Opinion: Black Lives Matter is a Terrorist Group

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Reply #90 - March 11, 2017, 01:59 PM

What I am contending, right now, are claims that the prisons are clogged with black people because of "culture", and also that sentencing is not applied without bias.
bogart believes the issues are cultural, and I contend oppression.
He asked for data, I gave it, and threw in my personal observations.

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Reply #91 - March 11, 2017, 03:58 PM

Quote from: three on March 11, 2017, 03:31 AM
https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/141027_iachr_racial_disparities_aclu_submission_0.pdf

http://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/color-of-justice-racial-and-ethnic-disparity-in-state-prisons/
(I am in one of the worst five states)

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/reports/racial-disparity-sentencing

I don't know how you have never seen any of this. Every time another study comes out confirming this, it gets into the news. Unless you are reading Breitbart or other like publications, this is all readily available information and the data is overwhelming. There is no way this could be blamed on culture.

Thank you.

The crack/cocaine act is not oppression nor racism. ACLU is not providing the background information to show it was the result of social events and outcry, the support it had from both the black community and members of congress. No black member of congress even made the claim it was racist to my knowledge.

Still reading and cross referencing. Just that one stood out to me.
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Reply #92 - March 11, 2017, 04:51 PM

I am more concerned with sentencing bias regarding race than I am with drug laws. Drug laws when passed target drug dealers and users but what happens here is that the white people get a slap on the wrist and those of color get put away. Combine higher incidences of arrest with harsher sentencing by race and you have a snowball effect. It's almost as though prisons were a business... well, they are, actually.
But that's another conversation, I suppose.

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Reply #93 - March 11, 2017, 10:39 PM

ITT : Certain users mentally masturbating over issues they'll never actually understand.

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Reply #94 - March 11, 2017, 11:16 PM

Well, this is a huge problem here (rural USA). People assume no one will understand the issues and so no one explains them to anyone else and Trump becomes president- even though his proposed policies are going to make their lives harder pretty much across the board.
Maybe if someone had pointed out to them that their pregnancies and cancers and special needs children were covered under one president's policies and not another they might have gotten it.
You just never know who needs more information so they can change their mind. Especially regarding issues more prevalent in areas they have never lived by/in which is the case here in farm country. So I err on the side of caution, unless I am at a barbecue. Then I just leave. Not that I like barbecues very much.

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Reply #95 - March 11, 2017, 11:21 PM

Quote
So I err on the side of caution

You seem like the type of person who needs to be around me when I'm inebriated.

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Reply #96 - March 12, 2017, 12:48 AM

Quote from: three on March 11, 2017, 01:59 PM
What I am contending, right now, are claims that the prisons are clogged with black people because of "culture", and also that sentencing is not applied without bias.

My take on the question of why there are so many black people in jail:
Quote from: gal_from_usa on January 16, 2017, 11:51 AM
There is a self-repeating cycle that started decades ago and has carried on for a very long time with police, the poor black community, and violence. Picking a point in the cycle to start from is hard but let's start at random black kid A's childhood. A is growing up in a house without a father because his dad is in jail. His dad got a 20 year mandatory sentence for crack cocaine. His mom is doing her best, but it's not easy being a single parent and job options are pretty scarce in her neighborhood. Her welfare got cut by some Republican politicians as a political strategy to get more votes from the angry white man demographic. It's not like the dad left enough money for the family to get by before he was thrown in jail, so A is going to bed hungry sometimes. Before long, A is having problems in school. He's acting up, having a hard time with concentrating, and being mean to other kids. At the teacher's recommendation, the school nurse gives him a referral to a less-than-competent psychiatrist who gives him a prescription for Aderall--five more patients like this, and the psychiatrist is going to get a paid vacation to a "medical conference" in Florida from Pfizer (or some other drug manufacturer).

But A doesn't need Adderall, he needs supportive parenting. He needs to deal with his anger about not having his dad around. He needs to have food on the table. He needs to stop feeling like he's the problem in everyone's lives. He needs to not feel like a burden. So he starts selling his Adderall. People start asking him for other kinds of pills. He doesn't have them, but he knows someone who does. He starts falling in with a bad crowd; this causes more stress at home because his mom doesn't want to see him go down the same road as his dad did. So he starts spending less time at home. He gets arrested a few times for some petty things. He gets a girl pregnant. Baby C is born. A tries to clean up his act and be there for his kid, but by this point, he's got several convictions and has spent some time in jail. He doesn't have a lot of job opportunities available to him, just like his mom didn't. So he does his best to provide for his young family, and that means taking odd jobs wherever he can get them. Maybe some petty theft. He gets caught again. Now he's gotten enough convictions to get a "three strikes" conviction: the next time he gets arrested, he's going to be in jail for a minimum of fifty years, no matter what he gets convicted of. He doesn't want to cross the police's radar but he knows with his past convictions and the crime rate in his neighborhood, plus the stop and frisk policy, he's likely to get stopped at any time, frisked, maybe arrested. He's afraid. He's angry. He doesn't want to leave his kid alone like his dad left him. He wants to be there, he wants to be a provider. He knows if he gets arrested, he'll lose everything. It's not just his freedom, it's his family. It's his kid. But there aren't any job opportunities for a convict. There aren't any jobs in his neighborhood. So he ends up going back to the one way he knows how to get money: crime. He gets spotted and resists arrest. Tries to get away. Tries to escape. Police officer B shoots.

From the police side, police officer B probably isn't a racist guy. He wanted to work in the inner city black community because he wants to help, he figured he's a good guy, maybe he can help some people turn their lives around. But he's still got a job to do. He sees a guy breaking the law. He feels bad about it, but this guy has a criminal history and is resisting arrest. He knows that the laws are unfair but he also knows that his jail is full of black people and he's always in court about drugs, theft, and gang violence. He sometimes wonders deep inside, "If black people aren't more violent, then why are there so many of them in jail?" He feels really bad about even asking that question, even to himself. He hears stories from his buddies on the force, stories about them having knives and guns pulled on them. He knows an officer, a sweet black woman, who got shot. She left behind some kids. So when A tried to get away, when he reached for his weapon, B panicked. He didn't have a lot of training, he didn't know how to defuse this situation, he just knew he had to act if he didn't want to end up in a body bag. It was him or A.

Baby C is now growing up in a fatherless home. His mom does her best....

So it's not that any one person in that situation was a racist. It's not that any one person was out to get someone else, it's not like they'd started their day thinking "I'm gunna kill someone today." And it's hard to know where in this cycle to put the blame. It's hard to know where to in the cycle to intervene. Whose fault is A's death, anyway? Sure, Officer B pulled the trigger, but it's not like he wanted to. It's not like that's why he joined the police force. It's not like he was a racist. It's not like he was responsible for A's feeling of desperation or hopelessness.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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Reply #97 - March 12, 2017, 01:50 AM

Quote from: Qtian on March 11, 2017, 11:21 PM
You seem like the type of person who needs to be around me when I'm inebriated.

I actually did that in exchange for temporary lodgings in high school. Kids threw a party when their parents went out of town, I managed the drunks and held their keys til morning and I got a place to crash for a few days.
I would say I am exactly that type.

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Reply #98 - March 12, 2017, 02:03 AM

Quote from: gal_from_usa on March 12, 2017, 12:48 AM
My take on the question of why there are so many black people in jail:

Yeah. What you describe is part of institutionalized racism. Oppression gives these sorts of results.

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Reply #99 - March 12, 2017, 05:04 AM

Quote from: three on March 12, 2017, 02:03 AM
Yeah. What you describe is part of institutionalized racism.

/facepalm

Who was the racist in the story? The three strikes law and the mandatory minimum sentences, plus the drug laws, are arguably institutional racism, but they aren't the fault of any one person and they're not inherently racist. Also, although it is difficult, it is possible for A or C to not go into crime. It was A's crimes that got him the criminal record. It was A's crimes that gave him the two strikes, and it was A's two strikes that made him reach for his weapon and try to flee the scene. Even though they're enforcing some laws that *may* have been rooted in racism, they're not themselves bad people or racists because of it. There's no one person or law you can point to and call racist in that scenario.

So, are the institutions racist? I don't know, I don't see how you can make the claim that any one institution or person was acting in a way motivated by racism. That's what makes it so stupid to just say "reeeeee institutional racism" because honestly, who was being racist? And who was breaking laws? A and B both made choices that resulted in A's death, but most of those choices were made by A and it was over a period of years before the run in with B. So while B pulled the trigger, it was A's choices, A's crimes, and A's history that made him do that.

What do you do to fix the situation? "Educate B not to be racist" isn't going to help. "Take B's gun" isn't going to help. "Repeal the drug laws and make legal dispensaries so people don't have to buy from pushers" would help; "repeal the 3 strikes rule" would help; but they wouldn't fix all the problems. They wouldn't fix the lack of jobs. They wouldn't fix the hopelessness; they'd just provide one less source of revenue for A to pursue. They wouldn't fix A's fatherlessness and lack of direction in life.

And that's the real problem: no one person is being racist against black people, no one law is responsible, and no one person can fix the underlying problems like lack of jobs, hopelessness, and fatherlessness in the urban black community. It's overly simplistic and inaccurate to just say "institutionalized racism" as if we could educate or repeal the problems away. The problems aren't one-sided, just coming from white people against black people, or just coming from police against the urban black population, or from rich politicians against poor districts. They're also coming from the urban poor black community. That subculture also has to shoulder part of the responsibility and become part of the solution.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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Reply #100 - March 12, 2017, 01:35 PM

Welfare cuts or a lack of welfare. No job growth or programs for job growth and training. Convictions for small crimes, not probation or rehab like suburban white kids are given for their teen and young adult crimes. You said yourself the school system referred him to drugs and not a youth program or counseling or sports or etc. He was passed over.
You offered a story of a kid but you offered no comparisons at all to the kid across town in the white suburbs, how can racism be determined properly without this contrast? You really expect us to believe that the white kid in the suburbs across town whose dad went away for crack cocaine is going to have the exact same life and no opportunities as this kid in the city? That a white kid won't have an easier time securing one of those rare jobs or that there are not more jobs in the suburbs?
No one law is responsible. No one person can fix it. That is why we use the term "institutionalized". It's not a racist person but a racist system.
You started at one point in one kid's life but the institutionalized racism did not. That child was born under it, as was his father. You can't blame a child for not having resources available to him that are available to other children in different places. You can, however, change the laws, allot resources, and advocate for him. Blame simply ignores the real issue.

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Reply #101 - March 13, 2017, 07:51 AM

Quote from: three on March 12, 2017, 01:35 PM
No one law is responsible. No one person can fix it. That is why we use the term "institutionalized". It's not a racist person but a racist system.
You started at one point in one kid's life but the institutionalized racism did not. That child was born under it, as was his father. You can't blame a child for not having resources available to him that are available to other children in different places. You can, however, change the laws, allot resources, and advocate for him. Blame simply ignores the real issue.

You're taking away the agency of people who make bad choices. Bad choices are still choices, and the point I'm trying to get at is that it's a subculture that glorifies "thug life", crime, and drugs, just as much or perhaps more than the police or any particular law, that causes the problems. If it was just racism that was to blame, why don't Asian Americans have the same problems? Why don't Jewish Americans have the same problems? Why don't Hispanic Americans have the same problems?

You can argue that the laws are unfair or unfairly applied, that government officials or social services are biased, that there's an inadequate amount of support for the black community, whatever you want--but if your argument does not take into account the agency of black people and their capacity to commit crimes, then it's not going to have the desired effect, no matter how far you push it. There has to be an organic change from within the urban black community to distance themselves from those within the community who commit acts of violence and criminal activity. Until that happens, no amount of external changes will solve the problem.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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Reply #102 - March 13, 2017, 06:20 PM

I don't know, maybe those other ethnic groups don't have the same problems because they were not enslaved? Of the Chinese present here today, just a wee bit are descendants of slaves- in comparison to the black community.
Of the African Americans here today, how many are descendants of slavery? What did that do to their cultural heritage? What about their family structures? This was a very broken community that did not see much good from those in power, our government has been far less beneficial to them historically than to the other minorities you have mentioned.

We have an entire population of people who are descended from horrific conditions and who were not even protected by law until fifty years ago and we expect them to thrive on our broken promises despite the oppression continuing in other ways? My mother was part of the desegregation process, for crying out loud, and she is living still and nowhere near expiring. How many generations since separate drinking fountains? In my family, two. Mine and my children.
Maybe if we started with reparations we could make some headway.

You are asking for broken children to make healthy decisions. It sometimes happens, but it is not realistic for all or even most. My own children have had to undergo intensive therapies for four years just to recover from a bit of abuse so they don't go around hurting other people. I don't even know if they are done with it yet.

Are these children in your example being provided with support so they can make good choices? You said no. Whose fault is that? Not theirs. How are they supposed to organize with not much? No job, no money unless by illegal means, no education, no futures. They are supposed to agitate for change knowing that they are risking even more by agitating? What happens when they do agitate, as untrained protestors? Do they get sympathy? I think we all know the answer to that.

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Reply #103 - March 13, 2017, 09:54 PM

Quote from: three on March 13, 2017, 06:20 PM
I don't know, maybe those other ethnic groups don't have the same problems because they were not enslaved? Of the Chinese present here today, just a wee bit are descendants of slaves- in comparison to the black community.

Slavery can't be the only answer; if it was, why don't we have Irish ghettos and gangs? Why don't we see black ghettos and gangs in Britain? Or for that matter, why don't we see these problems in Brazil or China?

Quote from: three on March 13, 2017, 06:20 PM

This was a very broken community that did not see much good from those in power, our government has been far less beneficial to them historically than to the other minorities you have mentioned.

Bullshit. The same laws that affected black people equally affected other minorities. And what about Native Americans? They arguably had it far worse than black populations, but I don't see them glorifying violent crime.

Quote from: three on March 13, 2017, 06:20 PM
We have an entire population of people who are descended from horrific conditions and who were not even protected by law until fifty years ago and we expect them to thrive on our broken promises despite the oppression continuing in other ways?

No; I expect them to do their best and not just succumb to the temptation of going into lives of crime. Native Americans often turn to alcohol (not saying this because it's a stereotype I see on TV, I'm saying it because of the data. But they don't glorify violent crime and consider it normal to be dead or in jail by 30 like many urban black youth.

Quote from: three on March 13, 2017, 06:20 PM
My mother was part of the desegregation process, for crying out loud, and she is living still and nowhere near expiring. How many generations since separate drinking fountains? In my family, two. Mine and my children.
Maybe if we started with reparations we could make some headway.

>Implying my family wasn't also involved
>Implying my grandparents didn't have to work for desegregation
>Implying I would ask for reparations based on what my grandparents and great-grandparents went through trying to build lives for themselves in a racist country as opposed to going back home to their near-certain deaths

Quote from: three on March 13, 2017, 06:20 PM
You are asking for broken children to make healthy decisions. It sometimes happens, but it is not realistic for all or even most.

And what about their parents? What about their grandparents? People don't stay children forever. I don't think it is smart to infantilize adult African Americans because they made bad choices and pretend as if they can't know any better or that this is the only option available to them. I think that marginalizes the ones who HAVE made it out of that cycle of violence. And that it sets the bar too low for the rest...google "soft bigotry of low expectations".

Quote from: three on March 13, 2017, 06:20 PM
They are supposed to agitate for change knowing that they are risking even more by agitating?

They're not supposed to loot, set shit on fire, beat white people for being white, and kill cops, that's for sure. So if that's your definition of "agitate for change", then no.

Quote from: three on March 13, 2017, 06:20 PM
What happens when they do agitate, as untrained protestors?

You mean when they riot, set shit on fire, beat white people for being white, and kill cops?

Quote from: three on March 13, 2017, 06:20 PM
Do they get sympathy? I think we all know the answer to that.

You mean when they riot, set shit on fire, beat white people for being white, and kill cops?

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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Reply #104 - March 13, 2017, 10:44 PM

Quote
Slavery can't be the only answer; if it was, why don't we have Irish ghettos and gangs? Why don't we see black ghettos and gangs in Britain? Or for that matter, why don't we see these problems in Brazil or China?

Are you truly this ignorant? I don’t mean that as an ad hominem; I’m referencing the actual ignorance on display in your posts right now. I understand your phobia of being beaten to a pulp by a mob of angry black guys might be clouding your judgment a bit. Still, it’s hard for me to wrap my head around this level of ignorance.

OF COURSE there were Irish ghettos and gangs in America, just like there were Italian gangs and Jewish ghettos. The ghetto is typically where you started off when you were a poor immigrant to a big city in a far away land, and organized crime was often a source of income for marginalized communities who were not immediately integrated into society. I have to hope your knowledge of American history is at least sufficient enough for me not to have to cite examples here.

The difference – and this is a huge difference – is that in a racist society, the groups I mentioned above would, after a generation or two, be integrated into the overall society as “White,” or at least be able to pass as “White” when it mattered, whereas African Americans bear the mark of their history in the very hue of their faces. This leads to all sorts of discrimination and behavior confirmation that has been engrained in our society and that we are struggling to break free from. This is quite a different scenario from other groups in other cultures that were not legally segregated along racial lines up until a generation ago.

As for people “glorifying” “thug-life,” then I’d love to ask you WHO exactly is doing this glorification? Are you talking about hip hop music? The media? Who? And who in turn is the biggest consumer of this “glorification.” I won’t even get into that point until you answer who the hell you’re even talking about.

And, dear god, I’m not even going to waste my time picking through your posts about the enforcement of laws, particularly non-violent drug offences. All I will ask is that you reference statistics on the use of drugs – which make up a significant amount of the “crime” that Black people are convicted for, and compare that against drug usage in the rest of non-colored America.
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Reply #105 - March 13, 2017, 11:04 PM

I've been trying to find this documentary I saw on African American kids in prison a few years back. It was shown in the uk. It showed how young African American children were more likely to be jailed for petty crime then a white kid of the same age. And the crimes were really ridiculous. I mean it really destroyed these kids. does anyone in the uk remember? was it a horizon docu?

anyway. a few days ago there was an article on black people being wrongly convicted. can't find the article I read. but the daily mail says pretty much the same.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4289164/Black-people-likely-wrongly-convicted.html
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Reply #106 - March 14, 2017, 12:41 AM

Quote from: gal_from_usa on March 13, 2017, 09:54 PM
Slavery can't be the only answer; if it was, why don't we have Irish ghettos and gangs? Why don't we see black ghettos and gangs in Britain? Or for that matter, why don't we see these problems in Brazil or China?

Bullshit. The same laws that affected black people equally affected other minorities. And what about Native Americans? They arguably had it far worse than black populations, but I don't see them glorifying violent crime.

No; I expect them to do their best and not just succumb to the temptation of going into lives of crime. Native Americans often turn to alcohol (not saying this because it's a stereotype I see on TV, I'm saying it because of the data. But they don't glorify violent crime and consider it normal to be dead or in jail by 30 like many urban black youth.

(Clicky for piccy!)
>Implying my family wasn't also involved
>Implying my grandparents didn't have to work for desegregation
>Implying I would ask for reparations based on what my grandparents and great-grandparents went through trying to build lives for themselves in a racist country as opposed to going back home to their near-certain deaths

And what about their parents? What about their grandparents? People don't stay children forever. I don't think it is smart to infantilize adult African Americans because they made bad choices and pretend as if they can't know any better or that this is the only option available to them. I think that marginalizes the ones who HAVE made it out of that cycle of violence. And that it sets the bar too low for the rest...google "soft bigotry of low expectations".

They're not supposed to loot, set shit on fire, beat white people for being white, and kill cops, that's for sure. So if that's your definition of "agitate for change", then no.

You mean when they riot, set shit on fire, beat white people for being white, and kill cops?

You mean when they riot, set shit on fire, beat white people for being white, and kill cops?

You said the child in your example did not have parental guidance or even a role model, that the authority figures in his life instead introduced him to drug dependency to solve his problems. How does a child mature into a responsible adult without any responsible adults? You imply there is some miracle of maturation where a person makes all the right choices and does all the right things without having seen the benefits- if there are any for them.

I did not imply any such thing regarding your family. If your parents were employed by the government to desegregate the school system, how would I know? This was my mother's job, and I know for a fact she was not the only employee- thank goodness. What I am pointing out is that this part of her career path, and she is my mother. Not my grandmother or great grandmother or even a story in a history book, but is a living person who can tell me about it. Meaning desegregation just happened, a generation before mine, in living memory. We had a lot of work to do after that law was changed and the ball was apparently dropped, if the scenario you describe is how our black population is perceived

Also if we had dropped our black population into reservations instead of inner cities things might have turned out differently and more Native style. But if you think violence is not glorified in every race in our society you are sadly mistaken. Watch the news and the movies. In every building in my town someone is packing, and hardly any of them are people of color. That's not for fashion.

Also the KKK is known for beating people because they are black, setting things on fire, but they don't beat up the cops because often they ARE cops, and that was how it was when I lived in the next county to their headquarters twenty years ago. Who has been ambushing and killing cops? You claim all the perps are of a certain ethnicity? That's not what I have been hearing. Regarding rioting I have seen scary crowds of white people start tearing things up because their sports team WON. Sick and pointless violence is not indicative of race.

We ought to treat our victimized populations as they are, victims of trauma- in this case, generation upon generation of trauma. We should be offering supports, not demanding that they find all their resources magically from somewhere.

And lastly, you claim that the laws effect every race equally. Not in the USA, they don't. Ideally, they would. But that is not what has happened here. There is tons of data to the contrary, showing white people get off easier than people of color when it comes to sentencing.

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Reply #107 - March 14, 2017, 10:24 AM

Quote from: three on March 11, 2017, 01:59 PM
What I am contending, right now, are claims that the prisons are clogged with black people because of "culture", and also that sentencing is not applied without bias.
bogart believes the issues are cultural, and I contend oppression.
He asked for data, I gave it, and threw in my personal observations.

I think it's a false dichotomy. The history of racism in the US is long and complicated. The forces of oppression helped to create a culture of poverty and disenfranchisment. This doesn't mean you can't hold individual people responsible for their actions. But the way this rhetorical dichotomy is set up is fundamentally racist. It seeks to assign blame to one group of people versus another along racial lines rather then understanding the context of historical forces that created the situation.

As far as BLM, you're talking about a large, grassroots groups which will have people with very different ideological views.

Let's also please not continue to water down the word "terrorist." A terrorist is someone who commits (or plans or facillitates) an act of symbolic violence against a semi-random civilian target for the purpose of instilling fear in a general population in promotion of some ideology.

Protests aren't terrorism. Storming a political conference isn't terrorism. Civil disobedience isn't terrorism.

As far as the police, unfortunately, the media tend to focus on issues where there is some potential degree of controversy. This is because the media is incentivized by controversy (people arguing makes for clicks and more pieces.) Cases where the police are clearly in the wrong and all but the most staunch authoritarians would agree rarely make the national media. I am a member of a group called Copblock, also a grassroots group, who record police whenever possible as a deterrent and as a means to expose police abuses. Police misconduct and killing are far more common (it happens on a daily basis) then most people are generally aware of ( and you can go to copblock's site or facebook page to see the documentation). While more white people are victims in total, black people and other minorities constitute a higher percentage of victims per their population numbers. BLM is a reaction to this, to a feeling of being under a foreign occupation. I do think the social justice rhetoric isn't helpful, as the key is for people who see black people as the "other" to not perceive these problems as something that are happening to a different group of people, but rather to fellow americans (or ultimately fellow humans.)

I actually think only highlighting the violence against black people is a tactical mistake. If people who saw black people as "others" saw videos of black people and white people both being victimized, and the thought became "that could happen to me or my child" it might actually create empathy and help to "de-other" black people in their mind. Of course, social justice ideology stands against this (the view isn't actually coherent, but it simultaneously claims any white person who is anyway racist as an eternal enemy who no peace ca ever be made with, while also claiming all white people are racist and must always repent of this.. hey wait does this sound familiar...) and thinks empathizing is a bad thing because ... it doesn't really matter, my point is I think they're wrong, it would take too long to get in to all the weird tautologies and orwellian contradictions there.

But I think this discussion kind of has that as the invisible elephant in the room. And it can be easy to fall into dichotomous thinking. Like, since some people who say they are against racism go about it in a really horrible way, doesn't mean racism isn't a real problem that needs to be addressed. I actually think the sjws and the alt-right are two sides of the same coin who are feeding off and radicalizing each other, but that's a whole other discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlk7o5T56iw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlY9C6pzxKc
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Reply #108 - March 14, 2017, 10:37 AM

"slavery can't be the only answer; if it was Why don't we see black ghettos and gangs in Britain? Or for that matter, why don't we see these problems in Brazil or China?

Bullshit. The same laws that affected black people equally affected other minorities. And what about Native Americans? They arguably had it far worse than black populations, but I don't see them glorifying violent crime.

No; I expect them to do their best and not just succumb to the temptation of going into lives of crime. Native Americans often turn to alcohol (not saying this because it's a stereotype I see on TV, I'm saying it because of the data. But they don't glorify violent crime and consider it normal to be dead or in jail by 30 like many urban black youth. "

No one thinks racism ended with slavery. Black people only achieved legal equality in the 1960's.

, "why don't we have Irish ghettos and gangs?"

You did and you do. There are STILL poor irish urban areas with gangs in the US. See South Philadelphia and South Boston.

"Bullshit. The same laws that affected black people equally affected other minorities. And what about Native Americans? They arguably had it far worse than black populations, but I don't see them glorifying violent crime."

That's because you don't see them at all. They live on reservations where there are high levels of crime. Rural areas, not urban, different cultural histories (remember black people who were brought here had all ties to their previous culture erased)

"But they don't glorify violent crime and consider it normal to be dead or in jail by 30 like many urban black youth"

I'd also like to point out, since I'm sure you've never actually lived in any urban black neighborhoods that the vast majority do not consider it to be normal or dead in jail by age 30. There are specific bad areas, and anyone who can get out of those areas does. For those who cannot, often joining a gang is seen as the only means of safety or the only possibility for social status. The "those that cannot" group often come from absence, abusive, and/or drug addicted parents. I am making some assumptions about you, but I doubt you would be able to tell an actual bad neighborhood from one that is simply lower class and black, from outside large areas may look similar, but they are not.

While the people in those neighborhoods do have a different culture from you (more distrusting of police, more tolerant of marijuana use, other things) they are not all full of violent gang bangers like you imagine.

I personally never felt safer then when I lived in a black neighborhood in west philly. People were neighborly, looked out for each other, and no one ever called the cops. Unlike many white neighborhoods I've been in where people would call the police on me just because i "looked suspicious" being in there (my) neighborhood. And the cops often will treat you like a criminal in these instances.
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Reply #109 - March 14, 2017, 05:43 PM

The major cultural difference between African-Americans and every other ethnic group in America whether it's white, yellow or brown is the huge percentage of black babies born to single mothers with the biological father partially or entirely absent. The percentage for blacks is 73% last time I checked. Second highest is whites (around 38%). And white children born to single mothers do almost as poorly in terms of poor school performance, criminal behavior, drug and alcohol abuse and low income as their black counterparts.

Farakhan's Nation of Islam calls this out, as do American conservatives both black and white. But since the 'Great Society' programs made husbands and fathers less essential the levels of illegitimate (to use an antiquated term) births persist.

It's always seemed to me too that Black culture is more matriarchal than patriarchal. The women are often mentally stronger than the men, and appeared in the corporate world in large numbers before the men did. African-American women have done more heavy lifting in terms of raising and supporting children than their men, and have carried burdens less common to women in other communities.
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Reply #110 - March 14, 2017, 05:44 PM

Quote from: three on March 14, 2017, 12:41 AM

Also if we had dropped our black population into reservations instead of inner cities things might have turned out differently and more Native style.

There are far more factors involving the changes in demographics of urban centers than simply dumping people. Prior to WW2 these populations were predominately white. Suburbia didn't really exist as it does today. After WW2 the Federal government passed the GI Bills which provided privileged access to loans to veterans. However the application process was done at the local and state level which enabled racial bias to play a part. The US military had racist polices itself. Very few combat units were black or mixed, few blacks were put on combat duty with most being assigned to secondary roles. Keep in mind unless receiving a battlefield promotion most officers had a form higher education while enlisted men didn't. For the enlisted men these loans were a huge privilege which enabled many change their previous class identification.

There were about 1 million blacks in the military, mostly in army, but only 125k were eligible for the loans due to treating combat roles differently than noncombat roles. Only about 25k applied and were granted access to these loans. However even with the loans individuals still had to find places to use it. For those attempting to enroll in higher education they were dependent on location which limited choices to low end or unaccredited schools due to segregation and/or denial based on race. There was no equal opportunities within society. The white veterans which formed the majority of the 16+ million had far more equal access to the loan and opportunities to use it. This gave rise to a larger middle class in a suburban setting as the economy changes and the loans. As vehicles become more accessible more people could work in the city but live in the new suburban developments. As the white population served during the war and migrated outside of the city after there was another migration taking place. The war itself created required a massive industrial complex which was lightly developed in the south compared to north, northeast and west. Millions moved to these industrial cities to work in these factories as many offered far better pay. A problem with this migration was city planning.

Unlike the imposed segregation by law in the south these "host" communities used economics and zoning laws to control population movement. City planners restricted development in certain areas in order to attract specific incomes thus class. However they divided income classes into sub-classes sorted by racial minorities by strict economic statistics. So certain areas offered low cost housing were more appealing to blacks and latinos while other areas were cost just enough to deter minorities but attract low classes whites. LA and NYC are prime examples.
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Reply #111 - March 14, 2017, 11:39 PM

And that, elegantly put, is an example of racial oppression- from military to urban planning.

Don't let Hitler have the street.
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Reply #112 - March 16, 2017, 08:56 PM

The only reason I knew about it is due to being a military history buff.
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Reply #113 - March 16, 2017, 11:40 PM

Well, there is your proof. The military is not an isolated culture. It shares with civilian life, and is not independent of it. We have institutionalized racism, cultural racism, and only a generation of "legal equality" on our books.
That sounds like a good case to me.

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Reply #114 - March 17, 2017, 09:51 AM

Yes the world in 1945-50 was institutionally and unapologetically racist. 70 years later we've come thru a transfer of wealth (welfare, food stamps, affirmative action, subsidized housing, voting rights ... etc) worth $20 trillion by some estimates.

My home country fought 2 world wars in the 20th century costing 1.5 million lives and trillions of national treasure to defeat German militarism and nazism. I remember going to the grocery store with my mum handing over ration cards right into the early 1950s, and driving thru a London that still bore the scars of nazi terror bombing of civilian areas. I could bear a grudge towards Germans and sit around feeling sorry for myself. I don't know anyone who did that ... thankfully.

I've just read the Silk Road which taught me the extent of white slavery during the medieval era. The racial identity 'Slav' derives from the time in which millions of Europeans were traded and sold mostly to middle eastern Muslim buyers, usually by Viking slave traders. There are historians who argue that European development was seriously retarded during this period because of the loos of people and the cost of fending off aggressive Islam. Like most on this board I have deep concerns about political Islam, but that has to do with what I see happening today, not the distant past.

Time to move on.
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Reply #115 - March 17, 2017, 01:07 PM

Quote from: bogart on March 10, 2017, 03:48 PM
Yes because asking for evidence is a white thing and irrational.

Unlike drive by comment which provide nothing to the argument nor even demonstrate their own points have merit. You have yet to establish any point you merely hand wave it away followed by a dose of racism. Try again.

By the way I'm not a liberal. I gave it up a few years ago due to people like yourself using racism to cover for their lack of evidence.

Judging your defensiveness and your reactionary tone in this stank I take it you are one of them then.

Great to know.

Also people that are fond of using those words like "evidence" or "rational" constantly with their trying style of argument usually tend to be the ones that are full of bullshit. Nothing new about you.

Keep talking all that jive because you are just revealing your real self in this forum more and more. It ain't that hard to figure out a white liberal nowadays.

"I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

"No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
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Reply #116 - March 17, 2017, 01:10 PM

Quote from: Qtian on March 11, 2017, 10:39 PM
ITT : Certain users mentally masturbating over issues they'll never actually understand.

Priviledge is a hell of a drug. Can't wait to read some comments about colonialism and slavery soon in this joint.

"I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

"No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
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Reply #117 - March 17, 2017, 01:25 PM

Welp, good to know your attitude towards evidence. And the presumption of innocence and the principle of charity. I don't know about bogart, but since you (Cato, three, and possibly others) have made a determination about my moral character, I feel no need to continue arguing the point. Like I said, I'm not emotional about this topic. I'll just throw out there that even though I'm sure you are completely positive that if only everyone would adhere to your ideology, all the problems of the world would go away, and even though I'm sure you see evidence in support of your worldview all around you in everything and everyone, especially the people who are interested in not becoming soldiers in your ideological war, the sad fact is even if you were 100% right you'd never be able to make the whole world fit your ideology, no matter how hard you bullied or impugned the dissenters. As more and more elections are showing, the majority of the population disagrees with you, and chances are they never will get on board with your Great Project.

My grandmother taught me to pick my battles and never get too worked up about the things I can't change. I know I can't change everyone's mind, no matter how well I put out my arguments, and I know that no matter how much I think my personal Great Project would be for the world, I will never get everyone to agree. At best, I could hope that in a few hundred years, after I and everyone I knew was dead, things might change to be the way I wanted them to be, but I know I'd never live to see it, so I figure, I'll put my ideas out there but not get too invested in making them a reality. What's the point? It would be a waste of my one short life. In fact it would only serve to shorten my life, since it would give me further stress, increasing the severity of my bipolar, and the increase in stress hormones would cause long-term damage to my already weak heart (genetics dealt me a REALLY bad hand).

So, if that's how you choose to spend your life, that's your choice; but it's not how I choose to spend mine, and I think it's a waste. But like I said, that's your choice to make. I can't change everyone's minds, and unlike you, I accept that.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
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Reply #118 - March 17, 2017, 01:31 PM

tl:dr

"I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

"No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
- three
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Reply #119 - March 17, 2017, 11:43 PM

I don't recall making any judgement about you at all. I just pointed out, when you were insulted by my mention of my mother's work, that I meant nothing personal about it and that I have no idea what your parents did for a living. I would be quite happy to hear that they were employed as my mother was. I never met nor heard first hand of anyone else who did such work.
I would say that I am sorry if you feel I have personally attacked you. That was not my intention, and indeed it would undermine my point.

Don't let Hitler have the street.
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