Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


India vs Pakistan... in E...
Yesterday at 08:44 PM

Freely down loadable Boo...
Yesterday at 03:29 PM

Qur'anic studies today
Yesterday at 02:10 PM

Muslim heritage?
June 22, 2019, 11:20 AM

مدهش----- لماذا؟؟؟؟
June 21, 2019, 02:14 PM

Sisi elected Egypt pres...
June 19, 2019, 06:32 PM

Scientists and .............
June 18, 2019, 07:06 PM

Nominal from Bedfordshire
June 17, 2019, 08:32 PM

Mobeen Azhar: Hometown
June 17, 2019, 07:59 AM

From religion to... unrel...
June 15, 2019, 06:35 PM

Kismet: Does it inevitabl...
June 15, 2019, 10:57 AM

NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
June 14, 2019, 08:06 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Just a Muslim

 (Read 4424 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Just a Muslim
     OP - April 07, 2016, 10:46 PM

    As-salamu alaykum to the Muslim brothers and sisters in this forum, (which I hope there are, lol) . Hello also to any non-Muslim. I personally have never doubted Islam. Never have and most probably never will. My faith in Islam is very adamant. However, I do have one question which has been in my thoughts for the last couple of days and never has been before, weirdly enough. It's about Hell. I always understood that it is only just for Allah (SWT) to create a reward, (Jannah/Paradise) and a punishment, (Jahannam/Hellfire) for us. After all, life for us Muslims is percieved as being a test by Allah (SWT) which we must strive to succeed in to compliment our spiritual needs, (through the 5 daily prayers etc). What I don't understand is why punishment in Hell will be for an eternal period for finite sins. As I do believe in the hereafter of Heaven and Hell and that life is only a test, I can respond by saying that Allah (SWT) wouldn't have been able to judge us for what we did on Earth if our life on Earth went on eternally. What are your thoughts on this? Thanks.

    P.S. If this thread isn't supposed to be in this part of the forum, then forgive me.

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf.
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #1 - April 07, 2016, 11:22 PM

    From what I've been taught, all Muslims go to Heaven after spending some time in Hell to "purify" their sins or whatever.
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #2 - April 08, 2016, 12:02 AM

    Yes, that is correct.

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf.
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #3 - April 08, 2016, 01:38 AM

    Hi A Muslim. Like you, I used to be a Muslim. More than that, I lead the prayer because I was and am a Hafiz and people had sought my opinion in matters of figh, Aquidah and tafsir alike. One of the things that made me doubt the deity of Allah was the concept "this life is a test".

    I wanted to know who the examiner or tester was. Then I found it was Allah, the all knowing God. But I found this to be inconsistent; the basic meaning of <test> in any authoritative dictionary of Arabic or English is "carrying out activities and or asking questions in order to establish the veracity or the truthfulness of things which have not previously been known to the examiner".

    Thus, I ended up between two positions:

    A - That Allah was examining us as it is mentioned in [67:2] in order to establish things which have not been previously known to Him. Therefore, Allah has been telling us an untruthful thing when He claims to know everything. Everything in this case includes that which had happened, and that which is happening and that which will happen and which did never happen if it were to happen, when, where and how it would have happened. This is me breaking down the meaning of omniscient. Therefore, this lying Allah cannot be the True God, because a true god does not need to lie.

    B -  That Allah knows everything beforehand and thus, His act of examining us is Him wasting His time because for Him to witness the coding or witnessing what he's written put in motion, which He knows to go according to plan, is nothing new and does not add anything to His never changing knowledge.

    Thus, if He knows then why is He examining us, and if He does not know the outcome of the test, then why did He say He knows? Allah is either lying when He says he knows everything beforehand or He is being frivolous by having nothing better to do but witness mechanically what He has ordained to happen 50 thousand years before He created the heavens and earth.

    The second position, that Allah is just witnessing His well-known plan coming to action by creating us, is inconsistent with things like His angry reaction to what we or other people do such as found in [43:55].

    Anger is an emotional reaction to something unexpected. There should have been nothing unexpected to all-knowing Allah. Thus, if Allah gets angered or disappointed then He more likely hopes and wishes rather than He knows the outcome of everything; Allah could not know for a cert how anyone of us responds to anything of His wants (الإرادة الشرعية) if He at the same time gets disappointed and angered by the outcome. Therefore, 'disappointable' Allah simply lied by claiming He knows everything. (If in principle we risked angering Him, why did Allah create us in the first place?)

    Allah has either lied by claiming complete knowledge of everything or He factually knows everything because He's written it thereby He preordained everything. If so, then nothing escapes His predestination and therefore, we sin because Allah has willed us to sin and we do not have any agency away from whatever He has written and planned for us.

    This practically means Allah is unjust which is inconsistent with a god that says He is, as well as a god that needs to lie to us by telling us we have freewill when He had written everything and every possibility down before He created us. By telling us we are free agents for which we individually must earn our places when the examination is over in either Jannah or Jahannam, Allah is claiming to be allowing us to choose whatever our reason and desires may lead us to. Thus, Allah should have been emotionally ready and Allah should have been respectful of the outcome of giving us individual agency i.e. freewill. Allah cannot give us freewill and then when we act on it in ways which He does not like He angrily cries foul.

    Square this circle convincingly for me and I promise to lead you in the Taraweeh of this year's Ramadan in London.
    -------------------------------
    Updated and proofread.
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #4 - April 08, 2016, 11:48 AM

    I did not know this about you Wahabist.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #5 - April 08, 2016, 12:44 PM

    I completely agree with Wahhabist. The concept of hell is certainly the one that finally pushed me out of Islam. I wrote this piece, Debunking Jahannam, in order to collect my own thoughts around the subject and to encourage thought amongst believers in a literal hell.

    I’d also recommend this video by Hassan Radwan, who now self-identifies as an “Agnostic Muslim,” in which he explains how the absurdity of the vision of an eternal hell eventually pushed him out of Islam.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra9QQ58b7JY

    More recently, Hassan published this Agnostic Muslim Khutbah on Hell, in which he combines the historical origins of the concept with his own views on the mundane and human origins of the Qur’an itself, in what I interpret to be an effort to not lose the lessons of recompense for good and evil - or actions and consequences - that Muhammad may have been entertaining when he found his inspiration to recite about hell.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uniMzg0Qrws

    However you interpret hell, the idea of grotesque and eternal torture for finite actions remains problematic when it is conceived as being the design of a deity who brags about being both All Knowing and Most Merciful.

    As a person who no longer believes in a literal understanding of the Abrahamic God, the only lesson I can derive from the Qur’an’s depictions of Jahannam is that it is a place that we should strive to avoid creating here on earth – through wars, religious and ideological squabbling, injustice, and the destruction of our own environment by our own hands.

    And how deserving of it we might be if we then thought ourselves eligible for a metaphysical paradise - after we'd destroyed the real one we had here.

    And, P.S.

    Wahhabist, how I’d love to pray behind you still with all the heaven’s circular squares, habibi.
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #6 - April 08, 2016, 01:06 PM

    You will spend an eternity in Hell for either kufr or shirk. This is the justice administered by the Most Compassionate and the Most Merciful. The young, the old, the mentally and physically infirm, the poor and the ignorant along with the rich and the educated. These will all be tormented in the pits of Hell Fire, with their flesh being replaced so they can experience the excruciating pain endlessly, simply for refusing to worship Allah or associating other unto Him.

    There have been scores of mere mortals who have forgiven others for murders of loved ones, rape, paedophilia, fraud and affairs. Compared to these chaps Allah appears to be an immature, angry and jealous projection of the human psyche. I'm not ignoring the compassionate and loving nature of the human creation. It's as if we got both the good and the bad and mangled them together to create this deformity whose attributes and actions are so at odds with one another that it contradicts itself out of existence.

    Hell is not justice. Hell is revenge. Unless Allah is taking over Liam Neesons character from the Taken movies, then he's a character I can't get behind let alone worship.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #7 - April 08, 2016, 01:47 PM

    Quote
     Compared to these chaps Allah appears to be an immature, angry and jealous projection of the human psyche. I'm not ignoring the compassionate and loving nature of the human creation. It's as if we got both the good and the bad and mangled them together to create this deformity whose attributes and actions are so at odds with one another that it contradicts itself out of existence.


    Isn’t that what gods have always been, abstract projections of the human psyche? They’ve never actually existed apart from in our own minds. Gods have always been concepts – ideals, values, mysteries, things we don’t fully grasp – symbolized either through carvings, drawings, images, or in the case of Allah, words.

    But anyhow…
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #8 - April 08, 2016, 02:30 PM

    Yes. That's why I've mentioned it. But that's only how it appears to people who do not believe in God. Or at least people who do not reduce the concept of 'God' to a philosophical statement or that which can never be understood or a derivation thereof.*

    However the OP talks as if Allah is an actual being and not an abstract projection. As since God is an abstract projection any conversation related to Hell can be viewed as such.

    In fact, I'm curious as to why 'A Muslim', whose faith in Islam is adamant,  decided to seek answers from non-Muslims. What has the been the response from Muslims spoken to (though we could guess it revolves around 'test' and 'justice').

    I must add, coming from a sociological background, that Durkheim would have an interesting conversation  relating to religion/God(s) and the concept of God as a process which unites social groups, it is an identifier, it is also a system to promote social solidarity as well as a methodology to understand the world. I wouldn't reduce 'God' to just a projection of the mind, rather I'd elucidate further of why and how the concept arose and impacted on different groups. It's just that in the case of Hell when applied to a deity it tells us a lot about  the nature of the said deity and His supposed characteristics, in this case of Allah who is supposed to be All-Knowing, All-Loving and The Just. It can be demonstrative of an evolution of the concept of justice, punishment, authority and the after live within a society (or societies). I won't speak for the Greeks or their concept of Hell Fire.  

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #9 - April 08, 2016, 02:49 PM

    ^ For sure. I only called out your point specifically to give the OP something to think about.

    Re: your edits. I'm in agreement with that as well. 
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #10 - April 08, 2016, 03:21 PM

    I'm glad you did. It's important to try and look at different ways to see the same thing as well as challenge others to clarify their points .

    As ex-Muslims some might only see Islam from a purely religious perspective without looking at other views and thus the concept of God or religion can be highly negative or somewhat neutral depending upon our experiences and circumstances. However, I see the concept of God and the development of religion as critical in our social evolution. Though, I get the criticism as there are many societies that evolved which had spiritual (not religious) elements and devoid of the rigorous form of religion as you'd see in most of the world (admittedly via colonialism).

    In this light I view Hell as an early pre-historic endeavor of having a conversation about justice, punishment and the role of the law-giver, which has evolved into many divergent forms but with one commonality - the outsider is doomed with the insiders teetering on a sliding scale of the damned and the saved. I forget which sociologist it was who argued that American Protestantism centered around the concept of the damned and the saved and was the foundation of the 'protestant work ethic' which morphed into the hard-working American entrepreneurial attitude that is (mythically) associated with, would you have it, America.

    The most important thing is, you and I can have a very grounded conversation on the issue of Hell, based on theories, facts and the works of academics and I doubt neither of us would feel begrudged to find that we may have been mistaken on some issues. In fact, we'd thank each other because as rational individuals we want to better our understanding of our selves and each other. However, for the believer, belief in Hell and all its associations can be dogmatic and inflexible and little to no progress is made thus rendering all enquiry into the matter utterly redundant and an exercise into pointlessness. Too harsh that isn't it?

    I can't tell you how great it feels to be intellectually liberated and how emancipating it is to understand and converse with others about the fantastically mundane origins of religion and God(s).

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #11 - April 08, 2016, 04:58 PM

    And, P.S.
    Wahhabist, how I’d love to pray behind you still with all the heaven’s circular squares, habibi.


    سَمِعَ الله لِمَنْ حَمِدَه

     far away hug
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #12 - April 08, 2016, 05:02 PM

    I did not know this about you Wahabist.

     What did you not know about me, dear?
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #13 - April 08, 2016, 05:09 PM

    This:

    Quote
    More than that, I lead the prayer because I was and am a Hafiz and people had sought my opinion in matters of figh, Aquidah and tafsir alike.


    The most I did was read the adhaan and make the Shaitaan fart.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #14 - April 08, 2016, 05:16 PM

    The most I did was read the adhaan and make the Shaitaan fart.

    That's because you weren't an earnest fool like me.

     
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #15 - April 08, 2016, 05:16 PM

    Sorry A Muslim for chitchatting on your thread x
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #16 - April 08, 2016, 11:47 PM

    Welcome to the forum A Muslim. Have a rabbit!  bunny

    What I don't understand is why punishment in Hell will be for an eternal period for finite sins.


    Because Allah is unjust, and hence not worth worshiping.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #17 - April 09, 2016, 12:51 AM

    As-salamu alaykum to the Muslim brothers and sisters in this forum, (which I hope there are, lol) . Hello also to any non-Muslim. I personally have never doubted Islam. Never have and most probably never will. My faith in Islam is very adamant. However, I do have one question which has been in my thoughts for the last couple of days and never has been before, weirdly enough. It's about Hell. I always understood that it is only just for Allah (SWT) to create a reward, (Jannah/Paradise) and a punishment, (Jahannam/Hellfire) for us. After all, life for us Muslims is percieved as being a test by Allah (SWT) which we must strive to succeed in to compliment our spiritual needs, (through the 5 daily prayers etc). What I don't understand is why punishment in Hell will be for an eternal period for finite sins. As I do believe in the hereafter of Heaven and Hell and that life is only a test, I can respond by saying that Allah (SWT) wouldn't have been able to judge us for what we did on Earth if our life on Earth went on eternally. What are your thoughts on this? Thanks.

    P.S. If this thread isn't supposed to be in this part of the forum, then forgive me.




    Walaikumsalam, a Muslim, I always found it odd that Allah was "testing" us even though he already knows what we will do before creating us and he knew many would disobey and they would be sent to hell due to our "flawed" nature that HE CREATED, nonetheless he created us anyway telling me he enjoys putting us through torture and suffering.

    After beginning my degree in Evolutionary Biology, I found it odd that Allah created humans distinctly as the best creation, but when we look at human bone structure and the structure of any other animal it is nearly identical. We all have a long bone at the beginning of our arm, followed by two thinner bones, and then 5 fingers; similarly our legs start with a long bone and then 2 thin bones and then 5 toes, and EVERY OTHER VERTEBRATE ANIMAL ON EARTH IS THE SAME. The difference is that animals like horses have their fingers fused in a hoof, but still long bone followed by 2 short bone. This made me wonder, if Allah Truly made humans, why would he make us look just like the other animals and fit PERFECTLY in the evolutionary "phylogenetic tree of life", why would he make us with the same DNA as apes with broken monkey genes? It seems he is trying to hide himself from us, either he does not exist or he does not want to be found.

    Due to these two reasons I was shaky in my Imaan and when I reexamined the Quran and Seerah with an unbiased view, I did not see any Divine Truth in Islam and regardless of the fact that I wanted to believe, I could not, I had evidence against Islam and as a Scientist, we follow the evidence, Even if it forces us to conclude something that we really do not like, That is how we pull the truth out of anything, otherwise we would still believe the earth is flat.

    But that is just me, if your Imaan in Allah is strong nonetheless, that is fine too as long as you are living happy.  yes

    As a scientist I can see farther than any human before me by standing on the shoulders of giants (previous scientists); As a religious follower I can not see what is right in-front of me, even when others INDEPENDENTLY see the same thing!
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #18 - April 09, 2016, 01:09 AM

    I remember what it was to be devout, without doubt. It was lovely. But being free turned out to be better.

    In my opinion, the reason Allah has determined infinite hell for finite sin is because he is cruel.

    To state it more clearly:  Allah, an omnipotent being, exercises cruelty towards beings most decidedly not omnipotent. Towards beings who are dependent upon His Mercy. Towards beings incapable of imagining His Power. Towards beings who are short lived, short sighted, and in need of His Guidance.

    To make an analogy, it would be as if you tortured a creature dependent upon you, for making a mistake. Like a pet. Or a child.

    So Allah is therefore not worth worship. Because if I can continuously exercise compassion towards pets and children, even when they make mistakes, then I must be more Compassionate than Allah, and therefore more capable of godly attributes than He. Probably you are, too.

    So if Allah does not possess more godly attributes than Man? Is He Divine?

    he is not divine. he is not even real- at this point, the capitalization ends. Because a real god would, like a real man, help those who need help. Not threaten, cause, permit, and approve of torture.

    Oh, and welcome.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #19 - April 09, 2016, 04:43 PM

    Hi A Muslim. Like you, I used to be a Muslim. More than that, I lead the prayer because I was and am a Hafiz and people had sought my opinion in matters of figh, Aquidah and tafsir alike. One of the things that made me doubt the deity of Allah was the concept "this life is a test".

    I wanted to know who the examiner or tester was. Then I found it was Allah, the all knowing God. But I found this to be inconsistent; the basic meaning of <test> in any authoritative dictionary of Arabic or English is "carrying out activities and or asking questions in order to establish the veracity or the truthfulness of things which have not previously been known to the examiner".

    Thus, I ended up between two positions:

    A - That Allah was examining us as it is mentioned in [67:2] in order to establish things which have not been previously known to Him. Therefore, Allah has been telling us an untruthful thing when He claims to know everything. Everything in this case includes that which had happened, and that which is happening and that which will happen and which did never happen if it were to happen, when, where and how it would have happened. This is me breaking down the meaning of omniscient. Therefore, this lying Allah cannot be the True God, because a true god does not need to lie.

    B -  That Allah knows everything beforehand and thus, His act of examining us is Him wasting His time because for Him to witness the coding or witnessing what he's written put in motion, which He knows to go according to plan, is nothing new and does not add anything to His never changing knowledge.

    Thus, if He knows then why is He examining us, and if He does not know the outcome of the test, then why did He say He knows? Allah is either lying when He says he knows everything beforehand or He is being frivolous by having nothing better to do but witness mechanically what He has ordained to happen 50 thousand years before He created the heavens and earth.

    The second position, that Allah is just witnessing His well-known plan coming to action by creating us, is inconsistent with things like His angry reaction to what we or other people do such as found in [43:55].

    Anger is an emotional reaction to something unexpected. There should have been nothing unexpected to all-knowing Allah. Thus, if Allah gets angered or disappointed then He more likely hopes and wishes rather than He knows the outcome of everything; Allah could not know for a cert how anyone of us responds to anything of His wants (الإرادة الشرعية) if He at the same time gets disappointed and angered by the outcome. Therefore, 'disappointable' Allah simply lied by claiming He knows everything. (If in principle we risked angering Him, why did Allah create us in the first place?)

    Allah has either lied by claiming complete knowledge of everything or He factually knows everything because He's written it thereby He preordained everything. If so, then nothing escapes His predestination and therefore, we sin because Allah has willed us to sin and we do not have any agency away from whatever He has written and planned for us.

    This practically means Allah is unjust which is inconsistent with a god that says He is, as well as a god that needs to lie to us by telling us we have freewill when He had written everything and every possibility down before He created us. By telling us we are free agents for which we individually must earn our places when the examination is over in either Jannah or Jahannam, Allah is claiming to be allowing us to choose whatever our reason and desires may lead us to. Thus, Allah should have been emotionally ready and Allah should have been respectful of the outcome of giving us individual agency i.e. freewill. Allah cannot give us freewill and then when we act on it in ways which He does not like He angrily cries foul.

    Square this circle convincingly for me and I promise to lead you in the Taraweeh of this year's Ramadan in London.
    -------------------------------
    Updated and proofread.


    May peace be upon you. Thank you for your in-depth response. Firstly, I want to say that we cannot go to definitions which are created by man in order to understand what Allah's role is for us. I can easily find a dictionary which disagrees with your definition.

    67:2 in the Qur'an states: ''[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving -'' This does not mean that Allah (SWT) does not know what we will do. Allah (SWT) knows what we will do because he is omniscient, but we as humans have been given free will in our lives so we can be evidence of ourselves for what we did on Earth and how we lived. Think about it this way: if Allah (SWT) never allowed us to live life and he straight away took us to Judgement Day, everyone will say that that will not be fair to do so because they never had the chance to put themselves into practice in becoming better Muslims, or even Muslims in general. They will then claim that if Allah (SWT) put them on Earth, then they would live life on what has been prescribed to us by the Qur'an and Sunnah. This will destroy the whole point of us looking for God and the true religion, so it won't be a test for us and this would be unjust on Allah's part if he didn't allow us to live life in the first place. However, he did allow us to live life. If I may add, the verse never indicates that Allah (SWT) is a liar. Astaghfirullah, I have no idea how you came to that reasoning.

    ''His act of examining us is Him wasting His time'' - Allah (SWT) has been here for an eternal period. How can he waste time? If he chose to create humans, then I don't think that is, ''wasting time'' on his part.

    ''Anger is an emotional reaction to something unexpected.'' - No. If I knew that my mother was going to be shot by someone, I hope you don't believe that I wouldn't be angry because I knew that it will happen. At the end of the day: she is dead and I won't be happy about it if it does happen and I know or didn't know. We must remember that Allah (SWT) does not speak in letters and songs. Allah (SWT) sent us the Qur'an in a way that his creation can understand, so do not try and bring me an argument that having emotions is a human character, or whatever if you will.

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf.
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #20 - April 09, 2016, 05:39 PM

    May peace be upon you. Thank you for your in-depth response. Firstly, I want to say that we cannot go to definitions which are created by man in order to understand what Allah's role is for us. I can easily find a dictionary which disagrees with your definition.


    Thank you for your reply.

    Find me a dictionary definition for <test> in Arabic or in English which disagrees with my basic definition. Find me another definition which is capable of dismissing mine as inaccurate, wrong or improper. That's the single challenge I dare you to.

    I will be generous with you and throw in all the semantic variations of this lexical item in Arabic, thus, feel free to include the other Quranic words for the same meaning; (ليبلوكم), (ولنبلونّكم حتى نعلم). You simply cannot find an authoritative definition in Arabic or English that disagrees with how I defined <test> above. Kindly, show me I am wrong and a reduced offer of half Taraweeh with me still stands.

    Further, Allah cannot use a human language (in this case, Arabic) to communicate with us and then try to rise above the human meanings inescapably contained in it. I hold Allah to the words He uses in the Quran, and these words have independent Arabic meanings that are capable of being understood by its community of speech (the Arab). Not just me and Allah. Hence, I'm kindly entreating you to find me any definition of <test> which does not relate to the end of truth discovery by its conductor.

    Rigorous order could be brought to this exchange in terms of semiotics and much else but that would be overkill. I will leave Ferdinand de Saussure out of it. So, please tell me: should Allah have used human language if He resists being held to its meanings because He transcends these meanings? If so, is that fair enough to ethically justify my admission into Naru-Jahannam without parole?  
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #21 - April 09, 2016, 06:46 PM

    May peace be upon you. I don't know why, but I cannot quote your last reply, so I hope you'll see this regardless. The only issue that I had with the definition that you gave was this part: ''which have not previously been known to the examiner". This definition can only be used in the case of humans, because we are not omniscient like Allah (SWT) is. We are given this test so we can be evidence against ourselves on the Day of Judgement like I have already stated. Suddenly waking up in Judgement Day without Allah (SWT) giving us the opportunity to live life according to the Qur'an and Sunnah won't at all be just, which goes against one of the names of Allah (SWT) being: Al-‘Adl. I can give you this definition of the word, ''test'' which is: ''A basis for evaluation or judgment''. You may respond by saying that Allah (SWT) needing this, ''basis'' for him to judge us shows that he hypothetically speaking didn't know what we would do. That's not what the definition says. I can personally know that you have committed a criminal offence, however, I can't take you to the police to be arrested without evidence. Allah (SWT) is omnipotent and he can put you in Hellfire as he sees fit. However, as I have said already, that won't make him just at all. I also want to add again, that these definitions are created by humans so they would be limited to a human-level of what we can understand.

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf.
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #22 - April 09, 2016, 07:07 PM

    May peace be upon you. I don't know why, but I cannot quote your last reply, so I hope you'll see this regardless. The only issue that I had with the definition that you gave was this part: ''which have not previously been known to the examiner". This definition can only be used in the case of humans, because we are not omniscient like Allah (SWT) is. We are given this test so we can be evidence against ourselves on the Day of Judgement like I have already stated. Suddenly waking up in Judgement Day without Allah (SWT) giving us the opportunity to live life according to the Qur'an and Sunnah won't at all be just, which goes against one of the names of Allah (SWT) being: Al-‘Adl. I can give you this definition of the word, ''test'' which is: ''A basis for evaluation or judgment''. You may respond by saying that Allah (SWT) needing this, ''basis'' for him to judge us shows that he hypothetically speaking didn't know what we would do. That's not what the definition says. I can personally know that you have committed a criminal offence, however, I can't take you to the police to be arrested without evidence. Allah (SWT) is omnipotent and he can put you in Hellfire as he sees fit. However, as I have said already, that won't make him just at all.  

     Thanks again. To quote, hit the red reply button which is located directly underneath my post and it will take you to Post Reply page. Underneath the text box on this other page you will see on top of all the previous posts [Quote this post]. Click on it and the quoted post will appear in the text box in front of your would-be ongoing reply. Try it and let me know if I can be of further assistance or if it doesn't work.  

    As for your quoted reply, you did not bring me an authoritative definition that disagrees with the basic definition I gave to <test> above; a test whose conductor's knowledge remains the same before and after it. However, I never intended to argue with or convince you, and as I only am sharing my doubts with you, I believe I have said more than enough. The reader will have to make up his or her mind regarding who has put forward a better, proper approach to the raised issues. Thank you again.

    The Taraweeh offer, I regret to say, has now expired.
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #23 - April 09, 2016, 07:15 PM

    Thanks again. To quote, hit the reply button and it will take you to Post Reply page and underneath the text box you will see on top of all the previous posts [Quote this post]. Click on it and the quoted post will appear in the text box in front of your would-be ongoing reply. Try it and let me know if I can be of further assistance. 

    As for your quoted reply, you did not bring me an authoritative definition that disagrees with the basic definition I gave to <test> above; a test whose conductor's knowledge remains the same before and after it. However, I never intended to argue with or convince you, and as I only am sharing my doubts with you, I believe I have said more than enough. The reader will have to make up his or her mind regarding who has put forward a better approach to the raised issues. Thank you again.

    The Taraweeh offer, I regret to say, has now expired.


    Peace be upon you. Thanks for the assistance. I did give you a definition, but also an explanation which shows that even if I did not find a defintion, it would not mean anything because these definitions are created by humans. Which means, these definitions were intended for us to understand on a human-level. No human is all-knowing. I understand and I thank you for this conversation that we have had. All the best.

    P.S. For the Tawaweeh offer: I am quite disappointed. But, anyhow, our Masjid already has many Imams  Afro.

    Ahl as-sunnah wal-jamāʻah and following the way of the Salaf.
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #24 - April 09, 2016, 11:05 PM

    What a pathetic cop-out. Sorry A Muslim but I am not going to humour your blatant disregard for applying one's own reason. You single premise - we are unable to apply human reasoning to Allah as implied within the meaning of human text is fundamentally flawed. Every single letter, word, sentence, paragraph, body of text is the product of individuals and is not independent of human activity and thus language itself is man-made. When God communicates to  humans using man-made devices then He is limited by the meaning of those words for meaning is not inherent within words but they are inferred or rather, I'm going all Wittgenstein on you, interpretations of Human creativity. Letters and words are symbolic representations of human thought patterns which is why and how language evolves continuously and where meaning is exists and there is no current words that can encapsulate the meaning of a thought or action then a new word is created (see: selfie).  My questions to you, in light of this, are the following:

    1) Why would God limit Himself to man-made language and thus compromise His glory and message?

    2) If we follow your premise  to its logical conclusion then ALL tafsirs and discourses relating to the Qur'an as well as every single Hadith is rendered useless.

    2.1) Following from the above, every time you read the Quran you are interpreting as it is composed of man-made language and cobbled together from flawed memories - no matter how sophisticated the Arabs were at Chinese whispers. Therefore, almost everything that YOU ave to say about the Quran can be dismissed as influenced by man-made interpretations. How' deep is that hole A Muslim??

    3) If Wahhabists definitions, which are as sound as Grovehill houses, are rejected then it demonstrates the flaws within the Quran. If God knew that such words are pivotal then He should've provided actual definitions.

    As I've mentioned previously, with your obvious refusal to debate any of the arguments many of us have put forward, you are clinging on to the most flimsiest of arguments. There are those far more forgiving than I on these forums and they may state that 'oh, you must understand that A Muslim is devout and that from his perspective the argument he proposes makes sense.' I too get it. For I know how religion can blinker one's view in which 2 + 2 = 5 (read: 1984).  But, your view is absolute tosh and I will be doing a disservice to prop your argument as something that is worthy of merit. It simply is not. It is, as previously stated, a cop out.


    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #25 - April 09, 2016, 11:09 PM

    I did give you a definition, but also an explanation which shows that even if I did not find a defintion, it would not mean anything because these definitions are created by humans. Which means, these definitions were intended for us to understand on a human-level. No human is all-knowing.


    If Allah had intended this line of thought all along, then perhaps Tractatus-era Wittgenstein was, in fact, the final Messenger of Allah.

    "My propositions serve as elucidations in this way: he who understands me eventually recognises them as nonsensical, when he has used them – as steps – to climb up over them. (He must, so to speak, throw away the ladder after he has climbed up it.) He must overcome these propositions, and then he will see the world aright." (6.54)
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #26 - April 09, 2016, 11:14 PM

    We must remember that Allah (SWT) does not speak in letters and songs. Allah (SWT) sent us the Qur'an in a way that his creation can understand, so do not try and bring me an argument that having emotions is a human character, or whatever if you will.


    Cough Cough  Roll Eyes

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #27 - April 10, 2016, 10:16 PM

    May peace be upon you. I don't know why, but I cannot quote your last reply, so I hope you'll see this regardless.


    At times the reply/quote function does not always show up for last post made. Refresh the page to restore the buttons. If that doesn't work hit rely or preview button with a blanket post. It will take you to an advance posting function which has the quote system working fine. It happens to my browsers now and then mostly likely due to the security addons I have installed.
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #28 - April 11, 2016, 09:03 AM

    When an imam says anything positive from the Quran, then it's all good.

    When somebody else says something negative from the Quran, then it's because nobody can really understand the Quran. Because the Quran (Allah's message) is not bound by human definitions/words/languages.

    If we can't derive anything from the Quran, so can't you. If we're mentally incompetent to understand Allah, then so are you. That would mean, you wouldn't even know if something is an authentic work of God. (This is what you accuse us of). We don't have the mental capacity to know if something is Godly or not.
  • Just a Muslim
     Reply #29 - April 11, 2016, 01:26 PM

    We are given this test so we can be evidence against ourselves on the Day of Judgement like I have already stated. Suddenly waking up in Judgement Day without Allah (SWT) giving us the opportunity to live life according to the Qur'an and Sunnah won't at all be just, which goes against one of the names of Allah (SWT) being: Al-‘Adl. I can give you this definition of the word, ''test'' which is: ''A basis for evaluation or judgment''. You may respond by saying that Allah (SWT) needing this, ''basis'' for him to judge us shows that he hypothetically speaking didn't know what we would do. That's not what the definition says. I can personally know that you have committed a criminal offence, however, I can't take you to the police to be arrested without evidence. Allah (SWT) is omnipotent and he can put you in Hellfire as he sees fit. However, as I have said already, that won't make him just at all.


    So essentially, the true purpose of this “test” is to give Allah the excuse he needs to burn people alive for eternity, as he wants to do, without being accused of injustice.
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »