Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Do humans have needed kno...
Today at 04:17 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Yesterday at 07:11 PM

What's happened to the fo...
by zeca
Yesterday at 06:39 PM

New Britain
Yesterday at 05:41 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
Yesterday at 05:47 AM

Iran launches drones
April 13, 2024, 09:56 PM

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
April 12, 2024, 04:01 PM

Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
April 12, 2024, 12:06 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
February 01, 2024, 12:10 PM

Mock Them and Move on., ...
January 30, 2024, 10:44 AM

Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...
January 29, 2024, 01:53 PM

Pakistan: The Nation.....
January 28, 2024, 02:12 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?

 (Read 20031 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 34 5 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #60 - March 15, 2016, 04:29 PM

    Depends on who I'm talking to, honestly, and how they'd understand what I meant. If I'm talking to an atheist Jew, I might just call myself a Muslim because I know they already get the context. If I'm talking to a bible thumping Christian then I'd call myself agnostic, since I'd probably have the same trouble communicating what I do with my Islamic heritage that I'm having here.
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #61 - March 15, 2016, 05:12 PM

    I'm the same. I also do the same when talking about my belief in God.
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #62 - March 15, 2016, 06:01 PM

    Language is a fascinating and powerful phenomenon. It lives, grows and changes right along with its population of speakers. When you learn your native language, nobody sits you down with lessons or lists of vocabulary words. You simply absorb the language based on how you hear it used, with meanings and context bestowed by the speaker. Words take on meaning by how they are used, not the other way around. This is why you get so many dialects of the same language with subtle (or not so subtle) differences centered in different geographic regions.

    Recently, a new definition for the word "literally" was added to the Oxford, Cambridge and Merriam-Webster dictionaries, and probably others. Literally now means both "literally" and "not literally" because of how people USE it. It has been essentially redefined, and it's not right or wrong. It's the way language evolves.

    Words do also have history, and their meanings have power. Someone's specific word choices can tell you a lot about who they are and how they view the world. To reclaim a word with a certain history imbues your usage of that word with its history, influencing the implications, impact, emotions and indeed the very meaning behind what you intend to communicate.

    What would happen if I decided to call my secular meditation “salah,” and other people caught on and did the same?

    What would happen if you referred to whatever dietary regimen you committed yourself to as “sawm,” and retained perhaps some vague idea of self-restraint and delayed gratitude for the overall betterment of yourself.

    The differences between "meditation" and "salah" and between "diet" and "sawm" are vast, deep and complex. If someone has decided to change the way they eat, whether THEY call it a diet or sawm reveals a lot about THEIR intentions and motivations, as well as what personal values they hold. And that's what makes language so powerful: a single word choice communicates so much more than the simple definition of the word, and that's also why definitions can and do -- and should! -- change.

    For someone like HM and many of us here, for whom Islamic words and symbols have deep personal history and meaning, it is absolutely possible and perhaps even necessary to carry those words and let them grow and evolve along with us, our experiences influencing their meanings just as much as their meanings have influenced our lives.

    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #63 - March 15, 2016, 06:51 PM

    Hmmmmmmm....

    Thanks for the reply HM. I'm just struggling with how we can construct a coherent narrative of what Islam 'is' based upon such broad, vague definitions in which language is redefined. Whose 'meaning' do we accept?? Not only that there is the issue of 'value'. Whose meaning has the most value?? If there are no firm foundations and a whole range of meaning can be applied to most words then upon what firm basis can academia stand??/ Is then a job for rhetoricians to come up with the best arguments???

    Quote
    For someone like HM and many of us here, for whom Islamic words and symbols have deep personal history and meaning, it is absolutely possible and perhaps even necessary to carry those words and let them grow and evolve along with us, our experiences influencing their meanings just as much as their meanings have influenced our lives.


    For many of us? I grew up as an ardent Muslim. It's not just an issue for certain people. And it's people perhaps like me that faced the brunt of those words and those who are suffering because of words that want the world to know the meaning of those words. Trying to superficially alter the meaning to mirror some rainbow type glittery idealistic reinterpretation can seem like a slap in the face to some who have suffered and who still are suffering.

    To me reform means facing the facts. And it's still not accepted that all the words and meanings derived were grounded in superstition. What gave those words legitimacy/authority was Allah and (supposed) Prophethood. To re-appropriate those words without even believing in the 'source' is dishonest isn't it? It's playing mind games.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #64 - March 15, 2016, 07:18 PM

    Reformreformreform!


    <Reform> in itself is a heteronymous word whose pronunciation (therefore its meaning) depends on its grammatical identity. That is to say, the context in which it is used. Hyphenation in this case is a matter of style and is absent from all authoritative English dictionaries. So, you can be really imaginative and re-spell the second vowel differently without adding any clarification to the problem e.g. ‘refawm’. Or the second consonant as ‘rephorm’ giving it pharmaceutical hauteur.

    How could this be anybody’s worthwhile is what a cursory look at all this might provoke.

    Few optimistic scholars say it is inertia but many others say that unlike Catholicism, English spelling does not have one undisputed central authority who can by a virtue of a decree usher in simplified and logical spelling of English — where on the letter’s level, each letter represents one sound (more technically, each grapheme must correspond to one phoneme).

    In the context of raising educational standards, the British Prime Minister David Cameron quote-mined Professor John Wells, a leading British phonetician, about the topic of English spelling. In his speech, the good professor was advocating spelling tolerance to be allowed in the context of text messaging, emailing, internet chats etc. and was not advocating anything-goes spelling policy.

    However, those involved in the English Spelling Society and others do campaign for simplifying how English is spelt (or should that be "spelled"?). The reformists and advocates for this campaign came up with lots of logical alternatives to reduce the idiosyncrasies of contemporary written English. They call them remedies. A quick example is that they say <friend> should be spelt as ‘frend’ because the word rhymes with bend, tend, therefore the letter <i> has got no business to be there.

    In fact, there are literary scholars who dispute that William Shakespeare was the single author of his oeuvre. They tend to suggest Francis Bacon as the ghost writer of some if not all Shakespearean works. For them, this is a matter of literary historicity. That is to say, it is highly unlikely that one individual of medium education and financially struggling background could singlehandedly produce a work of genius that he then went on maintaining again and again in everything he wrote regardless of genre. If you want to know more about this, look up the Baconian as opposed to Stradfordian theory of Shakespeare authorship.

    One well-known fact about Shakespearean plays is the presence of bad quartos next the authorised First Folio. Simply put, there are inconsistencies between different editions. Indeed, Shakespeare has spelt his own name when signing legal and official documents differently.

    This has been used by some dialectologists not as evidence for his dyslexia or anything like that, but rather as giving us an idea about what written English was like before it was 'standardised' by the scribes and ultimately, before mass literacy (and before any publisher or printing house wised up to the unscientific nature of any prescriptivist approach to language). Thus, they hypothesize that people personalised written English and spelt it as they spoke it in their own accents. Standardisation, they would tell you, is like globalisation in that it has the false effect of harmonising, when in reality it is impoverishing, the rich diversity of spoken English.

    In the face of English being the de facto only admissible language in many serious, academic and or professional fields, there is such a thing as 'endangered languages' that warrants urgent preservationist work.

    This was a train of thought <reform> put in motion.
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #65 - March 15, 2016, 07:28 PM

    Oh and another thing. Descriptive writing is heaven enough free for all her glasses of French red wine. I now let you work out the structural ambiguity of this sentence to make you some tea. That’s another one. What a difference a comma makes! Whether it is Eye or the sentence above that turns out to be the agent of your pleasure, do you take sugar?
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #66 - March 15, 2016, 07:54 PM

    Hmmmmmmm....

    Thanks for the reply HM. I'm just struggling with how we can construct a coherent narrative of what Islam 'is' based upon such broad, vague definitions in which language is redefined. Whose 'meaning' do we accept?? Not only that there is the issue of 'value'. Whose meaning has the most value?? If there are no firm foundations and a whole range of meaning can be applied to most words then upon what firm basis can academia stand??/ Is then a job for rhetoricians to come up with the best arguments???


    I'm curious as to whether or not you have the same issue with Judaism. They've been doing this same sort of thing successfully for a while now. Of course you don't believe that Moses was into Kabbalah or played with dreidels. No one is harping on about how that's not "real" Judaism. Secular and atheist Jews have preserved and are proud of their symbols.

    Quote
    For many of us? I grew up as an ardent Muslim. It's not just an issue for certain people. And it's people perhaps like me that faced the brunt of those words and those who are suffering because of words that want the world to know the meaning of those words. Trying to superficially alter the meaning to mirror some rainbow type glittery idealistic reinterpretation can seem like a slap in the face to some who have suffered and who still are suffering.

    To me reform means facing the facts. And it's still not accepted that all the words and meanings derived were grounded in superstition. What gave those words legitimacy/authority was Allah and (supposed) Prophethood. To re-appropriate those words without even believing in the 'source' is dishonest isn't it? It's playing mind games.


    I don't disagree with you here. And I'd say I've definitely done my fair share of "facing the facts" when it comes to what these things have historically meant. In practice, though, I realize I don't need to talk about Muslims as though I am completely removed from the experience of being one. I am/was a Muslim. Full fledged. Card carrying. I went through a process that saw me completely lose faith in the literal authenticity of the codified teachings and I did not shy away from calling BS when I saw it. I think my posts here can attest to that and my views haven't changed at all in that regard.

    All I'm saying now though is that as I realize that there is no ultimate "Truth," it follows that anything people call Islam today is a matter of interpretation. Islam as we know it, in any form, is a product of this world.

    I gather that this might be the point you are struggling with the most. I propose that we can never know a "true" Islam because we are too far removed from whatever that might have been when it emerged. All we have are the codified writings of jurists and politicians who lived long ago, as well as the language, terms, and symbols they used to promote their versions. Islam has manifested itself in countless ways through the practice of people since then. It is that practice that gives the language meaning.

    It would be like if a group of Greeks got together and tried to establish a "True Spartan Community." What would that even mean? They might preserve some of the symbolism, some of the language, some of the concepts, but can there ever be such a thing recreated in the modern world? I don't think so. The more you'd try, the more absurd it would become. It would probably look a lot like the state of affairs in much of the Islamic world.

    Understanding the use of symbols, language, and concepts in a society is key to understanding what I'm discussing here. Human beings are attracted to symbolism. It's why we have things like flags and anthems. They tie us together. They represent things that do not actually exist without human beings to practice them. The use of the flag of the Arab Revolt comes to mind. It was created by the British during the war to rally the Arabs into combat, but it is now a symbol of Arab unity and nationalism.

    What I am proposing is that people who are familiar with Islam's symbolism but do not believe in the literal truth of the codified texts can preserve that symbolism as their own. It IS our own. We can do with it whatever we want. I've already illustrated how this has been done throughout history, and I believe we can do it again.

     
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #67 - March 15, 2016, 08:12 PM

    I have never spoken about absolute truth at all. It seems what you are proposing is something I've seen again and again - it's not knew with Islam with people like Irshad Manji claiming to reclaim space.

    I've spoken about the issue of historicity before and how we need to base meanings upon the best evidence available rather than solely ideological leaning. Read my previous posts. If you get it, you get it. If you don't you don't.

    Again - it's disingenuous to disregard Allah and the supernatural element. You can't claim to be a Muslim who follows Islam without believing in all the attributes of Allah described in the Quran.

    It's like being a Star Wars fan without the 'stars' or 'wars. It's just a label that you attach to yourself and your philosophy. And that's what Islam will relegate itself to - anything and everything.

    Islam is not just symbols but rituals, legal codes, politics and musings about that thing between your legs. How can you address such issues???/

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #68 - March 15, 2016, 08:20 PM

    Quote
    Understanding the use of symbols, language, and concepts in a society is key to understanding what I'm discussing here. Human beings are attracted to symbolism. It's why we have things like flags and anthems. They tie us together. They represent things that do not actually exist without human beings to practice them. The use of the flag of the Arab Revolt comes to mind. It was created by the British during the war to rally the Arabs into combat, but it is now a symbol of Arab unity and nationalism.


    I understand symbols of course.

    I taught sociology and there is a whole unit on interpretivism and symbolic representation. Just think of how people greet each other throughout the world. Or how a rose can be used to symbolise love or condolences.

    The flag and the Arab Revolt. What you don't get is - that by re appropriating it you acknowledge that it meant  or stood for something else originally. So long as you don't white wash history and claim that this is what ALWAYS stood for. It's like with anything else - you can't erase history and say this is what it had meant because originally it meant something else. For example, a castle was used to house the King and inside torture of those who committed treason took place. Centuries later it is used as a strip club. It doesn't eman it was always used as a strip club.

    You have a right to say that this is what I desire, or in my opinion. But there facts that can't be avoided and when trying to reinterpret symbols you will always encounter that difficulty of authenticity. Key word there - authenticity. Validity too is a keyword. All the power to you if you say 'well it's my right and I can do what I want'. But these are some of the elat of the questions you'll encounter.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #69 - March 15, 2016, 08:26 PM

    Quote
    You can't claim to be a Muslim who follows Islam without believing in all the attributes of Allah described in the Quran.


    Says who??? And as understood by whom? I'm saying I can. How can anyone stop me?

    I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

    Quote
    It's like being a Star Wars fan without the 'stars' or 'wars. It's just a label that you attach to yourself and your philosophy. And that's what Islam will relegate itself to - anything and everything.


    No. It's like someone saying you can't call yourself a Star Wars fan unless you've watched all the Star Wars movies in sequence as outlined by the Official Star Wars Fan Club Inc while wearing a stock issued Chewbacca costume.  

    Quote
    [Islam is not just symbols but rituals, legal codes, politics and musings about that thing between your legs. How can you address such issues???


    That's all part of what I mean by the term symbols. "sha'aa'ir" in Arabic.

    Quote
    It seems what you are proposing is something I've seen again and again - it's not knew with Islam with people like Irshad Manji claiming to reclaim space.


    Except I'm fully admitting I don't believe in it literally. Do you not get that what I'm talking about is something I actually already do? I'm not speaking about something abstract. I do it for myself because I find it comforting/familiar/beneficial, etc. I don't get why you think I need someone else's approval to make it legitimate. Islam is just as much mine as it is theirs.  
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #70 - March 15, 2016, 08:45 PM

    This will be my last response on this particular issue, since I don’t think I’ll be able to convey to you what I mean if you don’t get it from this post.

    The reason I feel comfortable not considering what has become codified as Islam to be “true” Islam is because it all bears all the hallmarks of after-the-fact human compilation and codification. This should be evidently true as it relates to the sunnah, so I won’t bother explaining it.

    Even as it relates to the Qur’an, however, there are the tell-tale signs of an edited and amended script composed after the fact. There are many examples of this, ones that in any other document would point to the work of multiple hands and a process of revision.

    Read Surah Maryam, for example, and tell me where you think the style shifts and the subject matter reinforces a particular dogmatic agenda. The same is true of Surah Muzammil and Surah Najm. The shift is pretty obvious to me. Of course, Islamic scholars have used the excuse of abrogation to account for what clearly happened to those surahs. I don’t disagree that it was abrogation. I Just think it’s more likely that that abrogation did not come from one author named Muhammad.

    So again, I’ll pick up whatever I want from the rubble and call it whatever I want. If it works for me I’ll use it, if it doesn’t I won’t. I'm not sure why you think that can't be done.


  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #71 - March 15, 2016, 09:46 PM

    You don't need to explain multiple hands of the Quran. I know it very well. Too well in fact.

    Muslim is a follower of Islam and one who believes in Allah and that the Quran is His divine.y revealed book and !Muhammad is His Messenger. If you don't believe these things and still consider yourself Muslim select your own straight jacket. I used to call myself a cultural Muslim. But that's stretching it.

    Why bring up Sarah this, that or the other. The issue is to do with logic and your views are not logically sound. They take something that is shaky and shake it up even further.

    There's no need to get defensive as no one is forcing you to reply. I've told you that reinterpretation can be done. The issue is authenticity and validity. Islam is intertwined wit the supernatural.  I'm just trying to figure out particular aspects of this reclaiming Islam for an ex-Muslim by reinterpreting symbols.

    I never said you need my approval.

    Anyway, Peace.

    I'll re-read your posts and think back on it.

    Again don't take offence. I'm just interested in this PoV. It makes the whole project Hassan did with the Quran rather futile.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #72 - March 15, 2016, 10:28 PM

    Some of you guys need to learn about Islam and need to learn about  Haya

    Quote
    "Haya" is  the main  reason you will not find collective shower rooms in school dorms, community gyms, or army barracks where persons of the same gender freely undress and shower in front of each other.  

    so stop undressing yourself in the public forum and follow the rules of Haya


    Quote
    1). Haya is the reason many Muslim men and women prefer to be seen and treated by a doctor of the same gender.  

    2). You will not find the demonstration of public affection between spouses in public because of Haya . That loving relationship is considered a private joy

    3). It is due to Haya  bedroom scenes, explicit language, and sexual innuendo are not part of  TV and movies.


    So have some Haya  and put on some, Hijab, Niqab on your posts... and and read/learn about haya  finmad finmad

    http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/Haya.htm
    http://www.islamicbulletin.org/newsletters/issue_23/haya.aspx
    Go join Ummah.com

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #73 - March 16, 2016, 03:34 PM

    I lied. I’m a sucker for internet debates. Of course I’m not offended, Jedi.

    I’m trying to get you to consider the issue beyond what is “logically sound.” We’re talking about religion here. Of course it’s not logically sound. It’s also not “historically sound.” It is entirely made up by people with agendas. Let’s stop giving them this false platform of legitimacy. The doctrines that we consider "orthodox" have actually evolved and were codified over time.

    The reason I brought up “Surah this and that” is because not even the Qur’an is “historically sound.” It is the amalgamation of human endeavors. It was compiled by politicians. Knowing that, we are free to use the same language that has been imposed upon us by those seeking to control behavior using the symbolism that developed around the story of Muhammad and his supposed revelations.

    What I’m arguing for is something of a coup, but not just for the sake of one. Those symbols and traditions are ours as well – including the label of “Muslim” if we want to use it. There is no “real” way to be a Muslim. A study of all of the theological debates that have occurred throughout history by people claiming the term should prove this.

    My father gave me my Muslim name. My mother taught me how to make wudhu, and how to recite ayat kursi, and how to fast. This stuff is mine, too. I can use it and call myself whatever I want whenever I want.  It's not for an academic to decide, nor a mulla or imam to approve. It has nothing to do with what someone else might consider to be "logically sound." There's no such thing when you're talking about an ancient religious tradition that has always evolved based on how it has been practiced (and that is itself an amalgamation of earlier spiritual traditions).
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #74 - March 16, 2016, 04:52 PM

    What I’m arguing for is something of a coup, but not just for the sake of one. Those symbols and traditions are ours as well – including the label of “Muslim” if we want to use it.

    This is exactly how I feel. If I'm going to have an identity label imposed on me, then I have the right to define it the way I want. Anyone who stands in my way is reifying orthodox Islam and essentially standing in the way of my struggle to liberate myself from its oppressive forces.
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #75 - March 16, 2016, 06:05 PM

    Jedi, I had wanted to refer you and others to another discussion on CEMB specifically on the matter of reforming Islam from within and the authenticity problem all reconstructivist approaches to Islam face. I did not because I wanted to see if this topic was going to yield anything invigorating or plain new. Now that the possibilities of such an intellectual profit seem to be ebbing away, I give you the link to that similar discussion: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=29301.0

    My views, as expressed in this thread, remain unchanged. That is, external forces like us, Ex Muslims, cannot convincingly appropriate any interpretation of scriptural Islam as our own fluffy flavour, having, as we would, our reformist desires and wishes as this New Islam's frame of reference.

    Of course we can do this make-believe Islam ourselves for ourselves, making it fit for our own consumption. Nobody can object to this actual ability per se (after all, at least in the West, we live in free countries). However, that New Islam is intransitive and wouldn’t convince anyone else beside ourselves, until of course we grow fat and fool and start recruiting and trying to dishonestly pass it on as something objective and or supported by Islamic texts.

    Words belong to their community of speech and they are communally owned. The meaning of any word is not owned by an individual. In fact, meaning does not reach the state of wordhood until it is comprehended as well as used by other people beside yourself or the coiner.

    Sure, you can invent brand new words, words which look English because they adhere to its phonotactical rules; something like fondoggle and defultramental. Granted, you can then prance around insisting these two mean a lot and mean things only you can designate and discern. Chomsky’s “colourless green ideas sleep furiously” comes to mind. But this freedom was never in question.

    Further, the circular subjectivity of saying “the notion X as defined by me is mine and true because I say so and live so” is inimical to a conducive learning exchange because of its territorial finality and proprietorial exclusivity.

    Also it is worthy of note that this is not an argument against raiding the traditionalist tafsir books for the purpose of locating and adopting all the inoffensive, conducive to modernity interpretations of the Quran. No, let’s not conflate things.

    My argument is not against that approach because that approach is honest about its expurgating purpose. Whatever pacifying role this approach may play, it is likely to be truly inspired by the Quranic text (2:185). Inspired also by ahadith such as Yassir Wala Tu’assir and “treat people with ease and do not be hard on them; give them glad tidings and don’t make them run away from Islam” – narrated by Bukhari and Muslim. Therefore, this approach has its proponents as traditional Muslims and actual believers in the ultimate truth of Allah and the Islamic texts; their said textual expedience is still operating with propriety, thus its products I’d argue to be Islamically authentic.

    If agreed, this expurgating approach is already catered for within Islamic Figh (الإستئناس أو عدم الشذوذ بالرأي). That is to say, examining the books and sayings of previous religious practitioners and ulama in order to find favourable views, however fringe and not persuasive these may be, to match and support your own desired ones. This utilising evidence manipulation is nothing new in Islam. It is nothing new outside of Islam either, as any lawyering first year student can tell you all you need about the obiter dicta in common law reasoning; all the sayings, arguments and rulings that are not binding.

    What you are saying is very legitimate, Jedi, indeed rudimentary in any respected academic setting and for anyone who wishes to convince others. Call it a Muhammedian. Call it an Ash'ari. Call it a Muslim. The frontier of this objective identity might throughout the Islamic history be shifting but is nevertheless always recognisable.

    You are not indulging in intentional self-deception which practically is what the view differing from yours seems to advance. If you ask me to conjecture why, I’d say it’s perhaps because the differing view has grown tired of the daily diet of insulting Islam for the heck of it and because it now wants to re-join by adding something positive to the damn faith that couldn't be beaten on its own objective terms. This latter, then, is more like the negotiation stage of the Five Stages of Grief.

    I often find it a great source of laughter more than anything else that I take anti-depressant medication to stablise my mood swings, to chase off anxiety and longish bouts of ennui. To fight back anhedonia, in other words. Thus, I know most if not all of my buzz and clappiness is induced by 'happy' pills and psychoactive drugs. But what I try not to do then is to turn around attaching my merrymaking to myself or to a change of scenery, or to lots of things too far removed from the causative nature of these drugs, all that simply because I cannot live with and am trying to escape the inconvenient truth of my clappiness being manufactured in a scientific lab.   

    In relation to the Islamic reconstructivism or ‘reclamation’ advanced by a few lovely individuals here, it is nothing entirely new if you think about those hadith narrators, towards the end of the Umayyad and throughout the Abbasid Caliphates, who deliberately fabricated a lot of ahadith (plural) not for destroying but to actually spread the message of Allah and His messenger. These narrators were lying for the prophet, not against him. They were lying for, not against, Islam. Still, this well-intended dawa project was rightfully met with failure; and, a whole new and (seemingly) vigorous tradition of Islamic hadith narration was organically invented, Mustalah Al-Hadith, to separate the wheat from the chaff.

    Sticking with the Quran, the thorny issue of Majaz in interpreting certain verses is something which is regularly discussed at length in any thorough, systematic approach to tafsir in Arabic. We have fully-fledged Manahij Al-Mufassirin — The Methodologies of Quranic Commentary. Evidently, there’s a method to this madness.

    Wising up to how slippery this Majaz road was, the danger this non-literal and metaphor based approach was, who else was it but Ibn Taymiyyah who brought out the machine gun strongly arguing against its Quranic occurrence altogether.

    I cite him, perhaps to the immediate chagrin of some, because he is the Shaykh of Islam in Aquidah and Figh as far as traditionalist (NB not necessarily literalist) Sunnis of today are concerned. For this great panjandrum and for lots of the Sunni scholars, dead and contemporary scholars whose works I had assiduously studied, the Quran is true in its literality and they deem this maxim self-evident until there's another adducible, authentic, sufficient textual evidence to justify differently interpreting anything, to justify unusually departing from whatever its closest literal meaning was.

    Thus, Majaz-based approaches, as you would agree, have more textual kinship, however far-fetched, to scriptural Islam as to resist our summary dismissal on grounds of wilful inventiveness — in this case, lying against scriptural Islam as opposed to the misguided hadith narrators above.

    As such, there is nothing authentic to be gained by any serious Islamic learner from entertaining the imposed, necessarily anodyne reformist wishes on the Quranic text which it could not linguistically, historically or logically support them.

    ----------------
    Edited to remedy spelling and other solecisms.
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #76 - March 16, 2016, 06:27 PM

    I love you, wahhabist.  far away hug

    Quote
    That is, external forces like us, Ex Muslims, cannot convincingly appropriate any interpretation of scriptural Islam as our own fluffy flavour, having, as we would, our reformist desires and wishes as this New Islam's frame of reference.


    I don't think we are as external as we like to think we are. You likely know more about Islam than 98% of the people who claim the label. Your experience is a uniquely Muslim one, love it or hate it. You are what happens when the light of reason shines upon someone familiar with Islamic texts.

    I'm not looking backwards to see what medieval jurists had to say about what constitutes Islam. I'm looking at the example of countless secularists from Christian backgrounds or from Jewish backgrounds that have no problems retaining the traditions from which they hail. No one ever questions them. Yes. I believe we can do the same.

    Now, it's up to you how you ultimately want to identify. Still, I don't think we are doing ourselves any favors by ceding ground to the writings of medieval ulama and mufassiroon.

    Completely up to you, though.  

    Quote
    a whole new and (seemingly) vigorous tradition of Islamic hadith narration was organically invented, Mustalah Al-Hadith, to separate the wheat from the chaff.


    Do you really think those efforts were successful? You've no doubt studied the "science" of hadith. Do you truly believe it "separated the wheat from the chaff?" Or is it more like the process of codification that I've talked about earlier, solidifying the dogma of a particular point of view? This myth that these 9th and 10th century Muhaddithoon came into the world of Islam and suddenly "jaa al haqqu wa zahaq al batil" is unbelievable. It plays into the hands of those who have dubbed themselves vanguards of the symbolism of the Muhammad movement.

    I realize I likely won't change your mind, since you seem to be intent on viewing Islam as only what has been codified and transmitted. I believe that any religion is as that religion is manifested in practice. Islam is no exception.

    Anyone who truly believes that they are suddenly surgically removed from the organic evolution of Islamic tradition and thought simply because they have committed "kufr" is free to believe that. The more I interact with the secular world, however, the more I realize that even our own traditions and symbols can have a place there, too. I'm not asking for permission.

    And I'll just leave this here. They aren't real Jews anyhow.
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #77 - March 16, 2016, 07:13 PM

    I lied. I’m a sucker for internet debates. Of course I’m not offended, Jedi.

    I’m trying to get you to consider the issue beyond what is “logically sound.” We’re talking about religion here. Of course it’s not logically sound. It’s also not “historically sound.” It is entirely made up by people with agendas. Let’s stop giving them this false platform of legitimacy. The doctrines that we consider "orthodox" have actually evolved and were codified over time.

    The reason I brought up “Surah this and that” is because not even the Qur’an is “historically sound.” It is the amalgamation of human endeavors. It was compiled by politicians. Knowing that, we are free to use the same language that has been imposed upon us by those seeking to control behavior using the symbolism that developed around the story of Muhammad and his supposed revelations.

    What I’m arguing for is something of a coup, but not just for the sake of one. Those symbols and traditions are ours as well – including the label of “Muslim” if we want to use it. There is no “real” way to be a Muslim. A study of all of the theological debates that have occurred throughout history by people claiming the term should prove this.

    My father gave me my Muslim name. My mother taught me how to make wudhu, and how to recite ayat kursi, and how to fast. This stuff is mine, too. I can use it and call myself whatever I want whenever I want.  It's not for an academic to decide, nor a mulla or imam to approve. It has nothing to do with what someone else might consider to be "logically sound." There's no such thing when you're talking about an ancient religious tradition that has always evolved based on how it has been practiced (and that is itself an amalgamation of earlier spiritual traditions).



    I get it. I understand what you mean in your motivations and intent.

    However, no discussion of the words Muslim to refer to people has ever been disassociated with Islam - the supernatural, Allah save for perhaps in a socilogical/psychoogical sense to do with political or cultural identity. For example Johal did sociological studies of Muslims in Britain who retained their Muslim identity whilst fornicating and getting intoxicated. But they still believed in Allah and the mystical elements of Islam. The same with Sikhs and Hindus. Muslim and Allah are inextricably linked. A Muslim is one who submits to Allah. Again any one group of people can make a claim and say that 'Muslim' just means one who is loving. That's a lie. A Muslim is one who submits his will to Allah. We all know that. We all lived that. Over a billion live that reality. To say it's anything else is not true.

    However, I ill fight for your right to use Muslim how you want. But, we have to trawl through this and paste the various interpretations out there and determine, via positivist/interpretivist methods, which is most accurate using a cross-pollination of disciplines. You no doubt know this.

    I've learnt to let go of Islam and have no desire whatsoever to mould it into something it isn't. A world in which we can say 'because there are all these views therefore there is no 'true' view' is a very dangerous one. It undermines the foundations of our learning and progress. It is what so many having been fighting against when you hear people reinterpret an Arabic word to fit with current scientific understanding. Why shouldn't they reinterpret it?? They have a right. But we have a duty to be responsible. Likely, this symbolic reinterpretism will not find favour simply because it is far removed from the original meanings of the words.

    I also consider it disrespectful to those who genuinely follow the Muslim faith and believe in Allah.
    And of course you can always locate a text to particular time and place. You most certainly can. Hell, if historians can do that with texts such as the Odysseus then we can most certainly do that with the Quran. It takes effort but we can take the original meaning - or as close to - which is far more authentic and genuine than anything that is more recent (reformist movement or dawahgandist).

    All the best to you in your own symbolism but how far will it go? To what extent will inform debates on Islamic texts that you engage. Again, whose 'symbol' is valued more yours that is built out of desire or an academics that is actually the product of specialized peer-assessed knowledge? How will you engage with and counter those have competing symbols to yours who think just as you do?


    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #78 - March 16, 2016, 07:19 PM

    Quote
    No one ever questions them


    Yes they do. There are loads of literalists in the Jewish faith and the Christian faith and the debate is still ongoing. Just because there is discrepancy on some parts doesn't eman there is n't conformity on others. Again, just because the dominant discourse is monopolized by perhaps some secular, liberal minded Christians in the West (as is the case with much academia) doesn't mean the there are vast differences. And the differences, evolution, is more economical- political-sociological than it is to do with theological musings. It is patently obvious that the early Christians that cobbled together the religious texts believed or at least made themselves believe the stories to be literally true. That is ORIGIN. We can't deny that. We can no doubt say that it has evolved, but that is x v.1 or x v.2 and not the real deal. We can go back and see the original source.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #79 - March 16, 2016, 07:22 PM

    I can bore everyone more but I think I have made my methodological resistance clear enough in my previous post above.

    Another thing I find interesting to think about though, is the problem of Islamic violent extremists about whom we are talking all along if indirectly. That is to say, is it contentual or contextual?

    So far, political leaders and so-called ‘moderates’ tell us it is conclusively contextual i.e. they have genuine situational grievances such as racism, poverty, precariatism, dysfunctional families, single-parent families, bad neighbourhoods, lack of education and or employment opportunities etc. that make them self-actualise by turning to jihad in the name of Islam. “This”, they point to X, Y or Z act of mass killing or civilian bombing “is not Islam”. It so happens that this gets followed not necessarily all the time by the non-sequitur “Islam is a religion of peace”.

    I get the fact that in political calculations, it is foolish for any country, blighted by acts of Islamic bombings, to throw the front line widely open with 1.5 billion people by calling their faith terrorism. Indeed it is foolish for a Western government adviser, let alone secretary or minister, to tie such acts up with anything but contextual ideation — and progressive agendas — because they’d probably face the chop and be speedily officially dissociated with. To complete this dramatis personae, now the role of the ‘moderates’ kicks in; you see them with their Taqiyahs and non-Western attire on television screens, on different channels, making the exact claim “this is not Islam”. The fact of these ‘moderates’ having beards or not is moot. But the unmistakable traditionalist imagery being projected is usually to legitimise and give the exact claim “this is not Islam” contentual compliance.

    Others say that the problem of Islamic violent extremists is contentual. That is, it is the content of the Islamic texts that justifies and encourages such acts of barbarism. For such thinkers, there’s no point in trying to fight verses with other verses. Revealed in Mecca or in Madina.

    Thus, no amount of fanciful interpretations can contextualise the stench of permanent Jihad against the Kuffs found in this Madina verse in At-tawbah [9:29]:

    قاتلوا الذين لا يؤمنون بالله ولا باليوم الآخر ولا يحرمون ما حرم الله ورسوله ولا يدينون دين الحق من الذين اوتوا الكتاب حتى يعطوا الجزية عن يدٍ وهم صاغرون

    Officially and on governments’ level, the West cannot say or accept contentualising terrorism because of political considerations, some of which I have eluded to above. In addition to this, freedom of religion is guaranteed in law and this freedom is all encompassing and would render banning certain aspects of contentual Quran as unlawful.

    Not to forget policies of social cohesion. I speak as the co-author of a legal report to Family Court in the UK on the validity of an Islamic marriage and how the court was being encouraged by the professor and legal jurist I was assisting to consider social cohesion and practise its discretionary powers not to send the wrong message upsetting governmental cohesive policies.

    It’s really interesting that it has fallen to the Egyptian President Abdul Fatah Al Sisi to say unequivocally that the problem of Islamic violent extremism is contentual. His speech was plastered all over the news and was the headline on many news websites, including those showing signs of what some would call regressive leftism. It is as if everybody was waiting for Wa Shahida Shahid Min Ahhliha. As if Sisi himself was an authority in such matters for Muslims in Egypt and elsewhere.

    Indeed, it is not far-fetched to suggest that the issues being dealt with in My Ordeal with the Quran are contentual in nature. To mistake its contentuality for what is largely incidental is to miss the relevant point in its entirety.

    Although I have come to see the Islamic violent extremism problem to be partially contextual, it remains for me to be massively contentual. I myself had believed it was my contentual duty in 2001 to aid my Muslim brothers and sisters in Afghanistan against the West. If my father didn’t learn about my plans and didn’t confiscate my passport, I would really have been one of those Islamic violent extremists.

    When the chance came again in Iraq, six out of my thirty Quranic students crossed the Syrian border to Iraq and died fighting in the way of Allah. My brother in-law was one of those fighters who attacked Abu-Gouraib Prison facilitating detainees’ mass escape.

    All of this was under the influence of a contentual duty.

    My brother in-law managed then to fight in Yemen before finally opting for a sedentary life on civvy street. He is happily married now but still believes it is his Islamic contentual duty to hate and fight the filthy kuffars anywhere they may be. His somewhat early retirement from fabulous Jihad is something he puts down to his laziness and weakness. Not ideological or contextual.

    I appreciate this is now turning autobiographical, in the same manner the previous post risked appearing glossological. I am thinking here and though I've always been an auto-didact, I am no didact. Only standing up for a method of truth discovery which, at least, enjoys a modicum of rigour and academic respectability against experimental approaches to traditional Islam.

    Contextual or contentual. It is a bit of both and in practice a lot of either. This 'either' for now at least I'm persuaded to say it is the content of the Quran for a lot of the otherwise educated, affluent violent extremists.

    ----------------------
    Edited to remedy etc.
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #80 - March 16, 2016, 07:23 PM

    Now that the possibilities of such an intellectual profit seem to be ebbing away,


    Thanks. It means a lot.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #81 - March 16, 2016, 07:25 PM


    I appreciate this is now turning autobiographical, in the same manner the previous post risked appearing glossological. I am thinking here and though I've always been an auto-didact, I am no didact. Only standing up for a method of truth discovery which, at least, enjoys a modicum of rigour and academic respectability against experimental approaches to traditional Islam.



    I like your posts and I can fish through them. Post more. Just dumb it down a bit, Shakespeare. I had a looooooooong day of teaching and after-school revision to do.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #82 - March 16, 2016, 07:59 PM

    I appreciate what you are saying. In all honesty, I’m not necessarily looking to influence an academic debate. I completely agree that we can and should study what has been codified as sunni Islam over the ages, accepting it for what it is. That’s not much of my concern as I’m discussing this, however, and that might ultimately be the source of the disconnect we were experiencing.

    I am saying that for me, personally, as someone who has lived Islam through my childhood, studied Islam formally at an Islamic University, and left Islam completely for a truly secular lifestyle, I like the idea of reclaiming those aspects that have become a part of who I am, making them my own – not just as a statement of rebellion, but also because I do feel connected to those things. This is actually my relationship to the religion and tradition. It’s not contrived for the sake of reform.

    And as I suspect that there may indeed be more people out there who may have shared my experience and reached a similar state, I think that we are the only ones capable of forging such ground. This is what I mean when I say that I still believe that those things are mine. This is why I object to being told mine is not a valid interpretation of something that I have actually lived.  
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #83 - March 17, 2016, 12:54 AM

    Happymurtad, I love you too. You are a high priest in this cathedral of Sapere aude. You must’ve noticed how I was trying to focus on your ideas and not you the person, even though the thing you’re asserting your ownership of is your past which couldn’t have existed if you, the person, did not. This rational, somehow dehumanising way of having a discussion with you is to subdue my great love for you.

    I found myself in a hurry to conclude the other discussion with Hassan when you swerved into my scene in a Mustang GT after I had wished I was laughably wrong. Wanted to conclude it because I have this strangely selective way of not discussing things with others with whom I know I would always agree to disagree, for the simple fact that they are as informed if not more about the matter under discussion, and more importantly, others for whom I have a lot of love and respect.

    As a matter of fact, disagreeing with Hassan after having met him in person, after hugging him, after learning he is older than my father, felt like I was bad mouthing my elders and (loosely) betters. Where indeed have my manners gone?

    You might think this is silly of me which of course it is, but this is how I am constituted.

    I am biased towards those whom I admire; I, the one who visits the forum enjoying the fruits of your intellectual labour (by reading everything you post, without logging in, almost every day), cannot put on hold how much this place, you, Hassan, lau, musivore, Zaotar, justperusing, three and others mean to me.

    I will never shy away from my genuine irrational biases and this creeping madness for me creeps on creepishly; this after all is a support group for Islam survivors.

    Maybe it is because I’m a bit impatient with those who can’t keep up with me that I projected the same in you. Maybe it is something else. But I would never risk upsetting those I love for the pathetic sake of a thought experiment.

    I was thoroughly defeated and this discussion has ended as soon as you typed the three-word phrase, even though you have been trying to mark your own homework.
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #84 - March 17, 2016, 01:33 AM

    Well, I am a sucker for outright declarations of affection. Nice to see some positive emotion out here.
    But really I think y´all are viewing Islam very differently and therein lies the contrasting opinion. We have to remember that Islam predates the information age by quite a bit and historically many Muslim cultures did not understand or know of much fiqh at all.
    If you look at Islam as a series of communities, what I usually try to term as the Ummah, then you have a huge difference between codified and collected Arabic canon (Islam) and the vast generations of self-declared Muslims who practiced religion as they understood it (Islam).
    A quick read on this thread makes it look like y´all are just arguing fiqh versus ummah. Both make Islam, and both can make very different kinds of Islam, every kind, really, because there is probably that much diversion among text and that much diversion among people. 
    I have always argued that people softened the canon throughout the ages by interpreting it more humanely than they had to, more sympathetically than it was written, because they are kind hearted.
    The information age has thrown that on it´s ear, now. No one can claim not to understand a text anymore, or claim it means something nicer than it does.
    I feel both sides are technically correct. Islam has a rich history of interpretation, and a sad history of codification. Y´all just seem to be arguing the meaning of Islam, whether the followers define it, or whether the canon does. I vote the former and fear the latter to be true.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #85 - March 17, 2016, 10:39 AM

    It was an enlightening debate.

    I second the love in the forum.

    I'd like to think I've been enough of an active member of the forum and forged such relationships that when we get into debates, adversarial or otherwise, we don't need to reinforce our love. It's a given. I don't take things personally, especially when it's attacking ideas.

    Three, I agree that the more sympathetic issues. But keep in mind that those involved in canonisation wee too part of the ummah from all classes so I wouldn't characterise it as canon v ummah. Also, the ummah hold the Quran and Hadith in very high regard. It's only when the masses truly invest time and energy into Islamic scripture that they learn of its literalism. Those who pick and choose are the more saner and peaceful but it must be accepted, and we know this too, that the kind of Islam they practise is Islam lite. And that's not the issue either as canon can be subject to revision. It's that any informed debate on Islam must be informed by academic standards, which I don't want it to come across as arrogant, but I do apply a positivist/lesser interpretivist model.

    Remember my whole contention was with 'truth' and smaller 't' truths as absurdist pointed out. Which of these has higher value? In polite conversation we may say 'yes you have a right to interpret Islam in such a way' then how can we form any form of coherent argument as to what Islam is and what the laws are? How can we reform society from the clutches of Islam when we are focusing on the wrong thing - we should attack those silly words, injunctions and the various laws imposed via Islam and the abolishing the supernatural foundations of Islam. If not, then the debate is a non starter. It's only providing a facade to Islam.

    Of course, as HM if it's a personal thing then that's not an issue. But what if those ideas or personal preference and reinterpretation seep it to the public are and muddy the waters of the debate about Islam and what it prescribes? How will this alleviate the suffering of those subjected by Islam inspired violence? Discrimination? Reform is not enough. The complete annihilation of superstition is key as that removes the perceived legitimacy and authority that the Quran and Hadith have.

    But characterising the debate as simply canon v. Muslim ummah is missing the point.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #86 - March 17, 2016, 11:42 AM

    It was an enlightening debate.

    ........."The complete annihilation of superstition is key as that removes the perceived legitimacy and authority that the Quran and Hadith Islam  has"....................


    And that is the gist of all these discussions/debates and posts ...  so what do we need to do?

    1).   Complete annihilation of superstition

    2).  Complete removal  of legitimacy & authority of Quran and Hadith

    3). Every one must accept and understand  that  Quran  is not  word of God, but a literacy work of Human beings of its time.



    and I should mention here that  there is a REJECTAMONY guy in CEMB   who is writing similar stuff in cemb  http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=28556.0


    Now I am going to extend that jedi's  point  bit further to   Any one who will not accept those three points should be expunged from Islam and thrown out of Mosques/prayer rooms.

    That will solve  90% of  the problems around Islam  and the  faith  will become beacon to other faiths and faith heads. Once folks accept those three points then folks in Islam can follow  their personal Islam, cultural Islam, Family Islam, Islam of the locals and Islam of the their town or their mosque.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #87 - March 17, 2016, 01:16 PM

    It was an enlightening debate.

    I second the love in the forum.

    I'd like to think I've been enough of an active member of the forum and forged such relationships that when we get into debates, adversarial or otherwise, we don't need to reinforce our love. It's a given. I don't take things personally, especially when it's attacking ideas.

    Three, I agree that the more sympathetic issues. But keep in mind that those involved in canonisation wee too part of the ummah from all classes so I wouldn't characterise it as canon v ummah. Also, the ummah hold the Quran and Hadith in very high regard. It's only when the masses truly invest time and energy into Islamic scripture that they learn of its literalism. Those who pick and choose are the more saner and peaceful but it must be accepted, and we know this too, that the kind of Islam they practise is Islam lite. And that's not the issue either as canon can be subject to revision. It's that any informed debate on Islam must be informed by academic standards, which I don't want it to come across as arrogant, but I do apply a positivist/lesser interpretivist model.

    Remember my whole contention was with 'truth' and smaller 't' truths as absurdist pointed out. Which of these has higher value? In polite conversation we may say 'yes you have a right to interpret Islam in such a way' then how can we form any form of coherent argument as to what Islam is and what the laws are? How can we reform society from the clutches of Islam when we are focusing on the wrong thing - we should attack those silly words, injunctions and the various laws imposed via Islam and the abolishing the supernatural foundations of Islam. If not, then the debate is a non starter. It's only providing a facade to Islam.

    Of course, as HM if it's a personal thing then that's not an issue. But what if those ideas or personal preference and reinterpretation seep it to the public are and muddy the waters of the debate about Islam and what it prescribes? How will this alleviate the suffering of those subjected by Islam inspired violence? Discrimination? Reform is not enough. The complete annihilation of superstition is key as that removes the perceived legitimacy and authority that the Quran and Hadith have.

    But characterising the debate as simply canon v. Muslim ummah is missing the point.


    There is one element I believe you might be missing, Jedi, and that is the role that people like you, me, our esteemed Wahhabist, Shaikh Hassan, and the rest of us interested parties can and must play in this process. I am of course in complete support of people identifying in whatever manner they choose. I don’t often self-identify as “Muslim” in real life unless I’m speaking to someone who I’m certain would understand what I mean by it. The sorts of people I’m referencing are a part of my inspiration here.

    I said it earlier, but I think it’s worth mentioning again. We are what happens when the light of reason shines upon people familiar with Islamic texts. We are, in many regards, the “reform” we might be looking for. Now, we can easily say that we’ve moved on from Islam, that it no longer affects our lives, that we are external to the debate. As presumptuous as it might sound of me, I would completely challenge that assertion.

    Sure, even as we are up to our necks in enlightenment, even as we indulge in riba, zina, khamr, khinzeer, and most dreadfully, tafkeer (thinking), we are still tied to the tradition of the faith by our heritage. We don’t even know what it is like to experience life as someone who was raised a Jew or a Christian or without religion. Our experience is a uniquely Muslim one. Our thoughts – even our post-Islamic thoughts – are a product of our unique experience.

    The rest of the secular world is not full of people devoid of any sort of religious heritage. The question of the veracity of faith is a key issue of our entire generation. I’ve been fortunate enough to form real bonds with former/secular Christians, atheist Jews, ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses, and non-dogmatic Buddhists. We’d do well, I think, to take lessons from our secular brothers and sisters from Islam’s religious counterparts and not be so quick to detach ourselves completely – if even such a thing were possible. That heritage, after all, is the thing that bonds a Desi from the UK, an Arabic speaking Chadian, and a black kid from the American south. The world would lose something if there was no one to preserve elements of our heritage. We might be the prototype of actual Islamic reform.
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #88 - March 17, 2016, 01:50 PM

    Quote
    The rest of the secular world is not full of people devoid of any sort of religious heritage. The question of the veracity of faith is a key issue of our entire generation. I’ve been fortunate enough to form real bonds with former/secular Christians, atheist Jews, ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses, and non-dogmatic Buddhists. We’d do well, I think, to take lessons from our secular brothers and sisters from Islam’s religious counterparts and not be so quick to detach ourselves completely – if even such a thing were possible. That heritage, after all, is the thing that bonds a Desi from the UK, an Arabic speaking Chadian, and a black kid from the American south. The world would lose something if there was no one to preserve elements of our heritage. We might be the prototype of actual Islamic reform.

     


    Well personally I can still cherish quranic stories like the story of Moses, solomon etc and treat those quranic accounts the same way I treat all the cherish and remember the novels from my childhood. I also still like listening to sami yusufs islam themed music.

    For me personally I dont think  muslim is the right word for an attachment to quranic stories and sami yusuf songs.


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Why must Maryam Namazie take on the left in her critiques of Islamic extremism?
     Reply #89 - March 17, 2016, 02:01 PM

    Yeah. I get that the actual title of "Muslim" might not be the thing that people want to reclaim. As I said, I only ever call myself "Muslim" if I'm in a group of atheists anyhow and we all know what I mean by it.

    But whatever you do with the things that you want to reclaim (or don't want to reclaim) is entirely up to you. This is the huge point I think is worth making. We can't be so quick to want to restrict Islamic traditions to what fundamentalists say they have to be.
  • Previous page 1 2 34 5 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »