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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hypothetical Islam or Islam For Converts

 (Read 1922 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Hypothetical Islam or Islam For Converts
     OP - January 31, 2015, 04:31 AM

    I know many of us are converts who rejected faith, and for myself, as a native English speaker, I was given loads of fluff (Muhammed: The First Environmentalist) and apologist literature (Why Islam Exalts Women).
    I fell for all that, for well over a decade. Until I looked around at my Ummah and realized no one really gives a shit what the newest ruling from Al Azhar is about the rights of a woman to travel without first taking permission from someone. They care about the bottom line. Men are appointed above women.
    Now, in another thread that is now locked, someone mentioned that a woman is subject to her wali and her husband, rather than her mahram, because I pointed out that if your mahram is good, your life is good, and if your mahram is bad, your life is bad.
    So where does a woman get her husband?
    She does not advertise and take resumes. Her father usually marries her off. If her father is not available, her uncle. Those are her mahram. Her future depends on them, and if they choose badly?
    If she does not like her husband, can she leave? That depends on if her mahram will take her back in. How many women are living on their own in Muslim countries, having walked out on their husbands? In the West we can get divorces so easily. Think about it.
    There are two exceptions to this rule and that is the sole convert and the orphan.
    The sole convert, having been fed all the apologist bullshit, will go and look for a wali. That wali will then do what her mahram would do, should she have one, and marry her off.
    The orphan, if past the age of weaning (for were she before weaning, would then acquire mahram who could then be in a position to marry her off) would become a ward of some wali or another (assuming there is no mahram) who would marry her off.
    It is very rare to be a ward of your wali rather than of your mahram.
    I was replying to what is, rather than what is written. There are far more born Muslims than there are converts like us. The communities I have experience in do not look kindly on women living alone and answering to no one, or on women rejecting their mahram. It is hard to get married to a decent person when you have a bad reputation. Has no one else had this crap hammered into their head? I am sure there are exceptions to every rule, but I was not answering a fiqh question, but a question on women's rights. Women are subject to men. Not strange men. Men who have rights over them and supposedly are obligated to feed them.  When you are born, you are normally born of a man, who is related to other men, who think your existence affects their honor.
    When you are living in a culture where your living is supposed to depend on your mahram who is obligated to feed you, the entire system is skewed towards men, as it is assumed women DO NOT NEED TO WORK. This is a segregated society, the men make the money, and single women are a threat to the culture and to other women, whose husbands can marry four. Look at the countries that live by the Shariah you quote and tell me how many are able to support (give rights to) a population of single working women. NONE.
    Forget the apologist fiqh bullshit you were fed and look around at how we actually lived. Fuck that, look at how Muslim women the world over are living, where silence is consent.
    I would love to be corrected. I would like to hear about a world where a Muslim woman can reject her father and his brothers and her family and marry whomever she wants or not marry at all under a Wali of her own choice with no repercussions at all in a Shariah country. Where all the technical fiqh is applied unconditionally. I want there to be such a world. Because then I won't worry about those women anymore. Seriously.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Hypothetical Islam or Islam For Converts
     Reply #1 - January 31, 2015, 10:44 AM

    I know many of us are converts who rejected faith,..............

    Now, in another thread that is now locked, .............

    Hi., Three ., which thread?  I wonder you can wrap that locked folder's  link  in to those words., Well,  that is a well written  hard hitting opening post on a very important subject that actually hits me and my near & dear.  Apart from all the narrative  bullshit of Islam  which one will find in  other religions also, there is a fundamental problem in Islam w,r,t to inter religious marriages /couples and their future,  which is not there in the narratives of other religions. Irrespective of who converts to what and why., The rules Islam made on inter religious marriages must be attacked head on and they have to be changed.

    It is a big subject., Anyway let me give a bit of today's Arab news  silly narrative on that subject along with a news link that couples to this problem and Islam

    So today's news from this link  says "Wanted: Husbands for women planning overseas studies" and a picture

    An increasing number of Saudi female students are seeking husbands so that they can take up scholarships to study abroad, according to a report in a local publication recently.

    This is happening because students will soon embark on their studies abroad, marking the 10th year of the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques’ Foreign Scholarship Program. Many of these women are seeking to marry because they do not have mahrams — a close relative they cannot marry — to accompany them abroad, the report stated.

    The Saudi government requires all women traveling abroad to be accompanied by their husbands or a mahram, which could be a father, son, brother, or uncle.

    Some of the women have said that this is the only solution to the challenges facing them. They are ideally seeking out single men who are also heading off on studies overseas, the report stated.

    In addition to having spouses abroad, these women would also receive a monthly payment from the Ministry of Higher Education, according to the report.
    Matchmakers have warned that these women are marrying for the wrong reasons. The couples would enter a foreign culture, which could place extra pressure on their unions, they say.

    Umm Fares, a matchmaker, said that many women do not realize the pitfalls of getting married for these reasons. She said that she refuses to deal with anyone seeking a partner under these circumstances because it is un-Islamic.

    The husbands of these women could be enticed by the culture in a foreign country and may even be recruited by terrorist organizations, she said. The dowry for such marriages is the same as regular marriages, which is SR50,000, she said.

    Umm Fares also warned that there have been advertisements appearing on social media sites recently by women claiming that they are rich and seeking husbands.
    Some of these advertisements are fraudulent and run by men to make money.
    The government is monitoring these advertisements, she said.

    why would a women need a Joker mahram just to go abroad and study.. .........


    well that fucking bullshit rule need to be thrown out of Islam..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
  • Hypothetical Islam or Islam For Converts
     Reply #2 - January 31, 2015, 09:32 PM

    Oh, one of the shootist threads where he has a list of questions. ¨Help requested on Islam¨, I haven't got cut and paste capability on this device, sorry!

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Hypothetical Islam or Islam For Converts
     Reply #3 - February 03, 2015, 11:35 AM

    Three, i think you're referring to my post. I think you don't get what "mahram" and "wali" actually mean. A mahram is someone you can't marry. From the root word "haram", that is, it's haram for you to marry. Example. A nephew is a mahram to his aunt. Doesn't mean he has authority over her. A wali is a guardian. For most women, her father is her wali. You mentioned about dads and uncles marrying women off.  When they do that, they act as wali, not as mahram.

    it's sort of like this. Other than the two cases of orphans and converts like you said, your wali is def. your mahram, but not all your mahram are wali. Like all cohens are jews, but not all jews are cohen.

    the reason why fathers, brothers, uncles, etc have power over women is not because they're mahrams, it's because they're walis.

    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
  • Hypothetical Islam or Islam For Converts
     Reply #4 - February 03, 2015, 11:44 AM

    I have seen mahram being used instead of wali multiple times. Perhaps a cultural thing? Like I have heard Somali girls here in Denmark talk about their abayas as burqas (huh?).

    Here "Mahram" is used to mean Wali on a site that sells Hajj and Umrah packages:

    Mahram Rules for Women performing Hajj and Umrah.

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Hypothetical Islam or Islam For Converts
     Reply #5 - February 03, 2015, 11:55 AM

    Yeah, in colloqial usage, people use the term interchangably. Over where i'm at, there are a few people who are confused of the terms mahram and muhrim. A mahram is of course a mahram, but a muhrim is a person who is in the state of ihram. So when you hear stuff like "women should be accompanied by muhrims", you know that the guy meant "mahram".

    "we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
    we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
  • Hypothetical Islam or Islam For Converts
     Reply #6 - May 17, 2017, 08:51 PM

    DaveK open  a folder
     with a heading What do people think of this article? which also belongs to here as in this folder along with Cemb three   wonderful opening post  which she penned almost 2 years back.,  So  let me  add some information  about this 23 year old Gabby Aossey and her types  who converted in to Islam and writes how wonderful Islam was and is for women, women's welfare, women freedom  and women's life ..

    So  this what Gabby Aossey is
    Gabby Aossey is a twenty-two year old senior at the University of California, San Diego studying Communications and Middle Eastern Studies. She was born in Iowa City, Iowa but raised on the beach in Carlsbad, California. Her passions include human rights and social justice, playing music and enjoying the company of the people in her life. When she is not writing and reading, Gabby loves watching Quenten Tarantino movies and New Girl with her puppy, Kevin, and sipping on some tea and agile (hookah).

    and she writes at  with a heading  Muslims Are the True Feminists  with this picture

    here are some nuggets  from her article /news blog...
     If we want to be respected as women and taken seriously in all our endeavors we should look to a new source; Muslim women. Muslim women, as well as Muslim men, see every body as a sacred temple, especially the female body. Opposed to exposing themselves, it is through modesty.    When we think of modern feminists we should stray away from the new American trends and start looking to what we have always thought as a contradiction; Muslim feminists.

    Contrary to American popular belief, Islam has a culture and history of women empowerment. In the Qur’an, which is believed to be God’s word told to Prophet Muhammad, women and men are described as equals in everyday actions and responsibilities. When it comes to family, charity, children, sex, and much more, a man and a woman have the same duties and that is to continue on the straight path.

    Early Islamic women kept this idea alive. The first Muslim woman was Khadija, Mohammed’s first wife. Without her influence, Islam might not have emerged as successfully as it did. Khadija was a business woman and a land owner in the lands of Arabia. When Mohammed was given revelations, it was Khadija that ensured him that he was not going insane, but that he was a chosen one. It was Khadija that pushed Mohammed to listen to God and the angels that were trying to communicate with him and to not run in fear. It was Khadija that gave Muhammad the support and confidence in his development as becoming God’s last prophet. Khadija, a woman, was the strength that allowed Islam to fully bloom. Just this one example gives us a view on how true Muslim women are; outspoken, driven, certain and courageous, the epitome of a feminist.

    So it’s no surprise to see Muslim woman today modeling themselves after these prominent female figures. Muslim girls look towards these instances of strength for guidance in this scary, patriarchal society. These modern women are not afraid to go against the grain in the name of their belief like wearing the hijab to covey their religious devotion. Hijab is the headscarf that is worn by Muslim woman and no; it is not supposed to be forced on them by their fathers and husbands. Wearing or not wearing the Hijab reflects a Muslim woman’s own a personal choice.  

    well that is otherside of story on "Women In Islam"  from 23 year old convert from UCLA ..USA..  And that was all about Alleged  life of Prophet of Islam   and how good he was  with women folks when he  was married  to  Khadija ...

    Question is

    Did she read Quran?
    Did she read Hadith?
    Did she read Islamic history?

    Did she read books from any faith??

    Any ways this converted 23 year old  Gabby Aossey apparently a Staff Writer at Al Jadid Magazine Greater New York City Area Writing and Editing  of Al Jadid Magazine, The Huffington Post  ...

    I wonder whether she will lose her  job if she writes some quran verses and hadith sayings

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
  • Hypothetical Islam or Islam For Converts
     Reply #7 - May 17, 2017, 09:44 PM

    Let me add some more   news clips/blogs by women folks in Islam.. but before that this is the news about   dina ali lasloom Saudi woman fleeing country 'detained at Manila airport, wrapped up like a mummy and forced to return'

    A Saudi woman was reportedly detained at Manila airport where she was wrapped up like a mummy and forced to return home as she tried to seek asylum in Australia.

    Dina Ali Lasloom, 24, was said to be travelling from Kuwait when she was intercepted in the Philippines on a stopover by authorities.

    According to reports, Dina chose to escape her homeland to live as a refugee in Australia where she hoped to receive asylum.

    In Saudi Arabia women are banned from driving, allowed little contact with men and are unable to marry or leave the country without permission from their father or husband.

    Activists claimed Dina's passport was confiscated at Manila's Ninoy Aquino International Airport before she was forced to board a flight to Saudi Arabia where it is feared she may be murdered.  Her arms and legs were said to be bound, her mouth duct-taped shut while her body was apparently wrapped in bed sheets.  Videos were posted of a woman, purported to be Dina, arguing with airport officials as she is heard shouting "that's not my father" and "you're not helping, you don't know them," in reference to her family.

    Saudi campaigners reported Dina was seen arriving in the country in a wheelchair as her fate remains unknown.

    and there is video clip of her at Manila airport at that link..

    anyways about this....the Gabby Aossey  types and their islam

    ISLAM IN PERSPECTIVE  Women’s empowerment in Islamic system of life by  DR. HASEEB AHMED

    5 Reasons Why Islam Still Empowers Women  by  Asma Shah  At University of Maryland College Park

    The Islam that empowers women Samina Yasmeen   Washington post

    How the Prophet Empowered Women By Shaikh Ahmad Kutty  islamic institute of toronto

    and watch this

    So you became stupid on the way ...and turned in to Islam.. You are indeed good news for yourself if not to Islam and Muslims  but..but we must realize ,,she is telling something important for Americans   watch it....

    Hmmm you are with KING....KING.....KING...Honoured for "Versatile Artistry & Social Service" and Award Presented by Ms. Anushaka Ranjan and His Excellency Suhail Mohd. Al Zarooni

    You stupid on the way in life you forgot your mother and grandmother  but it is ok., I think it is actually good for Muslims  and Islam and more importantly for  people like you entering into the faith

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
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