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Theme Changer

 Topic: Niqabs and education... How can you not love the fundamentalists?

 (Read 2528 times)
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  • Niqabs and education... How can you not love the fundamentalists?
     OP - May 21, 2016, 02:35 PM

    Background: We have a running case in Denmark, concerning a university college, who told some students that had started wearing niqab during classes, that any garb covering the face was unwanted. They were not expelled, and could freely follow the course online.

    It made the usual ruckus, with the "chickens promoting KFC"-fraction of the feminists supporting the niqabies (is that a word?).

    Tomorrow there was supposed to be a demonstration called "Support our sisters with niqab/ A call for truth". 350 had signed up on facebook (meaning that you could probably expect 30 to show up?), the usual arguments about the niqab being a voluntary choice, loved by the wearers and "a symbol of freedom" had been uttered and they had even gotten an exemption from the police, concerning the normal ban against being masked during demonstrations.

    And then the spokesman delivered this pearl:
    Quote
    - Søstrene må stadig gerne møde op hvis de ønsker, dog kun hvis de har fået tilladelse af deres mahram og at de har en mahram med.


    Quote
    - The sisters may show up if they want to, yet only if they have been granted permission by their mahram and they bring a mahram


    How can you not love it?

  • Niqabs and education... How can you not love the fundamentalists?
     Reply #1 - May 21, 2016, 03:11 PM

    That last one was priceless

    And yeah, the niqab is a piece of shit garment and can never be said to be anything remotely feminist or "freedom-ish" due to the very nature, history and function of it. But anyway. The sisters should be allowed to attend their studies, and I think it's wrong to ban them from the classroom. What's the intention, if not to indirectly discourage them and make them drop out/fail the course because they can't participate in classroom activities as a process of learning? Sigh...

    Btw is this the first case in Denmark? 10 years ago when I attended Uni for the first time, I was probably one of the first niqabis to do so. But it was first a couple of years ago one of my niqabi sisters got in conflict with the Uni when she applied to become a teacher. She droped out and studied/s something else instead.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Niqabs and education... How can you not love the fundamentalists?
     Reply #2 - May 21, 2016, 03:38 PM

    It is the dynamics of the classroom.

    The teacher has to be able to actually see your face to be able to have a meaningful person to person communication*. Furthermore you must physically attend to pass the classroom courses, meaning that the teacher must be able to recognize you and confirm that it is actually you.

    The other university colleges have had similar rules for years (without problems).


    *Have you ever taught or given talks to people?
    I do regularly, and an audience you cannot "read" is horrible. It is exhausting not to get any feedback, and you have absolutely no idea, whether they get the points or not.
    It will of course depend on the teaching style. I you want the recipients to just sit quietly and receive, it may be fine. But the teaching style used in Denmark requires active participation and is considered a collaboration between the teacher and the pupil.
  • Niqabs and education... How can you not love the fundamentalists?
     Reply #3 - May 21, 2016, 04:02 PM

    I've been both a student and in a teaching role while in niqab/with niqabi audience. It's over rated and over hyped. I've never had problems with interaction with other students, nor teachers. But then again, Denmark is known as Sweden's arrogant, slightly more xenophobic, and loud cousin.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Niqabs and education... How can you not love the fundamentalists?
     Reply #4 - May 21, 2016, 05:11 PM

    It is the dynamics of the classroom.

    The teacher has to be able to actually see your face to be able to have a meaningful person to person communication*. Furthermore you must physically attend to pass the classroom courses, meaning that the teacher must be able to recognize you and confirm that it is actually you.


    You don't have to see someone's face to do that though.  There is the voice, the mannerisms that are individual to that student, height, walk etc.  The face doesn't actually have to be included. 

    Quote
    The other university colleges have had similar rules for years (without problems).


    Not sure what you mean here?  that it is only now these niqabis are making a fuss?  or there were no niqabis before?

    Quote
    *Have you ever taught or given talks to people?
    I do regularly, and an audience you cannot "read" is horrible. It is exhausting not to get any feedback, and you have absolutely no idea, whether they get the points or not.
    It will of course depend on the teaching style. I you want the recipients to just sit quietly and receive, it may be fine. But the teaching style used in Denmark requires active participation and is considered a collaboration between the teacher and the pupil.


    Doesn't really sound like a collaboration between the teacher and the pupil though, it sounds like the same tired old authoritarian style, that requires the student to display acceptable visible markers before they are worthy to be taught.

    I lecture at uni, and like Cornflower, I have had no issues teaching the 2 students in my class who wear niqabs.  I can engage with their eyes, and their voices, I know it's them.  This is how I receive feedback.

    There is no barrier to communication for me.  I most definitely wouldn't insist they remove it just to make myself happy.

    I mean generally that is all it is about.  The niqab makes others feel uncomfortable.  Also it's a highly visible marker of 'otherness', and given how often through history, high markers of otherness are generally squished out, it comes as no surprise that some people believe that the niqab interferes with communication.

    It's just another thing to police.  Afro hair, long hair on boys, the niqab, etc etc.  The list of things that somehow interfere with a teacher's ability to teach, or the school's ability to function is actually quite fucking long.  Grin

    Just to make it clear I am against what the niqab represents, but it does not hamper me as a teacher, if my student has it on. 

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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