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Theme Changer

 Topic: A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris

 (Read 9798 times)
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  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #30 - March 06, 2016, 11:53 AM

    This seems like a dismissive attempt to brand any practical objections to such idealism as heartless and not coming from a place of genuine concern.


    Well said. That's exactly what it was.
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #31 - March 06, 2016, 06:52 PM

    Not everyone has the time and patience and energy to deal with views they think are bullshit. Some people are too exhausted dealing with real life to entertain other people's circle jerks and mental masturbation. No one is obligated to respond to anyone else's bullshit.


    True. But to do a drive by and say "you're clearly one of 'those' people who have no problem depriving others of their human rights" and essentially saying Helaine's response was ridiculous and she can't muster up the energy to respond to such "stupid" people, definitely comes off as arrogant and dismissive.

    My point is to fire shots and refuse to follow through is not a good tactic. And I see it more and more these days.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #32 - March 06, 2016, 09:13 PM

    Sorry to to give my 2p but I agree with Mr perusing about posts that can come across as dismissive and some other posts that can appear somewhat aggressive as that isn't necessarily the intention of the poster. I can say from previous experience that Barbarella probably in no way intended to come off as 'arrogant'.  It's probably the nature fo the topic. Helaine makes some valid points. Keep the dialogue going.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #33 - March 06, 2016, 09:30 PM

    Sorry to to give my 2p but I agree with Mr perusing about posts that can come across as dismissive and some other posts that can appear somewhat aggressive as that isn't necessarily the intention of the poster. I can say from previous experience that Barbarella probably in no way intended to come off as 'arrogant'.  It's probably the nature fo the topic. Helaine makes some valid points. Keep the dialogue going.


    Thanks Jedi. But Mr. Perusing is my father. Call me JP.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #34 - March 06, 2016, 11:53 PM

    I'm glad you have objective experience of the world and don't care to take other people's points of view into account. You commit the same shit you accuse Berbs of committing while accusing her.


    I included a number of examples with unethical immigration laws.

    In many developed countries, migrants DO have full rights. It depends on what you mean by "full rights" though. Citizen rights? No, because usually that requires 5-10 years of stay with clean track record before you're accepted as a citizen.

    I mean, open-border as a solution to regulated immigration (because the regulation isn't perfect!) seems to be... Screw the government, screw the police because they don't work 100% well. I gave you a list of the usual (more ethical) requirements for immigration, and they do seem fair, don't they? Or do you dislike any kind of government/rules?

    In my experience, there are reasons why some culture don't succeed. Some practices don't belong in the modern world, or at least in the host country immigrants try to come to. If the host country does not want to tolerate "bullshit" cultural baggage, then it's their right, no? Or must they muster patience and energy to accommodate such "bullshit"?

    Quote
    everyone is equally poor


    That's probably what would happen... Exactly why I think communism wouldn't work :\
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #35 - March 07, 2016, 08:26 AM

    Quote from: Helaine
    In my experience, there are reasons why some culture don't succeed. Some practices don't belong in the modern world, or at least in the host country immigrants try to come to. If the host country does not want to tolerate "bullshit" cultural baggage, then it's their right, no? Or must they muster patience and energy to accommodate such "bullshit"?

    It worth spending patience and energy to absorb people into your culture. To accommodate "bullshit" cultural baggage, no.

    Quote from: Helaine
    That's probably what would happen... Exactly why I think communism wouldn't work :\


    Communism as a political and social ideology may work better than democracy is some cultures. I really think is the best way for muslim majority countries. But as an economic ideology, is a disaster. It heavily relies upon people being perfect, which is utopian. That's why it has failed miserable everywhere where it was implemented. 

  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #36 - March 07, 2016, 02:16 PM

    Is that how it is? If it's "people like me" who's hurting, then we're just... don't want to take the rough part of it, but if it's "people like you" hurting, then that's REAL HURT and everybody else is so cruel?

    Do you really not consider anybody else in your equation?

    Are you really aware of the bad part of it or are you just pretending? I have lived most of my adult life as an immigrant. Everywhere I go, the immigration rules actually get stricter as time goes by. I have lived in Indonesia, Korea, and China now. The immigration rules are pretty basic, so I don't get why people really hate it. If you're only talking about gulf countries, then maybe state it in your post. Gulf countries are one of those countries that require exit visa (like, Indonesia). Exit Visa is bullshit.

    It used to be, any native English speakers can just go in and teach English. Now, every country I know require actual teaching license. Another example, Indonesia is really against foreign companies going in and "stealing" resources.

    Here is the requirement for immigrants to work:

    1. Criminal background check
    2. Endorsement from the company you work for (you must have a job).
    3. Health inspection... You can't get in if you have SARS, obviously. Possibly no health insurance if you're already seriously ill.
    4. If you bring spouse/children, then family+marriage certificate, birth certificate for your children, etc. They must pass all the previous checks.

    Can you state if any of this is unfair? The requirements will vary depending on where you go, because some countries will probably cap off the amount of immigrant workers depending on the unemployment rates in their country. Part of the host country's concern is to keep their own people employed, and that takes priorities over immigrants.

    Some countries are very discriminating. In Indonesia and China, immigrant rights are almost non-existent. But of course, in these countries it's not like human rights are any better, so... Gulf states also have exit visa and they commonly take your passport so you can't get out, that's horrifying. However, many countries do have fair immigration system.

    The way I take it, is that the host' values are not important. None of the host countries' concern are valid and regulations are heartless.

    I mean, immigrant integration is one of the concern most people have when it comes to accepting immigrants.


    Is immigration and econimic migration the only travel things that have criteria and conditions attached to them?  NO.  Please stop talking as if permanent settlement is the only thing that borders prevents. 

    I have family in Morocco who could never ever come to see me for a 2 week holiday over here because they can't meet the conditions set for it, I also cannot meet the conditions, I do not have a large sum of money in my bank out, or a job in which I make over a certain amount of money per year.  As a visiting lecturer I am on a zero hours contract, so I do not have a yearly wage to speak of. 

    Because of racist assumptions that all people from Morocco will simply step off a plane in the UK, and instantly go into hiding and never go home again, criteria have been set up to ensure that only wealthy Moroccans can come to visit WEALTHY Moroccans within the UK.

    This is the same for a lot of 3rd world countries. 

    When you speak about this whole 'criteria' and its 'fairness' you are imagining that everybody intends to immigrate, and not that foreign people might also just want a holiday in the UK.

    That's what I am picking up on this thread, that when we think of travel restrictions and closed borders, we are only 'fairly' avoiding all the non-natives from coming here, stealing space, jobs, money, and fears of overcrowding. 

    You also only qualified your original statement of 'I don't want criminals', to include other things, once I pointed out that criminal behaviour wasn't all that was being used.

    I thought Helaine expressed a perfectly decent concern. Nothing in her (his? I don't know) post showed ignorance of absurdist's previous post. I don't know why you would act incredulous that Helaine might respond that way.

    This seems like a dismissive attempt to brand any practical objections to such idealism as heartless and not coming from a place of genuine concern.

    When it comes to floods of people migrating with vastly different values, beliefs, and levels of education, this can cause some serious problems. Seems to me Britain is having a hard enough time already integrating its migrants in with the rest of society. Now does not seem the time to throw open the gates.


    Migration?  save our country from their values, beliefs and....levels of education?

    Throw open the gates? 

    So much is underpinning the words you have chosen to work with here.

    It may seem dismissive, but honestly I have been having these same arguments for about 11 years now. Enough time to start to recognise specific types of of responses, and how they will pan out in terms of constructive use of time, or not.  Yes, seems rude.  But then to me, so does that whole 'lock the gates, they are all criminals looking to overcrowd our island' thinking too.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #37 - March 07, 2016, 02:21 PM

    I included a number of examples with unethical immigration laws.

    In many developed countries, migrants DO have full rights. It depends on what you mean by "full rights" though. Citizen rights? No, because usually that requires 5-10 years of stay with clean track record before you're accepted as a citizen.

    I mean, open-border as a solution to regulated immigration (because the regulation isn't perfect!) seems to be... Screw the government, screw the police because they don't work 100% well. I gave you a list of the usual (more ethical) requirements for immigration, and they do seem fair, don't they? Or do you dislike any kind of government/rules?

    In my experience, there are reasons why some culture don't succeed. Some practices don't belong in the modern world, or at least in the host country immigrants try to come to. If the host country does not want to tolerate "bullshit" cultural baggage, then it's their right, no? Or must they muster patience and energy to accommodate such "bullshit"?

    That's probably what would happen... Exactly why I think communism wouldn't work :\


     Cheesy Cheesy

    Support of open borders = poor country follows = communism? 

    I'm done. 

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #38 - March 07, 2016, 02:57 PM

    To build on what Berbs is saying, what I'm picking up on in this thread is a lot of privilege and people being unaware of the realities of immigration laws, because they're so blind to real life experiences of people who fall through the gaps, never mind that immigration laws have been getting tougher and tougher. What I'm also picking up on is people being convinced their culture is superior and therefore they want to protect it. Fuck this xenophobic bullshit. And fuck this "dialogue". No one is obligated to engage in any dialogue, nor is anyone obligated to respect anyone else's views. Given we're on an ex-Muslim forum, I assume we're pretty aware of that.

    PS: There's a reason I only responded to Berbs in this thread.
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #39 - March 07, 2016, 03:13 PM

    Is immigration and econimic migration the only travel things that have criteria and conditions attached to them?  NO.  Please stop talking as if permanent settlement is the only thing that borders prevents.  

    I have family in Morocco who could never ever come to see me for a 2 week holiday over here because they can't meet the conditions set for it, I also cannot meet the conditions, I do not have a large sum of money in my bank out, or a job in which I make over a certain amount of money per year.  As a visiting lecturer I am on a zero hours contract, so I do not have a yearly wage to speak of.  


    What universal criteria or conditions should UK introduce, to both prevent abuses such as economic migration and in the same time allow good intention people(and without money) like your relatives to visit you?

    Because of racist assumptions that all people from Morocco will simply step off a plane in the UK, and instantly go into hiding and never go home again, criteria have been set up to ensure that only wealthy Moroccans can come to visit WEALTHY Moroccans within the UK.


    I understand it is an emotional topic for you, so I cannot believe that you are serious in believing that such criteria are in place because of racist assumptions that all people from Morocco...
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #40 - March 07, 2016, 04:52 PM

    what I'm picking up on in this thread is a lot of privilege and people being unaware of the realities of immigration laws, because they're so blind to real life experiences of people who fall through the gaps, never mind that immigration laws have been getting tougher and tougher. What I'm also picking up on is people being convinced their culture is superior and therefore they want to protect it. Fuck this xenophobic bullshit. And fuck this "dialogue". No one is obligated to engage in any dialogue, nor is anyone obligated to respect anyone else's views.

    This.

  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #41 - March 08, 2016, 02:24 AM

    Is immigration and econimic migration the only travel things that have criteria and conditions attached to them?  NO.  Please stop talking as if permanent settlement is the only thing that borders prevents.

    I have family in Morocco who could never ever come to see me for a 2 week holiday over here because they can't meet the conditions set for it, I also cannot meet the conditions, I do not have a large sum of money in my bank out, or a job in which I make over a certain amount of money per year.  As a visiting lecturer I am on a zero hours contract, so I do not have a yearly wage to speak of. 

    Because of racist assumptions that all people from Morocco will simply step off a plane in the UK, and instantly go into hiding and never go home again, criteria have been set up to ensure that only wealthy Moroccans can come to visit WEALTHY Moroccans within the UK.


    That is the condition they set because they don't want immigrants family to get in from that route. Apparently many immigrants came from "family visit". Currently there are many, many immigratns looking to immigrate to Europe. Is it racist assumptions when it really happens?

    Do you have a better solution? Or just... screw the law?

    Quote
    This is the same for a lot of 3rd world countries.

    When you speak about this whole 'criteria' and its 'fairness' you are imagining that everybody intends to immigrate, and not that foreign people might also just want a holiday in the UK.


    How is a holiday a right though...?  mysmilie_977

    I just.... My friend was denied for study visa to US, even though he really wanted to go... I was denied Australian visa for visiting... I mean, if I can't visit a country then I would just assume the qualifications are higher than what I could give, so I don't go there. I don't get it. Many people can't afford to have holiday in South Korea, I couldn't either, I don't see that as a right. I have many relatives everywhere, big family and all that. Can't afford to visit them, can't get visa, I'm fine with that :\

    Seriously?

    Quote
    That's what I am picking up on this thread, that when we think of travel restrictions and closed borders, we are only 'fairly' avoiding all the non-natives from coming here, stealing space, jobs, money, and fears of overcrowding.

    You also only qualified your original statement of 'I don't want criminals', to include other things, once I pointed out that criminal behaviour wasn't all that was being used.


    Honestly, I don't get it. Fears of overcrowding and unemployment is legit. When I was in South Korea, I also had trouble getting employed because of the Korean laws that state minimum Korean worker a company had to have before employing foreign workers. I don't see that as xenophobia, I see that as "Korean government wants to take care of unemployed Korean citizens". I am not their responsibility. I, or my parents didn't help shape their country. I should have less input because I have less knowledge of how their country works, and how they were able to succeed. There is very large possibility that my input would be damaging, and culturally insensitive.

    Many, many asian cities are so overcrowded that I understand some western countries are afraid of becoming like that. I am used to tiny apartments, but if some other culture would rather have bigger ones then it's their rights. Streets in Hongkong are so full of people you can't walk fast without bumping into someone. I would scream if I had to live like that forever. I thought I know life in overcrowded cities, but man.

    Quote
    Migration?  save our country from their values, beliefs and....levels of education?


    How is other country responsible for other countries' citizens level of education?Huh? Or unemployment, for that matter.

    I don't get it. My government (Ind) spectacularly fails on governing. It's unfortunate, but I don't see how other countries need to bear the burden of our faults?Huh?

    Quote
    'lock the gates, they are all criminals looking to overcrowd our island'


    That's a projection there. Nobody suggests to lock the gates. Doesn't mean integration issues don't exist.

    Quote
    To build on what Berbs is saying, what I'm picking up on in this thread is a lot of privilege and people being unaware of the realities of immigration laws, because they're so blind to real life experiences of people who fall through the gaps, never mind that immigration laws have been getting tougher and tougher. What I'm also picking up on is people being convinced their culture is superior and therefore they want to protect it. Fuck this xenophobic bullshit. And fuck this "dialogue". No one is obligated to engage in any dialogue, nor is anyone obligated to respect anyone else's views. Given we're on an ex-Muslim forum, I assume we're pretty aware of that.

    PS: There's a reason I only responded to Berbs in this thread.


    It's kind of funny. There is no need for dialogue, and most people do not want open border anyway. The further you go, the more conservative people are. Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Indonesian, Singaporean, Malaysian, are all conservative and there's no way they'd ever want open border. Thus your imagination remains a fantasy. People who don't agree with you, have bullshit views. Fuck open dialogue.... Nobody is obligated to respect anyone's views, including yours and mine.

    There are people who fall through the gaps on any system. The solution? Scrap the rules! Scrap the laws - no need for laws! Yes, great solution.

    Yes, immigration laws have gotten tougher and tougher. Though I do consider staying in somebody else's country is a privilege, not a right.  Cheesy Also, the laws get tougher not only on western nations, it's also on poorer countries. I know Indonesian laws already put ~almost!~ the maximum restriction they can to bar foreigners and make it uncomfortable for them to live.  Cheesy

    Their culture is superior? Whose culture? I mean it's quite undeniable that Indonesian culture has worse work ethic than Korean one. You don't want to admit that? When I went to Korea, it's quite easy to see why their country can produce something great.

    I hate it when people say all culture are equal. Well if that was the case then I didn't need to immigrate in the first place.   Cheesy Cheesy

    Such xenophobic bullshit!  Cheesy

    Quote
    Support of open borders = poor country follows = communism?

    I'm done. 


    Maryam Namazie is a communist though.

    What I'm picking up from this thread is, people want quick-fix of what is considered a problem, and assume that mass immigration will always be net-positive. Integration issues don't exist, it's all in education, and the host country will have some magical solution for all the immigrants. UK doesn't have integration issues. With education, the immigrants will magically support liberalism, not be racist against other races, immigrants also will all be law-abiding citizens let's forget Hizbut Tahrir, everybody will support feminism and gay rights, everyone will magically forget their (bigoted) cultural practices back home, everything will be under control.

    The high stake of such loss is that now you will ruin the host country, and nothing really changes. +1 for more poor country.
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #42 - March 08, 2016, 04:53 AM

    People are arguing for abolishing immigration laws merely pointing out a lot of the laws, regulation and policy are easier if you are rich and educated. A friend of mine family's business was sold to a Chinese citizen. This citizen's only purpose in doing so was that owning and operating a Canadian company was a fast ticket to citizenship. He has no use for a paving company when he owns a construction company in China. All he does is sign the checks. He has no involvement in management, accounting, surveying or individual jobs. Once he has citizenship he will dump the paving company in order to bring over parts of his construction company restricted to China as a Canadian citizen which is easier than than being a foreigner. For an individual that does not have the wealth they have to do through job permits, housing policy and other social programs each with it's own red tape. The old adage of "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" is dead. Now its "Give us your wealthy, your educated and middle-class. We have our own poor to worry about" People act as if many immigration systems are the former when in reality it's PR to cover up the latter
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #43 - March 08, 2016, 09:43 AM

    To build on what Berbs is saying, what I'm picking up on in this thread is a lot of privilege and people being unaware of the realities of immigration laws, because they're so blind to real life experiences of people who fall through the gaps, never mind that immigration laws have been getting tougher and tougher. What I'm also picking up on is people being convinced their culture is superior and therefore they want to protect it. Fuck this xenophobic bullshit. And fuck this "dialogue". No one is obligated to engage in any dialogue, nor is anyone obligated to respect anyone else's views. Given we're on an ex-Muslim forum, I assume we're pretty aware of that.

    PS: There's a reason I only responded to Berbs in this thread.


    What, cultural xenophobia bullshit?  Another dismissive attempt now branding those who are not cultural relativists or have rational and legitimate reasons to fear some culture/religion like Islam as xenophobes.

    If someone is fearing Islam and Islamic culture, he is a xenophobe? Sorry but there are rational and legitimate reasons to fear Islam, because producing and inspiring fear is what Islam is doing best. It is made for doing exactly this. It's so much ignorance from your side, it's as you are closing your eyes at what is written on this forum, particularly in Introduction and Advice sections, it's as you don't know what Islam is. Not to say there is also a good dose of hypocrisy from your side.

    And fuck cultural relativism, I'm not a cultural relativist and I have every reason not to be. Yes I do believe Western culture is superior, as facts speak for themselves, it's so obvious that I don't even need to explain this.
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #44 - March 08, 2016, 10:31 AM

    Well It appears that the opinions expressed here  seem to have gone far away from what has been discussed in that conversation of Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris and ended up in anger, laughing and crying... well that is not really useful.. We can agree to disagree yet win over the over people who are against the views of your own...

    I think these talkative debates are often useless  unless they are put in to words and printed.  I say a forum debate is far more useful than these chit-chats.

    So l let us begin again with subject by subject...  let is start with that Sam Harris "Profiling". It started in 2012  with an  article and a picture  from him



    let me put a bit of that article and you guys read rest of it..

    Quote
    In Defense of Profiling_Terrorism Sam Harris

    Much has been written about how insulting and depressing it is, more than a decade after the events of 9/11, to be met by “security theater” at our nation’s airports. The current system appears so inane that one hopes it really is a sham, concealing more-ingenious intrusions into our privacy. The spirit of political correctness hangs over the whole enterprise like the Angel of Death—indeed, more closely than death, or than the actual fear of terrorism. And political correctness requires that TSA employees direct the spotlight of their attention at random—or appear to do so—while making rote use of irrational procedures and dubious technology.

    Quote
    Although I don’t think I look like a jihadi, or like a man pretending not to be one, I do not mean to suggest that a person like me should be exempt from scrutiny. But other travelers fit the profile far less than I do. One glance at these innocents reveals that they are no more likely to be terrorists than walruses in disguise. I make it a point to notice such people while queuing for security at the airport, just to see what sort of treatment they receive at the hands of the TSA.


    .....While leaving JFK last week, I found myself standing in line behind an elderly couple who couldn’t have been less threatening had they been already dead and boarding in their coffins. I would have bet my life that they were not waging jihad. Both appeared to be in their mid-eighties and infirm. The woman rode in a wheelchair attended by an airport employee as her husband struggled to comply with TSA regulations—removing various items from their luggage, arranging them in separate bins, and loading the bins and bags onto the conveyor belt bound for x-ray.

    After much preparation, the couple proceeded toward the body scanner, only to encounter resistance. It seems that they had neglected to take off their shoes. A pair of TSA screeners stepped forward to prevent this dangerous breach of security—removing what appeared to be orthopedic footwear from both the woman in the wheelchair and the man now staggering at her side. This imposed obvious stress on two harmless and bewildered people and caused considerable delay for everyone in my line. I turned to see if anyone else was amazed by such a perversion of vigilance. The man behind me, who could have played the villain in a Bollywood film, looked unconcerned.

    I have noticed such incongruities before. In fact, my wife and I once accidentally used a bag for carry-on in which I had once stored a handgun—and passed through three airport checkpoints with nearly 75 rounds of 9 mm ammunition. While we were inadvertently smuggling bullets, one TSA screener had the presence of mind to escort a terrified three-year-old away from her parents so that he could remove her sandals (sandals!). Presumably, a scanner that had just missed 2.5 pounds of ammunition would determine whether these objects were the most clever bombs ever wrought. Needless to say, a glance at the girl’s family was all one needed to know that they hadn’t rigged her to explode. (The infuriating scene played out very much like this one.)....


    So that is how it started..PLEASE READ THE REST AT THE LINK..  because it is unfair to comment without reading/ without listening all of that what he said/she said..

    So that is how profiling business started from Sam Harris..   Talking about profiling  last month  news says

    Somalia plane bomber planned to down Turkish flight with his ‘laptop bomb’ – reports 9 Feb, 2016 03:11



    well that is the hole in the flight..   I wonder it is bomb or those lithium batteries??  well just kidding.. laptop battery can not make  a huge hole in the side of the plane .  Apparently that particular passenger boarded the aircraft on a Turkish Airlines boarding pass and was on the list for the Turkish Airlines manifest,” .........

    So be nice to others...  but don't be  politically correct...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #45 - March 08, 2016, 10:49 AM

    People are arguing for abolishing immigration laws merely pointing out a lot of the laws, regulation and policy are easier if you are rich and educated.


    You are assuming that the other party doesn't know that already. Of course everything is much easier if you're rich and educated. White people get jobs easier. etc, etc. I am aware of this shit.

    Quote
    For an individual that does not have the wealth they have to do through job permits, housing policy and other social programs each with it's own red tape.


    Without wealth you can't even afford the flight tickets, so should that be free now?

    Housing policy needs some deposit, wow such xenophobic bullshit. Everything is against being poor and uneducated. If you're an immigrant everything is harder. Yes. If you're poor everything in life is hard. Yes.

    Should we just make everything for free then? Fuck the laws, fuck inspections, fuck the red tapes.

    No changing the regulations, just don't have any rules instead.

    Anyway, the biggest counter-point to open border is integration issue. You live in democracy, so anytime the fascists tip the scale, your "freedom" is gone. The assumption that through "edukashion" people will grow up to be a secular liberal is a mere fantasy. I'm college educated and I'm pretty sure you won't consider me liberal (I'm liberal for an Indonesian). Good luck wading thorough 100's millions of actual conservatives, trying to integrate them to your society. My family has been in Indonesia for 3 generations and we're still separate from the natives.
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #46 - March 08, 2016, 11:04 AM

    ............... My family has been in Indonesia for 3 generations and we're still separate from the natives......

    hello Helaine., just curious on that statement.,  is that because of Indonesian religion?   or other factors??  three generations is good amount of time..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #47 - March 08, 2016, 11:10 AM

    Yeez, I just read your articles...

    Could you tell me what your intentions are? I mean, that happened in Turkey which is like 99.99% muslim, so profiling muslims.... wouldn't work.

    Either way, I don't think profiling works. It's just so easy for them to pretend, or they can just hire a white muslim to play the part. Bombing still happens regardless. Unless there's a secret signal for bombers that we can easily detect, I don't see how profiling would work.

    Quote
    hello Helaine., just curious on that statement.,  is that because of Indonesian religion?   or other factors??  three generations is good amount of time..


    Racial issue and religion. Most of my kind are either christians/atheists/buddhists.
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #48 - March 08, 2016, 11:24 AM

    Yeez, I just read your articles...

    Could you tell me what your intentions are?


     Cheesy Cheesy  Nooooooo., i will not air my intentions Helaine...  lol..

    Quote
    Either way, I don't think profiling works.  


    Oh I agree with you ., the profiling ., the way it is described/or understood  in Sam Harris chit-chat will not work., It will also not work the way it is done at   airports  THE AMRIKA  TSA  way
    Quote
    Transportation Security Administration (TSA) is an agency of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security that has authority over the security of the traveling public in the United States.

      that will also not work.. except they spend  gillions  of their dollars worthless employees

    see these links

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    American Administration is FILLED WITH FOOLS that have no work...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #49 - March 08, 2016, 01:40 PM

    Well It appears that the opinions expressed here  seem to have gone far away from what has been discussed in that conversation of Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris and ended up in anger, laughing and crying... well that is not really useful.. We can agree to disagree yet win over the over people who are against the views of your own...


    Just finished listening to Maryam and Sam conversation. It's a dialogue between emotions and logics.

    Maryam is almost solely driven by emotions, no much logic, and she is keep brushing away the inconvenient questions by either avoiding responding to those questions or deviating the discussion to socialist humanitarian ideals. She was quite evasive to be honest.

    Another thing is that you can see that Maryam is a communist for how many times she says "far right fascists".  Smiley . I won't recommend Maryam for politics, because in politics you need more logic than hart.

    Sam is more with logic and he is trying to lead the discussion to a rationale one but he wasn't successful at all.

    To be honest, for me it became quite boring after a while. 
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #50 - March 08, 2016, 04:51 PM

    ...................

    Another thing is that you can see that Maryam is (was)a communist for how many times she says "far right fascists".  Smiley . I won't recommend Maryam for politics, because in politics you need more logic than hart.

    Sam is more with logic and he is trying to lead the discussion to a rationale one but he wasn't successful at all.

    To be honest, for me it became quite boring after a while.  

    well nbhb "you can not say that without putting relevant debate in words in your post.. Off course Sam think Sam Harris he has more logic than any any others whom he debated.,

    Can you ask dr. Sam Harris to look back in what he said and pick up something not right in it?? Or you do you think that is abolsutely right in every point  in his debate??    yes 2hrs is bit boring and you lose the track after some time and forget what actually they are saying., I wish some one could type all  that in word  and print a pdf file. 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #51 - March 08, 2016, 06:47 PM

    Well Sam Harris didn't say too much. I thought it was more of a monologue than a dialogue.

    About profiling, to be honest I don't understand why it is such a big topic, for Sam included. Sam looks reasonable to me. We want security at no cost. Well, I don't see how can we get this without costs. Sam pointed out very well that Muslims are profiled even when security go to mosques and ask Imams for signs of radicalisation. They don't go to churches.  Unfortunately we've got here, it's bad for Muslims,it is bad for everybody but it is what it is.

    In the end I think even Maryam has retracted her accusations of bigotism.

    About open borders my position is very clear. Western values are universal is not something that white European are keeping for themselves as Maryam tried to imply at one moment. East Asia has imported these values and has succeeded.  Islamic world should to the same. This is the way, not open borders.

    So in the end, I agree with Sam Harris in this debate. With all I can remember, because it was very hard to remain fully focused.

    And I remember that Maryam said she is a communist at the beginning, not that she was. I have no problem with this anyway, on the contrary I can understand why.
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #52 - March 10, 2016, 01:37 AM

    Well Sam Harris didn't say too much. I thought it was more of a monologue than a dialogue.


    you didn't answer my question nbhb.,  let me paste it from that post

     Can you   look back in to  what he said and pick up something that is  not right in it??

    or  do you think whatever he said  is absolutely right nothing but right in every point  in his debate/s??  

    So try to answer those questions
    Quote
    About profiling, to be honest I don't understand why it is such a big topic, for Sam included. Sam looks reasonable to me. We want security at no cost. Well, I don't see how can we get this without costs. Sam pointed out very well that Muslims are profiled even when security go to mosques and ask Imams for signs of radicalisation. They don't go to churches.  Unfortunately we've got here, it's bad for Muslims,it is bad for everybody but it is what it is.

    Sam and others are using WRONG WORDS nbhb., They can not use the word "Profile Muslim folks" because of their names/looks/language/or country of origin.,  What they could do say is Profile individuals and some Islamic groups or Christian/Jewish/hindu/Buddhist  etc.. groups that use terror for their political needs..

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    In the end I think even Maryam has retracted her accusations of bigotism.

    that is because criticizing Islam by  people like Maryam Namazie is like walking on double edges sword., it doesn't matter which side you walk it will hurt you..

    Quote
    About open borders my position is very clear. Western values are universal is not something that white European are keeping for themselves as Maryam tried to imply at one moment. East Asia has imported these values and has succeeded.  Islamic world should to the same. This is the way, not open borders.


    Open borders across all nations is simply not possible at the present time ., but is that thing?

    Tell me about western values and their origins., and ...and where did Namazie try to imply that "Europeans keeping those values(whatever they may be) to themselves?., Values means social structure what I can safely is there is a Hypocrisy in western politics/politicians  and the way they do business with so-called Islamic countries and with those so-called 2nd world /3rd world countries
    Quote
    And I remember that Maryam said she is a communist   at the beginning, not that she was. I have no problem with this anyway, on the contrary I can understand why.

    I don't think so but that is irrelevant

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #53 - March 10, 2016, 11:17 AM

    Can you ask dr. Sam Harris to look back in what he said and pick up something not right in it??

    Or you do you think that is abolsutely right in every point  in his debate??  

    Absolutely right...? Do you think I remember everything he said? Be free to point out where do you think he is wrong, to check again...

    Sam and others are using WRONG WORDS nbhb., They can not use the word "Profile Muslim folks" because of their names/looks/language/or country of origin.,  What they could do say is Profile individuals and some Islamic groups or Christian/Jewish/hindu/Buddhist  etc.. groups that use terror for their political needs..

    About profiling in security context: We do this all the time. On individuals and sometimes on all communities. As I explained already, you don't go to church to find jihadis. It doesn't mean, I want to legislate profiling communities or such things. Absolutely not...

    How is Sam and others using WRONG WORDS yeeze? Relating to profiling in airport, Sam is not saying that when a plane lands in USA, all people with muslim names or people from X country should be put aside for additional checking. I thought Sam was speaking about individuals in this particular case. 

    Open borders across all nations is simply not possible at the present time ., but is that thing?

    Tell me about western values and their origins., and ...and where did Namazie try to imply that "Europeans keeping those values(whatever they may be) to themselves?., Values means social structure what I can safely is there is a Hypocrisy in western politics/politicians  and the way they do business with so-called Islamic countries and with those so-called 2nd world /3rd world countries


    Please check from 1.27.05 and in particular at 1.32.55 and 1.36.20. You tell me what she is trying to imply?

    Maryam want "secularism everywhere". Then the solution is too promote secularism in Islamic countries not open borders. When you open the borders, you will not receive only seculars, liberals, etc. The main reasons people are coming are economic reasons, everybody knows that. And you will end up with a lot of conservatives which will never adopt secular, western values because they hate those values. She is seeing all this "just for a humane perspective". I'm quoting her exactly.

    What the hypocrisy of western politicians has to do with western values?

    I don't think so but that is irrelevant


    It is not irrelevant because at the beginning of discussion she was accusing Douglas Murray and Sam Harris of bigotism by association with far right. Because they have sometimes the same discourse. By using her logic, being a communist she can be associate with Stalin and his crimes and all bad ideas that communism has. That's double standards from her side. We had this type of dialogue in the other thread as well. People like Douglas Murray and Sam Harris knows very well the problem is Islam and not the muslims. They are rational people who understood very well where the problem lies.
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #54 - March 10, 2016, 12:38 PM

    good....good...
    Absolutely right...? Do you think I remember everything he said? Be free to point out where do you think he is wrong, to check again...
    About profiling in security context: We do this all the time. On individuals and sometimes on all communities. As I explained already, you don't go to church to find jihadis. It doesn't mean, I want to legislate profiling communities or such things. Absolutely not...

    How is Sam and others using WRONG WORDS yeeze? Relating to profiling in airport, Sam is not saying that when a plane lands in USA, all people with muslim names or people from X country should be put aside for additional checking. I thought Sam was speaking about individuals in this particular case.  

    Please check from 1.27.05 and in particular at 1.32.55 and 1.36.20. You tell me what she is trying to imply?

    Maryam want "secularism everywhere". Then the solution is too promote secularism in Islamic countries not open borders. When you open the borders, you will not receive only seculars, liberals, etc. The main reasons people are coming are economic reasons, everybody knows that. And you will end up with a lot of conservatives which will never adopt secular, western values because they hate those values. She is seeing all this "just for a humane perspective". I'm quoting her exactly.

    What the hypocrisy of western politicians has to do with western values?

    It is not irrelevant because at the beginning of discussion she was accusing Douglas Murray and Sam Harris of bigotism by association with far right. Because they have sometimes the same discourse. By using her logic, being a communist she can be associate with Stalin and his crimes and all bad ideas that communism has. That's double standards from her side. We had this type of dialogue in the other thread as well.
    People like Douglas Murray and Sam Harris knows very well the problem is Islam and not the muslims. They are rational people who understood very well where the problem lies.

    I will respond to all that you said and is hidden but those highlighted words of yours....,   Don't you think Maryam Namazie SAYS  EXACTLY   SAME THING as what  Douglas Murray or  Sam Harris or any other people who have phobia about Islam say/said??   and that is  " the problem is Islam and not the muslims".......   So there is some common ground between these folks..

    Hmm let me go through  this news.. first., interesting., that is from today...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #55 - March 10, 2016, 01:18 PM

    I will respond to all that you said and is hidden but those highlighted words of yours....,   Don't you think Maryam Namazie SAYS  EXACTLY   SAME THING as what  Douglas Murray or  Sam Harris or any other people who have phobia about Islam say/said??   and that is  " the problem is Islam and not the muslims".......   So there is some common ground between these folks..


    I know Maryam says exactly the same things, what I don't understand is why she has accused Douglas Murray or  Sam Harris of bigotry, in the first place. Okay, both Sam Harris and Douglas Murray may have once said some stupid or irrational things(like Sam's opinion about nuking in advance....), but they are still rational people who know where the problem is. Anyways in the end Maryam admitted that they are not, so no big issue.
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #56 - March 10, 2016, 04:21 PM

    You are assuming that the other party doesn't know that already. Of course everything is much easier if you're rich and educated. White people get jobs easier. etc, etc. I am aware of this shit.

    Without wealth you can't even afford the flight tickets, so should that be free now?

    Housing policy needs some deposit, wow such xenophobic bullshit. Everything is against being poor and uneducated. If you're an immigrant everything is harder. Yes. If you're poor everything in life is hard. Yes.

    Should we just make everything for free then? Fuck the laws, fuck inspections, fuck the red tapes.

    No changing the regulations, just don't have any rules instead.

    Anyway, the biggest counter-point to open border is integration issue. You live in democracy, so anytime the fascists tip the scale, your "freedom" is gone. The assumption that through "edukashion" people will grow up to be a secular liberal is a mere fantasy. I'm college educated and I'm pretty sure you won't consider me liberal (I'm liberal for an Indonesian). Good luck wading thorough 100's millions of actual conservatives, trying to integrate them to your society. My family has been in Indonesia for 3 generations and we're still separate from the natives.


    It is hard to response to hyperbole and conclusions I never made.
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #57 - March 10, 2016, 07:27 PM

    I know Maryam says exactly the same things, what I don't understand is why she has accused Douglas Murray or  Sam Harris of bigotry, in the first place.

    well may be  Douglas Murray or  Sam Harris are confused ISLAM WITH MUSLIMS ., two are different things and that is probably what Maryam was trying to say., Maraym is some one, wherever she speaks she speaks loud.., and that is always a problem with her and Islam lovers as well as with Islam haters .

    Quote
    Okay, both Sam Harris and Douglas Murray may have once said some stupid or irrational things(like Sam's opinion about nuking in advance....), but they are still rational people who know where the problem is. Anyways in the end Maryam admitted that they are not, so no big issue.  


    really??   did they say some stupid or irrational things?? well then tell them not to say and not to write  such stuff dear nbhb..  I was under the impression that Maraym is politically smart  but she is not ., Other wise she would have written a booklet along with Sam Harris like that Majid Nawaz., or at least  get some support to her organization that is "saving apostates of Islam from oppressed regimes.,"   Well some time times we forget our goals and aims.

    I tell you this.,  these podcasts  or even TV debates are not really useful.,  unless  these pod casters look back and read what they said and explain in detail in a written statements..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • A Conversation with Maryam Namazie and Sam Harris
     Reply #58 - March 10, 2016, 08:30 PM

    Yes she is very good at what she does now. And she's a brave woman.
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