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 Topic: can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?

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  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     OP - January 01, 2015, 04:14 AM

    Hello, I am pretty much a lurker who rarely coments anything on this forum. I am sorry if this is going to sound incoherent in any way. I just felt like i need to post about my recent experience. I was attending a lecture from my community mosque yesterday. It started out with a very straightforward expected talk about how you should love islam and learn it. At some point he started talking about fornication, zina and mentioned that homosexuality was an even bigger sin. I kinda lingered on it and remembered how some scholar would say that it is not sinful to be one, but to act on your desires as a homosexual would be classed as a sin. So when i got the chance to ask a question, i pretty much asked him to clarify his statement if he meant the act or just being one was regarded as a bigger sin than zina. From then on it turned into a mini debate with me arguing that it is not a choice and that you can be a muslim and a homosexual. The sheikh response was mainly that if someone were to acknowledge to himself that he is homosexual, that itself would show intention towards same sex behaviour and be considered a sin. What i understood from that is that he meant you have to hide it, never even tell people. That in of itself is damaging, which is what i told him. The response to that was a bit redundant as he just repeats what he said only to include that if you were a criminal you wouldn't tell everyone what crime you cimmited.  It was kinda going nowhere, but at that moment the people of the mosque  wanted me gone from the crowd and they then arranged a private room instead for me and the sheikh to continue talking. It became a lot morecomfortable to talk and response. Unfortunately, it  became a stalemate after 30 mins of talking as i did not agree with him that homosexuality is an illness and he didn't  agree with me that you don't  choose to be gay. In the end we exchanged emails as he thinks that i just need to seek more knowledge and he plans on sending me more links. Also to note apparently it got quite some talk around my community. It was mostly negative responds towards as people thought i was causing problems fir fun or something. I feel like i messed up even though i know that what i said wasn't or shouldn't be problematic to ask. I feel bad for my family who are now getting these bad rumors like"is your son gay" or " he was nothing but a bother to the lecture".


  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #1 - January 01, 2015, 04:40 AM

    You did not mess up. Your sheikh's only expertise is in theological nonsense. The social pressure people are pressing on your family is a form of emotion abuse which really show the type of people within your environment. The fact they are running to your parents rather than talking to you shows how childish they are.
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #2 - January 01, 2015, 11:32 AM

    At some point he started talking about fornication, zina and mentioned that homosexuality was an even bigger sin.


    Report it to your local council. No doubt that mosque, and he as a religious leader, are in receipt of some subsidies from the council and what he has stted is 'hate speech'.

    Report him and stand back and watch the fireworks explode.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #3 - January 01, 2015, 11:55 AM

    Your arguments were right. Homosexuality is not a choice or a illness. You're born with it. Hiding it will cause psychological damages. Some people even commit suicide out of it :(.

    I heard about a Imam in South Africa who is openly gay. Maybe you can research about him.

    Here is a paper from the liberal Islam association in Germany. Unfortunately it is in German, but maybe you can translate it with Google.

    http://www.lib-ev.de/pdf/LIB_Positionspapier_HomosexualitaetimIslam.pdf
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #4 - January 01, 2015, 02:58 PM

    Starting a discussion shouldn't be a big deal. So you didn't mess up. It's them people who try to make a big deal out of it.

    Dogs never bite me - just humans. ~ M. Monroe

    Religions seem to cause more grief than good.

    Exmuslim Chat
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #5 - January 01, 2015, 08:51 PM

    I hate the whole subject about homosexuality in Islam. I have so many friends who wished they weren't gay because they're scared. Who would choose to live life in fear? I don't believe that homosexuality is a choice and I hate trying to explain this.

    Bad news is:
    You cannot make people like, love, understand, validate,
    accept, or be nice to you. You can't control them either.
    Good news is:
    It doesn't matter.
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #6 - January 02, 2015, 01:24 AM

    Can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?

    Yes! But be prepared for an avalanche of angry opposition.
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #7 - January 03, 2015, 12:10 PM

    Thanks for your responses everyone Smiley. I know that i didn't mess up but it seems like I definitely hit a nerve in my community. To me it is baffling that many people in my community, including my family directly refer to sexual intercourse, the moment I mention homosexuality. Luckily for me it has already blown over.

    @Jedi

    I am not sure if it is possible. The mosque i attend to has now been officially bought (because of the constant donations given from people across the globe). Would it still be worth it to report it. I Know that a possible response they could give, would be never incite hatred or discrimination against homosexuals. From which then they could point towards a specific Surat or hadith that conforms with their statement. That could be tricky to explain in detail.

    @EIToro

    Interesting. Thankyou for the link. This looks useful. I will definitely send this to the sheikh who still wanted to contact me regarding this topic through. Hopefully it will give him perspective to some degree.


  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #8 - January 03, 2015, 01:48 PM

    You're welcome. I admire your courage. Not everyone has the balls to discuss with an Islamic authority, especially not in a mosque.

    I guess most of the people think that if you defend homosexuality you are homosexual. Why else would you care? But I see your point that you want to point out that being gay and religious is not a conflict.

    Please keep us updated about the response.

    To be honest I don't think that you'll get a positive feedback from your sheikh. I hope he is not going to complain to your father about it.
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #9 - January 03, 2015, 06:15 PM

    @Jedi

    I am not sure if it is possible. The mosque i attend to has now been officially bought (because of the constant donations given from people across the globe). Would it still be worth it to report it. I Know that a possible response they could give, would be never incite hatred or discrimination against homosexuals. From which then they could point towards a specific Surat or hadith that conforms with their statement. That could be tricky to explain in detail.


    Hi, I'm not putting the responsibility on your shoulders, but these things need to be exposed. Record what is said in various mosques throughout Britain and the release it.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #10 - January 11, 2015, 11:23 AM

    Interesting. Thankyou for the link. This looks useful. I will definitely send this to the sheikh who still wanted to contact me regarding this topic through. Hopefully it will give him perspective to some degree.


    Did you get a response from your sheikh? Is everything ok with you and your family now?
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #11 - December 04, 2015, 12:09 PM

    I could never understand the "commit them to their homes until they're no longer gay" stance in scripture, let alone how some converts actually believed that real gay rights is diagnosing homosexuality as sexual deviancy and finding a cure for it. Seriously??


    Also, even as a believer I couldn't imagine the likes of Rob Halford being locked up in their homes to be "cured". We wouldn't have such an amazing musician if that happened to him.

    For all the talk about love from those particular converts I've mentioned, they were sure full of hate.
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #12 - December 04, 2015, 02:18 PM

    Hi,

    I thinks it’s difficult to talk about homosexuality in Islam, being religious (any religion) and homosexual is a tough place to be. As god has made you the way you are but then rejects you for being that way and your religious community cannot understand that.

    Muslims have a hard time accepting homosexuality or even understanding what it is. They just don’t want to talk about, as if they may catch it or something.  It’s just seen as perverse, hence associating it to pedophilia or the like.

    As you did, I test the waters. I sometimes meet muslims who drink, smoke, do drugs, sleep around etc they say I know what I’m doing is wrong, but I’m still a strong believer in Islam and I’m a good muslim, other muslims know and they are ok with it too.

    So, when they say this, I bring up the topic of homosexuality, which to them is a complete no no, just like that dismissed, there doesn’t seem to be any room for it and it will not be accepted. I find this happens to me a lot and the response is always the same, all the time.

    I’ve never in my life come across a muslim who is ok with homosexuality, it’s funny, they always seem so uncomfortable talking about it. I think it’s great that you were able to discuss this at the talk. It’s interesting that the sheikh you spoke to was willing to comment or discuss, although the answer will always be the same, all the time.
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #13 - December 04, 2015, 02:34 PM

    You can argue for whatever you want as a Muslim. Like any other person. If you want to argue for or against homosexuality from a perspective based on Islamic scriptures, then that's a whole other story. Taking into account both hadeeth and Quran, it's beyond any reasonable doubt that homosexuality is a sin and there is a severe punishment if you happen to get caught in a homosexual "act". If you ignore the hadeeth, then if you are intellectually dishonest enough, you could argue that homosexuality really isn't shunned in Islam. But it takes a lot of intellectual dishonesty and mental gymnastics.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #14 - December 04, 2015, 02:43 PM

    There's a long history of homosexuality in the islamic world, though it's against scripture.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #15 - December 04, 2015, 02:51 PM

    There's a long history of homosexuality since forever... It's not like gays and lesbians and everything in between didn't exist just because we didn't talk about it or shunned it or... Homosexuality, or at least male bisexuality, has been totally accepted in a lot of different cultures throughout times. Even me being semi-ignorant of history can name you ancient Greek and the Samurai culture in Japan. Having male concubines in ancient China wasn't unheard of either... and so on. Perhaps (wo)man's sexual fluidity has a bigger chance to take expression in a society where gender segregation is practiced. Maybe that's why "bisexuality" no one admits is common in places like Saudi and so on.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #16 - December 04, 2015, 03:02 PM

    some converts actually believed that real gay rights is diagnosing homosexuality as sexual deviancy and finding a cure for it. Seriously??


    That can't be real.

    I mean seriously.

    Real gay rights is to eradicate, discriminate and torture gays.

    Oooooookay then.
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #17 - December 04, 2015, 03:12 PM

    In N.America,  its funny how the conservatives (non-muslims) who are loudest against gays, turn out to have  clandestine same-sex affairs!   Wonder if the same holds good for Muslims too?
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #18 - December 04, 2015, 03:48 PM

    Did anyone watch the BBC3 documentary, How gay is Pakistan? That answered a few questions, do how muslims feel about same sex relations.
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #19 - December 04, 2015, 03:53 PM

    Well you know what homophobia really says about you. Wink

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #20 - December 04, 2015, 03:59 PM

    You are a brave person.  Afro

    Yeah I'm sure the "Sheikh" will give you an answer like that. He will also rely on "Psychology studies say that we are not born gay."

    If someone is gay, and doesn't "act" on it, it's just as bad as if someone is straight and doesn't act on it. I have seen so many different responses from Salafi Shaykhs (who have no tolerance), to the Modernized Salafi Shaykh (who said what you posted) and even Sufi Modernists. They all don't have a satisfying answer. They believe that if you follow Allah and the Quran, then somehow you will magically turn "straight" because it's "the fitrah." It's BS.

    I would say that you saw the true colors of Muslims. They assumed you're gay just because you asked a legitimate question. And it's not like they really think you're gay, they're just making up some rumor so they can talk about you and your family. This is how Muslims are. They are like monkeys in this regard. I had to say it like that.

    I would say break free from these people and their mentality. Just be free. It's what's best for you. Many Muslim children and new generations are becoming gay and lesbian, yet these cultural people have no clue.


    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #21 - December 23, 2015, 12:53 PM

    I have come across (online) a couple of progressive Muslims who support LGBTQ, but so far they have yet to show how the Qur'an supports their stance.
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #22 - December 23, 2015, 02:58 PM

    In the news in Greece today - three out of the four Muslims MPs voted in favour of same-sex civil partnerships.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/YanniKouts/status/679610111225106432

    https://mobile.twitter.com/damomac/status/679613951164944384

    Inside Parliament today: https://mobile.twitter.com/ElizaGoroya/status/679632149151092736/photo/1

    Video: https://www.facebook.com/AthensLiveGr/videos/1653043061634391/?fref=nf
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #23 - December 23, 2015, 03:16 PM

    All the arguments I've come across trying to reconcile islam and gay relationships have been intellectually dishonest and laughable to say the least.

    And I'm not even that well versed in islamic theology. I just know the standard stuff that most practicing muslims (or exmuslims that were practicing) know.


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #24 - December 23, 2015, 03:38 PM

    I think it's easier for gays to leave Islam altogether.

    It can be a valid interpretation in their viewpoint, but why put yourself in that much danger? They're choosing to stay in a cave filled with angry bears.

    They should just create something called, "Islam+" or something like that.. Meaning "Islam for gays" and be under their own banner instead of trying to blend in with the mainstream.

    "If you don't like your religion's fundamentalists, then maybe there's something wrong with your religion's fundamentals."
    "Demanding blind respect but not offering any respect in reciprocation is laughable."
    "Let all the people in all the worlds be in peace."
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #25 - December 23, 2015, 03:53 PM

    All the arguments I've come across trying to reconcile islam and gay relationships have been intellectually dishonest and laughable to say the least.





    Religion? Intellectually dishonest?? No way!!
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #26 - December 23, 2015, 06:03 PM

    Quote
    Religion? Intellectually dishonest?? No way!!

     

    Point taken.

    I get why everyday believers do it but I'd expect a progressive muslim with a PHD in islamic studies to at least say yes thats what the quran and hadiths say and we dont practice it anymore or that it was authored by humans and we can just simply reject those parts or something along those lines. 

    But it boggled my mind when the guy started to blatantly ignore parts of the hadith he was quoting or just make up his own translation for it out of nowhere instead of using what the hadiths actually say. (the author of the book was a convert academic named scot kugle IIRC)

    I thought. Dude you study islam for a living you should be above these silly apologetics.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?
     Reply #27 - March 13, 2022, 01:33 PM

    Can you argue for homosexuality as a muslim?

    Yes! But be prepared for an avalanche of angry opposition.


    You can also argue that the earth is flat at an astronomy conference.
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