wife is asking herself the same thing, or maybe she hasn't even allowed herself to have those thoughts. I think ibn Bilal gave great advice. Either way, you should look at how you can make your relationship with your wife better, rather than thinking it all has to do with some public statement about your apostasy. In the end, you'd benefit the most from working on yourself and your relationship.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #5 - June 22, 2017, 08:01 PM

    lol Cornflower,

    maybe you should be a psychologist. 

    I am going through a mid life crisis.  I know this because over the last two years i became disillusioned with my career, and have spent the last couple of years trying to setup my own business.  I feel like this is my version of getting a sports car. 

    But i had not liked my feelings about my apostasy with my mid life crisis.  My relationship with my wife is pretty good, and to be honest our sex life is quite good(kids allowing). 

    Im gonna have a little think about what you said.  I always told myself the thoughts about missing out multiple partners was just a regret from growing up a good muslim boy, and remaining a virgin till i was married. 

    Thanks for all you responses.

    @Ibn Bilal that was good advice indeed.

    A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #6 - June 22, 2017, 10:12 PM

    Just make sure the sports car is red, shiny, and shaped like a penis.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #7 - June 23, 2017, 02:16 AM

    I feel that if I were in your shoes aside, I would feel committed to the choices that I'd made with my life, and especially feel committed to my children until they reach at least young adulthood. If at that point you wanted to leave a loveless marriage, for any reason, then I couldn't fault you whatsoever. If I'm being honest with myself, its a big reason why I haven't chosen to commit to those sorts of decisions.

    Anyway worse come to worse, at nearly 40 years of age, you're still young enough for another couple of marriages at least so I wouldn't worry too much about it either way.  grin12

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #8 - June 23, 2017, 10:13 AM

    I feel the same way Asbie, I have great kids who currently enjoy a warm family environment, i feel responsible for seeing this through to the end. 

    And on the whole im ok with it, as i mentioned above I get to make my own decisions, and apart from the tension that exists from our diverging beliefs, we actually really get along. 

    The day i blurted out to her that i don't believe happened because she was telling me that she felt it was unjust that a man was allowed to sleep with a slave.  She was so disgusted by the thought that i felt like she was ready to renounce Islam, but i was wrong.  She seems perfectly capable of admitting Allah is unjust and staying devoted to him at the same time. 

    Then why do seemingly trivial things refuse to leave my head.

    recently i saw an advert on tv where a couple were on holiday, and they went out dancing.  I remember thinking i wish i could go out dancing with my wife, but i know that will never happen.  It sounds so stupid and inconsequential, but i felt affected by it. 
    It annoys me that my wife believes that going dancing with her husband would offend Allah, but there you go. 

    But to ruin everything I have just because i would like to go out dancing some time seems stupid. 

    A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #9 - June 23, 2017, 11:34 AM

    .................The day i blurted out to her that i don't believe happened because she was telling me that she felt it was unjust that a man was allowed to sleep with a slave.  She was so disgusted by the thought that i felt like she was ready to renounce Islam, but i was wrong. She seems perfectly capable of admitting Allah is unjust and staying devoted to him at the same time.  ..........

    what she said is perfect Indeed  it is unjust that a man was allowed to sleep with a slave.  If it is in book throw the shit  out

    aside  you are completely wrong there..  She seems to understand Islam better than you ., Allah is unjust if you read  Quran/hadith with critical eyes and mind  And Allah is unjust  at worst or intrinsically impotent/helpless  to those who question Allah from reading those books/Islamic literature.

    but your better half is a cultural Muslim hence for her,   her  Allah will never be unjust .,   She has nothing to do with what Rogues of Islam/preachers of Islam /political Islam and what Scoundrels in Islam do with Islamic literature
    Quote
    ...Then why do seemingly trivial things refuse to leave my head.................

    well get your head out of gutters

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #10 - June 23, 2017, 11:35 AM

    Dear aside, your thread title caught my attention earlier yesterday, but I was unable to reply at the time. I started to write this late last night (small hours of this morning), but was unable to finish as my wife was wondering why I hadn't come to bed yet.

    I don't have any real advice, although I see others have upheld the CEMB reputation in that regard. I do however, appreciate how you feel.

    I'm in my 30s, and whilst not raised as a Muslim, I was very shy when I was growing up, rarely drank alcohol, hardly socialised and was generally what's known as a loner. I got on better with teachers than pupils at school, and that tended to be the case through later education as well.

    I think there's enough from me on this forum about my story, so I won't repeat it here. As for my wife, she is practising, wears, will only go out in a black abaya, Turkish hijab with a hair net underneath, arm sleeves and socks, and won't even answer the door in bare feet. She is studying for her first ijaza in tajweed, and teaches what she already knows to children and adults.

    Despite the above, she is aware of my doubts and has come to accept that I'm not practising, to the extent that we essentially forgot it's ramadhan for the past week while she was on her period (including taking full advantage of her last day where her period finished well after sunrise). However, I'm sure I know she holds on to the hope that this is, albeit now a very long, phase, and I'll soon be practising again. One big huge difference is that we don't have children.

    My wife and I love each other very much, are totally relaxed and comfortable with each other, but - and this is where I feel I understand what you're going through - it's just not.. I wanted to say enough. I don't mean that. Maybe it's not right? I feel like I'm maybe brushing things under the carpet, not wanting to rock the boat. The things I find make me unhappy are also seemingly trivial, can't you just put up with it, situations. For example, I would dearly love to go out for walks with my wife. A walk around the park, a picnic on a sunny afternoon, heck even walk to the shop together. But it never happens. Why? Because my wife won't go outside without wrapping up and covering every inch of skin, except her hands and face. It really, really gets me down.

    Another such example is, as I said above, my wife has just finished her period. This was 10 days of no fasting and no praying, and was lovely. Today, she is fasting again, which of course means we're not eating together but that's not such a problem for me. What really got to me, was when it was time for her to pray. I knew it was coming, buy my heart sank. Yes, this is selfish. No, I'd never want to stop her from practising what she believes. But oh boy does it get to me. It's not so much the act of praying itself, but what it represents. To me, that performance of religiosity, 5 times a day, has come to symbolise everything about Islam (and perhaps organised religion in general) that I am uncomfortable with.

    I could go on. And on. But I have already said way more than I intended, in a thread that is not mine! That you have children, makes our situations polar opposite. In other ways, I think we're in very similar positions indeed. You have certainly helped me to feel less self obsessed and more comfortable with how I'm feeling, and for that I thank you. I hope, although I have no real advice to offer, that this feeling is at least in some small part reciprocated.
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #11 - June 23, 2017, 11:42 AM

    I should qualify this:

    Quote
    For example, I would dearly love to go out for walks with my wife. A walk around the park, a picnic on a sunny afternoon, heck even walk to the shop together. But it never happens. Why? Because my wife won't go outside without wrapping up and covering every inch of skin, except her hands and face. It really, really gets me down.


    The reason my wife's need to cover up, prevents us from going out, is that a) it's a lot of too much hassle, and b) she will be very hot. This may have been self explanatory, but I felt I should be explicit.
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #12 - June 23, 2017, 01:24 PM

    Hi Jrg,

    Thanks for replying, your post got me curious and i read one of your posts from 2014.  It sounded like you were just about to get divorced, i assume that did not happen since that was three years ago.  it is good you dont have kids yet, to be honest i probably would be divorced if i had lost my faith before i had kids.  I lost my faith about 12 months after having kids, but i think having kids might have been the trigger that caused it, but i cant be sure.

    Its always reassuring to hear other peoples stories with similar dimensions.  I fasted this ramadhan, and my wife did ask me why i was fasting, i told her its a social thing that everyone in the community gets involved with so i was keeping with the community,  but i think next year im gonna opt out of fasting its bloody hard. 

    From your post it sounds like you dont fast, how does that affect the dynamic in the house during ramadhan.






    A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #13 - June 23, 2017, 01:37 PM

    Jrg, I don't think the hijab is to blame here. I was a munaqqabah and went out all the time, going to parks and playgrounds and museums. Well, I did that alone with my friends for the sake of the kids. However, my ex never wanted to do anything or go anywhere. So I think it has to do with mentality and the way of thinking. Question is if she would've been more willing to go out to dinner and parks without it, or if she has to change her view on life in general. I'd guess it has ti do with the latter.

    If I had a husband who thought it was OK to do stuff like dinner, museums, parks, travel, amd having a decent life, and perhaps if I had dropped the niqab in due time with my husbands approval, my problems with Islam would perhaps come a lot later. My issues were no dubt exclusively intelectual and theological, but the trigger and ignition to it all was the more practical and social side of the problem.

    Anyway, I went a bit ot about myself...

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #14 - June 23, 2017, 04:08 PM

    aside, I think we were close to divorce, or rather I was mentally preparing for it. However I was persuaded to keep trying, and reading, and talking to knowledgeable people. I did continue to explore my doubts and the apparent contradictions. But I think the main reason we (that is, my wife and I) are where we find ourselves today,  is more because a) that Ramadhan had passed (always a time I find myself questioning what the ..... I've got myself into), and more so that b) I was terrified I'd fall into a deep, all consuming depression, and self preservation kicked in. That is immensely selfish, but I'm being honest here, and it's the truth. Denial makes it hard for me to believe it's been 3 years. 3 years of making ends meet, and keeping my head above the waters of emotional and mental stability.

    I sincerely admire your ability to observe the fast, without sneaking around eating and drinking when people aren't looking. Faking fasting is nigh on impossible to hide from a spouse, as one's lack of fasting breath is a dead giveaway. I tried this but think the only person I was fooling, was myself. It's so much easier to be up front about things. And that's how it seems to work - my wife knows how I feel and has accepted that I don't pray or fast. But as I said, she sees a light at the end of the tunnel, whereas for me that light seems to have been extinguished with my continued questioning and unease.

    My wife desperately wants children, or at least a child. She's lonely, particularly when I'm at work. We haven't had kids naturally - we've rarely used contraception but have always had a good, if sometimes sporadic, sexual relationship. I think this is part of what's kept me from committing to renouncing Islam altogether, the thought that having a child would be Allah's way of maintaining my faith and our marriage.

    I'm interested in why you feel having children could have brought on your doubts. Was it the reality of teaching them something that you've always quietly been uncomfortable with? Something which perhaps you've been in denial about for longer than you'd like to admit? Or am I way off on this?

    And thank you, once again. Talking about these things really does help to gain perspective and relieve some internal build up of emotional pressure.
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #15 - June 23, 2017, 04:11 PM

    Cornflower, thank you for your thoughts. I want to reply, but have to go now. Back later, folks  Smiley
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #16 - June 23, 2017, 10:17 PM

    I cant be sure if kids did trigger my apostacy however my doubts started  about 6 months after becoming a father.

    It was the sun setting in the spring line that did it. I had heard that stuff when I was younger but it never registered with me, but this time, as soon as I read it I knew my faith was gone.

    But a few things about being a father have struck a chord with my apostacy.

    As a father when I give my kids a rule, where they willl be punsished if they disobey my rule, then i follow a few principles to ensure fairness.

    I make sure I explained the rules to them personally
    I make sure they understood the rules
    I male sure they have a fair opportunity to obey the rule.

     But this is not how Allah behaves,
    He didnt deliver the message personally
    He left the message in such a mess that it took scholars a couple of hundred years to agree on its rules
    He didnt deliver the message equally to everyone
    He didnt give everyone the same opportunity to pass the test. 

    So becoming a father only helped to confirm for me that Allah is not real.

    A final point on the kids, marriage gets harder not easier after kids. If you are having difficulty now with your marriage, then it will only get harder after kids.
    Hoping a child will give you a shared purpose is a big risk, as kids are hard  for the first few years.

    Make sure you really want to have kids with your parner before doing it, or you might end up in a worse situation,  where you want to end your marriage and have to deal with the prospect of affecting your childs future too. Thats 100 times worse than what you feel now about leaving your partner.

    Thats just my two cents worth.

    A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #17 - June 24, 2017, 02:52 AM

    Been reading the thread intently. One question.

    So for you folks who got married. Just why though? Obviously question is for those who were consenting parties.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #18 - June 24, 2017, 09:18 AM

    I got married because I was looking for a companion to live life with, and I got  a lovely partner I could share my life with.

    Every day we sit down and catch up with each others lives
    We have our little secret jokes,
    We provide support for each other both emotional and physical
    I feel so comfortable with my wife I can act myself around her(this was completely true before my apostasy, and 90% true now)
    we rely on each other to deal with specific things that we are each good at.
    We get satisfaction from picking each others scabs.
    We work together to build a shared future that is very satisfying.
    We agree with each other on most practical issues
    I have love in my life, someone who shows me affection, someone I can show affection to.

    Like I said at the start I have a really good life, the problem is just that I lost my faith and we stopped being completely aligned.
    Sometimes id quite like to speak about how ridiculous I find religion, but this upsets my wife so I dont do it.
    There is a slight underlying tension that we both feel, but at the moment it feels minor.
    Id like to go dancing, but that wont happen.
    My wife would like me to lead mughrib salaat so we can pray together, but I refuse to do it.

    So it feels like im complaining about small things. But being I live in a muslim community I dont have an outlet for it, hence my ramblings here.

    A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #19 - June 24, 2017, 10:54 AM

    asbie, I'm going to answer your question first, because it's less mentally taxing and means I can delay self scrutiny for a little longer  dance

    I second pretty much everything aside said in his last post. The picking scabs point made me pause from sipping my coffee as I laughed aloud. All these and more, are the things marriage is about. Not to start with, but they develop over time. My wife and I are totally comfortable around each other and not ashamed to be naked, either; something I'm so pleased about.

    We recently wondered if it was weird that we don't feel the need to close the bathroom door (obviously this can't be done if you have kids, unless you have an en suite). We did some reading on the mumsnet forum, an absolute goldmine of candid, day to day life information (and some very funny stuff too - sometimes we'll spend half an hour going through some of the threads, at times crying with laughter). Anyway, it turns out opinion is very divided on the matter of closing the toilet door while you're doing your business. Who'd've thought it?!

    In some ways, we know each other better than we know ourselves. We can finish each others' sentences. We can say what the other is thinking. We can at times, answer a question before it's even been asked. We have our own words for things. We talk to each other in a mixture of languages.

    It's not all a bed of roses, and I'm not going to talk about the details of my marriage here, as that's not the topic. Marriage is like life's comfort blanket. No matter what happens in life (with exception of losing faith, perhaps), we're there for each other. And the fact we're married, is confirmation that we're committed to being there for each other, and nobody else. That, to me, is marriage.
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #20 - June 24, 2017, 11:11 AM

    Hello aside,

    It was the sun setting in the spring line that did it.

    I didn't get this when I read you yesterday, but having looked back through some of your posts from 3 years ago, I now totally understand.

    I see, I got it totally wrong! Your comparing your relationship with your children, to that of Allah and his creation, makes total sense. Whilst there was (somewhat frustratingly) no eureka moment, as you had with the sun setting in the water ayat, the reasons you give here are another part of the puzzle that helps complete the picture of my disbelief.

    Quote
    A final point on the kids, marriage gets harder not easier after kids. If you are having difficulty now with your marriage, then it will only get harder after kids.

    Thank you for making this explicitly clear. I wouldn't expect it to be any other way, but I'm glad you actually said it.

    I don't know why we haven't had children, we haven't sought medical advice. It just hasn't happened. I think, if I were in your situation (i.e. if we had had kid/s), I'd either have found faith again (or at least enough faith) to continue believing and practising, or I'd be able to live enough of a double life to raise our children with both parents. But it hasn't happened, and now our relationship is feeling the strain of that, as well as my struggle with belief.

    Quote
    Thats just my two cents worth.

    Two cents very much appreciated  Smiley
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #21 - June 24, 2017, 11:22 AM

    aside, I feel somewhat under qualified to give you advice, and to do so would feel rather patronising. However, I hope you'll not take offence to my reminding you of some advice given some time ago, by another member:

    You'll probably want to try all these things and more power to you. Just don't get yourself into thinking those things define you as an apostate.
    That is to say, just as you would think
    As a Muslim, I should not drink.
    Don't think.
    As an apostate, I should drink, eat pork, club, have lots of crazy sex with lots of partners...

    I know you don't think like that, but watch for those kinds of thoughts.


    That's sound advice. I don't know how I missed that thread, it's fascinating.
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #22 - June 28, 2017, 04:34 AM

    I got married because I was looking for a companion to live life with, and I got  a lovely partner I could share my life with.

    Every day we sit down and catch up with each others lives
    We have our little secret jokes,
    We provide support for each other both emotional and physical
    I feel so comfortable with my wife I can act myself around her(this was completely true before my apostasy, and 90% true now)
    we rely on each other to deal with specific things that we are each good at.
    We get satisfaction from picking each others scabs.
    We work together to build a shared future that is very satisfying.
    We agree with each other on most practical issues
    I have love in my life, someone who shows me affection, someone I can show affection to.

    Like I said at the start I have a really good life, the problem is just that I lost my faith and we stopped being completely aligned.
    Sometimes id quite like to speak about how ridiculous I find religion, but this upsets my wife so I dont do it.
    There is a slight underlying tension that we both feel, but at the moment it feels minor.
    Id like to go dancing, but that wont happen.
    My wife would like me to lead mughrib salaat so we can pray together, but I refuse to do it.

    So it feels like im complaining about small things. But being I live in a muslim community I dont have an outlet for it, hence my ramblings here.


    Seems like some pretty human reasons and stuff. Hence why I can't relate to any of it.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #23 - June 28, 2017, 04:36 AM

    asbie, I'm going to answer your question first, because it's less mentally taxing and means I can delay self scrutiny for a little longer  dance

    I second pretty much everything aside said in his last post. The picking scabs point made me pause from sipping my coffee as I laughed aloud. All these and more, are the things marriage is about. Not to start with, but they develop over time. My wife and I are totally comfortable around each other and not ashamed to be naked, either; something I'm so pleased about.

    We recently wondered if it was weird that we don't feel the need to close the bathroom door (obviously this can't be done if you have kids, unless you have an en suite). We did some reading on the mumsnet forum, an absolute goldmine of candid, day to day life information (and some very funny stuff too - sometimes we'll spend half an hour going through some of the threads, at times crying with laughter). Anyway, it turns out opinion is very divided on the matter of closing the toilet door while you're doing your business. Who'd've thought it?!

    In some ways, we know each other better than we know ourselves. We can finish each others' sentences. We can say what the other is thinking. We can at times, answer a question before it's even been asked. We have our own words for things. We talk to each other in a mixture of languages.

    It's not all a bed of roses, and I'm not going to talk about the details of my marriage here, as that's not the topic. Marriage is like life's comfort blanket. No matter what happens in life (with exception of losing faith, perhaps), we're there for each other. And the fact we're married, is confirmation that we're committed to being there for each other, and nobody else. That, to me, is marriage.


     vomit

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #24 - June 28, 2017, 10:05 AM

    lol asbie, which bit in particular made you puke?  grin12
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #25 - June 28, 2017, 11:50 AM

    Blah blah blah, woe is me. I need a companion blah blah etc.


    I second the violent expulsion of liquid. Should've got a dog instead.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #26 - June 28, 2017, 12:01 PM

    The folder heading fantastic   ""To live as a Muslim or not""

    and what I read after first few posts is chit-chatting  ..  puking ..and dogs like me smelling the puke..

    dear jrg., can you give me some rules "HOW TO  LIVE AS MUSLIM" and as a  muslim what a person need to do during his life??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #27 - June 28, 2017, 02:09 PM

    ...

    ...


    Aw, some Muslim guys are so nice. It brings back so many memories. grin12

    I’ll have more sympathy for the two of you than perhaps asbie or Qtian would, since your posts really did transport me, if only for a moment, back to a simpler time in my life. That is until Qtian power blasted away those feelings of nostalgia with his pressure hose of ice cold cynicism and disparagement. Grin

    I read your posts as I checked this morning’s news and waited for my coffee maker to heat up. As I showered, I was reminded of those times with my young ex when we seemed to know nothing more than each other. She was, and to my knowledge still is, a devout Muslimah whose horizons did not extend very far beyond Juzz ‘Amma, Bukhari, Muslim, and Nawawi. Our circles were confined to those who shared our outlook. We were happy in that space, for a time.

    As I lathered and rinsed, my thoughts drifted not to the religion, but to the tenderness of the relationship that existed between us.

    A departure lounge in a small airport in the American Midwest as we learned our flight was delayed. I was bearded and wearing a white thobe. She was in her typical black jilbab and niqab. We were each other’s world. We curled up together in a quiet corner and used each other’s arms as pillows, trying to drift off to sleep.

    A young photographer approached us and asked if she could take our picture as we cuddled there in the privacy of the niche we’d found. In addition to having a puritanical view against photographs that would have led me to decline anyhow, I remember not even understanding why she would want to. Now, remembering the genuine intimacy of that moment, I can appreciate what sort of statement a photograph like that would have made.

    Or the colors shimmering across the water near a park in the city center (downtown as we call it) as the sun set between the buildings. We held each other and swayed back and forth as if a symphony of music were playing that only we both could hear. Let alone that we considered music to be haram; the substitute of silence was sufficient. We lingered on after the sunset, only reluctantly leaving the scene once our collective guilt grew at the thought of pushing the boundaries of Maghrib prayer beyond what Allah would have found acceptable. We left and prayed together, Maghrib then Isha, one prayer after the other.

    After innumerable episodes now of actual concerts, actual dancing, actual grinding with strangers, that moment stands out to me - what seems like a lifetime later - because of its uniqueness.

    I remember my ex talking on the phone to her mother one evening with the latter questioning her as to why she hadn’t spent as much time with her friends lately. “I don’t need to. ‘ibn Bilal’ is my best friend.”

    The description in the Qur’an comes to mind regarding the two of us, as Allah admonished Muhammad’s men against taking back the dowry from their wives in the event of a divorce: “And how could you take it back, when you have both flowed one into the other, and they have taken from you a mighty, solemn vow.” (4:21) Afdhaa is the word used here, and it can also be used to describe the overflowing of a river beyond its banks, or the overflowing of a crowd from one space into another. I think it captures that feeling of a relationship in which one soul overflows into the container of another soul, and vice versa.

    I’ve rambled along too much now as it is, but I do so only to suggest that I do understand where your sentiments are coming from, so I hope the remainder of my post does not come across as too condescending or patronizing. That's not my intention.  

    For the sake of brevity, I’ll just conclude by saying that those days are so long gone. If I transpose my name and experiences for the trajectory of yours here for a moment, there may well be a time when the women you are with simply do not have the capacity to care about those things that have made you you. No one will care about how profound the moment was when you realized that the sun setting in a murky spring was nonsense. No one will understand why the sunset reminds you of the countdown to iftar time, even if you are not fasting.

    My advice, if I should even give any, would be to follow your own conscience. But have awareness that if you choose to abandon the ship you’re on, that sense of being 90% aligned with another human being in the world will be a thing of the distant past.  It’s not a terrible thing. It’s just how it is.
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #28 - June 28, 2017, 11:31 PM

    lol asbie, which bit in particular made you puke?  grin12


    The last two paragraphs, combined with your previous posts.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • To live as a Muslim or not
     Reply #29 - June 28, 2017, 11:33 PM

    Aw, some Muslim guys are so nice. It brings back so many memories. grin12


    Yeah, it's repulsive, isn't it? I mean, I don't know if those guys are like doctors or something, but I'm pretty sure they don't have much money either. Ick.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »